View Full Version : ZI: When Leica fans attack...
Am I the only person astounded by the amount of disinformation being spouted about the upcoming Zeiss Ikon camera? I can't see myself buying one, but was enthusiastic about Zeiss coming up with a new rangefinder design. Then I started hearing all these stories about the camera being a 'rebadged Bessa'. I thought the people generating those stories maybe had inside information; of course they didn't, they were merely making suppositions.
More recently, on Pnet, some people have alleged that Stephen Gandy's observations that the Bessa and ZI had no common parts bar the shutter, are wrong - or that one can't rely on Gandy because he has "vested interests."
Will all these attacks kill off the ZI? Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?
Roger Hicks
05-13-2005, 08:00
Who starts them? People with nothing better to do. I've handled three (non-working) prototypes and shot a couple of frames with each of the Japanese-made lenses (at photokina -- nothing worth posting). I have or have had most of the Bessas and the ZI is very different except, indeed, for the shutter module of the 2A/3A. Delivery is taking longer than everyone hoped, but that happens sometimes --and I know that Zeiss is doing a good deal more than just lending their name. But I can't say anything useful or authoritative beyond that until I have the camera in my hands. Most of the rumour-mongers can't even say as much that's worth hearing.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
Sour grapes because Zeiss is going to survive in tact beyond 2005 and Leica very well may not.
Wait to hear comments about the Zeiss products from users once they are available, and based on actual experience. My guess is that 90% of the comments made online are from people who have never seen or handled these products.
Bertram2
05-13-2005, 09:01
Will all these attacks kill off the ZI? Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?
No Paul, these hate attacks will kill nothing excepted maybe some of those who started them, could be they simply burst from their extreme blood pressure. :D
I read this crap too "rebadged cossies" was one of the things they said about the lenses and a lot more of such a derisive nonsense. That's just the style of play many members prefer at Pnet.
To understand where this "loaded " style of communication comes from you must remember that there are some who spent their very last penny and a bit more on Leica gear just not only to own the "best" stuff , no, more important to own the "right stuff" !
"Right" means in this context making them belong to the (in their own opinion)
right group of people. In other words these cameras are an important part of their social status.
Taking photographs with that gear does not play a role at all as I had to learn. I've seen results of this kind of folks which are so poorely done and so badly scanned that one cannot believe that somebody really dares to post such a crap in a public gallery.
How come ? The pics are just to prove he still owns the tool and keeps it running.
As we all know people are very sensitive if their (presumed) social status seems to get damnaged. The ZI line could have the potential to perform on par with Leica , without any restriction, for less money.
That would mean they do NOT own the best or the right tool anymore , imagine what a damnage that is for those bed-wetting stuffed shirts. :bang:
This is where that hate comes from, which makes them throw dirt on a product before they have seen it or tried it out personally.
Recently I read: "The Critique says more about the Critic than about the item it aimes to". True indeed, you just have to read carefully to hear that howling sound of pain behind the words. Enjoy it ! :D
Best,
Bertram
More recently, on Pnet, some people have alleged that Stephen Gandy's observations that the Bessa and ZI had no common parts bar the shutter, are wrong - or that one can't rely on Gandy because he has "vested interests."
I believe the US distributor for Hasselblad will be handling distribution of the new Zeiss Ikon range finder. I can't really see how Stephen Gandy will have a vested interest, as deals mainly in Voigtlander / Cosina glass.
As for me, I'll wait for actual owners to report in on the new camera. That always seems to be the best source for info.
I don't understand all of the naysayers especially since the new ZI products have only just been introduced, and most of us have not laid eyes on any of them. Many of the negatively opinionated posters also criticize Leica for producing lenses and camera bodies with attributes different from '50s era products. I guess that buying a Leica (and having an internet connection) makes one an expert; or at the very least demanding of our attention. I love my Leicas, but I am not gear queer enough to ignore the wonderful results garnered with other makes of equipment.
Roger Hicks
05-13-2005, 10:18
Dear vol72
Gear queer-- what a wonderful phrase.
And Bertram2: also extremely perceptive.
Cheers,
Roger
Bertram, so eloquently put!
Huck Finn
05-13-2005, 10:46
Paul, join us at the gathering in New York on June 28 & meet some real RF fans who don't shout at each other, who are open to others' opinions & information, and who actually like each other & get along. :)
Huck
Sour grapes because Zeiss is going to survive in tact beyond 2005 and Leica very well may not.
It's interesting to me that for decades Zeiss has focussed on manufacturing lenses and has only just introduced a Zeiss-branded camera body. The lenses are second to none in the world, in both still photography and cinematography. They continue to introduce entire new series of lenses for motion picture use, both for film systems and digital systems. I'm very excited for the new system.
Perhaps Leica could survive if they concentrated on what they do best, making lenses, and partner with other companies like Zeiss has with Hasselblad, Contax (R.I.P.) and Arri who make camera bodies. At least in the film world, lens mounts are interchangable and you can use Zeiss lenses on an Arri, Moviecam, or Panavision body with little hassle.
Am I wrong in thinking that Contax and Zeiss were originally the same company prior to Kyocera resurrecting the name? I'm a bit fuzzy on my history here.
The bottom line is its the person 'this' side of the vewfinder is more important than the thing that goes 'click' or 'clack', 'clunk' or 'snick'. You've gotta see the picture first before pressing the shutter release. FED, Bessa or MP, it's only going to capture what it's being pointed at.
In a nut shell different cameras handle differently and everyone will have a preference, give the new ZI a chance and don't pre judge it on gossip from a few Leica Louts
Huck Finn
05-13-2005, 11:05
Am I wrong in thinking that Contax and Zeiss were originally the same company prior to Kyocera resurrecting the name? I'm a bit fuzzy on my history here.
Matthew, Carl Zeiss still owns the Contax name. The Contax G & its lenses was a partnership between Zeiss & Kyocera.
[Am I the only person astounded by the amount of disinformation being spouted about the upcoming Zeiss Ikon camera?]
