Micro 4/3 rangefinder by olympus?

[monkeypainter]

Take a look at this:

http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/0809/Olympus/mft1-001.jpg

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092208olympus_micro_four_thirds.asp

I don't know if we can call it 'rangefinder camera' or not, but it's quite sexy. If it's reasonably priced and they provide a M-lens adapter... uh!

What do you think...?

[jbf]

Well it doesnt have an evf or an optical VF... but I do think that it is a trend in the right direction for the size/compactness of these cameras.

[Jacob]

...they have put a pancake on my Fuji DL mini super p&s from the mid 90's. But it looks much better than the Panasonic. I'd get it.
Jacob

[mabelsound]

Yippee!!! It's a digital Pen!

http://www.thecamerasite.net/02_Rangefinders/Images/Olympuspen.jpg

[Ray Nalley]

Cameras makers should target this forum. Make all their p&s stuff look even vaguely like a Leica and folks will buy everything. ;)

[Rick Waldroup]

Great looking camera. It will be interesting to see what lens Olympus markets with this and what other lenses will be in the line-up. I am sure you will be able to mount some type of external viewfinder on the hot shoe. I could care less about using the monitor as my viewfinder.

The micro 4/3 system is going to be exciting for photographers.

[pompadork]

Even the lens placement says 'Pen slr'

[infrequent]

i would hit that.

[dazedgonebye]

Give me a couple of fast primes and I'll take one.
I'd put a viewfinder in the flash shoe, trust to AF and use it like a Hexar AF.

Oh, can I have it in black without that orange leather?

[ElrodCod]

It's just what the world needs....another throwaway digital camera.

[mabelsound]

It's just what the world needs....another throwaway digital camera.

With interchangeable lenses and a DSLR sensor in it? I think a compact digital with good glass and a good sensor is exactly what the world needs.

Put an M mount on that thing and I'm all over it.

[Rick Waldroup]

It's just what the world needs....another throwaway digital camera.

Obviously, it only becomes a throwaway camera if one literally throws it away.

There are plenty of older digital cameras still in use. Plenty.

And for what it is worth, there have been lots of cheap, plastic, throwawy film cameras made too. It all depends on the quality of the camera being made, regardless if it is a film or digital camera.

Your statement is ludicrous.

I think a nice black model of the new Olympus with silver leather would look cool (or perhaps the other eay around).....:cool: What do you guys think. :)

[capitalK]

Looks like a Digital Werra to me! :D

http://www.thecamerasite.net/07_Viewfinder_Cameras/Images/Werra.jpg

[dazedgonebye]

Looks like a Digital Werra to me! :D

http://www.thecamerasite.net/07_Viewfinder_Cameras/Images/Werra.jpg

Oh H3ll yea!
Why didn't I notice that before?

[Matthew Allen]

Very interesting. I wonder if this will turn out to be the camera people hoped they were getting with the DP1.

Matthew

[Double Negative]

It's a step in the right direction, if you ask me. There's a serious gap between DSLR and P&S cameras. Something in between that a photographer would use. Manual controls, exchangeable lenses and quality images. Something that's relatively small, too.

[flessas]

Looks classy-:)

I was dreaming for this camera.!!!

I am sure that an external EVF will be introduced from Oly too

...and maybe an adaptor for M-lenses...

Delicious-:)

[historicist]

That camera looks great, and with one pancake between 35mm and 50mm (in 35mm terms) f2.8 or faster, I'd get one in an instant. It looks like it'll be quite a while before it hits the shops though...

[photomoof]

It's just what the world needs....another throwaway digital camera.

Well if you don't get it you don't. :cool:

[allen_a_george]

Umm . . . it has no control dials whatsoever. "Fail", IMO.

[Matthew Allen]

...and maybe an adaptor for M-lenses

Why is this such a big deal to people? With the 2x crop most of your favourite M lenses aren't going to be terribly useful unless you're happy shooting telephoto most of the time. You'll need a 24mm lens just to get a normal FOV and for a decent wide angle you'd need a 15mm or wider which would limit you to a very small selection of lenses.

Matthew

[pompadork]

Umm . . . it has no control dials whatsoever. "Fail", IMO.

It also doesn't turn on and has no internal components. What the hell could they possibly be thinking with this thing?

Oh right, a prototype.

[dazedgonebye]

Why is this such a big deal to people? With the 2x crop most of your favourite M lenses aren't going to be terribly useful unless you're happy shooting telephoto most of the time. You'll need a 24mm lens just to get a normal FOV and for a decent wide angle you'd need a 15mm or wider which would limit you to a very small selection of lenses.

