View Full Version : Not a rangefinder, but a Leica
Bill Pierce
09-22-2008, 07:34
Check this out.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/2879015170/sizes/l/
Comments?
Bill
Bill, if you get one I'll get one.
Tuolumne
09-22-2008, 07:49
You could say that even Leica has given up on the M-system. All of their R&D has and will continue to go into this puppy.
/T
xayraa33
09-22-2008, 07:50
It looks big, very big.
You could say that even Leica has given up on the M-system. All of their R&D has and will continue to go into this puppy.
/TI don't see how you can say that after last week's lens announcements.
amateriat
09-22-2008, 08:07
Several industry execs just lost their lunch...
I highly doubt this is curtains for the M-system; we're not just talking horses of a different color here. The R system is a somewhat different matter, although the official story is that nothing's changing there, either. Rather, I see this as the fulfillment of Solms' veiled threat to take on the MF market. Given the form-factor and physical size (together with that humongous sensor), they can also slap Canon and Nikon around as well, all with the same camera. That's the ticket here: Leica simply can't afford to field a bevy of models for this round, so they need one new model (and, as it turns out, a whole new format) for that one knockout punch that puts them over the top. If the steak matches the sizzle here, Solms could really–finally!–turn the corner (and, if you ask me, this bodes well for the future appearance of a FF M body).
- Barrett
Tuolumne
09-22-2008, 08:14
I don't see how you can say that after last week's lens announcements.
I'm talking about the razor, not the razor blade.
/T
oftheherd
09-22-2008, 08:26
Several industry execs just lost their lunch...
...
- Barrett
Yes and no. With their track record with the M8, a lot of people who can afford this camera will be reluctant to buy it right away. Then there is the fact that a lot of people won't be able to afford this camera.
I do expect that other camera manufacturers will be watching closely to see how it is received and talked about. Enough drooling and they will be trying to decide how to upgrade to a competitive camera that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and a first born male child.
I say that as a person who doesn't own a Leica and doesn't particularly want to. But that camera certainly sounds impressive.
Ronald_H
09-22-2008, 08:30
I'll be d*mned, that's all I can say. How many times has Leica been declared dead now? And now they come up with this... something between 35mm FF and MF with SLR handling. How the h*ll could they develop something like this?!? I'm frankly amazed.
amateriat
09-22-2008, 08:32
Like I said, the steak has to match the sizzle. I regarded the M8 a bit of a rush-job that's been nipped-and-tucked with the .2 release, and will see further refinement. The S2 looks rather more polished, but seeing, ultimately, is believing.
- Barrett
Ray Nalley
09-22-2008, 08:37
What do you figure this will cost? $20,000? $30,000?
Al Kaplan
09-22-2008, 08:41
It looks like a great replacement for a Hasselblad system with that big sensor but for everyday phtography I'm sticking with my film M bodies. The last thing I want to do at this point is invest in a whole new set of lenses.
amateriat
09-22-2008, 08:42
Ray: My guess is it'll certainly cost more–possibly a lot more–than, say, a Canon 1Ds MkIII, but probably less than your full-on H-series Hassy (or just the digital back). That's just me speculating like everybody else. But if I'm close, you owe me a drink. ;)
- Barrett
(off topic)
Al, nice to see you around here.
Al Kaplan
09-22-2008, 08:45
Nice to be here! Thanks.
I'm talking about the razor, not the razor blade.Not all M users are interested in digital, and for this particular M user, the most interesting development has been the 24/1.4. Leica is really about the glass, what I assume you are calling the razor.
willie_901
09-22-2008, 08:53
This could be a fantastic studio/commercial photography system.
KoNickon
09-22-2008, 09:02
Wow. This is a stunner, for sure. I'll be fascinated to read more about it.
Tuolumne
09-22-2008, 09:44
Not all M users are interested in digital, and for this particular M user, the most interesting development has been the 24/1.4. Leica is really about the glass, what I assume you are calling the razor.
The glass is the razor blade. It's what you sell in multiples for every single body, including the ones that are 60 years old. The razor is the body. You sell it once. Then you're done.
/T
I guess I didn't understand the metaphor. I assumed you were talking about priorities/importance.
Chuck Albertson
09-22-2008, 10:00
Wow! They certainly came in under the radar with this one. They must make the reviewers sign the NDA From Hell.
