View Full Version : Does Leica need money? (M8 horror)
reinierv
09-27-2008, 07:44
Last summer I took my M8 to greenland. It took some amazing shoots in the first 5 days and I was quit happy. Then came a day it started to rain. So wisely I decided to put the M8, that was in a side-pocket on the belt of my backpack, inside the backpack, between dry cloths. When we came back to camp, it proved that some condensation was present on the camera and the camera was dead. I tried to revive it by drying it in the sun the next few days, but it remained dead. Luckely I also brought an M6 as back-up, just in case the batteries of the M8 would have run out. I had to shoot the remaining 2 weeks with the M6. A guy with the 400D and kitlens who was less carefull with his camera than I was had a smile on his face the rest of the tour
As the camera was only 8 months old I returned it to Leica when I came home, expecting waranty as other M8's survided worse treatment I read on the web. I send it together with a well cared for, always filter mounted 50mm summy to have it coded.
To my ashtonisment Leica came back to me: M8: waterdamage, cost 3340euro, yes your read correctly 3340euro. My god, that is almost the price of a new one. What will they do, just screw the serial number on another body and take a big profit??? I had some mail conversation with them, but got only 1 short mail. We see waterdamage (some pictures attached of 2 components with green corrosion on them), we have no weatherseals, so no waranty. After that no more responses. Even the importer (transcontinenta) was stunned by a) the price quote and b) the attitude of Leica in this case.
Accoridng to Leica the summy was havily used with severe wear on the glass, over 500 euro's of cost. I had an expert look at it and he told me that beside some paint wear the summi was in great condition.
Fortunaly I was insured and they paid for the camera. But they are so anoyed by Leica that anyone in the Netherlands now wanting to insure an M8 can not cover it for waterdamage as they are "fed up with the way Leica expects us to clean up their mess". Now what is going on here. Does Leica need money fast? Over the backs of their existing users? Did the S2 development cost too much? I don't know but it is not what I expected from a reputed company
I'm love RF photogrtaphy, too bad Nikon's RF did not come at the Kina as rumours said. But I sure will not buy a new M8, maybe a used one.
Wasn't this discussed in detail already?
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/60525-m8-greenland.html
Cheers,
Uwe
tmfabian
09-27-2008, 12:17
i never expect any digital device to survive in rain. I have taken my cameras out in thunderstorms but I always cover them in big clear ziplock bags with a hole cut in it for the lens to poke out and some rubber bands.(clear so that I can still focus with the RF patch), but I would never expect a warranty to cover something the camera wasn't designed for.
Wasn't this discussed in detail already?
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/60525-m8-greenland.html
Cheers,
Uwe
yup. This will be the third Forum to my knowledge that Reiner has chosen to whinge on. He hasn't got much sympathy on the others either.
Regards,
Bill
Petroleum V. Nasby
09-27-2008, 12:42
I bet you dropped the camera and lens in the water, you big faker.
reinierv
09-27-2008, 13:33
correct, it proved to be 2810 ex tax (19%)
and will post it every where I can...Actually the leica forum is the only one which was ofcourse not completely sympathatic...what do you expect in the house of the lion
But even there there is sympathy
And even there they are suprised Leica did not respond as could be expected. Other M8's are treated far worse than mine and survived so the conclusion is justified that mine had a problem.
a 4K pro camera, intened for street (read outdoor) use, should be able to withstand this. This was not severe conditions. On dpreview there is an interview with Leica representatives that state that Leica has high-quality product that can deal with bad conditions.
I had a cynical laugh...
Lets beat the dead horse to death again......
Squeaky wheel ... grease.
hunghang
09-27-2008, 14:36
Wasn't this discussed in detail already?
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/60525-m8-greenland.html
Cheers,
Uwe
So???? I am sure I've seen members from here post at other forums with their same stories - word for word.
Why pick on this one? Is it because it's another anti-M8 thread?
I found this post quite interesting and thanks to the OP for his story. I am sure every story has (at least) 2 versions, but I don't mind reading any.
tmfabian
09-27-2008, 15:12
If nothing else, this thread should emphasize just how important having equipment insurance really is. In today's world, every business is trying to save money some how and in any way and will often times find ways to bypass the warranty and make some extra money (i'm saying this about all companies, not attacking leica)
fdigital
09-27-2008, 16:36
i never expect any digital device to survive in rain. I have taken my cameras out in thunderstorms but I always cover them in big clear ziplock bags with a hole cut in it for the lens to poke out and some rubber bands.(clear so that I can still focus with the RF patch), but I would never expect a warranty to cover something the camera wasn't designed for.
You guys should meet the olympus E-3.
http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20071016/e3_blog_540x434.jpg
Mine showers with me.
Not all of us visit every forum. Just because it's old news to you doesn't mean the rest of us are aware of it.
No excuses for a camera this expensive to be so utterly vulnerable to the elements. :(
tmfabian
09-27-2008, 16:51
I remember seeing footage of a Nikon D something or other being run under a tap to get salt water off it! :p
Actually when you look at how simple a design the M series are it wouldn't have been so hard to weather seal the M8?
it really shouldn't have been. And why the deuce didn't they think to offer weather sealing of electronics to the upgrade package...that's far more useful than some lousy vulcanite covering upgrade.
sunsworth
09-27-2008, 16:52
It's here too...
http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00QzFD
and here...
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=29503587
astroman
09-27-2008, 17:04
If that was me Id be totally PISSED.Big dollars spent on an camera like this. Should it be kept in a glass case?I think not.Leica should be more helpful.Do they want to drive their market down even farther with this kind of behavior.
Here's the answer:
Everyone needs one. ;)
shimo-kitasnap
09-27-2008, 17:08
didn't they fire Steven K. Lee because of the horrendous f*%^-up the M8 was? No weather sealing, no internal IR filter, ridiculous price tag for something the big boys at canon and nikon could do with weather sealing for less than half the price.
They've screwed the pooch. Late getting on the digital band wagon, not putting out a system camera until the DMC L-1 and soon after the M8, poor ISO performance, lenses priced way out of the market. And now they're going to release the S2 and expect people shooting Blads and Mamiyas to go for it?
Yeah they need money big time, if the S2 fails, I think that will be it for leica.....
BillBingham2
09-27-2008, 17:11
Like many of the others here, I do not traverse or lurk on other sites. I'm very happy to see the post here as I would never have know what a special company Leica has become.
To answer the question, yes they do need the money. These days who doesn't.
I am very sad to see that Leica responded to him after he purchased their flagship. It does show the complexity that is digital cameras these days.
Perhaps the 8.6 will have reasonable weather seals?!?
Thanks for the post and I hope Leica gets their head screwed on straight soon. While I have moved away from Leicas, IMHO another nail in the coffin.
B2 (;->
Your story does not seem to be as simple as you told it. I doubt condensation could have caused this. I have been in plenty of sub freezing taxi cabs in Thailand and then step out into hot and humid streets I can see and feel condensations all over my gear. Sometimes I am prepared and have them in plastic bags but on many occasions I simply don't. Unless the guts in the camera also experience rapid temperature change which in my experience really do not at least not in the circumstances you described the wetness is only superficial.