Matthew

I'm kinda counting on Oly to make lenses for it...though my 40mm Nokton would make a nice portrait lens.

[flessas]

Why is this such a big deal to people?
Matthew

I was thinking of a CV Nokton 40/1.4 or a Planar 50/2 or a Summarit 50/2.5

[mabelsound]

Why is this such a big deal to people? With the 2x crop most of your favourite M lenses aren't going to be terribly useful unless you're happy shooting telephoto most of the time. You'll need a 24mm lens just to get a normal FOV and for a decent wide angle you'd need a 15mm or wider which would limit you to a very small selection of lenses.

Matthew

Because we already have those lenses and would like a compact digital body to use them on. And focal length isn't the only measure of usability...it's the particular character of those lenses.

I'm pretty satisfied with the R-D1, but the 15mm Heliar on that thing would be an amazingly compact, high-quality setup.

[Matthew Allen]

Because we already have those lenses and would like a compact digital body to use them on. And focal length isn't the only measure of usability...it's the particular character of those lenses.

I'm pretty satisfied with the R-D1, but the 15mm Heliar on that thing would be an amazingly compact, high-quality setup.

Fair enough, but it's lenses like the 35 and 50 Summicrons and Summiluxes that make Leica special and no matter how much you love them they would inevitably (at least for me) be 'demoted' to occasionally used portrait/tele glass on this new body.

The 15mm might well be a nice partner for the little Olympus but I think f4.5 might start to feel rather slow with the not-terribly-wide FOV.

This is all IMHO of course. It's just I feel that the usefulness of M compatibility is over emphasized when it comes to these significantly less than FF sized sensors.

Matthew

[angeloks]

I got the E420 and the 25mm Pancake and I loved them ! This new camera is even more exciting. This new Micro 4/3 with the 12mm, 15mm from CV or the 18mm from Zeiss along with an external VF, that would be perfect !

[morgan]

This looks awesome to me as another camera in the arsenal kind of thing. Give me that and a few fast primes, and it'd be what i wanted the DP1 to be. I love the styling and would love an external VF with it.

[dazedgonebye]

I'm convinced something m4/3rds could take the place of my Bessa RF and lenses...depending on implimentation and available lenses.
Heck, it could take the place of my Hexar AF, except that I still want to shoot some film.

[allen_a_george]

There ARE dials and knobs enough for everyone.

Take a look HERE. (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092208olympus_micro_four_thirds.asp)

I posit that the top-mounted dial is only a mode dial (i.e. A, S, M, scene modes). There is no front or rear control dial to quickly shift through apertures or shutter speeds.

I certainly don't expect design studies to be functional, but I do expect basic ergonomics to be thought out and included - and that appears to be the case here. It looks to me like a compact camera for the everyman - someone who wants good image quality, but doesn't want to fiddle with camera controls. This model is not going to be the rangefinder alternative that many want.

[Henrik]

Imagine that thing with the 21/1,4 Summilux :cool: :D

[dazedgonebye]

I posit that the top-mounted dial is only a mode dial (i.e. A, S, M, scene modes). There is no front or rear control dial to quickly shift through apertures or shutter speeds.

I certainly don't expect design studies to be functional, but I do expect basic ergonomics to be thought out and included - and that appears to be the case here. It looks to me like a compact camera for the everyman - someone who wants good image quality, but doesn't want to fiddle with camera controls. This model is not going to be the rangefinder alternative that many want.

First, from this stage to final product, pretty much anything goes...though I do agree with you as to where they seem to be headed.
Second, from my perspective, it requires only aperture priority AE and relatively easy access to aperture and iso settings. That should be easily done with few buttons.

This may not be an alternative to a full function rangefinder camera, but it'll do as a digital Hexar AF...except with interchangeable lenses.
:cool:

[Jamie Pillers]

Does anyone here yet understand how the micro 4/3 system affects the idea of crop factor?

Given that Olympus is building smaller diameter lenses designed to be much closer to the sensor (which I'm assuming is something like the size of a APS-C size sensor), will there be a "crop factor" involved? In other words, will their 28mm f2 lens (I'm hoping here :p) actually be a 28/2 lens, or will have to face the annoying 28 x 1.5 = 42mm calculation that turns my once fast wide prime lens into an average normal lens?

[dazedgonebye]

Does anyone here yet understand how the micro 4/3 system affects the idea of crop factor?

Given that Olympus is building smaller diameter lenses designed to be much closer to the sensor (which I'm assuming is something like the size of a APS-C size sensor), will there be a "crop factor" involved? In other words, will their 28mm f2 lens (I'm hoping here :p) actually be a 28/2 lens, or will have to face the annoying 28 x 1.5 = 42mm calculation that turns my once fast wide prime lens into an average normal lens?

