View Full Version : News on the Fuji GF670 - very upsetting
From a Fuji press release for the upcoming Photokina trade show:
"The FUJIFILM GF670 Professional medium-format camera, developed jointly by Fujifilm and Cosina will also be displayed at Photokina 2008 as a reference exhibit (the camera will be marketed under the FUJIFILM brand in Japan only)."
Why oh why would they not sell it outside of Japan ?
The fact that they are releasing it at all is pretty good news!
(the camera will be marketed under the FUJIFILM brand in Japan only)."
There is another thread about this. You can interpret the statement as: "The camera will be sold outside of Japan under the COSINA brand." Like the xPan which was sold in Japan under the Fuji brand and everywhere else under the Hasselblad brand.
Cheers!
Abbazz
sockeyed
09-17-2008, 15:43
Or maybe under the "Voigtlander" brand. Why not?
Well, since we got ebay, I'm sure you will be able to get one from Japan. ;)
Or maybe under the "Voigtlander" brand. Why not?
I want a Bessa RF MkII in black lacquer finish (like the Bessa R3M). Now!
Cheers!
Abbazz
dazedgonebye
09-17-2008, 16:38
Just keep singing, "It's a small world after all..."
It might be harder to get, but we'll still get them here.
Just keep singing, "It's a small world after all..."
It might be harder to get, but we'll still get them here.
That's exactly what I've been thinking - thanks to internet sales.
Matsuiya Store. A great dealer and source to many on this forum.
The glass is way more than half full.
We live in a global village. Where there's a will there's a way!
ItsReallyDarren
09-17-2008, 18:32
It'll be interesting to see what the camera will be released under for the "rest of the world" markets.
There's always Dirk Rösler and his Megaperls webshop (http://www.unicircuits.com/shop/).
BillBingham2
09-17-2008, 20:20
Any ideas on cost?
I always lusted after the small 645 folding. This is a bit big, but very classic.
B2 (;->
I want a Bessa RF MkII in black lacquer finish (like the Bessa R3M). Now!
Cheers!
Abbazz
music to my ears.
Cosina here, Cosina there....Cosina, Cosina, Cosina.
Was I a detective I would investigate about Cosina and the M8 :)
Cheers,
Ruben
PS,
Against the trend, when I write a jocke I never add a smilie. Today I am making exception.
OK, so is this camera made mostly or entirely by Cosina? Did Cosina make other MF cameras for Fuji? What is the Fuji/Cosina track record like?
Wayne, I don't know a thing about a Cosina / Fuji connection, but my Fuji GW690 III is very Cosina like in build. It is like a giant version of a Minolta 7SII or Konica S3. It works, but it isn't as heavy duty as my older gear.
ClaremontPhoto
09-19-2008, 06:58
In my opinion the GW67 will be a slow selling niche product for Fuji once the initial demand is satisfied.
Look at how much prominence it gets in the 8 page Fuji Photokina press release. Just 3 lines on page 8. Hardly center stage, and I just hope Stephen Gandy can find it when he visits the Fuji stand.
It cannot be worth Fuji manufacturing this camera themselves. They may as well follow the route that Zeiss took with the ZM and have Cosina do the manufacturing.
whitecat
09-19-2008, 06:59
Any rumors on cost yet?
I have a friend traveling to Tokio in 2 month's ;-)
ClaremontPhoto
09-19-2008, 07:17
Any rumors on cost yet?
There was rumor in the British press of £650 (€825, $1170).
Windscale
09-19-2008, 08:00
There was rumor in the British press of £650 (€825, $1170).
My God! Who would want it for this price?
Tuolumne
09-19-2008, 08:40
My God! Who would want it for this price?
That actually seems like a fair price. It's cheaper that the ZI rangefinder which doesn't come with a lens and shoots smaller format film.
/T
that's a bit less than most people were expecting. good news if it's true.
I always wanted to visit Japan.
sockeyed
09-19-2008, 08:52
I think that it might $1000 or so. Think about the cost of a Voigtlander Bessa rangefinder body plus the cost of a Heliar-75 lens.
Windscale
09-19-2008, 08:53
For an 80mm f3.5 standard lens I would not consider it "fair price". For a 50mm lens may be!
Ronald_H
09-19-2008, 08:56
Hah, people complain about the price! Something as niche and big (and nice!) as this! Made in Japan too!
They probably will justify the price for a Leica though... somehow.