John Rountree
09-22-2008, 10:13
I'm about to dump my film leicas and lenses if this can be had for a decent price
Something to consider before you (plural) jump over to digital. All digital files can corrupt for no apparent reason. I am sure that everyone on this board has a music CD that will no longer play, or a word file that will not open. I bought a Seagate external memory about three months ago and loaded about 1,200 digital pictures on it. I plugged it in last week, and it will no longer fire up. There is a real possibility that all those files are lost and/or some are corrupt. HRd drives crash and burn with no warning. Film can be stored safely for a very long time with minimal effort. Digital files of any type may not be retrievable, for a variety of reasons, rendering them useless. This is still the Achilles heel of any digital system.
FifthLeaf
09-22-2008, 10:20
I did not see this announcement coming at all, but after reading the article, I can understand Leica's reasoning. Designing a system that's digital from the ground up will help eliminate the problems they've had converting the R and M cameras. Nor will they cannibalize existing dSLR sales because there aren't really any to speak of. And because Leica is known for high end 35mm gear, it makes sense to target the professional market by giving them something that neither Nikon nor Canon delivers.
Going for the consumer market like with their 4/3 cameras was a flop and Leica should head in the other direction. My concern is that the new mount won't make sense in the near future. If digital MF backs become more portable, then this new Leica mount will seem kinda pointless. Or maybe the sensor quality of the full-frame Nikons/Canons will be so good that a 50% jump in size is irrelevant.
Tuolumne
09-22-2008, 10:28
I guess I didn't understand the metaphor. I assumed you were talking about priorities/importance.
It's a business model metaphor - often used in the technology industry, but obviously derived from the shaving industry. It means you want to sell one thing (a camera body for example - usually relatively cheaply - or even give it away free) so you can get people to buy lots of something else (a lens) that only works in your razor and that you can sell lots of at a high price. Once they buy into the razor (body) they have to buy the blades (lenses).
/T
I understand. Equivalent would be a printer and toner cartridges presumably.
Tuolumne
09-22-2008, 10:30
Something to consider before you (plural) jump over to digital. All digital files can corrupt for no apparent reason. I am sure that everyone on this board has a music CD that will no longer play, or a word file that will not open. I bought a Seagate external memory about three months ago and loaded about 1,200 digital pictures on it. I plugged it in last week, and it will no longer fire up. There is a real possibility that all those files are lost and/or some are corrupt. HRd drives crash and burn with no warning. Film can be stored safely for a very long time with minimal effort. Digital files of any type may not be retrievable, for a variety of reasons, rendering them useless. This is still the Achilles heel of any digital system.
This is Seagate's new business model. They let you buy a large disk cheap, and then charge you a fortune to recover the files when it crashes. Happened to me last month.
/T
FifthLeaf
09-22-2008, 10:58
It's a business model metaphor - often used in the technology industry, but obviously derived from the shaving industry. It means you want to sell one thing (a camera body for example - usually relatively cheaply - or even give it away free) so you can get people to buy lots of something else (a lens) that only works in your razor and that you can sell lots of at a high price. Once they buy into the razor (body) they have to buy the blades (lenses).
/T
That seems the way it was in the film days. But now there's a new digital camera out every year that is "1000 MEGAPIXELS IMPROVED, IT'S WAY BETTER THAN LAST YEAR'S, YOUR OLD CAMERA IS WORTHLESS SH*T." Kinda like "OUR NEW SHAVING SYSTEM NOW HAS 6 RAZORS, 2 MORE THAN OUR COMPETITION! YOUR SHAVE IS 50% BETTER."
CK Dexter Haven
09-22-2008, 11:04
Something to consider before you (plural) jump over to digital. All digital files can corrupt for no apparent reason. I am sure that everyone on this board has a music CD that will no longer play, or a word file that will not open. I bought a Seagate external memory about three months ago and loaded about 1,200 digital pictures on it. I plugged it in last week, and it will no longer fire up. There is a real possibility that all those files are lost and/or some are corrupt. HRd drives crash and burn with no warning. Film can be stored safely for a very long time with minimal effort. Digital files of any type may not be retrievable, for a variety of reasons, rendering them useless. This is still the Achilles heel of any digital system.
No, i haven't had any issues with cds or dvds, aside from scratches. My files all open.
Either way, the issue with the Seagate drive is unfortunate, but could have easily been prevented. It's far easier to make exact digital copies of digital files than it is to have a redundancy system with film. You have RAID options, and the option to have online storage of files, and the option to have multiple hard drives in multiple locations. With film, theft, flood, fire, or other natural disaster will ruin your day (or career).