2x crop. If you want 28mm, you'll need to look for 14mm.

[Spyderman]

Jamie: The u4/3 has the same sensor size as 4/3 and the size is something like 18x14mm. In other words, anylens of X mm focal length will have field of view similar to a lens with focal length 2X on 35mm film.


I don't quite understand why some people here want to stick M lenses on it. I'm sure Olympus, Panasonic and maybe also Leica will produce some good glass designed specifically for this new standard, so the lenses will have better coating, autofocus, appropriate focal length... etc.

Just think about manual focussing it on the LCD :eek:

PS: and if Leica indeed does make a lens for u4/3, maybe they will put a proper aperture ring on it...

[shadowfox]

I don't want to stick M-lenses on it, I want to use those high quality cinema/movie camera lenses with focal length like 12.5mm :D

I wonder if these lenses will cover 18x13 sensor?

[Solinar]

Does anyone here yet understand how the micro 4/3 system affects the idea of crop factor?

A 20mm lens in front of a 4/3rd sensor has roughly the same FOV as a 40mm on a full frame 35mm camera.

Let's see Pana / Oly & Samsung have plans for either an APS-C or 4/3 Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens cameras. The Sigma DP-1 may have a rough time selling once these EVIL digitals hit the stores.

[dazedgonebye]

A 20mm lens in front of a 4/3rd sensor has roughly the same FOV as a 40mm on a full frame 35mm camera.

Let's see Pana / Oly & Samsung have plans for either an APS-C or 4/3 Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens cameras. The Sigma DP-1 may have a rough time selling once these EVIL digitals hit the stores.

Too bad Oly is not putting something like this out right away. I'm ready for this type of camera, but not ready enough to buy Panasonic's version. On the other hand, by the time Oly has thiers out, I should have an additional choice from Samsung.

[Solinar]

I'd say wait for the Oly micro 4/3rds to come out and hopefully with fingers crossed, bless us with a couple of compact primes just for this mount. On the second part I know that I'm not being realistic, mainly because the mass market isn't primes, it is zooms.

[Solinar]

Specifically designed lenses for this format like a 17mm f1.4 would be the way to go IMO.
Manual focus with repect to distance or zone is good with me as an option. Set to 1m or 2m etc. At 35mm focal length I rarely use the viewfinder anyway. :p

I was thinking the same, anywhere between a 14 and 18 - but anything faster than f/2.8 in a short focal length is going to cost big bucks.

[like2fiddle]

If any of you receive Rangefinder Magazine, there is a short write-up about the camera in the current issue. I was reading it late last night, so I may be remembering wrong, but I think the jist of the article was that this will be a mirrorless/prismless DSLR that will be able to take advantage of the more compact, high quality rangefinder lenses. Their take seemed to be that a camera like this will be appealing to those who prefer the smaller rangefinder type of camera.

[ElrodCod]

Obviously, it only becomes a throwaway camera if one literally throws it away.

There are plenty of older digital cameras still in use. Plenty.

And for what it is worth, there have been lots of cheap, plastic, throwawy film cameras made too. It all depends on the quality of the camera being made, regardless if it is a film or digital camera.

Your statement is ludicrous.

Older? Ten years older? Fifteen? Digital cameras have only been mainstream consumer goods that long. Do you think that this camera will still be around 50 years from now. If so, will it still work? Will anyone even remember it? I think not, it'll be in the landfill with all the rest of the detritus of the "digital" age.

[monkeypainter]

I don't quite understand why some people here want to stick M lenses on it.

'cause this are the lenses I have.

[Ray Nalley]

At some point you gotta leave the M lenses behind. As must Leica.

[Rick Waldroup]

Older? Ten years older? Fifteen? Digital cameras have only been mainstream consumer goods that long. Do you think that this camera will still be around 50 years from now. If so, will it still work? Will anyone even remember it? I think not, it'll be in the landfill with all the rest of the detritus of the "digital" age.


Gary, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, "This ain't yesteryear and I'm not the Lone Ranger."

Get with the times my friend, or forever stay with your head in the sand. You like film. Good for you. So did I. Not anymore.

Embrace the new. It is here to stay. The day I quit learning as a photographer is the day I will stop being a photographer.

Now, I am only saying this in jest. :D

I like where we headed in this medium. It really is a brave new world.

[photomoof]

2x crop. If you want 28mm, you'll need to look for 14mm.

Not actually a crop factor, this camera is built for 4/3rds, lenses not older lenses made for 35mm cameras.

Of course a 25 will be a normal lens, just as an 80 is a normal on medium format.

