View Full Version : I really tried, maybe its not for me? Quirkiness and other thoughts regarding FSU RF
tomperson
10-08-2008, 19:18
Ok,
I finally had a Zorki 4 in my hands. I had read about it and was eager to feel one. It surely looks nice, a beautiful camera. The lens, a Jupiter 8, was in great shape.
Now, i couldn't for the life of me imagine myself shooting with this camera. And this comes from a manual camera enthusiast.
Trying to remember not to change shutter speeds before cocking. Having to lift and move (in just certain direction) the shutter speed selector proved to be awkward and slow. Winding the film and cocking the shutter without a lever. The fragility of the mechanisms (in terms of having to do it in certain way to avoid damaging the camera) seemed way too much for me.
There may be something i'm not getting, so I'm here to ask the more experienced users how did they overcome all those problems and began shooting comfortably and in an agile fashion. I couldn't imagine myself taking a quick snap in rapidly changing situations with one of these cameras...
I feel sad. I really wanted to get into the FSU RF world. But maybe it's not for me.
Livesteamer
10-08-2008, 19:26
It takes patience. They are not cameras for rapid shooting. Treated with care they can deliver wonderful results. A Zorki costing $60, properly used, can deliver prints that are almost as good as from my Leica with expensive glass. It also takes a love for odd machinery and not being embarrased to be seen with an unfashionable camera. Good Luck. Joe
Don't feel bad. I have a Canonet and one of those old Med Format folders that I don't like because they seem a little too weird to me.
You can change the shutter speeds however you like with the Zorki, I don't know where you get this information. Like all Leica-similar RF's changing the speed without cocking the shutter is meaningless because the shutter speed indicator is not pointing at the right speed. My Zorki is no different from my Leica... except that my Zorki still doesn't work correctly.
BillBingham2
10-08-2008, 20:34
After sinking way too much money into the FSU road I bailed and moved to Nikon, glad I did. I tried a Fed-2, had it pimped up with a Fed-5 spool for easy loading, had it CLAed over in the former Eastern Block. Test roll I though looked good but the guy I sold it to said the shutter had problems. Split the cost of another fix with him and it still did not work well. The feel of the Fed-2 was wonderful as was the Kievs that I bought. I saw problem and traded them and some lenses for a used Bessa L.
I spent close to $750 total between purchase, lenses, CLAing and lots of shipping. IMHO they were a russian sink hole.
I plunked down $375 for a S2 and 50/1.4, got it CLAed and loved it. Never had a problem with her. Sold her when I got a S3-2000 and this will be the last camera I sell, she is a beauty. When I had to sell some cameras to generate some money for food and all I sold my Leica Ms, kept the S3-2000.
Every month or so I kick myself as I should have spent the initial investment on the FSU gear along with what I paid for the S2 and picked up a SP.
If you like twiddling with things, and some folks do a lot, keep going down the FSU trail, you will have a blast. I have no time, two kids, a wife and too much to do so to me time is a precious commodity.
Pick up an old Leica IIIa or IIc and send it over to Boston to get CLAed. It will cost you a LOT less in the long run.
YMMV, but I doubt it.
B2 (;->
Eh personally after owning an M3, then a ZI, I find the Zorkis to be pretty crappy in terms of build quality.
However, thats pretty obvious. I mean they were made cheaply and by the dozen out of crappy sheetmetal (just a generalization as to their material). In any case, it served me well the first few months I used it, and it did it's purpose... to take photos.
So in that regard it was a cheap and usable camera. However given a chance to use any old beat up M3, or M2 with a proper CLA i'd gladly use them anyday.
I don't really have any problem with my FSU cameras - I just seem to switch into a different mental mode when using them, and don't have to consciously remember to cock the shutter before changing speed.
Having said that, I don't have a Z4, but my Z4K is the cheapest-feeling one I have, and I never use it. FED-2 probably feels the nicest in the hand, but I like the FED-3b and Z6 a lot because of their solid lever winds (the lever wind on the Z4K feels like it'll bend if I move it).
But for elegance, the Z3M beats the lot - I think it's one of the best looking cameras ever made.
regarding the shutter/speeds:
http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-131.html
No, none of my FSU RF's have been "catched" or "wedged," whatever that is supposed to mean. Kiev 88's will be destroyed by changing the speeds on a non-cocked shutter, but not the rangefinders.