But how difficult is it to have the most rudimentary weather sealing on the M8?
jonmanjiro
09-27-2008, 18:35
I do most of my camera forum browsing here, so its the first time for me to hear of this. If it was me, I'd be pissed off and plenty motivated to spread my story all over the internet as well. Assuming the OP is telling us the whole truth of course ...
fdigital
09-28-2008, 03:12
I remember seeing footage of a Nikon D something or other being run under a tap to get salt water off it! :p
Actually when you look at how simple a design the M series are it wouldn't have been so hard to weather seal the M8?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oDvgDDmSDE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv2oR_RzIR4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmoskUtCnoY&feature=related
Wouldn't try that with a nikon!
If facts are accurately stated, than this is a thread worth reading and remembering. That condensation can put a M8 out of business is one thing, Leica's way of dealing with the technical issue another.
Again, if true, I don't like either of the two!
reinierv
09-28-2008, 08:02
I will take any bet that I can not provide written statements from tour members that this story is accurate, if needed.
Yes, I'm amazed too that my beloved M8 failed on me due to condensation but I'm even more shocked by the behavior of Leica on this matter. That the ducth insurance companies no longer want to insure M8s against this situation is clear enough for anyone with doubts.
for those who follow more fora...you still missed 2 :D
Your story does not seem to be as simple as you told it. I doubt condensation could have caused this. I have been in plenty of sub freezing taxi cabs in Thailand and then step out into hot and humid streets I can see and feel condensations all over my gear.
And for that reason I strongly believe something was wrong with my m8 and it should have been repaired under waranty.
Don't get me wrong, my loss is minimal due to the insurance. I'm simply pissed of by Leica's behavior. I was in contact with a shopowner yesterday and he said to me that this wasn;t a case alone. He expirienced more cases where waranty would have been applicable where Leica found an excuse not to replace the camera...
fdigital
09-28-2008, 08:43
Either way, I think it's really pathetic that a 5K digital camera of German build - supposed to be a top shelf product isn't sealed in any way.
The canon 5d is the same, however I'd say it's less susceptible to moisture due to being an SLR. Plus is literally under half the price.
Condensation is certain death to electronic components. I would much rather have rain dampen my gear than condensation. Condensation is a result of humidity and you can't see it happening on the inside. It will eat a circuit board in a hartbeat. BTW Apple Imac's have had bad problems with condensation. Don't belive me? google condensation & Imac and spend the next few hours reading the horror stories.
gnarayan
09-28-2008, 10:21
Wouldn't try that with a nikon!
oh it gets better -
http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/01/how-weather-proof-is-e-3.html
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=24206724
I really wish they'd weather seal some of their smaller models as well because much as I liked the E3 it was too large for my taste.
Unfortunately many companies are using the "water damage" excuse because consumers really can't disprove it. What is more, they are now many times taking active steps to preemptively void warranties in this way.
My mother's ThinkPad laptop died on her, and I looked at it for her, taking it apart as shown on the IBM (now Lenovo) web site, taking the keyboard out etc. None of the things they suggested fixed it, so I had her send it in, as it was under warranty. They called back a week later and told her that liquid had been spilled in the computer, hence the warranty was void and it would be about $1000 to fix the $1000 laptop.
Anyway, I made it very clear to them that I had seen the inside of the computer - there was no water damage or any evidence of anything ever being spilled on it. They then told us that they have an indicator built into the computer (some chemical thing evidently) that tells them that it has been exposed to moisture.
Obviously brilliant, because any machine that has been through a summer in the midwest has been exposured to enough humidity to cause the indicator read "moisture" and void the warranty, even though it was through no fault of the consumer and did not in any way contribute to the failure of the device.
Eventually the laptop was fixed, but the whole experience does leave a bad taste in one's mouth.
photomoof
09-28-2008, 11:26
This is a funny thread.
The M8 is very expensive because it is a handmade camera. It is not a particularly sophisticated camera, or a well built one. It is not in any way waterproof.
It is an attempt to build a digital rangefinder with almost no sales, compared to regular production Japanese cameras, and it is very successful in doing that if you ask me.
The fact that there was mold growing inside...
Keeping a camera in damp cloth is a sure way to ruin it. I recently stuck a cell phone in my waist on a bike ride, when I got home just my body heat and mosture had filled the phone with water, to the extent that when I took off the cover there where huge drops in the corners of the case. I can only imagine what the humidity was like inside a backpack full of wet clothes. Worse than a rain forrest.
This is a funny thread.
The M8 is very expensive because it is a handmade camera. It is not a particularly sophisticated camera, or a well built one. It is not in any way waterproof.
It is an attempt to build a digital rangefinder with almost no sales, compared to regular production Japanese cameras, and it is very successful in doing that if you ask me.
The fact that there was mold growing inside...
Keeping a camera in damp cloth is a sure way to ruin it. I recently stuck a cell phone in my waist on a bike ride, when I got home just my body heat and mosture had filled the phone with water, to the extent that when I took off the cover there where huge drops in the corners of the case. I can only imagine what the humidity was like inside a backpack full of wet clothes. Worse than a rain forrest.
About 2 years ago a waitress poured about half a cup of hot coffee into/over my Treo. Miraculously , after a few days, it worked flawlessy. It is not clear to me why electronics of a camera should be that much more sensitive than those of smartphones.
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 11:57
correct, it proved to be 2810 ex tax (19%)
and will post it every where I can...Actually the leica forum is the only one which was ofcourse not completely sympathatic...what do you expect in the house of the lion
But even there there is sympathy
And even there they are suprised Leica did not respond as could be expected. Other M8's are treated far worse than mine and survived so the conclusion is justified that mine had a problem.
a 4K pro camera, intened for street (read outdoor) use, should be able to withstand this. This was not severe conditions. On dpreview there is an interview with Leica representatives that state that Leica has high-quality product that can deal with bad conditions.
I had a cynical laugh...
Why don't you try buying an Audi Quattro, hook a camper to it, and try to drive it up a rugged, dry mountain. When your transmission breaks, don't forget to act all surprised and shocked at the repair estimate.
Now that we've all suspended belief, I wonder what will happen if I jam a bagel in the toaster, turn it on, and try to pry it out with a silver knife. I'll remember to get my hands wet. Other people have used toasters with frozen waffles, so why can't I fiddle with it?
tmfabian
09-28-2008, 12:00
About 2 years ago a waitress poured about half a cup of hot coffee into/over my Treo. Miraculously , after a few days, it worked flawlessy. It is not clear to me why electronics of a camera should be that much more sensitive than those of smartphones.
Luck. That's about all I can attribute any electronics surviving exposure to liquid.
like photomoof up yonder, I too have had phones die from just the moisture in my pocket and i've also had them survive after i've been thrown into a swimming pool. I've even had a laptop keyboard die after a drop of water from my beard fell into the cracks. It's all luck, whether it be of the good or bad variety.
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 12:00
About 2 years ago a waitress poured about half a cup of hot coffee into/over my Treo. Miraculously , after a few days, it worked flawlessy. It is not clear to me why electronics of a camera should be that much more sensitive than those of smartphones.