It is just a new format. I sure don't want another point n shoot will no viewfinder, I will wait, but I sure want a small camera besides the M8. I tried the M8 and just could not warm up to it.

[dazedgonebye]

Not actually a crop factor, this camera is built for 4/3rds, lenses not older lenses made for 35mm cameras.

Of course a 25 will be a normal lens, just as an 80 is a normal on medium format.

It is just a new format. I sure don't want another point n shoot will no viewfinder, I will wait, but I sure want a small camera besides the M8. I tried the M8 and just could not warm up to it.

Semantics.
I understand the 4/3rds people want that to be the line. For the rest of us, it is "normal" to think of things in terms of size relative to 35mm film. It was also in context of the person's question that I answered 2x.

[Jamie Pillers]

Thanks to Ondrej and others here who kindly responded to my question about this camera's crop factor with answers such as "a 20mm lens on will be 40mm on the 4/3 sensor".

However I'm not convinced yet. First the title "4/3" is only a ratio... not necessarily absolute numbers. Is there any evidence yet that this sensor is exactly the same absolute size as the sensors in other Oly 4/3 cameras?

Second, I get the impression that the lens mount on this prototype might be closer to the sensor than other 4/3 camera bodies. If that turns out to be the case, then the image circle of the lens gets smaller... approaching the size of the sensor and thus reducing the crop factor closer to 1.0.

The point I was trying to make in my first post (not very well I admit) is that it appears that there's potential for a camera here that has a crop factor approaching 1.0... at least until we see the actual specs, hopefully not too far off in the future. :)

[Spyderman]

Jamie: the mount plane to sensor plane distance is 20mm, which is half of what 4/3 has (40mm) and that's why it's called micro 4/3 (u4/3 for me). The sensor size is the same. Why don't you read the announcements about the u4/3 at dpreview.com ?

Oly and Panasonic strongly support this system, so I doubt they will ever increase the sensor size. They are trying to make 4/3 a system with wide compatibility, not a mix of cameras with various sensor sizes and lenses with various image circles... The u4/3 will be reverse-compatible with 4/3 via an adapter that will transfer all functions like AF, aperture. The other way it won't be possible because of the short distance from mount to focal plane.

BTW: the 4/3 doesn't mean anything (like 4/3 of an inch or something like that), it's simply a name and should be read as "4/3".

[Matthew Allen]

BTW: the 4/3 doesn't mean anything (like 4/3 of an inch or something like that), it's simply a name and should be read as "4/3".

Actually it does mean something - it refers to an archaic video camera tube standard with a 4/3" diameter. All the same, the modern digital camera standard should be written simply as 4/3 just as you say.

Matthew

[kshapero]

My setup of lenses would go normal on up!

[ElrodCod]

Gary, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, "This ain't yesteryear and I'm not the Lone Ranger."

Get with the times my friend, or forever stay with your head in the sand. You like film. Good for you. So did I. Not anymore.

Embrace the new. It is here to stay. The day I quit learning as a photographer is the day I will stop being a photographer.

Now, I am only saying this in jest. :D

I like where we headed in this medium. It really is a brave new world.

I'm holding out for the Quantum cameras.;)

[Rick Waldroup]

I'm holding out for the Quantum cameras.;)

Now that is funny. :D

You, of all people, Gary, should at least appreciate the crisp, clean design of the camera? Someone mentioned that is has a certain art deco look to it and I agree. :cool:

I can't wait to see all of the specs on the camera.

[Jamie Pillers]

Actually, "4/3" does mean something. Its the ratio of the length of the sensor to its width. Just like a 35mm film frame is "3/2"... the ratio of 36 to 24.

[ferider]

You are right, Jamie. Except 35mm format being sqrt(2)/1 (close to 3/2 but a bit off), like the European DIN formats :)

Cheers,

Roland.

[George S.]

RE: "Sticking Leica glass on it..."


While I recognize that a lot of Leica glass is the finest in the world, you also have to realize that Olympus is quite capable of also making lenses just about as good if not as good. If you haven't tried some of the older SLR Zuiko lenses you are really missing out on some special lenses.

One thought on the micro RF- the lens release button is definitely in the wrong location...

[photomoof]

Actually, "4/3" does mean something. Its the ratio of the length of the sensor to its width. Just like a 35mm film frame is "3/2"... the ratio of 36 to 24.

And here I thought it meant the age of the system's designer, or the address of Olympus. :rolleyes:

[BillBingham2]

I don't quite understand why some people here want to stick M lenses on it. I'm sure Olympus, Panasonic and maybe also Leica will produce some good glass designed specifically for this new standard, so the lenses will have better coating, autofocus, appropriate focal length... etc.