It's not for me, but somehow I think it is a heartwarming effort from Fuji and Mr. K. Boy, does that guy have great hobby...
ClaremontPhoto
09-19-2008, 09:07
I too think that pricing looks low.
The nearest comparable I could find quickly is a Mamiya 7II at £1115 ($2000).
It's not the same, but it's similar enough.
I predicted (http://davidbram.blogspot.com/2008/02/my-two-cents-on-new-fuji-folder.html) between $1000 and $1500 back in February.
Can someone post actual proof of this price of $1170 ?
ClaremontPhoto
09-19-2008, 09:35
Can someone post actual proof of this price of $1170 ?
No, that's what makes it a rumor.
Ronald_H
09-19-2008, 09:38
I said it wasn't for me, but for $1170 I'd be sorely tempted...
Come on, guys, how much lower could it be than $1,000? We'd be lucky to get it for that. Just look at the prices of used Fuji MF cameras on Ebay for comparison. Of course that was before Lehman went bankrupt and the Feds are getting ready to enact a trillion dollar bailout of the financial system. Just means you won't be able to pay for the camera with a loan!
dazedgonebye
09-19-2008, 10:02
There was rumor in the British press of £650 (€825, $1170).
Hey, if they work the prices like Canon does, that'll mean $750 US! :D
I don't think $1200 is out of line. When do you anticipate this sort of camera becoming available again, if you don't go for this one?
KoNickon
09-19-2008, 10:05
I figured it would be over $1,000 so that doesn't unduly phase me. To me the more important concern is that this not be one of those limited edition products where the entire production gets snapped up before the rest of the world gets a chance to buy it.
Jason Sprenger
09-19-2008, 10:06
A folder with a modern normal lens, a clean & new RF, hot shoe, strap lugs, and a new shutter in MF format is very compelling to me.
That actually seems like a fair price. It's cheaper that the ZI rangefinder which doesn't come with a lens and shoots smaller format film.
/T
All three of my Zi rangefinders came with a fixed 55-90 Zoom. I just looked in the cabinet over my monitor and the current Zi has a lens. Shoots wonderful 645 pics.
On the price, that's a very nice price (US1170). It's a bunch less than all the big (670,680, and 690) Fuji rangefinder fixed lens cameras sold for new. Furthermore it's a Fuji, with Fuji glass. I think it's a great value at that price new, if it ends up there.
If it's anywhere under $1500, and considering it's pedigree, I'm going to step up for one.
I figured it would be over $1,000 so that doesn't unduly phase me. To me the more important concern is that this not be one of those limited edition products where the entire production gets snapped up before the rest of the world gets a chance to buy it.
Tooling up for a limited run on a new camera is crazy. Restarting the previous tooling and assembly for a limited edition of a previous camera makes sense.
Few others have intro'd a new quality medium format camera in some time. I would like to think that if this is Fuji's way of showing a film commitment, they will produce and sell these until the market is tapped out.
Pherdinand
09-19-2008, 10:45
kuzano...ZI was referring to Zeiss Ikon, not the fuji zoom lens folder.
mdelevie
09-19-2008, 23:35
anyone else think this is hilarious?
"Let's go digital" ... indeed! Let's all go digital!
See original image on original post, or this one.
I promise I'll use my fingers (eg, "digits") when I'm shooting this camera. Does that count?
Day 2 of Photokina. Did Fuji make any real announcement regarding this camera? Have samples on display? Anybody there? Anybody pick this camera up?
ClaremontPhoto
09-23-2008, 06:27
Today (Tuesday 23 September) is the first full day.
Yesterday was for press only.
Stephen Gandy is there, and I think Roger Hicks also.
The GF670 is a very minor part of Fuji's exhibit, as evidenced that in a recent 8 page press release it merited just 3 lines at the bottom of page 8.
shadowfox
09-23-2008, 07:34
I hope this camera sells like a hotcake in Japan. At about $1000, people in Japan will eat them up.
It even has a cool side-effect: Fuji will have more incentive to continue production of 120 roll films (I don't see Kodak's continuing interest in this).
kuzano...ZI was referring to Zeiss Ikon, not the fuji zoom lens folder.
I messed with too many Zeiss folders. I forget that they make contemporary cameras..
Plus, I am a Fujifan, having six of them currently, and one a black Zi. My fourth Zi.