I've not owned a single FSU camera that didn't have problems. Some were easy to fix (adjusting RF in FED-5), but most are overall complete basket cases... and I get tired of chasing down one problem after another... somtimes it's just more fun to take photos.
oftheherd
10-08-2008, 23:11
Maybe FSU isn't. What have you been used to? I like my Kiev on occassion. But it is less easy for me to use than my Super Press23. I still haven't figured out why. Of course, it may just be a case of needing to get used to a different way of using cameras. Only you can tell ultimately. But be sure you are using RF to its best advantage before you just give up. Good luck.
I've not owned a single FSU camera that didn't have problems. Some were easy to fix (adjusting RF in FED-5), but most are overall complete basket cases... and I get tired of chasing down one problem after another.
That's an unfortunate experience. Of the eight FSU cameras I have, the only real problems I've had have been a pinhole in the shutter blind of my FED 3b (which was easily fixed), and sticking slow shutter speeds on my Z4K (which I haven't fixed) - so that's 7 good ones out of 8.
Oh, and on the speed-setting thing, before I knew about the requirement to cock the shutter before changing speed, I moved the shutter speed dial around on my first FED 2 before cocking it, and it then wouldn't work properly for a few shots afterwards - I wound and shot but the shutter wouldn't fire. Thankfully it cleared itself after a few attempts, and the camera is working fine to this day. So, I'm sure a lot of the shutters are more robust than many people think, and you probably can get away with it a lot of the time and won't necessarily damage the shutter, but you definitely *can* (if not necessarily will) cause it to jam.
Spyderman
10-09-2008, 00:41
Oh, and on the speed-setting thing, before I knew about the requirement to cock the shutter before changing speed, I moved the shutter speed dial around on my first FED 2 before cocking it,
No matter what the manuals say YOU CAN CHANGE SH.SPEED BEFORE COCKING ON CAMERAS WITHOUT SLOW SPEEDS. Only problem is, that the index mark doesn't point to the proper shutter speed, but once you cock the shutter, the dial turns and the mark again points to the correct speed...
Roger Hicks
10-09-2008, 00:53
They're... OK. But I had a Leica IIIa before I tried Zorkiis and have never understood the appeal of the latter. The IIIa cost me thirty quid (in about 1969) and I don't think I've ever paid less than fifteen quid for a Zorkii. To me, the Leica (which I still have) is easily worth twice as much.
I've fixed quite a few Zorkiis over the years -- if I find a broken one silly-cheap, I fix it and either give it away or swap it for something -- but I've never understood the adulation. I'd far rather have my Konica SIII ($15, I think) than any FSU camera I've ever owned.
After all, the purpose of photography is to take pictures, not to purify the soul through suffering.
Cheers,
R.
mcgrattan
10-09-2008, 03:00
I've owned several FSU screwmount RF cameras and now I own a Leica IIIc. The Leica is a much better built camera, but the FSU cameras served me well. In some respects I find my Zorki 2c easier to focus than the Leica -- the rangefinder spot is more clearly demarcated and a little easier to use in low light than the Leica although the Leica is much more pleasant to look through [it's sharper and brighter, it's just that the contrast between the rangefinder spot and the background is lower].
The lenses are fine, too. I've yet to really notice a big difference in quality (if any) between my Jupiter-8 and my Summitar.
Unlike many, I've almost never had a problem with my FSU cameras and I've consistently had good results from them. My only poor experience was with a Kiev which I broke when trying to put it back together after replacing some light seals. That was my own stupid mistake.
That said, many of the FSU cameras are cheaply made. They don't feel as nice in the hands and the viewfinders can be a bit small and squinty on the earlier ones. But I paid 130 quid for my Leica and about 10 quid for my Fed-4. So I don't feel short-changed.
No matter what the manuals say YOU CAN CHANGE SH.SPEED BEFORE COCKING ON CAMERAS WITHOUT SLOW SPEEDS.
Hmm, that's interesting - my FED 2 shutter did jam and it took me 5 or 6 attempts at winding and shooting to free it. Maybe mine was faulty, or dirty or something, and it was just coincidence - but it has worked fine since.
oftheherd
10-09-2008, 04:36
...
After all, the purpose of photography is to take pictures, not to purify the soul through suffering.