And, yes, one can digitize the film and thus have multiple copies of a 'hard' format. But, if the initial argument were valid, those copies are worthless anyway. The more significant issue is of digitizing. Who really scans EVERY frame of film? Lab CDs are fine for emailing or posting to the web, but it's prohibitively expensive to get archive quality scans of an entire roll of film.
We also have to imagine that with digital taking over the industry, file security will be the next priority. I have no doubts that this will not be a concern in the near future.
BillBingham2
09-22-2008, 11:21
Not what I would be looking for, but there is a market for her. I think there may be a large market if Leica has the software right (and ir filter) this time.
Should keep cash coming in the door till they can get the DRF thing better.
B2 (;->
Bill Pierce
09-22-2008, 11:56
Not for anything, but digital files should be kept on a mirrored RAID at a minimum, and preferably a separate copy kept off-site...
This is an absolute necessity. I'm amazed that folks are amazed when a hard drive fails. It's inevitable - although, if you are lucky, you will have to be as old as Moses to see all your hard drives fail.
Even if you are just starting out and don't yet need a full RAID system buy three hard disc drives - two twins on your computer and a third stored at a friends in case your house is burned, flooded, robbed, whatever.
That way, when one discs goes nuts, you copy the remaining one to a new hard disc. Not that expensive when you consider what you are insuring.
Bill
Disaster_Area
09-22-2008, 12:31
Something to consider before you (plural) jump over to digital. All digital files can corrupt for no apparent reason. I am sure that everyone on this board has a music CD that will no longer play, or a word file that will not open. I bought a Seagate external memory about three months ago and loaded about 1,200 digital pictures on it. I plugged it in last week, and it will no longer fire up. There is a real possibility that all those files are lost and/or some are corrupt. HRd drives crash and burn with no warning. Film can be stored safely for a very long time with minimal effort. Digital files of any type may not be retrievable, for a variety of reasons, rendering them useless. This is still the Achilles heel of any digital system.
True.. but I've also had a fire wipe out a box of my negatives. Archiving and possible loss of pictures is a liability of every photographer no matter what kind of system you use. On the plus side of digital it's VERY easy to make multiple backups. I have all my photo's archived in triplicate, on my home PC, a back up drive and on an online storage space so unless zombies take over I think I'm good for backups. Also with the online storage I can access my photo's all around the world.. something I can't do with film!
amateriat
09-22-2008, 15:09
Bill: Just an FYI, but it appears that Flickr link you provided has disappeared. Wonder what that's about... :confused:
Edit: Never mind...the info is all over the place now...
- Barrett
Harry Lime
09-23-2008, 01:50
It looks like a great replacement for a Hasselblad system with that big sensor but for everyday phtography I'm sticking with my film M bodies. The last thing I want to do at this point is invest in a whole new set of lenses.
Hey, look. It's Al Kaplan.
Hope you're keeping cool in Florida.
Harry Lime
09-23-2008, 01:53
This is an absolute necessity. I'm amazed that folks are amazed when a hard drive fails. It's inevitable - although, if you are lucky, you will have to be as old as Moses to see all your hard drives fail.
Bill
I also recommend some form of online storage space like Photoshelter. for a small monthly fee you get a decent amount of storage space that is constantly backed up and can be accessed from anywhere there is an internet connection...
Harry Lime
09-23-2008, 02:16
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/
20,000 euro for the body.
Take a look at that viewfinder. It looks like a Nikon F3HP on steroids.
According to Herr Kaufmann the R10 is on the way and it sounded like there may be another DSLR below that.
Very exciting.
MacDaddy
09-23-2008, 03:54
According to Michael Reichman, the new S2 is the end result of a new and close collaboration with Phase One! If you look at the positioning of this system both size and money-wise, it slots neatly between the high end DLSRs from Canikon and the MF big boys like Hasselblad. With Phase One heavily involved, this could be a seismic shift in the MF market. I can't even begin to afford one, but this camera system will be VERY interesting to watch going forward. Just my 2 cents!
kshapero
09-23-2008, 03:59
I assume, one starts all over again buying glass. Damn the mortgage crisis, I could have remortgaged my house to get this. I'll just look and admire.
Harry Lime
09-26-2008, 15:03
Take a look at this blog.
About as close as a hands on preview as we are going to see for a while of the S2 and other goodies introduced at the show.
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/
Scroll down to the entry titled: 'Photokina 2008 - Day 1 - All things Leica'
Look at the size of the viewfinder on the S2! It's HUGE! ;-)
What strikes me is just how compact the S2 is. Compare it to the Mamiya ZD in a more recent post on the blog. The H3 appears to dwarf the S2.
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