It's par for the course. The internet is a wonderful thing, but afterall, anybody can register for a forum and make a post whether they have any idea what they are talking about or not. It shouldn't be suprising by now.
The internet is like a great petri dish for rumours.
You have to chuckle at some of those Leica fans sometimes. When the D2 and Panasonic LC-1 came out it just killed them that the Leica might not be better. And their post over on the Leica forum could be pretty funny. Sometimes they would just give up and admit "Well, I like the red dot on it".
The Contax G & its lenses was a partnership between Zeiss & Kyocera.
Ah. Thanks. I thought Kyocera bought the name outright.
nwcanonman
05-13-2005, 11:13
Rodger,
Thanks for the hands-on report of facts. Every thing else is merely rumor.
Well I'm certainly looking forward to trying a ZI when it arrives.
The long RF baselength +'better' vewfinder with 28 frame + my crap eyesight has gotta be worth a look. 28mm on an M .72 can be a pain.
Face it. There are "Brand-name Snobs" for whom only a few marques will suffice. All else is garbage and unworthy of cluttering up their B&W world.
This entire "Us vs Them" attitude reminds me of a wedding I took many years ago. At the Reception I was cornered by the Bride's mother who, in a superior tone, informed me that the Bride's brother had studied with Ansel Adams and had a full compliment of Nikon cameras and lenses. I asked if he was at the wedding and she said that he was. I then asked why I was being paid to photograph the wedding when a family member of such impressive credentials was available. She fairly snapped back that "He doesn't know how!"...... and quickly left me to continue doing the job I was hired to do. It wasn't my intention to anger her but the snotty attitude she had as she name-dropped kind of p!$$ed me off.
Most equipment is capable of giving good results without regard for the name on the badge. If I could afford one of the new Zeiss cameras, I'd buy one and it could share shelf space with my old Leicas, Olympus', Prakticas, Exaktas etc. If I could fit one of my old Vivtar or Soligor lenses to the new Zeiss, I'd do that too! :D
Walker
Huck Finn
05-13-2005, 11:30
I came across an interesting statement about the Zeiss Ikon in the B&H catalogue that arrived in yesterday's mail. Among its features, the catalogue description lists:
"Metal body for mechanical and thermal long-term stability"
Does anyone have any idea what this means? I certainly understand the reference to mechanical stability, but I've never seen "thermal stability" referenced in descibing a camera body. I haven't come across this description in any of the Zeiss, Hasselblad, or Cosina literature about the ZI. Do all metal bodies inherently have "thermal stability"? Is this something unique to this camera? I would think not, but I don't think that I've ever come across this description of a camera body before in a B&H catalogue.
Per Huck's post, my understanding is that there was/is a Carl Zeiss foundation, not a company (not sure about how German corporate law works) that once had (perhaps still does) under its umbrella a lens/optics company, Carl Zeiss, & a separate camera company, Zeiss Ikon. Although CZ & ZI were both part of the Zeiss Foundation, CZ made lenses for all sorts of camera manufacturers, many of whom had no connection w/the Zeiss Foundation (still true today) & treated ZI as just another customer. ZI was the company that used the Contax, Contaflex, Contarex, etc. brands on its cameras. When ZI died in the 1970s, the Zeiss Foundation still had ownership of all the ZI names, including Contax, & subsequently licensed "Contax" to Yashica/Kyocera for use on the revived Contax cameras. What appears to be happening now is that CZ is using the ZI name for new cameras made by Cosina, probably because Kyocera was still using the Contax name when the decision was made to create the new ZI RF's. Now that Kyocera has abandoned the Contax camera line, CZ can always use it on new cameras, including the new ZI line. That would make historical sense, since ZI was the name of the camera company, not a certain RF camera model, but the marketing/hyping of the ZI brand may have advanced too far for that to happen anytime soon.
Am I wrong in thinking that Contax and Zeiss were originally the same company prior to Kyocera resurrecting the name? I'm a bit fuzzy on my history here.
Roger Hicks
05-13-2005, 11:41
Dear Doubs43,
Wonderful story!
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com -- and your story explains why there are so few wedding shots on the site...)
Gabriel M.A.
05-13-2005, 11:57
Face it. There are "Brand-name Snobs" for whom only a few marques will suffice. All else is garbage and unworthy of cluttering up their B&W world.
<snip>
Most equipment is capable of giving good results without regard for the name on the badge. If I could afford one of the new Zeiss cameras, I'd buy one and it could share shelf space with my old Leicas, Olympus', Prakticas, Exaktas etc. If I could fit one of my old Vivtar or Soligor lenses to the new Zeiss, I'd do that too! :D
Well said. One thing is to know what a certain brand and make is known for, what its good points and shortcomings are. I get so sick and tired of the Nikon/Canon debate, and the Leica/NonLeica debate. I own both Canon and Nikon gear, but mostly Canon because I am more comfortable and have invested more in Canon gear, and of course I have a Leica M6 for technical and sentimental reasons. I may have as well bought a Bessa R2a or R3a, but I could not escape the lure of the M6. I am still considering a Bessa R2a, btw.
Many people tend to side with "camps". It's the whole Sports mentality of "This" Team vs. the "Other" Team, which is more rampant in some parts of the World than others, I might add.
I think that those who are not "Leica owners" who "bash nonLeica equipment" and are most shocked by it, tend to fall into the same line of thinking and in turn categorize Leica owners as snobs. I don't know if I'm a snob, but I really don't care what brand my camera is; I care what quality I can expect my pictures to be when I take them with it. I like to know its limitations and its strengths. Be it a lowly Kodak Instamatik or a Lubitel or a Hasselblad Xpan II, they all have their applications. Piting one camp against the other is pointless. They're all cameras. The artist has his/her work cut out knowing how to use his/her tool of choice.
Granted, Leica has had decades of following; it's a cult. It's one of the most expensive and expansive cults in photography, so of course you're going to find some snobs who are louder than most. The rest of us don't like them either.