Cheers,
R.
You knew, and you're just now telling us?!!
:D :D
pinafore2
10-09-2008, 04:50
I absolutely love my FSU-gear, it has provided so much entertainment, even from before i bought it:
The search on the internet.
The actual buying the stuff.
Would it arrive ?
Would it work ?
And then:
The first roll of film
The experiments ...
But i got an old FED-2 a couple of months ago, it looked fine and i have tried it, but as you can see on the photo it was to slow to catch the details of the feries flying around the flowers in my garden.
Per
pinafore2
10-09-2008, 05:15
Forgive my speling, i ment the Fairies flying in my garden.
I like FSU cameras. Some more than others ... I've never really enjoyed my Kievs, but love my Fed2 and Fed3. All of mine have worked reasonably well, as well as any 30 or 50 year old camera could be expected to work. I think they're still an affordable way into rangefinders. I bought my Fed-3 for $25, then spent about $80 on a CLA and shutter replacement. Now it works flawlessly, and, other than the awful rewind knob, is a real joy to use. My Leica III was about $300, without a lens, and it needed a CLA within a month or two.
shadowfox
10-09-2008, 08:49
I like FSU cameras *because* they are quirky. Note that I am not a tinkerer at all, I'm all thumbs, no repair skills at all beyond cleaning triplet lenses on folders. So how do I get by with FSU cameras? luck? maybe.
I have a total of five encounters with FSU cameras, now I own three, all working just fine. Off the other two, only one I sell (also working just fine), and the other I returned to the seller because the removable spool is slipping.
YMMV indeed :)
But when they are working fine, they are extremely fun to use, especially my Zorki 1, it looks like a Leica IIIc but not quite there, also fun to explain to digital camera shooters ;)
DanOnRoute66
10-09-2008, 09:25
The only FSU cameras I use are Kiev rangefinders, so I can't speak to the issues with the Zorkis. As with any used items you need to look at them carefully or, if buying online, do some homework on reputable dealers. Generally I find the Kievs to be a lower-cost alternative to highly collectible Contax bodies for using my Contax RF-mount lenses, even given the declining value of the U.S. dollar. I now own three brands of camera bodies in the Contax RF mount -- Contax, Kiev and a newer Voigtlander, the R2C -- that take five brands of lenses -- Carl Zeiss, Helios, Jupiter, Nikkor and Voigtlander -- and they are all generally interchangeable. The exception is the wide-angle FSU lenses, which will only fit on the Kiev cameras.
wlewisiii
10-09-2008, 09:54
Don't sweat it. Not every camera is for everyone. I'm fond of Contax & Canon cameras so, like Dan, the only FSU gear I use is Kiev. My glass is a mix of FSU & CZJ and I'm very happy with it.
Find what you enjoy & burn film. Life's too short for anything else.
William
FSU range finders certainly are a bit of an acquired taste, but once you get hooked...On top of letting us discover what millions of people beyond the Iron curtain were using for years, they've got this retro feel that must appeal to quite a lot of us modern day users. I guess they just provide another approach to photography. Makes you feel just that slightly different when you tote one around along with a soviet light meter. The same applies to TLRs or folders. You don't handle them the same way, the feed back is from another era. A welcome break from easy to use quick result high quality digital gear. Just love my Kiev 4 and FED-2 even if my Oly 35rc and QL17 are a lot easier to use...;)
I bought a Zorki 4 n the 70s in Uk .
It seemed like both an inexpensive '' Leica style '' experience and the mystigue of a camera from behind the '' Iron Curtain ''
I hated it . I bought another recently ... and still think it's a brick .
I am now fortunate enough to be able to use a Leica II , Leica IIIC , but love taking out my Zorki 1 , Zorki S , and my Kievs .
OK , the Leicas are much '' better '' cameras , no argument , but the Russkies are such fun !
Experiences are very different...my grandpa bought a Zorki 4 in '69 (a 50 years of soviet government anniversary model). As I was born in '74, this is probably the first camera I have seen, certainly the first I held, it's been with me all my life, and guess what, I still own it. NEVER been CLAd, NEVER got stuck,or had any problems whatsoever..and it's 40 years old.
Over the years got some more FSU cameras, some excellent, some with problems. Let's just remember that this gizmos cost less than a Leica lens cap. so what to expect?