No intent to offend, and you are right about those price comparizons, not to mention the fact that the 35mm ZI shoots a negative that's 1/5th the size of the GF670 folder.
I hope this camera sells like a hotcake in Japan. At about $1000, people in Japan will eat them up.
It even has a cool side-effect: Fuji will have more incentive to continue production of 120 roll films (I don't see Kodak's continuing interest in this).
Is there an implication that the Japanese consumer is shooting more film? It could mean that the production runs will be sucked up by the Japanese consumers rather readily?
ClaremontPhoto
09-23-2008, 11:56
Hey, if they work the prices like Canon does, that'll mean $750 US!
No, because there won't be a USD price, or EUR price, or a GBP price.
If you want this camera you'll need to pay for it in Japanese Yen at whatever the exchange rate is on the day.
dazedgonebye
09-23-2008, 11:58
No, because there won't be a USD price, or EUR price, or a GBP price.
If you want this camera you'll need to pay for it in Japanese Yen at whatever the exchange rate is on the day.
Humor attempt...failed once again. :(
Fresh from Photokina:
1st pic from the Fuji booth, next to it was the Fuji version; 2nd pic from the voigtländer booth; the guy there had some informations:
120 and 220
Dual format: 6x6 and 6x7 via curtains (maybe this is only a masking of the 6x7? No details)
Expected to be available spring 2009, no price available.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63709&stc=1&d=1222272145
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63708&stc=1&d=1222272135
wlewisiii
09-24-2008, 08:07
Oh my poor aching wallet! That is too pretty for words - a real Bessa from Mr K. How am I going to come up with the coins for this ... :bang: :bang: :bang: :(
William
dazedgonebye
09-24-2008, 08:15
It does 6x6?!?! Bessa Voigtlander branded?
Oh man...that makes it even more compelling. I'll never get away from film with something like this coming out.
I may have to sell my R3A/40mm Nokton for this.
luketrash
09-24-2008, 08:23
For some reason, I remember the prototype having a 60mm lens which is much more interesting to me than an 80mm lens.
Either way, I'm happy to see this thing becoming a reality!
wlewisiii
09-24-2008, 08:28
I believe it was a 90mm on last years display - that would be the normal length for a 6x7 camera. 80 is normal for 6x6. I'm rather curious if it's a real heliar/dynar design or only heliar in name.
William
Pherdinand
09-24-2008, 08:58
yay:) neat stuff! I want one!
No, i want two!
BTW: who said anything about "around $1K"? (besides the rumors)
And a pic of the Fuji:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63716&stc=1&d=1222276464
pompadork
09-24-2008, 09:14
So does the Bessa branding mean that it will be sold outside of Japan?
Ray Nalley
09-24-2008, 09:19
I'm guessing closer to $2,000. Buyers of such a camera will not be price sensitive.
Pherdinand
09-24-2008, 09:23
i'm afraid i got to agree with Ray here. :(
wlewisiii
09-24-2008, 09:25
DN - fixed lens. It's essentially impossible to have a high optical quality interchangable lens system. The best done was probably the Retina IIIc but still...
P- Since we'd heard the Fuji was Japan only, it's the VC for the rest of us ala Hassy & the XPan.
$2k? Alas, probably. Gotta figure out a way to afford this puppy.
William
Pherdinand
09-24-2008, 09:29
in theory, the bellows could be made for the normal lens (80mm), and make it interchangeable designing a retrofocus wide lens and a tele that both have the same flange to film distance as the normal. They would need to come with their own focusing helical, with some rf coupling, AND with own shutter, though. This makes them rather large for the folding mechanism, in medium format.
I guess it would be cheaper to make three slightly different bodies and glue those lenses on the bodies...
Just when I thought that I was 'done'....
If I win the M8 in the LHSA raffle :D, I may trade it in for one (or two) of these.
Looks really cool. Wondering though how can they call the same lens two different things? Like minolta and leica for the CL?
micromontenegro
09-24-2008, 09:53
2009 looks like a very expensive year. I have only once in my entire life brought a new camera... and it seems I will have to get TWO in 2009
dazedgonebye
09-24-2008, 10:00
We will remain optimistic.
It will cost around $1k and be readily available.
shadowfox
09-24-2008, 10:09
Sweeeeet!!
Although I welcome the Voigtlander III and Heliar (in name only, I suspect), somehow I am waiting for one with a Fujinon with EBC coating lens :)
Nevermind, didn't see the last picture :p
JonasYip
09-24-2008, 10:13
I *so* don't need one of these. But I'm so going to have to get one.
