Wartime Leica IIIc deliveries to ODIN (Leitz agency in the Netherlands)

[L39UK]

There is a growing interest in Leica IIIc "steppers" and in particular the RFF thread posted by "Leica Tom" concerning the Leica IIIc K (Kugellager) cameras has created great interest and postings from forum members.
There is also an interesting and rare Leica IIIc "stepper" that is engraved N-L which indicates that this camera was delivered to the Leitz agency in the Netherlands "ODIN".
From May 1940 the Netherlands(Holland) was occupied by the invading German forces and remained so until liberation in 1945.
During this time deliveries of Leica cameras were made to the Leitz agent ODIN.These cameras were not military cameras but probably purchased by German soldiers to record and photograph their exploits in Occupied Holland.
Of particular interest are the rare early Leica 111c "steppers" engraved N-L in the 360/361 series of cameras.These cameras have "BLACK" curtains of the 1920/30's type material, the last of which was used on these cameras before Leitz ran out of this material and had to use the "RED" curtain material which is discussed on another thread.
If any Dutch RFF members can shed more light on these cameras and the wartime history of the Leitz agency ODIN I am sure that the information would be very interesting and very much appreciated by forum members who own, use or are interested in the history of these rare cameras.
My Leica IIIc "stepper" N-L is in the 361 series from a shipment in August 1940.
Tom's (LeicaTom's) camera is in the same 361 series but an earlier camera.
Does anyone have a camera with the N-L engraving with a 360 serial number ?
Regards,
William

[John Lawrence]

Just a quick HU to those interested: Fotofix in the UK have one of these cameras listed for sale on their website. I believe it has been converted to a IIIF Red dial, but all else matches the above criteria. The link is:

http://www.fotofixuk.co.uk/leicascrew-page2.html

Please note that I am not affiliated in any way to Fotofix.

[John Lawrence]

Whoops - my first post and my first mistake! I should have mentioned that the camera at Fotofix ihas a 362XXX serial number, and although the conversion is to a IIIF it may not be a Red dial. Sorry for any confusion.

[Ronald_H]

Well, I am Dutch, but this is new for me. I know a fair bit about WWII, it is in fact one my main interests. I have visited just about any war related museum in my country, but never did I ever encounter something Leica related.

Very interesting but the engraving is spelled N-L. The correct German translation is 'Niederlande', written as one word.

I am not qualified to answer the question if Leicas were imported during WWII and to whom they were sold, only German personnel or also to the general (Dutch) public. But I sure would like to know more.

[L39UK]

Well, I am Dutch, but this is new for me. I know a fair bit about WWII, it is in fact one my main interests. I have visited just about any war related museum in my country, but never did I ever encounter something Leica related.

Very interesting but the engraving is spelled N-L. The correct German translation is 'Niederlande', written as one word.

I am not qualified to answer the question if Leicas were imported during WWII and to whom they were sold, only German personnel or also to the general (Dutch) public. But I sure would like to know more.

Many thanks for the posting and I have corrected my posting of NL to N-L which, as you kindly pointed out, is the correct form of the engraving on these cameras.I hope that this thread will be able to provide you with some interesting information relating to the Leica cameras that were sent to ODIN during the war years.
Regards,
William

[Mr_Flibble]

Like Ronald, I'm Dutch and I have a great interest in the history of human conflict and particularly WW2, but I had not heard of ODIN before Tom mentioned it in his IIIcK topic.

Perhaps the cameras were sold to members of political groups or the police force.

I will keep my eyes open for anything related.

[Roger Hicks]

Civilian sales of all sorts of things, even in occupied countries, continued for an extraordinarily long time under the Third Reich. Google 'Pontiac France Camera' for more information on a photographic example.

Cheers,

Roger

[LeicaTom]

The story of Odin goes back to way before the second world war and I have evidence that cameras as early as 1935 were engraved with the N-L on the top plate.
(I`m pretty sure it has to do with Export and Taxes much like the <EP> was for the Far East and Japan for US Forces equipment , to aid the Japanese Government in the 1950`s and 60`s)

My 1940 IIIC is the earliest known example of a N-L still surviving from a shipment made during July 1940, to Odin Netherlands and then sold through Photo Miele in Utrecht and like William`s camera also issued with "Black" curtains, which were only done in like 1,600 or so of the first Leica IIIC`s ever made.
*after that came the shutter fabric shortage and Leitz had to resort to using left over Red colored slik parachute-like fabric (from 1930`s Eastman Kodak experiments) to do shutter curtains, throughout the rest of 1940 to late 1941 production all Leica shutter curtains were Red - but, this is another story.......*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/koolgirliestuff/2824net.jpg?t=1224865938 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

My early 1940 Leica IIIC N-L (awaiting restoration)

I`ve been told that N-L shipments to Holland were made during 1940 to 42
(In a time when even more bizarre exports were made, to other Leitz distributors - like Molloff in Bulgaria or Schmidt in Singapore *occupied by Axis Forces*) - cameras were also shipped to neutral Spain, Sweden and Switzerland during the war as well, I`ve heard of some shipments as late as 1943 to any one of those places, none of these though were specially engraved as the N-L was.