About four years ago my cat fell from a third floor balcony when he stepped onto a hanging pot. He survived. If my cat survived, I can't understand why a bulldog should be more sensitive to gravity than my cat.
tmfabian
09-28-2008, 12:11
About four years ago my cat fell from a third floor balcony when he stepped onto a hanging pot. He survived. If my cat survived, I can't understand why a bulldog should be more sensitive to gravity than my cat.
holy mackerel you're on point today Gabriel... excellent work. :)
About four years ago my cat fell from a third floor balcony when he stepped onto a hanging pot. He survived. If my cat survived, I can't understand why a bulldog should be more sensitive to gravity than my cat.
Any proof that the bulldog would not survive:p
RuedigerMerz
09-28-2008, 15:48
reinierv,
Who from Leica told you that it is not covered under warranty and that it costs 3340 Euro? Did you receive a written quote?
Thanks,
Rudy
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 16:04
Any proof that the bulldog would not survive:p
You can try your own experiments, if you wish. But that would be animal cruelty, as some dim-witted people have proved (http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/29825059.html?elr=KArksUUUU).
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 16:05
holy mackerel you're on point today Gabriel... excellent work. :)
Sometimes I have the time :angel: :eek: ;)
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 16:12
The cat was given, or evolved, physiological traits that allow it to survive such an incident!
I know. But many people can't understand that a tool was made with different specs and uses in mind. They're also the same that would complain about the inability of scissors to cut through glass. Or that duct tape couldn't possibly be any worse than a band-aid to cover a burst blister.
They call us "elitists" with medical degrees if we point out how misguided those beliefs are. :cool:
ThatOneGuy
09-28-2008, 16:44
I can't believe that there are people who are actually defending Leica here. Assuming this story is true, which I have no reason to doubt, this is absolutely ridiculous. Leica touts the M8 as a serious photojournalists' camera and as an equal to the film Ms. What kind of photojournalist will never end up shooting in a rain storm, much less a little humidity? As for the people commenting about how vulnerable electronics are to moisture, why can other camera manufacturers produce weather sealed bodies for a third the price? Ok, the M8 is more expensive because it's hand made, but that should make it *higher* quality not lower. "Hand made" should be a mark of good craftsmanship, not an excuse for a substandard product.
This isn't a matter of using the wrong tool for the job, it's a matter of the tool not being up to the job it's being sold to do. Of course I can understand people fervently defending a camera that they spent a ludicrous amount of money on regardless of how big of a failure it might be, that's just human nature.
fdigital
09-28-2008, 16:45
It should be weathersealed. I make no excuse for thinking that. It's what.... a few dollars in r&d and a couple of cents for some rubber gaskets that can be popped in when assembling?
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 16:46
... but I'm not about to drown my camera and send it to them to make my point!
LOL. I think we'd be surprised at the number of people who'd do just that. Or would we?
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 16:50
I can't believe that there are people who are actually defending Leica here.
I'm not "defending" Leica. I hope you don't think that when people get shot in the movies is truly what is happening to them. If so, I can't help you nor begin to explain where the point of my posts are (were).
My cat also sometimes thinks that when I whistle there's a bird in the house.
Journeyman
09-28-2008, 16:53
It's not rocket science. Humidity will kill any non-waterproof electronic device. Caveat emptor!
Gabriel M.A.
09-28-2008, 17:00
it proved that some condensation was present on the camera and the camera was dead. I tried to revive it by drying it in the sun the next few days, but it remained dead.
This was not "rain pouring on the camera". Something happened inside that backpack, and very likely moisture saturation got mixed with something else inside that bag, which caused undue corrosion. Corrosion doesn't immediately happen in less than half a day by "rainwater alone"; there must be a catalyst. Oxidizing catalysts are...if you don't mind the redundancy...corrosive.
Without knowing the specific facts, we can only reach biased conclusions.
In my experience, this sort of thing doesn't happen due to moisture alone. The must have been something else in that environment. I'm thinking salt or some edible acid was involved in all of this, not a simple case of "shooting in a rain storm, much less a little humidity".
Just wondering... has Leica responded directly on RFF or the other forums about this matter?
I think I have "heard" enough from the "prosecutor's" point of view, and I would like to hear something from the defendant's side.
Maybe from someone in Leica's technical servicing department or the like?
Journeyman
09-28-2008, 17:30
Leica has already spoken for themselves. They put it in writing in the warranty.
reinierv
09-28-2008, 23:06
reinierv,
Who from Leica told you that it is not covered under warranty and that it costs 3340 Euro? Did you receive a written quote?
Yes I did
You know I agree...one should not compare. Were talking M8 here. But as stated by others the M8 in posted as a superieur tool for outdoor (journalist) use. Image quality in the lower iso's is great and I stunned a 5D owner with them. No argument there.
If I would have drowned the M8, I wouls have go boohoo and go to the insurance company.
Come to think of it...it is pretty odd that this forum has a special topic called "M8 problems"
BTW this are pictures of the damage. this is not the result of a water ballet
http://www.fotoapparatuur.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=32
http://www.fotoapparatuur.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=31
Only looking at these photos (and without having read the story behind it) my guess would be salt water corrosion caused by an electric current through some of the contacts (because not all parts are oxidized). Since the electronic parts are inside the camera, I could imagine that water (from rain drops) diluted some salt residues (either from the camera surface or the clothes were the camera was wrapped into), which made their way into the camera.
(Just my thoughts being a physical chemist / electrochemist)
Probably a silly idea but why don’t they just spray the finished components with a thin coat of lacquer?
Probably a silly idea but why don’t they just spray the finished components with a thin coat of lacquer?
It would be good for protection but difficult to un-soldier / re-soldier parts if necessary. Also, it looks like that these are flexible circuit boards, lacquer might not be stable when bending these for mounting / unmounting purposes.
It would be good for protection but difficult to un-soldier / re-soldier parts if necessary. Also, it looks like that these are flexible circuit boards, lacquer might not be stable when bending these for mounting / unmounting purposes.
A few seconds removing it before working on the board seems as small price to pay compared to the alternative.
shiro_kuro
09-29-2008, 02:08
Spraying lacquer on the internal parts of an M8 .... could this be a DIY weather sealing option ? How hard is it to take an M8 apart ?
Spraying lacquer on the internal parts of an M8 .... could this be a DIY weather sealing option ? How hard is it to take an M8 apart ?
Why not simply carrying a plastic rain-cover bag (~ 20 bucks, plenty different models / sizes available) or shopping bag (convenient store) and protect camera AND lens ?
Right.
1. Can someone please point out to me where Leica says that the M8, or indeed the M7 or MP are weather- or waterproof?
2. Can the OP provide PDFs or simple .jpgs of the correspondance from Leica?
3. Can the OP provide similar where an as yet un-named insurance company has changed it's entire policy on the strength of this one incident?
4. Can someone explain the sense to me of allowing a piece of electronic equipment to get wet then wrapping it for an unspecified period of time in damp clothing in a rucksack in a humid environment?