So does the Bessa branding mean that it will be sold outside of Japan?
This is excellent news. My understanding is that the camera will be branded as a FUJIFILM in Japan and a Voigtlander Bessa III outside of Japan.
http://davidbram.blogspot.com/2008/09/fuji-gf670-is-new-voigtlander-667.html
667 - we'll have to wait to see how that works.
Harry Lime
09-24-2008, 10:31
I'm guessing closer to $2,000. Buyers of such a camera will not be price sensitive.
I would be sensitive to that and if it's $2,000 I'm not buying one.
But for $1,000 I may just get one.
Ray Nalley
09-24-2008, 10:32
Sorry, Harry. I suspect this is a toy for rich boys.
dazedgonebye
09-24-2008, 10:48
Sorry, Harry. I suspect this is a toy for rich boys.
If it were limited to a Fuji namplate and sold only in Japan, I'd be afraid of the price.
Somehow though, I don't think Mr. K. will do that to us. Cameraquest will be taking pre-orders starting in January at $1195 a copy.
Yep, that's my wild arse'd guess and you heard it here first.
Ray Nalley
09-24-2008, 10:55
Pit, this thread is mostly about guessing and suspecting. And your point?
I'm in serious trouble. I had to ask! Thanks for the photos. It's a pity that it doesn't fold a bit flatter. No worries. Slimmer than the Pentax 6x7.
Hmmmmmmmmm...I have a ton of 220 film in the fridge. I have a 6x6 enlarger. I have an 80mm El-Nikkor.
Yep. I'm in deep manure trouble.
Ray Nalley
09-24-2008, 11:06
Well, it's clearly a niche camera. Any new MF film folder in this day is a niche product. So sales are clearly going to be limited, meaning the company has to recoup its development costs over fewer units. Comparable folders sale for high prices used. Taking all of this into consideration, $2,000 seems reasonable.
I'm in serious trouble. I had to ask! Thanks for the photos. It's a pity that it doesn't fold a bit flatter. No worries. Slimmer than the Pentax 6x7.
Hmmmmmmmmm...I have a ton of 220 film in the fridge. I have a 6x6 enlarger. I have an 80mm El-Nikkor.
Yep. I'm in deep manure trouble.
It's definitely slimmer than my Fuji GW690 III.
I know there few 6x9 enlargers out there, but I have one and a 6x9 with modern parallax corrected frame lines in the VF would have been greatly appreciated. :D
Ray Nalley
09-24-2008, 11:34
There you go, Pit, speculating.
wlewisiii
09-24-2008, 11:35
Ahh, okay. Thanks William. Not a deal breaker, and probably for the better. I've got enough lenses to choke a horse...
If this will be $2k, then I'm going with a Mamiya 7.
I can understand that. Personally, I'm rather much happier with 6x6 & a normal lens but that suits my type of shooting. I'll admit I'd be happier if it were cheaper, but I doubt it. We'll know more soon enough.
William
If the price is $1195, they will sell a lot of them.
If the price is $2000, they won't sell many.
This is not a complex camera to make. Almost no electronics and certainly no digital sensor.
There you go, Pit, speculating.
Hey Ray, it seems like you came over to the forum to stir up trouble. If a new RF folder doesn't float your boat, shove off and ignore it.
Ray Nalley
09-24-2008, 11:47
Stir up trouble? I'm not the only one talking about the price.
freeranger
09-24-2008, 11:56
I have just informed to Wife to cancel my Christmas presents this year.
I'm saving up my pocket money!
mabelsound
09-24-2008, 12:13
Oh my God, I love it!
dazedgonebye
09-24-2008, 12:16
So, I've heard a lot of "give me the black one," in discussions on this camera. I usually go for the all black look myself, but this one says "silver/black" to me. Just something about a folder that wants to be that way.
Anyone else?
From this image, the camera appears to have an AE mode.
Any info on the metering?
There is a metering cell just to the side of the RF window. It looks like it will be using an electronic leaf-shutter in a similar fashion to the Plaubel-Makina 67.
KoNickon
09-24-2008, 12:19
I didn't see anything clarifying whether this was switchable 120 and 220 format -- anyone know?
Pretty nifty! I am stoked that Cosina is making this -- if the lens is a joint design with Fuji it's going to be a cracker. What a great travel camera this could be. (Though affording both this and the vacation might be tough!)
dazedgonebye
09-24-2008, 12:20
Any speculation on that lens design from the scant information?