Just think about manual focussing it on the LCD :eek:



YES: While I would prefer the Green Camera approach (putting a digital back on a Nikon S2/3/4, F/2/3 or say an M6, I would not be against getting new glass as long as it was as good as the stuff I have today. Lots of Zuiko glass was great but there is such a focus (pardon the pun) on zooms I'm not sure what would come out.

No: Do not get hung up on optical rangefinders, think digital. Lots of DLSRs have a little green light that lights up when it hits the right focus (when focusing manually), why not a DSLR? Put it on the top like the LEDs on the Bessa T so you can see them with your eye in the optical brightline finder and it would be great. Show it on the LCD for those times you shot that way and I think you would have a world class camera.

What about: Now if you have two rocker switches (like the single one on the back of the GR-D) to control aperture and shutter speed. How do you pronounce WINNER!!

B2 (;->

[sevres_babylone]

And here I thought it meant the age of the system's designer, or the address of Olympus.
I thought it was a tribute to the Patriots defense, and that's why (at least on the Panasonic version) it comes with video.:)
Oh wait a second, they run the 3/4...

[wyk_penguin]

Great looking camera. It will be interesting to see what lens Olympus markets with this and what other lenses will be in the line-up. I am sure you will be able to mount some type of external viewfinder on the hot shoe. I could care less about using the monitor as my viewfinder.

The micro 4/3 system is going to be exciting for photographers.

It would be a good RF if only they put an RF on it.

[Trius]

It's just what the world needs....another throwaway digital camera.
How does that photo imply throwaway? Dude, you have issues! ;)

Oh, I see, because it's digital. Well here's the thing ... as much as I love film, digital cameras are here to stay, and until someone invents a digicam/DSLR that will operate forever, we're stuck with what can be/is produced. Given that the vast majority of people who are interested in buying a camera will buy digital, your/my preference for film doesn't mean squat.

There are times when I want the convenience of digital, but I am frustrated because:


B&W image quality sucks, IMO
Digicams & DSLRs are so damn button/menu crazy that the camera actually DISCONNECTS me from the act of making a photograph


So the idea is that I want a digital Olympus 35SP or OM -- simple, straightforward, analog controls, etc. If this camera gets close enough to that goal and I can put really good glass on it, then hey, that's a gain.

For the most part, gone are the days of high end gear that lasts forever. I am just now retiring audio components that I bought used in the mid-80s. They still work fine, but the living room system needs the functionality of a well-designed AV receiver.

Believe me, I believe in quality and long product life. But in the digital camera world, that's pretty rare, if it exists at all. So yeah, I'll keep shooting my Olympus film gear, but I ain't tilting at the windmill when they make progress on the digital front.

[ZeissFan]

This is a tiny body. I would worry that most M-mount lenses would end up being bigger and heavier than the body.

I think we should give up on the thought of using existing lenses with this camera.

PLUS, there's the 2x factor. I'd rather see what lenses Olympus develops.

[ZeissFan]

And to further add:

A Leica lens probably would be larger than the body. Imagine trying to manually focus a lens on a tiny LCD screen in the daylight. Meanwhile, you're trying to steady the body, because you're doing all of this at arm's length because there is no optical viewfinder.

Now, think of trying this with an LTM lens with an infinity lock. Plus, that 50mm Summitar is a 100mm lens, magnifying camera shake. Each tiny movement of your hand is magnified while you try to focus the lens.

On the wide side, your exotic 21mm lens becomes a rather pedestrian 42mm.

Sure you could do it, but in use it would be cumbersome.

This continues to be mentioned ("I want to use my Leica lenses with it."). While everyone can continue to dream, it's not an idea that would not be any fun to use.

[photomoof]

A Leica lens probably would be larger than the body. Imagine trying to manually focus a lens on a tiny LCD screen in the daylight. Meanwhile, you're trying to steady the body, because you're doing all of this at arm's length because there is no optical viewfinder.

Yep, as pretty as they are the days of these old style machine-shop mount lenses Leica is turning out is going to end. Their retro hand-made look is very appealing, and has a real look of quality, but they are not going to work on this new style of body. Some like the new 21 1.4 would be like putting on an 800 mm lens on a D700.

[ElrodCod]

Yep, as pretty as they are the days of these old style machine-shop mount lenses Leica is turning out is going to end. Their retro hand-made look is very appealing, and has a real look of quality, but they are not going to work on this new style of body. Some like the new 21 1.4 would be like putting on an 800 mm lens on a D700.

Thanks. I couldn't have made a better case against digital cameras myself.