5. Can someone explain to me why Leica is "guilty" when their product has been used in a way for which it was not certified or intended?
Regards,
Bill
RuedigerMerz
09-29-2008, 10:38
Bill, I second that.
I would like to see those correspondence with Leica too. And of course the name of the insurance company. I don't think that my insurance company, which is Chubb, would behave like that.
Rudy
photomoof
09-29-2008, 10:54
Yes I did
You know I agree...one should not compare. Were talking M8 here. But as stated by others the M8 in posted as a superieur tool for outdoor (journalist) use. Image quality in the lower iso's is great and I stunned a 5D owner with them. No argument there.
If I would have drowned the M8, I wouls have go boohoo and go to the insurance company.
Come to think of it...it is pretty odd that this forum has a special topic called "M8 problems"
BTW this are pictures of the damage. this is not the result of a water ballet
I have seen a lot of water damaged cameras, and electronics, and that is NOT simple fresh water damage. That is salt, most likely from clothing. Fresh water can short out electronics, or rust shutters, it does not build up in large salt clusters.
People really underestimate body salts. I have seen bicycle top tubes completely rotted through by salt from sweat dripping on the paint, when bikes are used indoors as trainers.
My guess is the m8 might survive a quick dunking in fresh water, but would never survive inside a humid backpack full of salt.
photogdave
09-29-2008, 11:46
People really underestimate body salts. I have seen bicycle top tubes completely rotted through by salt from sweat dripping on the paint, when bikes are used indoors as trainers.
Very true! I went trekking in Nepal wearing my Domke photo vest under my back pack for three weeks straight. At the end of the trip there were huge salt stains on the back of the vest that made it look like I was trying to tie-dye it with bleach. Some of the snaps were corroded too.
reinierv
09-29-2008, 13:10
The insurance name company your are allowed to know: KBRbeheer int he netherlands
No I'm not going to post the conversation with Leica, what to do think you can gain on that? They send me a mail, its waterdamage, tough luck no waranty, repair cost 3340. On my reponse on how the camera was treated no more replies.
No it was not packed into damp clothes, it was packed into dry clothes. We were 5 days under way in the tour, still lots of clean shirts then ;-)
No that is not salt, we already determined it is water corrosion on components under power. It is bad luck the droplets were created on parts that were under power. And it ofcourse took 3 weeks to get how again and ship it. Time enough for corrosion to continue to form.
And for all you thomassen out their with the true Leica believers heart: I will still take any bet that I can not come up with written statements by tour members on how the camera was treated. And no, I dont have them now, because it was not required for the insurance, but put in a right bet, and I will take care I get them...
RuedigerMerz
09-29-2008, 13:31
reinierv,
I am not one of the 'true Leica believers' you are mention, I actually don't believe in anything. I know something or I don't.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As simple as that.
Thanks,
Rudy
Zenjitsuman
09-29-2008, 14:56
I am an EE, condensation should not short a board that was wave soldered and has gold contacts if the board has a suitable surface coating covering the traces. I have seen acid in solder react with liquids but not condensation.
I know two things about selling expensive electronics.
1. Owners expect expensive high end gear to provide superior performance and reliability.
2. When a problem occurs people who spend for the best expect the problems to be dealt with quickly with a smile on one's face.
CSB 5858
09-29-2008, 16:06
This complaint is totally without merit. If you are foolish enough to take an expensive unsealed electronic camera in the rain, you deserve whatever happens to it. It's even more foolish to think for a moment Leica's warranty should cover your mistakes. If your insurance really did pay off, they should not have. It was YOUR fault, not the camera.
On top of that, the story you posted at LCF http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/60525-m8-greenland.html
is a bit different than the story posted at RFF AT LCF you say "The screen showed a lot of moist in the camera." while the story you posted at RFF says "it proved that some condensation was present on the camera" It seems the amount of moisture inside the M8 is variable with how bad you are trying to make Leica look.
You have no complaint with Leica. Your only real complaint is with yourself for using the M8 under conditions that it was not intended. Shame on you.
Alex
photomoof
09-29-2008, 20:28
From the Manual:
Do not expose the unit to moisture or rain.
Ensure that water cannot get into the LEICA M8, e.g.
when it is snowing or raining and on the beach.
Moisture can cause malfunctions and even permanent
damage to the LEICA M8 and the memory card.
Do not touch the connections on the rear of the
memory card and keep them free of dirt, dust and
moisture.
Store the LEICA M8 in a dry, adequately ventilated
place, where neither high temperatures nor high
humidity will occur. When used in humid condi-
tions, the LEICA M8 should be completely cleared
of all moisture before being stored away.
If condensation has formed on or in the LEICA M8,
you should turn it off and leave it to stand at room
temperature for around an hour. Once the camera
temperature has adjusted to room temperature, the
condensation will disappear by itself.
I'm sorry this happened to you, but you failed to properly handle your gear. Now it's broken and you are surprised?
reinierv
09-29-2008, 22:40
Store the LEICA M8 in a dry, adequately ventilated
place, where neither high temperatures nor high
humidity will occur. When used in humid condi-
tions, the LEICA M8 should be completely cleared
of all moisture before being stored away.
thank you for quoting this. I was in doubt if I would replace the M8. Now I'm sure I will not. This simply means this is a studio kamera and I need an outdoor camera, e.g. like the M's used to be.
My camera was dried, it was stored between dry clothes..what do you expect more? But ok, its clear we disagree.
Oh wow, somewhhere I wrote "a lot" en somewhere else ar wrote "some", oh wow, now this guy must be a liar and an idiot, your are absolutely right. Lets pickle about words and contexts, not about the case. I still see nobody putting in a bet to get my written statements
Btw no I realize it, why is there a special thread on M8 problems. I don't see one for other RF nor other camera's
Too bad, I loved using RFs
From the Manual:
Do not expose the unit to moisture or rain.
Ensure that water cannot get into the LEICA M8, e.g.
when it is snowing or raining and on the beach.
Moisture can cause malfunctions and even permanent
damage to the LEICA M8 and the memory card.
Do not touch the connections on the rear of the
memory card and keep them free of dirt, dust and
moisture.
Store the LEICA M8 in a dry, adequately ventilated
place, where neither high temperatures nor high
humidity will occur. When used in humid condi-
tions, the LEICA M8 should be completely cleared
of all moisture before being stored away.
If condensation has formed on or in the LEICA M8,
you should turn it off and leave it to stand at room
temperature for around an hour. Once the camera
temperature has adjusted to room temperature, the
condensation will disappear by itself.
If I would ever buy a Leica M* I would expect it to work flawlessly in any bad wheather condition.. :rolleyes:
I now understand that this is not true at least for the M8.
More than any sapphire glass there is the need to have a waterproof upgrade, this is my opinion of course, it's not a universal truth, but why shall I pay that much for something that I'll not dare to use?
Rob.