80mm, 4 groups, 6 elements.
mabelsound
09-24-2008, 12:23
This is making me start to think that, if the camera industry stopped making film tomorrow, Mr. K would start making it next Thursday.
KoNickon
09-24-2008, 12:26
Thanks, Pitxu, I didn't see that other thread. Six elements, four groups -- consistent with a Heliar design. And it is 120/220; excellent.
I'm assuming that you can't switch between 6x6 and 6x7 midroll; that's fine. But if you can, that would be really something (and unique, as far as I know).
I knew the metering couldn't be through-lens, of course -- but cameras like the Hexar AF meter just fine without being TTL. AE metering with exposure compensation is a nice plus.
I am content!
KoNickon
09-24-2008, 12:29
Well, I misspoke -- a Heliar design is 5 elements in 3 groups. But I suppose it could be a Heliar modification. Somehow I think the lens will be quite good, regardless of its true design.
would you assume the fujinon and Heliar to be the same lens?
How about filters / hood, it is quite important for outdoor photography, where this camera will shine (IMHO)
KoNickon
09-24-2008, 12:32
Probably the same lens, just rebadged. If in fact it's two different lenses -- oh God. People will have to have both, like a Planar and Xenotar.
micromontenegro
09-24-2008, 12:33
So, I've heard a lot of "give me the black one," in discussions on this camera. I usually go for the all black look myself, but this one says "silver/black" to me. Just something about a folder that wants to be that way.
Anyone else?
Absolutely. I want mine in silver-
PhotoMat
09-24-2008, 12:40
Seems to be two different lenses. Or just re-named?
(compare with photo above)
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63708&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1222272135 (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63708&d=1222272135)
It appears that it says "Bessa" on the top plate. That may give us further insight into the badging and distribution for the Japanese and export versions.
David Goldfarb
09-24-2008, 13:59
V/C has been recycling a lot of Voigtländer brand names, but there is no correlation between the modern lenses and the historic designs in general. I presume the lens will be a plasmat or Planar variant and will be the same on both cameras.
KoNickon
09-24-2008, 14:26
True enough about the Voigtlander lens names, as employed by Cosina. I guess I'm encouraged by not seeing "Aspheric" on the lens anywhere -- not by any means to say that aspheric designs are to be avoided, but simply that perhaps the lens will be of a more traditional design, like those of the classic Bessa folders.
The lens says Heliar - but it is 6 elements in 4 groups. A true Heliar has 5 elements in 3 groups.
dear god, someone get word to mr. k: remove the "667" label on the front of the camera. absolutely hideous. if anything, they should put "voigtlander" on the front to be historically correct, and move "bessa iii" where it currently says "voigtlander".
anyhow, the new dual format feature sounds awesome!
AJShepherd
09-25-2008, 00:51
That's good news about it being sold outside of Japan. It'll be a nice big brother to my Bessa R3A!
I'm with Aizan on the logo placing though.
667: Across the street from the Beast!
Can't wait to see the price. Can my pocket stand it?
That's good news about it being sold outside of Japan. It'll be a nice big brother to my Bessa R3A!
I'm with Aizan on the logo placing though.
667: Across the street from the Beast!
Can't wait to see the price. Can my pocket stand it?
As far as I care about names, they can even call it Holga II.
But I share your concerns about price and pockets.
ClaremontPhoto
09-25-2008, 01:41
dear god, someone get word to mr. k: remove the "667" label on the front of the camera. absolutely hideous...
You could buy the Fuji branded version instead.
Pherdinand
09-25-2008, 03:33
How about the old "69" designations, is that label also starting some weird assotiations in your head?
:P
No. Should it? Which? :D
Kind regards
dazedgonebye
09-25-2008, 05:36
I had the same thought about 667.
"The Devil's little brother."
Might be the source of a good nickname in there somewhere.
shadowfox
09-25-2008, 06:42
Wait, the spec said that this beauty uses 120 *and* 220 films.
AFAIK there is no 220 format film made "fresh" anymore. Don't tell me that they are catering to film-in-the-fridge across the globe?
Does this mean we're going to see a new batch of 220 films being made somewhere? If so, I'm even happier :)
Yes, this is another question turned speculation turned rumor. Spread on! ;)
shadowfox
09-25-2008, 06:48
As far as I care about names, they can even call it Holga II.