Now that Kyocera has abandoned the Contax camera line, CZ can always use it on new cameras, including the new ZI line. That would make historical sense, since ZI was the name of the camera company, not a certain RF camera model, but the marketing/hyping of the ZI brand may have advanced too far for that to happen anytime soon.
Can they just do that? BrcauseI thought that would be like the trademark already belong to Kyocera and if they want to use the Contax name don't they have to buy it back or something? Anyhoo I dunno how this works. But I just think it is weird you mentioned that kyocera just discontinued Contax but another company can just freely use the name.
nwcanonman
05-13-2005, 12:47
Huck,
The material that comes to mind for "thermal stability" would be carbon fiber. It's used in everything from fishing rods to High-Buck aircraft.
Just a thought.
aoresteen
05-13-2005, 12:56
I was one of the persons in the p.net thead that was called a "non-discrmintating consumer" because I stated that the CV 35mm PII lens was as well built as my Leica 90mm f/2.8 Tele-Elmarit (it is). I was also told that just because I said it was didn't make it so, yet the same person claimed that the Leica lens was built better because he said so. Fine logic!
Technicaly Zeiss partnered with Yashica who was latter aquired by Kyocera. The agreement transfered to Kyocera.
Zeiss also partnered with Pentax in the late 60's & early 70's. Zeiss designed the Pantax K mount.
As to how welll the ZI body will do, we need to wait and see. The first versions of the M3 had problems and Popular Photography sent their M3 sample back to Leitz and told them to make changes. So let's give Zeiss & Cosina a chance before we torpedo them.
BTY, I just ordered a CV 25mm SC lens in Contax/Nikon from Camera Quest to use on my Contax IIa. All the CS lenses have been discontinued so if you need a decent wide angle for your Contax II/III better get them now. At $369 plus shipping the 25mm is a bargain as it include a 25mm BL viewfinder.
wlewisiii
05-13-2005, 14:23
Zeiss also partnered with Pentax in the late 60's & early 70's. Zeiss designed the Pantax K mount.
Now that's interesting to know. Does this mean that there are CZ K-mount lenses out there?
BTY, I just ordered a CV 25mm SC lens in Contax/Nikon from Camera Quest to use on my Contax IIa. All the CS lenses have been discontinued so if you need a decent wide angle for your Contax II/III better get them now. At $369 plus shipping the 25mm is a bargain as it include a 25mm BL viewfinder.
If you're even half as happy with the 25 as I am with my 35SC, you'll be a very happy camper, indeed. It's a glorious lens on my Kievs and I look forward to using it on my III once I get it back. I wish I had the pennies to buy the whole set - plus the 50 and longer lenses to put on an S3 2000... :D
William
back alley
05-13-2005, 15:00
Paul, join us at the gathering in New York on June 28 & meet some real RF fans who don't shout at each other, who are open to others' opinions & information, and who actually like each other & get along. :)
Huck
no shouting?
i can't shout? at all? none?
joe
nwcanonman
05-13-2005, 15:09
Joe,
Well, you could try typiing in all CAPS!!!
Gabriel M.A.
05-13-2005, 15:14
no shouting?
i can't shout? at all? none?
Bewy bewy qweitly
back alley
05-13-2005, 15:19
not vewy much fun...
nwcanonman
05-13-2005, 15:21
Joe,
My EX found that putting a pillow over her face muted the sound ..... but then she wanted to hold the pillow. :eek:
back alley
05-13-2005, 15:35
you bad!
joe
Now that Kyocera has abandoned the Contax camera line, CZ can always use it on new cameras, including the new ZI line. That would make historical sense, since ZI was the name of the camera company, not a certain RF camera model, but the marketing/hyping of the ZI brand may have advanced too far for that to happen anytime soon.
Maybe, but wouldn't it be a huge marketing/hype advantage to actually badge them as Contax ... surprising everyone? Maybe that is what is holding up initial shipments of the bodies. Hey, if pnet slobs can start rumours, why not me? :D
am i the only one that is looking forward to seeing if the viewfinder on the zi is much better and easier to use with glasses than my m's.... so i could use my leica lenses on the zi... or would i be burned at the stake for even the thought of it... :-)
In it's hayday Zeiss was one of the two largest photographic equipment manufacturers in the world, the other being Kodak. A conglomoration of many companies, Zeiss made every photographic item you could think of. In many formats, their biggest competition was themselves as they at many times were manufacturing over 100 different camera models in all formats. Yes the Zeiss name is most commonly though of in regards of optics today, but traditionally it is a name of general photographic excellence.
http://www.company7.com/zeiss/history.html
back alley
05-13-2005, 19:12
i fear the new cz camera and it's finder...i can't afford a brand new camera and hell will freeze over before i sell the p's to help finance it.
i will never look at or touch that camera!
oh hell, who am i kidding?
joe
Huck Finn
05-13-2005, 19:25
Can they just do that? BrcauseI thought that would be like the trademark already belong to Kyocera and if they want to use the Contax name don't they have to buy it back or something? Anyhoo I dunno how this works. But I just think it is weird you mentioned that kyocera just discontinued Contax but another company can just freely use the name.
Flow, the trademark never belonged to Kyocera. It was licensed to them by Carl Zeiss, who retained ownership of the Contax name. Kyocera, a highly diversified mega-corporation, has decided to pull out of the film camera business. So, Zeiss can now do with the name whatever they want since they still own it.
Brian Sweeney
05-13-2005, 19:35
Good. Call it a Contax. Make it have a big viewfinder. Then put a Contax Mount on it. If it is not going to use a Contax mount, leave the name as-is.
The bad-mouthing Leica-Lovers at PNEt are still mad that Contax Kicked Leica's Xenon butt's with the Sonnar in the '30s and are afraid of a rematch. Zeiss steered off-course into the Contarex and Contaflex in the '50s. At least they have seen the error of their ways and want back into the RF business.