I`m pretty sure that 100% of the N-L cameras from 1940 on were sold to German occupying forces and not to Dutch civilians, these cameras later found their way into Allied hands after the Liberation in 1944 and 45 of the Netherlands.
(My camera was a 1945 US Army captured camera)

The N-L engraving continued until the early 1950`s and the IIIFBD, Odin itself went out of business I believe sometime in the 1990`s - the company was in business over 60 years! I wish there was someone from Holland who could tell more of it`s story, I`ve been looking for someone who knows more but to no avail....

These cameras are`nt really any different then any other early "wartime" IIIC`s externally, (except some surviving cameras have the Photo Miele dealer stickers inside the bottom of the camera on the housing next to the rewind spool) but they do have a Mystique about them in that they were all used during WW2, maybe some in combat? And very very few survived and they have that unique Dutch historical connection.......

These cameras rarely come onto the market, but when they do, they command higher than normal values of comparable era IIIC`s
with nice examples running maybe $1,000 to $1,500 *current value*

I`d like to see more N-L`s if anyone else here at RFF has one, please post a photo and run the serial number by me via email - thank you!

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Just a quick HU to those interested: Fotofix in the UK have one of these cameras listed for sale on their website. I believe it has been converted to a IIIF Red dial, but all else matches the above criteria. The link is:

http://www.fotofixuk.co.uk/leicascrew-page2.html

Please note that I am not affiliated in any way to Fotofix.

Yes, I know of that camera, very early in the #362xxx series, (one of the LAST of the "black curtain" Leica IIIC`s of 1940/41)

It has alot of wear (seems the early production IIIC`s all were used well, no matter who got their hands on them....)
Sadly the rare original "auf/zu" 1940/41 "Dog Ear" bottom plate is missing, replaced by a late 1940`s export bottom - nonthelsss an interesting conversion of a rare camera.

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Well, I`m posting here to REFRESH this page with people :)

My #3613XX will finished being restored soon with the help of Youxin Ye and many others who I will credit later, but I`m really surprised that we never got anyone else from Holland chiming in here with anymore Leitz Odin history and stories?

Is there anyone "new" to the RFF forums that might shed some more light on the Odin story, which took place in Holland , which started about 1934 and ended in the early/mid 1980`s?

Thanks

Tom

[PAN F]

I believe that Malcolm Taylor,the well known English Leica repairer and restorer,enquired many years ago, of Leitz and the then Dutch agents regarding the N-L engraved Leicas and from his enquiries learned that these Leicas were not engraved as such with N-L before shipment from Leitz,but that the Dutch Agent Odin sent them for engraving to a local engravers workshop just around the corner from Odin head office in Njimegen.

[LeicaTom]

I believe that Malcolm Taylor,the well known English Leica repairer and restorer,enquired many years ago, of Leitz and the then Dutch agents regarding the N-L engraved Leicas and from his enquiries learned that these Leicas were not engraved as such with N-L before shipment from Leitz,but that the Dutch Agent Odin sent them for engraving to a local engravers workshop just around the corner from Odin head office in Njimegen.

And Photo Miele in Utrecht was right down the road from there :)

Makes sense to me, but then Leitz didn`t do any other special engraving either, *like for the military etc.* Leitz supported photoshop`s/agencies had special companies do all these engravings before the cameras reached their final destinations.

Thank You PAN F for chiming in here :D

Tom

[Mr_Flibble]

The Netherlands isn't that big, heck, Domburg or Texel are down the road from Nijmegen. ;)

I've asked about ODIN to a friend whose family owns a camera store, just north of Nijmegen. He said he would ask his father, but never got back to me. I could ask him again when I see him two weeks from now.

And I haven't spotted any N-L marked Leicas since this topic was started.
Sorry.

[LeicaTom]

The Netherlands isn't that big, heck, Domburg or Texel are down the road from Nijmegen. ;)

I've asked about ODIN to a friend whose family owns a camera store, just north of Nijmegen. He said he would ask his father, but never got back to me. I could ask him again when I see him two weeks from now.