Back in the mid '90s I had a Contax RX and a batch of nice glass to go with it. I attended a Contax Day, run by the UK branch of Kyocera. They laid on kit to use, an endless supply of free film and "masterclasses" with experienced photographers - Stu Williamson and James Bareham in particular. It was a shocking day, but James B still took us outside into the rain with our own and the loaned equipment. He told us not to be worried about shooting in the rain, as long as we dried our kit off and aired it thoroughly afterwards. The Kyocera people looked on and smiled. After an hour or so in the pouring rain we returned inside. James was adamant that it was OUR responsibility to dry the kit and nobody else's, and moved among the group showing people how to get everything thoroughly dry. The organisers had already arranged for a couple of large tables to be readied on which we could put the equipment to air while we listened to the next session. James Bareham's parting shot was not to be afraid of using your kit, but to respect it and ALWAYS to clean it and dry it and air it after use and before putting it away. My RX wasn't particularly waterproofed, as I recall, but it worked flawlessly on the day and for years thereafter.
Good advice, and common sense.
Of course as my mother used to say, the funny thing about common sense is that it is not very common.
Reiner, methinks you doth protest too much.
Regards,
Bill
Back in the mid '90s I had a Contax RX and a batch of nice glass to go with it. I attended a Contax Day, run by the UK branch of Kyocera. They laid on kit to use, an endless supply of free film and "masterclasses" with experienced photographers - Stu Williamson and James Bareham in particular. It was a shocking day, but James B still took us outside into the rain with our own and the loaned equipment. He told us not to be worried about shooting in the rain, as long as we dried our kit off and aired it thoroughly afterwards. The Kyocera people looked on and smiled. After an hour or so in the pouring rain we returned inside. James was adamant that it was OUR responsibility to dry the kit and nobody else's, and moved among the group showing people how to get everything thoroughly dry. The organisers had already arranged for a couple of large tables to be readied on which we could put the equipment to air while we listened to the next session. James Bareham's parting shot was not to be afraid of using your kit, but to respect it and ALWAYS to clean it and dry it and air it after use and before putting it away. My RX wasn't particularly waterproofed, as I recall, but it worked flawlessly on the day and for years thereafter.
Good advice, and common sense.
Of course as my mother used to say, the funny thing about common sense is that it is not very common.
Reiner, methinks you doth protest too much.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
That is fair, but the manual says "Do not expose the unit to moisture or rain." if this is enough to void the warranty, well.. in my opinion this is *not* fair at all.
Rob.
When it gets to the point where you are holding your “Terms and Conditions” under your customers nose, he is no longer your customer
Bet the meter was buggered when it thawed out, mine was, corroded battery lead
ThatOneGuy
09-30-2008, 04:43
From the Manual:
Do not expose the unit to moisture or rain.
Ensure that water cannot get into the LEICA M8, e.g.
when it is snowing or raining and on the beach.
Moisture can cause malfunctions and even permanent
damage to the LEICA M8 and the memory card.
So basically, don't use the camera. Now maybe I'm being unreasonable, but it seems a little outrageous to me that a camera this expensive and billed as a professional tool for photojournalists would be made to this standard. It also seems more than a little ridiculous to me that Leica, a small company that can't count on huge volume sales to offset alienated customers, would have a a bit more focus on customer service. Even if it wasn't covered under warranty, isn't a 3000+ euro bill a bit out of touch with reality? We're talking about replacing some PCBs that probably only cost a few dollars each to manufacture, not having a master craftsman hand-file a new shutter mechanism from a block of titanium.
Again I'm still amazed at the people behaving as though Leica is some infallible divine entity. Do you not realize how much these cameras cost? What are people paying for if not superior quality and customer service? Some argue that the camera was misused because the user didn't follow the terms and conditions. I would argue that the camera was defective by design and Leica misrepresented it by claiming it to be on par with the film M and marketing it as a camera for professional use. Those terms and conditions are only evidence that Leica knew they were making a substandard product and never intended to stand behind it.
As much as I love my M3, the more I learn about Leica today the more I certain I am that I will never purchase a new one.
So basically, don't use the camera. Now maybe I'm being unreasonable, etc, etc...
Yes.
You are.
By your measure, if you bought a Ferrari then tried to cross a field in it...
...or an Armani suit and wore it for mountaineering...
That Mont Blanc you bought - did it not write on brick walls...?
Get real. Ts & Cs are there to protect companies against user stupidity and vexatious claims.
Regards,
Bill
Yes.
You are.
By your measure, if you bought a Ferrari then tried to cross a field in it...
...or an Armani suit and wore it for mountaineering...
That Mont Blanc you bought - did it not write on brick walls...?
Get real. Ts & Cs are there to protect companies against user stupidity and vexatious claims.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
:) to me it is more like buying a Porsche Cayenne and trying to cross a field: it should work by some extent..
All in all M8 is a professional camera, not a toy: I expect it to work where another Leica M would work..
Maybe I misunderstood what it is anyway...
Rob.
Yes.
You are.
By your measure, if you bought a Ferrari then tried to cross a field in it...
...or an Armani suit and wore it for mountaineering...
That Mont Blanc you bought - did it not write on brick walls...?
Get real. Ts & Cs are there to protect companies against user stupidity and vexatious claims.
Regards,
Bill
I would say more like putting Quink ink in a Mont Blanc or Castrol instead Shell oil in a Ferrari. Contravenes the Terms and Conditions but by enough to warrant outright rejection of the claim??
ThatOneGuy
09-30-2008, 06:33
Yes.
You are.
By your measure, if you bought a Ferrari then tried to cross a field in it...
...or an Armani suit and wore it for mountaineering...
That Mont Blanc you bought - did it not write on brick walls...?
Get real. Ts & Cs are there to protect companies against user stupidity and vexatious claims.
Regards,
Bill
Absolutely terms and conditions are there to protect the company, but it is idiotic if those terms and conditions exclude using the product in the capacity for which was sold. Then instead of protecting the company from unreasonable (not vexatious, as that would be something different entirely) claims, it serves to protect the company from having to take responsibility for any defect in their product. In this case, exposure to "moisture" is so vague that Leica could use it in any situation in which a camera fails for an unexplained reason and relieve themselves of any duty to repair it. It's like the clause in some mountain bike warranties that void the warranty if the bike is ridden on dirt...
Aside from that, your analogy about the ferrari, suit, and pen completely miss the mark. If, however, I were to buy a ferrari which is marketed as a high performance race car, race it under normal circumstances, and have it fail only to find out that racing voids the warranty then I would be very justified in feeling cheated. A product should live up to how it is marketed, not to the lawyer doublespeak included in the manual that you don't even see until after you buy it.
If the M8 were marketed as a shelf ornament for rich morons, I doubt anybody would care that a little moisture kills it and that Leica won't repair it under warranty. The same would probably hold true if it sold for $500. But the bottom line is that it is marketed as a camera for professional use in a world where all other professional digital cameras have featured weather sealing from the start, as an equal to film Ms which are famous for reliability in all conditions, and sells for $5,500. Not only does the camera not live up to those marketing claims, but the company knows it and hides behind sneaky warranty terms rather than improving the camera.
Forgive me if this has already been said, but I didn't have time to read through all the responses to the same thread on three different forums.