David Kieltyka
05-13-2005, 20:01
Does this mean that there are CZ K-mount lenses out there?
No, though at least two early Pentax K lenses used Zeiss designs: the 15mm f/3.5 and the 28mm f/2. Zeiss later produced both lenses for the Yashica/Contax mount. There was also a Leica-branded version of the 15mm for the R mount. For a short time Pentax made the 15mm in M42 screwmount too.
-Dave-
David Kieltyka
05-13-2005, 20:10
My understanding is Kyocera has exclusive rights to use the Contax brand for at least a couple more years. If true maybe Zeiss can buy back the name or negotiate some sort of agreement with Kyocera. Or maybe they'll just wait 'til the name reverts back to them anyway.
-Dave-
Good. Call it a Contax. Make it have a big viewfinder. Then put a Contax Mount on it. If it is not going to use a Contax mount, leave the name as-is.
Doh! My bad!!
Trius
aoresteen
05-14-2005, 09:26
Zeiss steered off-course into the Contarex and Contaflex in the '50s. At least they have seen the error of their ways and want back into the RF business.
Brian,
The Contaflex/Contarex had some features that have yet to be matched in 35mm SLRs.
1. Interchangeable backs. In the last 20 years only Rollei had them with the SL2000F series (I know most leak today but so do Hasselbald backs. Seals wear out).
2. Flash Sync 1/500 sec for the Contaflex.
3. Solid dicast constructions. Top end Nikon, Canon & Leica have it but pick ups a EOS Rebel or Minolta body. Platics junk IMHO.
4. Top notch lenses that are still hard to beat. The 50mm f/1.4 Planar, 85mm f/2 Sonnar etc.
The Contaflex has a place in history that is not well known. It was from the Contaflex that the Zeiss engineers started when designing the Sycro-Compur shutters in the Hasselblad 500C lenes. Mechanicly they are very similar. The sucess of the Hasselblad is unmatched in the worls of 6x6 SLRs.
I've just picked up a number of Contaflexs to have fun with! They are not bad cameras!
I like the 50mm f/2.8 Tessar.
Am I the only person astounded by the amount of disinformation being spouted about the upcoming Zeiss Ikon camera?
This is going to sound smug (which it is), but: OF COURSE NOT!!! (see my tongue in cheek Outrageous ZI Flaws thread (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BgiY) from April)
Many Leica owners suffer from a very petty snobbishness about their gear and they are quite vocal about it on photo.net. The new Zeiss promises to have a better VF/RF, easier loading, more shutter speeds and all kinds of other advantages in addition to its vaunted marque (which is probably what most threatens the shabby snobbishness of certain Leicaphiles).
It is too bad that ZI chose to use the same shutters from the Bessa, instead of picking the shutters from the Hexar and Contax G - the Hexar and Contax shutters seem much quieter in my experience (as well as having speeds from ~15 seconds to 1/4000).
Well...maybe in the ZI Digital...
There are also plenty of Leica owners who are quite equable about other brands, both here and on PN. I've noticed a distinct change in the climate over at PN with respect to using Konica and CV lenses, for example - its nowhere near what it used to be. There are other Leica forums where there is still a definite brand bias however. Let's not bash them too much - its the collectors who are probably keeping Leica in business - ever more tenuously perhaps.
Roger Hicks
05-14-2005, 11:50
Um... Comparing the ZI with an MP is a bit chalk-and-cheese: it's the M7 that the ZI is really going head-to-head with. I'd choose a ZI over an M7 without hesitation but I'd also choose an MP over a ZI. A lot depends on what you want, and a Leica where the shutter speed dial goes backwards is VERY bad news to someone who has been using Leicas for over a third of a century.
But I really wouldn't favour either the ZI or the M7 on the specific grounds of loading, viewfinder or shutter, including speeds -- OK the ZI has 1/2000 and faster flash synch, but fflash on an M is rank heresy anyway. I've only handled non-working ZIs but I have an R3A with the same shutter and with the ZI I could look through the VF and see how the film loading works so it didn't matter that they were non-operational. Really, it does come down to whether you prefer apples or oranges.
I also love trigger bases and use them on both my MP and Bessas; I don't know if they will be available for ZIs. But I'm really looking forward to some ZI lenses.
Cheers,
Roger
wlewisiii
05-14-2005, 12:02
Though I realize it's about as unlikely as can be imagined, I do keep hoping that sales will be good enough for them to come out with a Contax mount version. I'd just really love to be able to use my pre-war glass on a modern camera and one marked, say, Zeiss Ikon Contax IV would be enough to make me go broke :D Especially if the new lenses were available too :eek:
William
Does anyone have a feel for how the lenses are selling? THey've already appeared in a lot of outlets - any retailers here have a view on whether they're doing better, or worse, than expected?
Flyfisher Tom
05-14-2005, 16:22
Paul,
First, never take anything said at photo.net seriously anymore, it has largely been overrun with people more intrigued with the sounds of their own voices than solid or helpful information. I suspect most of the naysayers are people who haven't remotely come within a mile of handling the camera. Most of these folks seem to be under the mistaken impression that the more innane posts they have on photo.net, the more frequent flyer miles they get ;-)
Second, the US vs THEM attitude is not accurately just about leica owners. I am a leica owner, but I also genuinely want Zeiss to do well. Why not? More choices, more innovations, more possibilities for a digital M body. It would be great to see some solid competition for Leica. Good for Zeiss, good for Leica. I for one am cheering them on.
What appears to be happening now is that CZ is using the ZI name for new cameras made by Cosina, probably because Kyocera was still using the Contax name when the decision was made to create the new ZI RF's. Now that Kyocera has abandoned the Contax camera line, CZ can always use it on new cameras, including the new ZI line. That would make historical sense, since ZI was the name of the camera company, not a certain RF camera model, but the marketing/hyping of the ZI brand may have advanced too far for that to happen anytime soon.The public announcement from Kyocera indicated that they'd be continuing to market the Contax 645 camera line until the end of this year. So I expect they'd not want to relinquish use of the name until after that... I wonder if the new Z-I RF camera will be called Zeiss-Ikon only initially, and by this time next year it might be "Contax"?