And I haven't spotted any N-L marked Leicas since this topic was started.
Sorry.

Thank you so very much!

Ohh since I bought mine and William has his, there has`nt been one offered online since, they are very uncommon cameras, a simple small engraving, but I`m sure each camera would have a keen story to tell if it could talk :D

Tom

[mynikonf2]

Tom,

I see your camera took a severe hit to the top plate. Are you going to make any effort at restoring it? Perhaps using a block of wood with a lite mallet and trying to tap some of the dent out?

[LeicaTom]

Tom,

I see your camera took a severe hit to the top plate. Are you going to make any effort at restoring it? Perhaps using a block of wood with a lite mallet and trying to tap some of the dent out?

No I don`t think so Mike, I think I`ll just leave her how she is....I`m sure that was some jackass with a screwdriver who didn`t know a damm thing about fixing Leica`s (I KNOW a few people like that personally, but no name dropping here!).

Thank God! We have amazing Leica repairmen like Don Goldberg and Youxin Ye around! (Between the two of them the N-L will be coming back to life again :) )

But the cosmetic damage was just another reason this camera was sold as parts to me, while 40+ years ago when my camera was stripped no one even was thinking of special engravings on IIIC`s, now if a N-L turned up everyone would know it`s something unique.

Tom

[Mr_Flibble]

Spotted this just now on Ebay

Leica III b with N-L engraving (http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-III-b-Engraving-N-L_W0QQitemZ370181848950QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cam eras?hash=item370181848950&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)

[LeicaTom]

Spotted this just now on Ebay

Leica III b with N-L engraving (http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-III-b-Engraving-N-L_W0QQitemZ370181848950QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cam eras?hash=item370181848950&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)

Arsenal are a bunch of rude and ignorant people, I wrote them about this camera, and I received a very rude and unprofessional email back from them.
The cameras NON OPERATIONAL , and needs repairs, and has Black Curtains and it isn`t a IIIB, IT`S A IIIC!
You`d expect from a place trying to sell something so expensive that they would get their camera info`s correct, just chalk it up to be added to the list of things too expensive to buy on ebay, I sometimes wonder if they even have these items at all, I wish someone here on the RFF in Germany could go see.....I`ve seen like 3 recent auctions OF THE SAME PICTURED ITEMS, on ebay in different auctions, and different prices, I should report them.

This camera is worth maybe $400, while it`s NO LONGER ORIGINAL, has black curtains, instead of Red ones.

I would`nt touch it, there`s alot of junk and non original things being offered at ebay you have to keep up your guard. :(

Tom

[Mr_Flibble]

Just reporting what I found, not that I was particularly interested in buying it from Arsenal. ;)
They have some interesting items on offer sometimes, but their prices always turn me away.

I'll be asking my friend about the ODIN company this weekend.
Miele is a big name in household appliances these days, There is a Miele outlet store in Utrecht, but I seriously doubt that this company is in any way related to the Foto Miele store. I think that was a smaller family-run business like so many photo stores around the country.

[LeicaTom]

Here`s a very battle weary possible N-L on evilbay.......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110369658098&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

I could`nt verify that this was an original Leitz/Odin delivery, so everyone`s bidding on something unknown.......

It looks like the N-L engraving`s going to make a record even in a war ravaged version such as this, it`s needing at least $300 worth of repairs to get close to any sort of operational status!

If this is a real N-L then more than likely it was a German military photographer`s camera, this cameras seen some action for sure, that I can say is positive. :eek:

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Wow!

That beat up non verified IIIb made $338 on evilbay!!!!!

Collectors are such fools.

Tom

[sabears]

...And the buyer have to add almost the same amount only in order to have a working (but a less than average cosmethics) one...

cheers

[CLE-RF]

Hi all,

I'm a new, proud (and happy!) Leica IIIc N-L Stepper owner!

LeicaTom has assisted me in purchasing this one from a Dutch seller. Serial number is 3627xx, a 1940 production. Delivered to ODIN Netherlands on September 18th 1940. Lens is a 50mm Elmar from 1939, possibly original lens, no record available.

The camera has red shutter cloth, in perfect condition, all speeds appropriate, according to seller. LeicaTom has told me this camera is among the first 350 to have red shutters.
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9720/0104201.jpg

There is a customs seal on the camera. Although having seen one of these before, it took me a while to realise what it was. I'm very curious about the stamp on the seal, it might turn out this camera was never actually delivered to the German forces in The Netherlands, it may have been at ODIN's all through the war!
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7067/0104202g.jpg

Vulcanite needs reglueing, glue and syringe with needle are already standing by for emergency rescue.