I feel sorry for the O.P.'s predicament, I really do. I don't disblieve that his camera is kaput due to moisture intrusion. However I think it's odd that if the M8 was really so poorly resistant to moisture damage, that we haven't heard of multiple cases of this happening, as we have heard of multiple shutter failures and SDS. I'm sure it's naive to think that of the 12,000 or so M8's out there in use that everybody is only using them when it's bone dry. My M8 has never had a problem, and I live in a humid, tropical climate, 5 minutes from the ocean. I've used my M8 in drizzle and even light rain, with reasonable caution. I used the same caution with my old Canon 1V, which was "weather sealed", because not all of the lenses I had had the o-rings.
fdigital
09-30-2008, 06:44
Yes.
You are.
By your measure, if you bought a Ferrari then tried to cross a field in it...
...or an Armani suit and wore it for mountaineering...
That Mont Blanc you bought - did it not write on brick walls...?
Get real. Ts & Cs are there to protect companies against user stupidity and vexatious claims.
Regards,
Bill
I completely disagree.
The correct analogy would be that you buy a ferrari and it rains on the way to a track day, and all the electronics fail because they aren't protected from moisture.
The m8 is designed primarily as a photojournalist tool, out of all the genres it comes closest to being that. The whole no weathersealing on a 5K camera thing is ludicrous.
reinierv
09-30-2008, 06:48
do you rember Lieca's own campain..."Can your camera take a beating?"
You can imagine I had a cynical laugh about this...
jsut at an interview with Leica reps on the Kina that "bragged" about the quality of Leica camera's
Leaving in the middle what the cause was...an repair bill of 3340euro indeed is outragous. And maybe that is the point that pisses me off most, even with the replacement of the entire interior, that is not a realistic quote, simply because they can simply screw the serial number onto another body and then will come to a lower price quote as they did now.
Absolutely terms and conditions are there to...etc..
Rubbish.
Show me an M-series Leica that has ever claimed to be weatherproof. A Hasselblad is, I think you would agree, a "professional camera" (whatever that is? One that you have to be a "professional" to hold??) but I am not aware of a weatherproofed one. The M8, like any digital camera is a computer with glass on the front first. It is inherently more deserving of care in use in use than, for example, an M3, with no electronics at all.
Oh, and I used the term "vexatious" deliberately - as in "...litigant". Reiner has chosen to carpet-bomb any and every forum and website he can to try and drum up some sympathy for his "misfortune".
Leica is a business not a charity. "Boo-hoo" does not work, and quite rightly too.
Regards,
Bill
I hate to introduce balance, or facts into this debate, when some here are having such fun bashing big, bad Leica but:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/59332-waterproof-m8-s.html
Regards,
Bill
The m8 is designed primarily as a photojournalist tool, out of all the genres it comes closest to being that. The whole no weathersealing on a 5K camera thing is ludicrous.
While previous M's (maybe up to the M6 but, I think, more likely, the M4) were definitely (or could definitely) be seen as being used by Photojournalists; the advent of auto focus and auto exposure basically killed the M as the photojournalist's tool.
That said, I don't recall Leica marketing the M8 as a photojournalist's camera.
All I know is, I bought an M8 earlier this year and I knew that I was getting an M but that doesn't mean I'm going to swing it around in my arms in the rain or snow or desert heat - it's not an M3 - it's got much more electronics in it and such.
WRT a $5000 camera not having weather sealing on it - That depends on what it's designed to do. Clearly the Canon 1D series cameras are meant to be rugged tools (and photojournalists do use/abuse them that way) - as such, they have the weather sealing built in. The M8, as I stated, was never marketed as a photojournalist tool and therefore does not have any weather sealing.
Dave
I hate to introduce balance, or facts into this debate, when some here are having such fun bashing big, bad Leica but:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/59332-waterproof-m8-s.html
Regards,
Bill
So what.. FSU like quality control? :D ehehe
Rob.
I hate to introduce balance, or facts into this debate, when some here are having such fun bashing big, bad Leica but:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/59332-waterproof-m8-s.html
Regards,
Bill
So do you believe the OP to be lying?
Then came a day it started to rain. So wisely I decided to put the M8, that was in a side-pocket on the belt of my backpack, inside the backpack, between dry cloths.
Frank1969
09-30-2008, 07:18
To answer your money if Leica needs money: NO. They had the design for a 1,0 50mm lens for years. The design was changed a little over the years but the lens was there. As far as I know it did not sell very well but that is another story. Laica apparently has enough money and time to invest in a totally new design for a 0.95 50mm lens. A huge benefit of course over the old model that Leica thinks will sell so much better.
Leica has a mediocre M8 but does not invest any money and time in making this a real professional camera. They invest time and money in an S2. A camera already outdated by the time it is realeased although some hardcore Leica taliban think that this is a fantastic new product that can compete with Hasselblad.
So there you have your answer.
photogdave
09-30-2008, 07:20
While previous M's (maybe up to the M6 but, I think, more likely, the M4) were definitely (or could definitely) be seen as being used by Photojournalists; the advent of auto focus and auto exposure basically killed the M as the photojournalist's tool.
That said, I don't recall Leica marketing the M8 as a photojournalist's camera.
All I know is, I bought an M8 earlier this year and I knew that I was getting an M but that doesn't mean I'm going to swing it around in my arms in the rain or snow or desert heat - it's not an M3 - it's got much more electronics in it and such.
WRT a $5000 camera not having weather sealing on it - That depends on what it's designed to do. Clearly the Canon 1D series cameras are meant to be rugged tools (and photojournalists do use/abuse them that way) - as such, they have the weather sealing built in. The M8, as I stated, was never marketed as a photojournalist tool and therefore does not have any weather sealing.
Dave
You literally took the words out of my mouth!
Please show us the Leica ad that says "Hey photojournalists! Try the M8 - takes a licking and keeps on clicking!"
Even "back in the day" the Leica wasn't aimed squarely at PJs, it just happened to be one of the cameras that many of them used.
As to the "outrageous" repair cost, well yes it's a lot of money but let's put it in perspective. My Panasonic LC1 had a total power failure in the middle of a shoot. The repair estimate to replace the main board was $700. THe power surge (or whatever happened) that fried the board also damaged an AF sensor in the lens assembly. The whole lens assembly has to be replaced and the estimate for that is also $700. So the total repair is $300 more than the camera cost new.
I wish Panasonic was as unreasonable as Leica!
reinierv
09-30-2008, 07:21
so much disbelieve and still no-one placing a bet I can not come up with written statements from tour members
come-on guys, put in that 10er or more, I had a loss so need the money :D
So do you believe the OP to be lying?
Far be it from me to make such an accusation. I merely observe inconsistencies between the story told and the damage shown, and between the stated experience of the OP and other M8 owners with no axe to grind.
It may of course be that not all M8s are created equal, but I am more inclined to apply Occams Razor and believe that people are less consistent than manufactured items. A story is a story. Evidence is evidence. I know which I would rely upon if called to make a judgement, as Leica have done.
Whether or not the OP is being mendacious is entirely up to him and his conscience.
Regards,
Bill
So would you, if asked, want to see your judgment to become a precedent for any faulty camera?