The ZI doesn't look like a modern Contax, so I don't mind if it continues to be called the Zeiss Ikon.
Huck Finn
05-16-2005, 04:36
I've noticed a distinct change in the climate over at PN with respect to using Konica and CV lenses, for example - its nowhere near what it used to be.
Peter, this is certainly true. In fact, some of the ZI bashers will praise the virtues of Bessa or Hexar RF in support of their anti-ZI arguments. It's sad that each time a new offering enters the M-mount market, it has to go through this same hazing ritual. It happened to the Hexar RF & it happened to Voigtlander Bessas.
The loud-mouths who lead the charge at PN are far from representative of Leica owners. Many (most?) of us here include Leica lenses in our equipment bags even if we don't own a Leica camera. That's the joy of the M scene today. You can mix & match equipment regardless of the body that you're shooting with at the time in a way that SLR ownere can only dream about. All of which makes the bashing of increased choices for the user so strange & so hard to figure.
Honest criticism of new - or old - products is a desirable contribution. It's important for potential buers to know the flaws of any product. What makes the the PN discussions not constructive is - as Paul said to start this thread - the blatant misrepresentations, factual inaccuracies, & the dwelling on trivialities that have characterized so many of those discussions. It's a sad state of affairs for potential buyers who actually go there to better understand a new product & for assistance with a decision to purchase. What should be a short cut in their research must become at best a confusing mess & at worst a totally misleading exercise.
Huck
Huck Finn
05-16-2005, 04:41
But I really wouldn't favour either the ZI or the M7 on the specific grounds of loading, viewfinder or shutter, including speeds. Really, it does come down to whether you prefer apples or oranges.
I also love trigger bases and use them on both my MP and Bessas; I don't know if they will be available for ZIs. But I'm really looking forward to some ZI lenses.
Cheers,
Roger
Truer words were never spoken. Dispassionate discussions of each available option allows each user to obtain the camera that feels right to him/her. Descriptions of the strengths & limitations of each allows one to choose the right tool for the job. Better or worse comparisons seem like a waste of time.
Roger, unfortunately no trigger winder for the ZI because of the bottom-located film advance AFAIK.
Huck
Roger Hicks
05-16-2005, 06:50
Dear Huck,
Not advance, of course -- rewind. I can't see how they'd do it either but 'never say never''.
Cheers,
Roger
Huck Finn
05-16-2005, 06:55
Dear Huck,
Not advance, of course -- rewind. I can't see how they'd do it either but 'never say never''.
Cheers,
Roger
Roger, what was I thinking? :confused: :rolleyes:
Uncle Bill
05-17-2005, 02:19
I have a Contax IIIa, Canon Canonet QL17 GIII and a Leica M3. I love rangefinder cameras period, I love shooting with them and the results I get. Half my glass for my Leica M3 is not from Leica, in fact I use the Canon 50/1.4 screwmount lens with adapter more often than the 50/2 collapsable Summicron that came with the camera and I love using the CV 35/2.5 and have become quite addicted to it. Now if I had the cash floating around I would buy into the Zeiss Ikon system without hesitatiing, can you say, the optics. Brand snobbery is a joke, I am a shooter not some wacked collector that keeps his/her cameras under glass.
I have not seen the the new Zeiss Ikon in person yet but having read about it's product development in Shutterbug, I am quite impressed. I would not be surprised, if or when the dust settles with Leica, they too will be using Cosina to assemble the gear.
Bill
Marcus B
05-17-2005, 03:29
I came across an interesting statement about the Zeiss Ikon in the B&H catalogue that arrived in yesterday's mail. Among its features, the catalogue description lists:
"Metal body for mechanical and thermal long-term stability"
Does anyone have any idea what this means? I certainly understand the reference to mechanical stability, but I've never seen "thermal stability" referenced in descibing a camera body. I haven't come across this description in any of the Zeiss, Hasselblad, or Cosina literature about the ZI. Do all metal bodies inherently have "thermal stability"? Is this something unique to this camera? I would think not, but I don't think that I've ever come across this description of a camera body before in a B&H catalogue.
IMHO this is marketingspeak only. Why is this?
Firstly, without saying anything about which metal (aluminium has about double the thermal expansion rate of steel, i don't remember the value for brass) this is non-information.
Fibre reinfored resins using carbon fibre or even glass fiber will have similar or sometimes even lower thermal expansion rates than steel. This depends on fibre direction, when done incorrectly, the expansion rate will be much larger than metals! Also, having the fibres in the "right" orientation for optimum thermal expansion may mean they are in the wrong orientation for strength. For tubes the solution is simple, but a complex camera body is something else: good engineering is required. Low thermal expansion may even be reached by using (the right combination of different kinds of) wood as material.
Secondly , the only way to have near-zero thermal expansion using metals is to use invar (name says it all). This would result in a very expensive camera (invar is not renowned for its low price nor for its good machinability).
Thirdly, even when using a (any!) low-thermal-expansion material internal stresses and temperature gradients may induce relatively large thermal *deformations* ("warping") which can have an even larger influence on performance (hence Aluminium may be a better material than steel notwithstanding the higher expansion rate) als the thermal conductivity is better and the temperature gradients can be lower. All depends on the design and the application, YMMV. We're still just scratching at the surface of temperature-insensitive design here...
Fourthly, even a temperature shift of, say, 50 degrees K (using the thermal expansion coefficient of steel of about 12 ppm/K and a flange-to-plane distance of about 30mm) would result in a linear expansion from film plane to lens mount (disregarding temperature gradient/stress effects) that IMHO is much lower than machining tolerances of RF cameras (which I can only guess at).
Anyhow, all this would mean (almost) nothing without having a lens designed along the same low-thermal-expansion guidelines, which leads me to the conclusion that this statement is marketing hype.