Is the 3000 & body with 2000$ lens with a 100$ neck strap and a 150$ leather case superior in terms of build quality and reliability and I don't know which other terms, to a 50$ all including FSU.....c'mon...what are we talking about??
Dear Tomperson,
When I first read the title of your post, I thought you are going to protest the alledged low quality of the FSU cameras, and I was even going to agree with you to a considerable margin.
However to my great surprise you are the first person I am aware of protesting the unfriendly manipulation of the cameras. This seems to comfirm that your Zorki is not damaged - quite a good start.
Now there is nothing wrong with your feeling, it is perfectly legitimate and may reflect what most of the people may feel if given these cameras.
There has been a lot of extremism between those backing these cameras and those opposing their use. As a result a great deaf dialogue has taken place, leading to much misunderstanding both inside and outside RFF.
You are fully ok tomperson. If you feel these cameras do not appeal to you just let them pass in peace and don't feel annoyed by the hurras and eurekas by me and other strange birds which have digged a lot to save some dollarettas.
Cheers,
Ruben
hks3sgte
10-09-2008, 16:21
I love my FSU rangefinders. I would LOVE a Canon rangefinder, but they're too expensive. The FSU cameras allow me to have a compact camera that I can take anywhere and just take pictures without spending a lot of money. And that, in a sense, is what owning a Soviet camera is all about... (???)
-doomed-
10-09-2008, 16:38
I jumped ship too, i just bought a bessa r2a .
I am probably using FSU glass for a bit , but I didnt have time to really give my kiev 4 the right amount of attention so im selling it.
If i had the the time to dedicate to repairing it im sure it wouldve been a decent shooter, hopefully someone can enjoy it .
ItsReallyDarren
10-09-2008, 21:00
Funny thing, I started out with a Canonet 28 and moved up to a Canonet QL17 G-III. I used that as my primary 35mm shooter since moving away from SLR's. Ever since I picked up a Fed-2 I haven't really used my G-III, I keep it around as my low light shooter loaded with Tri-X pushed to 1600 with a ND4 filter.
I really like the using Fed-2, it gives a very old world feel and puts me in a different mindset. The feel of the pictures come out noticeably different than when I use the G-III. What I like about using the Fed is that I have to make each shots count, because the loading, winding, setting, focusing, even rewinding takes longer.
But I like the argument that using FSU are like driving old Jaguars, you love'em to death but they drive you crazy when using them.
A nice Retina will have much better build and a better, probably faster, lens and will cost about the same delivered in the USA as a modest FSU rangefinder, but the Retina is even more fiddly :)
pinafore2
10-10-2008, 05:17
An other shot with the FED show the problem.
Theese faults with the shutter curtain is not visible with the eye.
An other shot with the FED show the problem.
Theese faults with the shutter curtain is not visible with the eye.
Holes in the shutter for certain. Looks bad enought to merit a new shutter. Fortunately there are still people who do that work. Try Oleg at:
http://www.okvintagecamera.com/
People who like tinkering with cameras like FSU's a lot. People who like taking pictures, well... I have 6 FSU's. None of them work right. 3 Fed-3's have been serviced by a well regarded technician and all still leak light like a sieve. The Zorki-4 recently had the rewind release give up during a shoot, tearing the film off the cassette spindle during rewind. The Fed-2's are OK in moderate light in a case, but leak light if taken naked into the bright of day.
Now, my 111C - great. M2, CLA'd by Youxin Ye - perfect. My (evil slr) Pentax MX's - don't miss a beat.
The "don't move the shutter dial till you rewund" is not the big deal - cameras that leak light and don't work is, IMHO, the downer.
However, I have been very happy with my FSU lenses - a j-12 and a j-3 need collimating, and are good after. All together I have about a dozen FSU lenses that I am very happy with.
KenD
FSU cameras, like all other old cameras are not for heavy duty pro work due to their age, like any other old camera.
FSU cameras need either you take the screwdriver or send them for an overall, or accept to use them in partial capacity.
But in case you have the patience to handle the screwdriver and learn your model - endless honey will flow - unavailable in the formal markets, and challenging the convenience of buying new from the factory current cameras.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that a Kiev you have CLA-ed yourself, is more worth than a new Zeiss Ikon. But I am saying that after you do CLA your Kiev, you will have such a jewel that will make you think for a long time if you are to pay over a thousand bucks for a better camera. And the Zeiss Ikon is a better camera. This dilemma will turn unbearable if you are used to two bodies.