I don’t think “the majority don’t fail therefore none fail” would be a terribly good marketing strategy myself
Far be it from me to make such an accusation. I merely observe inconsistencies between the story told and the damage shown, and between the stated experience of the OP and other M8 owners with no axe to grind.
It may of course be that not all M8s are created equal, but I am more inclined to apply Occams Razor and believe that people are less consistent than manufactured items. A story is a story. Evidence is evidence. I know which I would rely upon if called to make a judgement, as Leica have done.
Whether or not the OP is being mendacious is entirely up to him and his conscience.
Regards,
Bill
No, Stewart, that would be one-dimensional and naive. The point I am making is that I would be more inclined to give weight to evidence than testimony and the evidence that we have been shown in this case appears inconsistent with the tale being told.
Regards,
Bill
Bill
I’m not qualified to judge the evidence, or the validity of the story for that matter, and every time I’ve got a camera wet it has cost me money. But the cost here is almost the full value of the camera and that seems unreasonable, I am just surprised a compromise wasn’t offered.
Stewart
micromontenegro
09-30-2008, 08:20
I hate to introduce balance, or facts into this debate, when some here are having such fun bashing big, bad Leica but:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/59332-waterproof-m8-s.html
Regards,
Bill
If that's true, the (here) OP should sue Leica: some M8s work underwater, ans his was damaged by a little rain!
Fortunaly I was insured and they paid for the camera. But they are so anoyed by Leica that anyone in the Netherlands now wanting to insure an M8 can not cover it for waterdamage as they are "fed up with the way Leica expects us to clean up their mess".
I just noticed that. I don't know how many insurance companies there are in the Netherlands or how they are interrelated. But based on what I know of insurance companies in N. America, the idea that exactly one 4-figure claim paid by one insurer would result in a country-wide exclusion of any M8 from insurability is unbelievable. Too bad JaapV is on vacation, because I know he has his insured and would know the answer to that. As it stands however, that statement does weaken my inclination to accept the rest of the story at face value.
That said, I recall reading where someone had the bottom ridge of their M8 crack off at the lock tab and Leica (in Solms) initially told them it wasn't covered under warranty because--allegedly--the M8 should not be used vertically on a tripod :eek: Eventually I believe Stefan Daniel intervened and repaired it under warranty, and issued a statement that others would have it done under warranty also. Here again, there were at least a few of the same failures, not just one. But it does point out that as with most companies (car companies too), the repair department is sometimes a bit over-eager to deny warranty claims. But frequently, if the consumer can find the right ear to bend (or has a dealer who will go to bat for him in that regard), someone higher-up and/or in customer service, will see to it that an exception is made.
I can certainly commiserate with the O.P.'s frustration. I can't really blame him for taking his plight to the court of public opinion, which in the case of Leica, are the forums. I might do the same if I were in his shoes. Nonetheless, the fact remains that if the M8 were so poorly sealed that a few raindrops spelled its inevitable demise, we would surely have been hearing of more cases. People have never been shy about trumpeting their M8 problems in the forums. So, I think there are two separate issues.
One is, is it possible the O.P.'s M8 was defectively assembled such that it allowed much easier and/or greater ingress of moisture than others. Certainly that is a possibility, and if so, it should have been fixed under warranty. Personally I think unless Leica found seaweed inside the camera, they should have just bit their tongue and fixed it free or given him a replacement, with a smile, and wrote it off to goodwill. Or at least offered some kind of compromise solution like only charging him for parts or labor, not both. Anything to show goodwill. You know the old business addage "If a customer likes you he'll tell a friend, but if he doesn't like you he'll tell ten friends."
The second and separate issue is, is the M8 as a design, so poorly sealed that minor moisture will kill it. I think the numbers answer that with a "no".
photomoof
09-30-2008, 18:00
Few cameras can survive being stored in a high humidity bag. However most cameras including the M8 can take quite a bit of rain. I posted a series of M8 photos here on the RFF, all of which were taken in pouring rain. I had no umbrella. Petrol Nasty saw me in the rain, and loaned me his lenses to take into the rain.
The camera of course got quite wet, but I know how to handle a camera in the rain. You don't just stand there with it pouring on the camera, you keep the lens down to keep water from going into the lens mount, and you keep it under your jacket until you take the photo. You use a cardboard "umbrella." And you let it dry out when you get it home. If I had really been worried I would have used a sandwich bag and a rubber band on the camera, which will keep any camera dry. If I was going to a rain forest, I would probably take a waterproof camera, but I bet I could make the M8 work for me with a clear bag designed for the rain.
I have used far poorer sealed cameras such as the Nikon F with no issue. However there are kinds of rain that get into everything, and for that you need a waterproof camera.
The canal was shot a week later and it was still working... ;)
reinierv
10-01-2008, 01:36
One is, is it possible the O.P.'s M8 was defectively assembled such that it allowed much easier and/or greater ingress of moisture than others. Certainly that is a possibility, and if so, it should have been fixed under warranty. Personally I think unless Leica found seaweed inside the camera, they should have just bit their tongue and fixed it free or given him a replacement, with a smile, and wrote it off to goodwill. Or at least offered some kind of compromise solution like only charging him for parts or labor, not both. Anything to show goodwill. You know the old business addage "If a customer likes you he'll tell a friend, but if he doesn't like you he'll tell ten friends."
And this is perfectly true. I already heard from 5-7 people that they no longer consider the M8 if this is the case. Now if they would have been buyers in the end I ofcourse can't tell (from 2 I certainly can), but at least they will tell others. So Leica's loss will be (in numbers :cool:) larger than mine......
I got me a pretty decent offer from the shop I bought the M8 from, which was significantly less then the repair cost quoted by Leica and was covered by what the insurance payed out. So in the end, considering I also would have an extra loss if I had to sell the lenses and extra's I own for the M8 and having had a look and serveral alternatives and disapointed that Nikon didn't live up to the rumours, I reluctantly will be an M8 owner again. :eek::bang: If RF is your thing and you wish the speed of digital, then there is no real alternative. And if I decide to sellit again in the comming months, looking at the price of 2nd hand M8's I will only make a very small loss on the body. The price I was offered was that good :eek:
Roger Hicks
10-01-2008, 02:04
Few cameras can survive being stored in a high humidity bag. However most cameras including the M8 can take quite a bit of rain. I posted a series of M8 photos here on the RFF, all of which were taken in pouring rain. I had no umbrella. Petrol Nasty saw me in the rain, and loaned me his lenses to take into the rain.
The camera of course got quite wet, but I know how to handle a camera in the rain. You don't just stand there with it pouring on the camera, you keep the lens down to keep water from going into the lens mount, and you keep it under your jacket until you take the photo. You use a cardboard "umbrella." And you let it dry out when you get it home. If I had really been worried I would have used a sandwich bag and a rubber band on the camera, which will keep any camera dry. If I was going to a rain forest, I would probably take a waterproof camera, but I bet I could make the M8 work for me with a clear bag designed for the rain.
I have used far poorer sealed cameras such as the Nikon F with no issue. However there are kinds of rain that get into everything, and for that you need a waterproof camera.