Best regards,
Marcus
(I must have too much time on my hands... :-)
Huck Finn
05-17-2005, 03:45
Thanks for your thoughts, Marcus. Having no engineering background, I had no idea what they were talking about.
Huck
aoresteen
05-17-2005, 13:18
Though I realize it's about as unlikely as can be imagined, I do keep hoping that sales will be good enough for them to come out with a Contax mount version. I'd just really love to be able to use my pre-war glass on a modern camera and one marked, say, Zeiss Ikon Contax IV would be enough to make me go broke :D Especially if the new lenses were available too :eek:
William
So would I but it would have to be called the Contax Vc. Contax IV and IVa was/is the G and G2 Contaxes. Contax V is the ZI. The ZI with a Contax mount would be Vc. Cosina has the tools and dies as they made the Bessa R2 C. CamerQuest has them but they are discontinued so stocks will be drying up soon.
I'm considering getting one myself.
wlewisiii
05-17-2005, 13:43
So would I but it would have to be called the Contax Vc. Contax IV and IVa was/is the G and G2 Contaxes. Contax V is the ZI. The ZI with a Contax mount would be Vc. Cosina has the tools and dies as they made the Bessa R2 C. CamerQuest has them but they are discontinued so stocks will be drying up soon.
I'm considering getting one myself.
Good point on the name.
If I had the money, I'd already have an R2C. I've had serious GAS for one ever since I learned of it, but it's just too much for an unemployed stay at home dad to pop for a camera. But it would be really fun to pop my prewar Sonnars onto it... :D
William
Marcus B
05-17-2005, 23:41
Thanks for your thoughts, Marcus. Having no engineering background, I had no idea what they were talking about.
Huck
You're welcome, for me it was nice to dig up stuff from 10 years ago (that was when I was last working in that field)!
David Kieltyka
05-18-2005, 11:04
I like the R2C. I'll be taking it to New York with me next week on my annual spring visit. The 35 & 85mm framelines in the viewfinder are great to have. I mainly use an Opton 35 Biogon, Opton 85 Triotar (much smaller & lighter than the Sonnar, though not as good a performer below f/5.6) along with a later "Carl Zeiss" 50mm f/1.5 for low-light and shallow-DOF stuff.
-Dave-
tamerlin
05-18-2005, 11:38
Will all these attacks kill off the ZI?
No. I wouldn't worry about that. If it's a good camera, it will most likely sell pretty well... and I have
high expectations for any Zeiss product.
Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?
It's just a sign of people insecure in their preferences, and unable to find an intelligent way to
justify their purchases. So they claim that the other product is inferior to satisfy their weak egos.
They're rarely people who are actually out trying to USE these products, and in reality, they're
irrelevant -- as long as we keep them off of here. :)
Though I've become a Leica fan, I am interested in the Ikon, because there is a possibility that I
might one day get one as a second body though it's more likely that I would choose to wait until the
digital version shows up, and in the interim some of those lenses look pretty tempting to go with
my Leica m7 :)
Dan States
06-05-2005, 13:08
Maybe by "thermal stability" they mean it wont melt if you leave it on the dash of your car in the summer! HAR!! HAR!!
Dan
I suspect there will be many Leica owners who pick up a Zeiss Ikon, because it is a more affordable alternative to the M7 (which goes up to $3300 US as of July 1); or because of the greater eye relief. Once the camera body is out, I believe folks will be more apt to give the lenses a try. I really believe that rangefinder folks -- Leica or otherwise -- are going to be somewhat surprised at how well this camera is accepted, given its anticipated build quality and price. Of course, I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, because, as we say here, the proof is in the pudding. We'll see.
I expect build quality will be an important issue in its acceptance. The specs look great.
Roger Hicks
06-06-2005, 00:57
I'd take the opposite viewpoint from SGY1962 -- the lenses are what matters, not the bodies. To be cynical, making only lenses and no bodies says "Me too!" but selling a body to go with the lenses says "I am serious."
After all, there are lots of bodies already in circulation which might perform better with Zeiss lenses, but there are no lenses that are going to perform better with Zeiss bodies (well, all right, except ultra-fast lenses that you can't easily focus with an effective 28mm rangefinder base.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
the zeiss ikon is upping the ante with the high eye relief viewfinder and longer base length. it could make the .58x leica obsolete, while making it easier to focus demanding lenses without being near life-size. they could also come out with a magnifying eyepiece!
Roger -- If I understand your post correctly, I agree w/ you 100%. Lenses are more important then bodies, and that is where the money should be invested.
But in practical terms, I believe once the boby is available, then lens sales will pick up, because for many consumers once they purchase a new body they will be more inclined to purchase new lenses to go w/ that body.
It would also help for some reviews to come out on these lenses.
What really exciytes me about the Zeiss Ikon is the high eye relief view finder.
Todd.Hanz
06-06-2005, 04:14
Re: the original question
Will all these attacks kill off the ZI? Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?
.......no these "attacks" won't kill off the ZI, it's the Canon vs. Nikon, Chevy vs. Ford, Skoal vs. Coppenhagen...err, eh?.... brand loyalty debate all over again. I hope the Ziess lenses have thier own "signature" look to them, that would interest me.
Todd
The ZI film body really does not interest me. I'll probably go in and pick one up out of curiosity though. I heard that it was made out of aluminum and the shutter is made out of carbon fiber. That was on the Leica forum I believe. As a matter of fact the Leica forum is abuzz with talk about this new camera and not in a bad way but highly expecting it as another option. Especially a digital option. I have to admit that if ZI comes out with a full frame digital body that I would be one of the first to throw down the money for that. Right now I have the GAS for another MP body with Leicavit.
David Kieltyka
06-06-2005, 13:13
I hope the Zeiss lenses have thier own "signature" look to them, that would interest me.
From what I've seen (I own the 50mm and have used the 35mm) they do have a distinctive look. They share the color rendition and contrast of the G series lenses along with very smooth out-of-focus character. I really like the 50mm.