Ofcourse I'll post more shots once the camera is ready for that!

[sabears]

Nice camera!
Compliments for your new purchase.
The seal usually were from import dealer,perhaps Odin itself.
Ive found a similar one with impress Swiss logo from the (at the time) importer.

Have fun with this camera!
Cheers.

[CLE-RF]

Nice camera!
Compliments for your new purchase.
The seal usually were from import dealer,perhaps Odin itself.
Ive found a similar one with impress Swiss logo from the (at the time) importer.

Have fun with this camera!
Cheers.

Ah, a dealer seal, had not thought of that one yet. I'll try to figure out about it. ODIN NL has vanished off the face off the earth, no info on the net or former company officials seems to remain at all. Might make a study of that in the near future, for histories sake.

[HuubL]

Congrats with your N-L IIIc. Now where did I see that camera before...?

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Well, at least until october 2002 Odin had a website running with Leica products. This is testified by a report of a vvbs webservices. Here you can find the report: odin is mentioned on page 5.
http://www.vvbs.nl/files/download/referenties%20oktober%202002_1.pdf

and this person worked with Odin, e.g. as a Leica repair man:

http://www.switchimage.org/Colin_Wilson.html

[LeicaTom]

Ah, a dealer seal, had not thought of that one yet. I'll try to figure out about it. ODIN NL has vanished off the face off the earth, no info on the net or former company officials seems to remain at all. Might make a study of that in the near future, for histories sake.

Johan,

Congrats on the beautiful IIIC N-L good to have yet another added to the very small list of survivors. ~ I`m pretty sure the 1939 Elmar is original to the body lens if issued so, I might have more info`s in a couple of weeks or so :)

Hmm wonder if that tag has anything to do with Photo Miele, or if it`s an Import tag? , whatever it is it`s interesting, I know you didn`t have time to photograph it this weekend, but when you get time, next week or so, take some shots of the tag and send it to me, also, let me know if your Miele Decal is in good shape on the bottom of the chassis as well :)

Seems like Odin was manned by very few people and sadly it seems everyone`s passed away, or there`s like not too many people who remember?

There`s got to be a Leica dealer in Holland who should remember something about them? ~ No one`s written a history about them, that can be said for sure........

Tom

[CLE-RF]

Johan,



There`s got to be a Leica dealer in Holland who should remember something about them? ~ No one`s written a history about them, that can be said for sure........

Tom


Tom, thank you so much for researching the history of the camera, I could not have managed alone!

I have tonight again looked for info on Odin on the net, but I have come up with little more than an address. Two years ago the website was still online but it is gone now too, even from Googles cache.

Think I will research the history of ODIN in the Netherlands in the near future, sounds like a good summer holiday project.

[mynikonf2]

quote=CLE-RF
"I have tonight again looked for info on Odin on the net, but I have come up with little more than an address. Two years ago the website was still online but it is gone now too, even from Googles cache."

CLE-RF

Here's a link to a site that has an archive of every web site that has existed on the web. Hopefully you will be able to find it again.

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

Also congrats on your NL camera.

[CLE-RF]

Here's a link to a site that has an archive of every web site that has existed on the web. Hopefully you will be able to find it again.

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
...

Hi, thanks for the link, did not know that site. Unfortunately, the original websites structure wasn't conform standards, so I would need to know names of individual pages, as the home page does not feature any links to other pages of the site... bummer.

[SolaresLarrave]

My 1980s M4-2 has a sticker inside that says "ODIN - Service Gegarandeerd." The sticker is orange, and I can presume the camera was serviced at some time in the Netherlands.

I just thought you'd like to know... There's no N or L before the SS.

[LeicaTom]

My 1980s M4-2 has a sticker inside that says "ODIN - Service Gegarandeerd." The sticker is orange, and I can presume the camera was serviced at some time in the Netherlands.

I just thought you'd like to know... There's no N or L before the SS.

Very Kool!

Yes, we are all still trying to find out more history about the firm, anything added here is good news, maybe if it`s not too much trouble you can photograph the sticker and repost here :) ~ Thanks!

Tom

[PAN F]

Hi Tom,
Whats happened to your Kreigsmarine LEICA IIIc with the Xenon( One of only three).Have you accidentally deleted it from your signature.It was on your signature the other day but its not there now?

Also I have searched for your thread about the Leica IIIc Kreigsmarine which seems to have disappeared and also the interesting Leica IIIcK thread has also vanished.Whats happening - I'm puzzled?