Cheers,
Ruben
...........
I've fixed quite a few Zorkiis over the years -- if I find a broken one silly-cheap, I fix it and either give it away or swap it for something -- but I've never understood the adulation. I'd far rather have my Konica SIII ($15, I think) than any FSU camera I've ever owned.
After all, the purpose of photography is to take pictures, not to purify the soul through suffering.
Cheers,
R.
Dear Roger,
Pitxu post has called for my attention your post, with which I would like to friendly disagree in such a path that will bring us to agree against all odds.
I have suffered for several years the torture of learning to CLA the Kievs. For those who are new at RFF I would like to clarify that by that time, many things were not of public knowledge and I had to discover them myself with the help of the friends of this subforum, including some that are not anymore here.
What I have got in return ? Control over the Kievs equals having a great camera for so long as film lasts. Thus for example in case tomorrow a drunk thief enters my home and takes all my Kievs and lenses - in exchange of very few money I will lift my fleet again.
Could you thinik about it if we were talking about an expensive camera ?
Now you compare the Zorkis with the exquisite Konica Auto S2, from which I own two models. Hmmm.... but you are cheating a bit Roger :) (kindly smile with me) because the Zorkis, the Feds, the Kievs and other FSU models are modular system cameras enabling lens exchange with plenty of accesories.
Perhaps you personally doesn't need to change lenses. That's fine, but the potential is there in the FSUs, not in the Konica - with all due respect to this great camera.
Lastly I would like to take issue about "the purpose of photography". My opinion is that to define this purpose as "to take pictures" is not bad, but not the most comprehensive.
In the past I have defended the right of the camera fixer enjoying his job, as part of the photography world. Besides him there is the darkroom worker, the collectionist, the camera or photography history writer, etc, etc.
And all of us in this all embracing world will have to suffer to some extent, in order to learn and latter enjoy the purified fruits of our learning.
I am almost sure we are in full agreement, and you would have been the writer of this post, in case I had been the writer of yours.
Cheers,
Ruben
David Murphy
10-11-2008, 18:34
I've owned (and own) many FSU rangefinders and I'd not recommend them for beginners at all. They are problem-ridden in general, although good and useful examples do exist. They are not by-in-large robust cameras for use, more novelties in my view and they do challenge the user's skill and patience levels.
For starting in rangefinders I'd strongly recommend a Bessa R ($180 or so on eBay). If that's too expensive try a Canon QL 17 ($60 or so) or Konica S2 ($30-40). There are other good choices, like the Canon P or 7 ($150-$250). Many of the Yashica fixed lens models are favored here, the ones with faster lenses being among the best.
CCCPcamera
10-11-2008, 18:50
Dude, you just have to chill. It isn't about being fast and simple like with a leica or voigtlander or something man, it's an experience all unto it's own. I had a kiev 4, it died, but while I had it it was a blast ad got some of the best pictures I have ever taken. They are old cameras and you just have to take a step back and appreciate them for what they are. After all you can't expect the performance and ergonomics of a 1300 $ camera from one you probably bought for around 40 $...can you? Just have fun.
An other shot with the FED show the problem.
Theese faults with the shutter curtain is not visible with the eye.
Yep, that's a shutter curtain full of holes.
I'm really surprised you say it's not visible to the eye - that has to be visible if you hold it up to the light. Is it possible you're looking at the wrong curtain? You need to check both (ie with the shutter both cocked and uncocked) - it's impossible to know which blind it is by just looking at the photo.
pinafore2
10-12-2008, 12:58
There is no doubt that the holes in the shutter-curtain is in what i would call the first curtain, hereby i mean the curtain that is visible when the shutter is cocked. The holes is very tiny and their exposure to the film is highly dependant on the light conditions and the time of exposure. The attached image, being not very good, is only included to show a picture that is taken with the same camera, but in the evening and the shutter wound just before shooting. The spots from the holes barely visible.
The other picture was taken on a bright day and i remember there was long periods waiting with the camera ready (wound) for the right moment to shoot, when the boats came closer. (The picture i show here was actually the last i took that day, tired of waiting and just to release the shutter)
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.