IMO it's great that there are so many different styles of lenses, and from so many different eras, available in M mount. I wish people would get over the silly desire to nail down a "best" lens in a given focal length and start enjoying all the variety. There are multiple "bests" depending on your tastes and needs.
-Dave-
IMO it's great that there are so many different styles of lenses, and from so many different eras, available in M mount. I wish people would get over the silly desire to nail down a "best" lens in a given focal length and start enjoying all the variety. There are multiple "bests" depending on your tastes and needs.
IMO this is one of the greatest things about being an RF shooter. If my favorite 50mm lens at the moment is the Carl Zeiss, or the Summicron, or the Nokton, or a circa-1961 Canon, or a circa-1936 Elmar, or a Jupiter-8 of uncertain age... well, I can take that lens and stick it (possibly with the aid of a simple adapter) on my brand-spanking-new Zeiss-Ikon or Leica or Cosina or Epson body and shoot happily away. And if I'm a Leica owner and decide that the new Z-I camera looks pretty appealing... or if I want a Bessa as a lower-cost second body... I can just pick one up and use it with the lenses I already own.
(I probably won't need to read a 500-page instruction book to find out where the mode selector is, either.)
This easy intermarriage does tend to make for fairly intensive "which is best?" arguments -- but that's precisely BECAUSE we can compare so easily.
The Canon-vs.-Nikon arguments among SLR users are fairly intense, but you know they'd all give their eyeteeth to be able to stick a Nikkor lens on their EOS (or vice-versa) and see for themselves whether or not they really like it.
Bertram2
06-06-2005, 17:00
in addition to its vaunted marque (which is probably what most threatens the shabby snobbishness of certain Leicaphiles).
I.
Leicaphiles is a too friendly word iHMO, they pretend to love the product, but they just abuse the image for their poor purposes.
We should never forget: Snob once meant "Sine (without) Nobilitate (nobility)". and tho it is used in slightly different meaning nowadays it still means parvenus making their status with goods or things they use as a symbolic substitute for everything they miss but can't buy for money.
P.net is sometimes looking like a lab where you can watch them dancing around with their pants down. That's all quite funny and entertaining as long as it is far away from here. I'd hate to see our party spoiled by some of those. :(
Regards,
Bertram
bobofish
06-06-2005, 17:37
I think having a variety of quality manufacturers represented in the same lens mount is a tremendous advantage, and one that many people do not understand or appreciate.
Some people enjoy using black and white, some color, and then of course there's the millions of possible permutations of exposure, film and developing that allows people to be truly creative...sometimes a painter will use red, sometimes blue, but only a fool would argue that one color is better than the other.
In almost any other camera system, with the generous exception of large format, photographers are hobbled in the choices they can make by lenses dedicated to a particular camera..if they want a different look, then they have to buy an entirely new system.
I would love it if all the manufacturers of SLR cameras would standardize their lens mounts to allow easy interchange of all the different lenses...It will never happen, but it'd be lovely.
Imagine being able to use your favorite body with your favorite lenses for a particular task....a canon Eos 1V with a Nikkor Wide...or an F5 with Olympus lenses....lovely.
Sharpness is greatly overrated in lens design, many of the most widely acclaimed lenses in the world are not the sharpest, but they perform admirably in out of focus rendition, color cast, contrast, etc.
Some people also make arguments that a particular (often Leica) lens is "the sharpest lens ever...)
This is not only a silly argument to make, but also factually wrong....according to many tests, Canon has had several of the sharpest lenses in the 35 mm world for many years now....unless things have changed, their 200 mm f1.8 was recently proven to be the sharpest 35 mm lens ever.
And don't forget that the sharpest lenses in the world have nothing to do with 35 mm photography....
Frank Granovski
11-17-2005, 01:42
Paul T. wrote:Will all these attacks kill off the ZI? Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?
The answers:
(1) No, these attacks won't kill off the Z1.
(2) Yes, it is a sign from the Leica heads running scared.
(3) Leica heads start these rumours.
existrandom
11-17-2005, 21:15
after much thoughts i bought a user M4 some months ago; i like it very much; it is real craftmanship, a piece of history in the digital gadget mobile-phone-camera age... and it could be relied on for its no fuss interface...
but from what i ve read about the Zeiss Ikon for OVER A YEAR, i think i better start save up for a black one when it is out; on the following account in terms of my use preference:
1) it is a NEW camera, not a 60 yrs old! (translation: i won't need to expect it to die soon; parts are much more easily avaliable... plus: when was the last time anyone of use bought a NEW camera?)
2) the reported eye relief for use of 28 & 35mm lens (translation: i am going to buy the ZM25 and many other wide angles?)
3) the reported HUGE viewfinder vision of feild (translation: you can actually see it is HUGE, right?)
4) the longish effect base length (translation: my eyesight would only get worse, not better, right? and i am sticking to 0.7ish for its being versatile with more lens choice)
these would make the ZI a very very good camera for REAL world use
and the leica? for my nostalgic, feel like being "contemplative-yet-also-cool" days
cheers
lee
mhoutman
11-20-2005, 02:10
Hello, this is my first posting. A have a Leica M7 but was allways very much interested in Zeiss Ikon as I strongly believe that they (have) build wonderfull camera's. Now with the new ZM it is yet another opportunity !!
At the ZI forum you would expect a lot of nonsense about Leica, and frankly speaking I read on the Leica Forums so much nonsense about ZI too. A pity and a missed chance to talk about the real thing: two brands dealing with both great rangefinder products in a digital era.
In stead of talking nonsense I feel we should cooperate and exchange our thoughts in a more positive manner. May I all welcome and invite you at the Leica forums.
http://www.leica-camera.com/cgi-bin/discus_e/discus.pl?pg=topics
(english language)
or
http://www.leica-camera.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.pl?pg=topics
(german language)
for all now, happy shooting and enjoy your ZI .