1940 Leica IIIC N-L Odin Netherlands *early production*
1943"Kugellager" Leica IIIC K Grey Dark Red Shutter K *civilian issue*
(3)1945"Stepper" Leica IIIC's US Army issue w/ "Kugellager" shutters
(2)1946"Stepper" Leica IIIC's *late production*
1951 Leica IIFBD
1955 Canon IIF2 w/Rapidwinder
1957 Tower 35 w/Nikkor f2/50
1987 Leica M6 w/Canon f1.2/50

[LeicaTom]

Hi Tom,
Whats happened to your Kreigsmarine LEICA IIIc with the Xenon( One of only three).Have you accidentally deleted it from your signature.It was on your signature the other day but its not there now?

Also I have searched for your thread about the Leica IIIc Kreigsmarine which seems to have disappeared and also the interesting Leica IIIcK thread has also vanished.Whats happening - I'm puzzled?


1940 Leica IIIC N-L Odin Netherlands *early production*
1943"Kugellager" Leica IIIC K Grey Dark Red Shutter K *civilian issue*
(3)1945"Stepper" Leica IIIC's US Army issue w/ "Kugellager" shutters
(2)1946"Stepper" Leica IIIC's *late production*
1951 Leica IIFBD
1955 Canon IIF2 w/Rapidwinder
1957 Tower 35 w/Nikkor f2/50
1987 Leica M6 w/Canon f1.2/50


Hahahahha you must have copyed and pasted my signature on yours??????

Ohh there`s no mistake that the KM has been deleted, while I have SOLD the camera! (my close friends know that I don`t collect WW2 Leica`s that are Military engraved, so it`s since moved on......)

It is going to a private collection in Europe.

Ohh the signature will have hopefully two more rare beauties added to it very shortly ~ Stay Tuned!

Tom

[PAN F]

Tom,
I follow your threads with interest and was puzzled why I couldn't find any trace.I thought we had technical problems with the website.Thanks for letting me know.

[mgd711]

Why would that thread have been deleted?

I was quite interested in your story of the 'K' camera.

Is this forum heavily moderated?

[LeicaTom]

Why would that thread have been deleted?

I was quite interested in your story of the 'K' camera.

Is this forum heavily moderated?

I am still posting to my IIIC K thread, I will have a new post lateron today.....

The Kriegsmarine thread was deleted at the request of the new owner of the camera, and I respect his decision.

Does anyone have anything new about N-L`s to post here? ~ let`s not stray away from this threads topic too much..... :D

Tom

[mgd711]

Sorry it was O/T but just wanted to clear up that issue.

Your post's are getting interested in acquiring an older LTM Leica :)

[CLE-RF]

Tom,

it's been a while, but I have dug up the story in the "Foto Miele" sticker in one of your cameras (Which I presume you already sold on?!)

As I suggested in our correspondence, the sticker might have read "Foto Hiele" which is a more common name in Utrecht, The Netherlands.

This evening, I found this:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7899/101809.jpg

The link is here (http://www.hetutrechtsarchief.nl/collectie/beeldmateriaal/fotografische_documenten/1960-1970/101809). It is a newspaper picture from July 20th 1969, showing the building Lange Jansstraat 27 in Utrecht being demolished to allow for road reconstruction.

So, you might want to pass this on to the present owner. I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else ever stumbles upon a sticker "Foto Hiele" in a Barnack.

I'm still gathering intel on ODIN and might manage an article this fall. Progress is slow but certain.

[LeicaTom]

Tom,

it's been a while, but I have dug up the story in the "Foto Miele" sticker in one of your cameras (Which I presume you already sold on?!)

As I suggested in our correspondence, the sticker might have read "Foto Hiele" which is a more common name in Utrecht, The Netherlands.

This evening, I found this:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7899/101809.jpg

The link is here (http://www.hetutrechtsarchief.nl/collectie/beeldmateriaal/fotografische_documenten/1960-1970/101809). It is a newspaper picture from July 20th 1969, showing the building Lange Jansstraat 27 in Utrecht being demolished to allow for road reconstruction.

So, you might want to pass this on to the present owner. I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else ever stumbles upon a sticker "Foto Hiele" in a Barnack.

I'm still gathering intel on ODIN and might manage an article this fall. Progress is slow but certain.

"Foto Hiele" must have been it.....the first letter of the stamp was damaged on my old camera.......I kinda miss owning it, but it was in-op and needed lot`s of work to restore and I sold it for like 10 times what I paid for it, so it was overall a really good sale, I ended up with another IIIC K Grey in the deal.

I haven`t seen any decent N-L cameras offered in the marketplace for a while now......thanks for sharing that historical photograph.

Tom