But I share your concerns about price and pockets.
Same here, they can call it RamenSupaCamera-707 III and I'd still want one :)
mabelsound
09-25-2008, 06:50
AFAIK there is no 220 format film made "fresh" anymore. Don't tell me that they are catering to film-in-the-fridge across the globe?
here's some (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=0&sb=ps&sq=desc&sortDrop=Relevance&ac=&bsi=&bhs=t&shs=220&ci=331&basicSubmit=Submit+Query)
KoNickon
09-25-2008, 07:30
Yeah, I wasn't aware that 220 film was no longer being made.
I like 667 -- sounds like a muscle car. Rather quaint too -- reminds me of the Yashicamat 124 (combination of 12 and 24).
johnalex141r
09-25-2008, 07:33
Unfortunately, only one black and white film in 220 format; wish Ilford would fix their 220 machine; but that is not likely.
BTW - I picked up 10 rolls of TXP-220 (and 10 SFX200 in 120 format) in LA in August; 220 TXP IS available - it was really nice to be able to walk in and pick it up - just like the old days..... Hopefully my 10 rolls (and, more in the future) will do a little bit to keep Kodak producing 220 B&W film.
here's some (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=0&sb=ps&sq=desc&sortDrop=Relevance&ac=&bsi=&bhs=t&shs=220&ci=331&basicSubmit=Submit+Query)
JohnS.
David Goldfarb
09-25-2008, 07:48
Kodak is still offering TXP 220 and Kodak and Fuji have a variety of color neg and slide films in 220.
You could buy the Fuji branded version instead.
yeah, and there's always that roll of black tape.
Pherdinand
09-26-2008, 01:23
it was actually great with my 6x9 fuji, to use 220 slide and have 16 frames instead of 8 in one run.
They are still made, but it is not too easy to find them locally.
shadowfox
09-26-2008, 06:50
here's some (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=0&sb=ps&sq=desc&sortDrop=Relevance&ac=&bsi=&bhs=t&shs=220&ci=331&basicSubmit=Submit+Query)
I know that we still can get 220 films (not from Freestyle though, curiously).
But my question is: Do they still make them?
johnalex141r
09-26-2008, 07:03
My TXP-320 in 220 came from Freestyle in August, from the store.
What seems to happen is that the manufacturers make "batches" of film; cut it up, and then sell it. IIRC, from www.apug.org, the TXP-320 was a "test" to see if the market is still there. It appears that it is, if the film is no longer available from Freestyle.
Here's a story about Kodachrome, that might give more info on film production:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080922.wgtkodak0922/BNStory/Technology/
JohnS.
I know that we still can get 220 films (not from Freestyle though, curiously).
But my question is: Do they still make them?
Roger Hicks
09-29-2008, 11:17
Voigtländer outside Japan. I've handled it.
Cheers,
R.
Voigtländer outside Japan. I've handled it.
Cheers,
R.
Is mum the word or can you tell us about the viewfinder frame lines for 6x6 and 6x7?
This camera's nearest relative is Plaubel Makina 670 which is also a folder with an 80mm (Nikon) lens. Although the Makina has a light meter, it has no AE mode, BUT its lens is one stop brighter at f/2.8 and is of exceptional quality. Now consider this: Makinas have been out of production since 1987 AND one has just sold on eBay for $2,100.
Obviously someone must have been noticing the prices on used Plaubels and figured it was a market worth re-entering.
Update: Look here (http://www.flickr.com/groups/voigtlander667/discuss/72157608193573616/) - about $3,000???
--
Jan
This camera's nearest relative is Plaubel Makina 670 which is also a folder with an 80mm (Nikon) lens. Although the Makina has a light meter, it has no AE mode, BUT its lens is one stop brighter at f/2.8 and is of exceptional quality. Now consider this: Makinas have been out of production since 1987 AND one has just sold on eBay for $2,100.
Obviously someone must have been noticing the prices on used Plaubels and figured it was a market worth re-entering.
Update: Look here (http://www.flickr.com/groups/voigtlander667/discuss/72157608193573616/) - about $3,000???
About 3 weeks ago, I listed a Craigslist posting from Portland Oregon for a Plaubel Makina for $1000. It was just relisted again this week. When I listed the craigslist posting here, a bunch of people jumped in and pisssed all over the listing... about how it was worth $350 if that. All complaints, no positive comments.