Michiel
Frank Granovski
11-20-2005, 02:36
I can't get into the threads. :bang:
mhoutman
11-20-2005, 03:27
I can't get into the threads. :bang:
if you mean the Leica forum threads you can view them asa "guest" contribution is as registeree only; good luck !
Frank Granovski
11-20-2005, 03:44
I signed up there about a year or so ago, but I can't log in.
Frank Granovski
11-20-2005, 03:48
Oh, that worked; but it just brings me to the main forums page. I thought that link was for a thread about "When Leica fans attack." :mad:
Honu-Hugger
11-20-2005, 04:54
Leicaphiles is a too friendly word iHMO, they pretend to love the product, but they just abuse the image for their poor purposes.
We should never forget: Snob once meant "Sine (without) Nobilitate (nobility)". and tho it is used in slightly different meaning nowadays it still means parvenus making their status with goods or things they use as a symbolic substitute for everything they miss but can't buy for money.
P.net is sometimes looking like a lab where you can watch them dancing around with their pants down. That's all quite funny and entertaining as long as it is far away from here. I'd hate to see our party spoiled by some of those. :(
Regards,
Bertram
I agree, Bertram. I've never used the word "Leicaphile;" I prefer Leica-Lemming ;).
Bertram2
11-20-2005, 05:40
http://www.leica-camera.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.pl?pg=topics
Michiel
This leads to the log in site, as a guest I would have to search the threads you could have meant, but sorry, I am to lazy.
Also because I have to expect to get served that kind of " rebadged cossy" crap , no thanks.
There and in p.net are some bird-brained biological wonders, who obviously have learned to breathe 24X7 the own exhaust gas without dying from it, there is no other explanation for the surving of somebody who has the head so deep in his own a... !! :D
In former times I found it funny to read their posts, now I find it just boring.
Regards,
Bertram
Huck Finn
11-20-2005, 06:30
I feel we should cooperate and exchange our thoughts in a positive manner. May I all welcome and invite you at the Leica forums.
for all now, happy shooting and enjoy your ZI .
Michiel
Michel, thank you for the invitation. I agree that the two systems are complementary & offer an opportunity for a positive exchange of ideas that can be helpful. Since both are M-mount, I expect that there will be many people who will mix equipment from both systems. I have a ZI on order, arriving this week, on which I will be using Leica, Zeiss, & Cosina/Voigtlander lenses.
By the way, I have been posting on the English language forum for some time.
Huck
Bertram2
11-20-2005, 09:32
Also because I have to expect to get served that kind of " rebadged cossy" crap , no thanks.
Bertram
The absolutely latest thing is to speak of a small (R3xx)and a big Cosina (ZI) only :bang:
The name Zeiss Ikon is simply denied related to this camera. I ask myself how sick such a bedwetter must be to find this childish attitude clever.
One should mention tho, that on the Leica list there are enuff who critisize this kinda babble as what it is............ Don't know who has the majority. There a lot of nice guys and good photogs over there at the LUG, a shame tho what damnage these idiots do for the image of the list.
Regards,
Bertram
richard_l
11-20-2005, 10:46
For anyone who wants the AE crutch :angel: , the ZI makes a lot more sense than the M7. Personally, I would rather have a pristine M4 than either of them. However, those beautiful ZM lenses certainly are tempting.
I just got the new Foto Huppert cataloge, front Canon 5d, back ZI. No Contax anymore :-(
Man, the temptation! I want the 5d, light fall off and all, and I want a ZI, it's so sexy!
Since the only brand I was loyal to is now gone, I see the ZI as what it is. A well made rangefinder available for half the price of another well made rangefinder with properties the less well made rangefinder doesn't have :-)
i fondled the zi lenses at the camera show today. they feel really good. the black paint seems pretty heavy duty. the focus ring is more dampened and the aperture ring has firmer detents than leica. basically like the m-hexanons. you might think the focusing bump is small, but it works really great and it was easier for me to focus precisely compared to crescent tabs. the leica lenses are easier to work quickly, i think.
Bertram2
11-20-2005, 15:52
I just got the new Foto Huppert cataloge, front Canon 5d, back ZI. No Contax anymore :-(
Man, the temptation! I want the 5d, light fall off and all, and I want a ZI, it's so sexy!
)
Suggestion:
Buy the ZI first and wait until the 5D is at 60% of the current price level. ;)
A year or so.
bertram
Bertram2
11-20-2005, 16:16
For anyone who wants the AE crutch :angel: , the ZI makes a lot more sense than the M7. Personally, I would rather have a pristine M4 than either of them. However, those beautiful ZM lenses certainly are tempting.
Yes why take leica lenses if you can get the better Zeiss lenses for less money ? :angel:
Richard,
as somebody explained recently on the German Leica list your are one of those being solely guilty of having ruined Leica by using old stuff only instead of investing in a new system.
He said that if somebody cannot afford a New Leica he better should buy another brand. :D
What a simple but ingenious way to explain Leica's idiotic price level !
So shame on you , Richard, forget that moldy old M4 with the lame shutter, order a new Leica NOW or you will be excluded from the enlightened circles of the TRUE knights of the holy grail FOREVER ! :D :D Do you really want to stay second class in the eyes of all these VIPs ??
I personally would prefer the ZI because I cannot afford a Leica. I mean because it would make me suspicious to be one of those enlightened knights , you know ?
That would really bother me ! And the Zeiss lenses are better anyway I suppose ! :angel:
Regards,
Bertram
Joking
richard_l
11-20-2005, 16:24
Well, er, ummm.... :o
How could I be so stupid? :bang:
Bertram2
11-20-2005, 17:03
Well, er, ummm.... :o
How could I be so stupid? :bang:
Hehe, don't worry , Richard, that's the question we all have to ask ourselves, each time after having read again one of those enlightening leicaistic contributions ! :D :D
We notice then again the superior intellectual level of some LUG members, and we feel very very small in the face of such razor-sharp working brains .
It's always a bit as having been in church. :D :D :D
Regards,
bertram
not member of any church
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