The canal was shot a week later and it was still working... ;)
Dear Fred,
Quite. As well as Ms, I've used Nikon Fs and a Hasselblad 500C in the rain, including Indian monsoons. Maybe I've been lucky, but I like to think that there is at least a small measure of smart in there as well.
This 'horror story' has not affected how I use my M8 in the rain, which is much as you describe.
As for 'tell a friend -- tell ten friends', well, that's what the internet is for; there are always more people willing to complain than to praise, not least because those who could offer praise will be out there shooting with their still-functioning cameras rather than weeping into their keyboards.
EDIT: This is not to deny that I sympathize deeply with the OP. At best, he was extremely unlucky. But as others have said, if this were a fundamental flaw, we'd have seen a lot more reports of the same problem.
Cheers,
R.
tmfabian
10-01-2008, 02:18
Dear Fred,
Quite. As well as Ms, I've used Nikon Fs and a Hasselblad 500C in the rain, including Indian monsoons. Maybe I've been lucky, but I like to think that there is at least a small measure of smart in there as well.
R.
holy god...you took a 500C out in the rain, those things are about as weather sealed as a screen door :D compared to that the m8 is a freaking submarine in terms of weather sealing.
And it's something i've always been very attached to when people complain that a "pro" or expensive camera should be perfectly weather sealed...hassy's are about as "pro" as they come and i don't think any of them were particularly well sealed vs the elements, like you and Fred have already stated, it just takes some smarts to safely use these kinds of cameras in bad conditions.
And it's something i've always been very attached to when people complain that a "pro" or expensive camera should be perfectly weather sealed...hassy's are about as "pro" as they come and i don't think any of them were particularly well sealed vs the elements, like you and Fred have already stated, it just takes some smarts to safely use these kinds of cameras in bad conditions.
My point exactly.
...I reluctantly will be an M8 owner again. :eek::bang: If RF is your thing and you wish the speed of digital, then there is no real alternative. And if I decide to sellit again in the comming months, looking at the price of 2nd hand M8's I will only make a very small loss on the body. The price I was offered was that good :eek:
So.
Your unfortunate experience has resulted in you... buying another M8.
That says it all.
Case closed.
Regards,
Bill
reinierv
10-01-2008, 03:49
well bill
as said many times before...give me a true alternative and I'll take it...
I still may sell the whole bunch in a few months as it will mean just little loss. The price they give me was good enough for that. And for now I need to continue work and the M8 image quality is more then excellent, no discussion there.
I considered Canon G9, Ricoh GX200 (dumped the 100 once), Sigma DP...none gives the quick MF control as the M8, let alone image quality
I considered 5D or alike with M converter...too big
But If Nikon would come up with the rumoured RF "as specified" I will sell of the M8 at the very moment this RF hits the market. I will probably pre-order.
Untill then I will have to use the M8 with care, so be it
I do like to see a happy ending. Use your new M8 in good health, Reinier.
Regards,
Bill
tmfabian
10-01-2008, 05:02
ok...i'm convinced something other than a little moisture or even rain affected your camera to cause all that damage after reading up on another forum about the build quality of the m8, i'm not saying you're trying to mislead us here, just that your m8 could have likely had a defect in some way that allowed the damage to happen. Here's the quote.
The design of the camera relies on gravity to keep water out - it has to flow uphill to get into the camera around the rim of the top cover, over the metal "bump" underneath the shutter speed dial and the hot shoe is sealed with silicone which may be to keep the weather out.
The weak point appears to be around the power switch. It's clearly not going to let the water free flow into the camera but it's not sealed. Note though that I didn't completely dismantle the power switch beyond what I showed in the picture - a special tool is required - so I cannot be 100% sure how it is. I have the tool on order, so if I can, I'll try a leak test.
I'd say it's best to regard the camera as weather resistant, not weather proof, but it's far from shabby.
direct from the mouth of the guy that took his m8 apart.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/21331-anatomy-leica-m8.html
ok i'm going to sleep, i've been awake for 39 hours.
photomoof
10-01-2008, 05:09
Yes good luck, and NEVER store a camera wrapped in a cloth, or towel no matter how dry it appears. And Never put a wet camera in a sealed plastic bag for days.
There is always the surprise. That day recently when I FILLED a phone with water, by simply sticking in the waistband of my pants, while riding my bike for only an hour, was a revelation. Had I put it on the side there would probably have been no water and no salt. The inside of the thing looks exactly like your Leica, and it will most likely fail. However unlike your Leica I took off the cover and dried it, before it got time to really get corroded.
Again good luck, just use common sense with your M8.
I've gone wading into a stream multiple times and forgot about my cell phone in my pocket. Luckily, the stream has low conductivity (i.e. low ion concentration). After letting the phone dry out in the sun it has been fine. What's in the water and how long things stay wet can determine if things get fried or badly corroded.
photomoof
10-01-2008, 07:29
I've gone wading into a stream multiple times and forgot about my cell phone in my pocket. Luckily, the stream has low conductivity (i.e. low ion concentration). After letting the phone dry out in the sun it has been fine. What's in the water and how long things stay wet can determine if things get fried or badly corroded.
Exactlly -- in my case salt was the enemy, although an iPhone does not cost $5000 to replace.
reinierv
10-01-2008, 08:02
ok...i'm convinced something other than a little moisture or even rain affected your camera to cause all that damage after reading up on another forum about the build quality of the m8, i'm not saying you're trying to mislead us here, just that your m8 could have likely had a defect in some way that allowed the damage to happen. QUOTE]
You may have noticed that I also left the option that my camera had some sort of defect open...I believe it is a valid assumption and made the gamble for a new M8 easier
[QUOTE]direct from the mouth of the guy that took his m8 apart.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...-leica-m8.html
blast...I wanted to do that, someone was ahead of me....
Well going to do it anyway. looks like fun to me :D
Roger Hicks
10-01-2008, 08:16
holy god...you took a 500C out in the rain, those things are about as weather sealed as a screen door :D . . . .
Yeah...
What made it really interesting was that it was at Tso.Pema (Rewalsar) in the Himalayas, and I was there with a weather control lama. It rained between the Cham dances (and I took pictures) but it didn't rain during the dances (when I also took pictures). You can probably hypnotize me but you can't easily hypnotize a 500C.
This was only heavy drizzle, not monsoon, but I sold the camera a year or so afterwards when I switched to 6x7cm (NEVER let an art director crop a 6x6...) and the chum to whom I sold it was still using it professionally 15 years later (I've not seen him for a decade or more).
Cheers,
R.
Gabriel M.A.
10-01-2008, 09:37
holy god...you took a 500C out in the rain, those things are about as weather sealed as a screen door
Oh, no. The beginning of the end for Hasselblad? :rolleyes:
Corrosion in low volage electronic equipment that have been exposed to water in their internals is accelerated by the electrolysis process, caused by the battery voltage. The first thing one should always do when suspecting that an electronic device has been wettened is to remove all power. For cameras, this implies removing the battery (and the date-backup cell, if it has one.)
~Joe
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.