I've been buying and selling camera's on ebay for about six years and I know my stuff. Furthermore, I've been pretty much a "gear hog" with ethics for 30 plus years. The craigslist post was complete with exceptions to the camera and it still looked like a decent value to me. I have to say, based on that "pass it along", that was the last time I bring a listing that is not my own, to this forum.
About 3 weeks ago, I listed a Craigslist posting from Portland Oregon for a Plaubel Makina for $1000. It was just relisted again this week. When I listed the craigslist posting here, a bunch of people jumped in and pisssed all over the listing... about how it was worth $350 if that. All complaints, no positive comments.
I don't know, people can piss all they want but the guy got his $2,100 (and it was a restricted US-only sale on top of that: clickety-click (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120326957335)). The W67 model goes even higher typically.
--
Jan
Ernst Dinkla
11-02-2008, 04:05
This camera's nearest relative is Plaubel Makina 670 which is also a folder with an 80mm (Nikon) lens. Although the Makina has a light meter, it has no AE mode, BUT its lens is one stop brighter at f/2.8 and is of exceptional quality. Now consider this: Makinas have been out of production since 1987 AND one has just sold on eBay for $2,100.
Obviously someone must have been noticing the prices on used Plaubels and figured it was a market worth re-entering.
Update: Look here (http://www.flickr.com/groups/voigtlander667/discuss/72157608193573616/) - about $3,000???
--
Jan
The pricing of small scale production items is more and more based on collector's value. It wouldn't surprise me if a quarter of the Bessa III's will not produce more than one roll of film and go into the velvet lined safe's of (Asian) collectors. Like me they vote with their wallet but the outcome is different. A perfect, legitimate marketing model. My assumption that Fuji wants to sell film with this camera has been wrong from the start. There's far more gain in selling this camera on its own. Fuji/Cosina would be smart to keep 10 percent of the production in their own vaults.
Ernst Dinkla
I don't know, people can piss all they want but the guy got his $2,100 (and it was a restricted US-only sale on top of that: clickety-click (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120326957335)). The W67 model goes even higher typically.Jan
I was absolutely shocked at the general response to the listing on this forum. I watched the sky that night and it was not a full moon. I'm pretty hesitant to post such "pass alongs" on forums, but I thought this would be a good idea... Wrong!
The pricing of small scale production items is more and more based on collector's value. It wouldn't surprise me if a quarter of the Bessa III's will not produce more than one roll of film and go into the velvet lined safe's of (Asian) collectors. Like me they vote with their wallet but the outcome is different. A perfect, legitimate marketing model. My assumption that Fuji wants to sell film with this camera has been wrong from the start. There's far more gain in selling this camera on its own. Fuji/Cosina would be smart to keep 10 percent of the production in their own vaults.
Ernst Dinkla
But part of me thinks that if Fuji was after a serious money collector market, Cosina would not have been included in the mix. I really think they intended to sell quite a few of these.
Ernst Dinkla
11-02-2008, 10:42
But part of me thinks that if Fuji was after a serious money collector market, Cosina would not have been included in the mix. I really think they intended to sell quite a few of these.
Splitting one model in two versions is another method to attract collector's money. Cameraquest already delivered the arguments to defend a high price, "niche demand" was mentioned. If the price is set high enough it will certainly create niche demand.
I also question where this folder was conceived, it has Mr. Kobayashi's signature all over and Fuji may well have been approached by Cosina to give it the label that film isn't dead. If Fuji had the guts they should have sponsered this project, it looks more they are in it halfhearted.
Ernst Dinkla
i still don't get why people think this will be any more "limited" or "collectible" than the zeiss ikon.
CameraQuest
11-02-2008, 11:11
Folks,
Eventually the new folder might be a collector's item, but I can assure you it is not intended to be one from the get go. It is designed to be a shooter, not a collectible.
However it remains to be see what the marketplace demand will be once the camera is available. Low marketplace demand could translate to low production, and that in turn could create a collectible.
Stephen
Then again you would have been better off buying Microsoft stock during the IPO.
If they had never taken this picture, I might have been wealthy by now:
Australian distributors are talking about AUD$1000-$1200: http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/webcontent38.htm
Fred Burton
11-10-2008, 02:18
It just seems to me that if CV set out to make a shooters camera, rather than a nostalgic collectible, the designers wouldn't have been channeling dead designers from the early 20th century and come up with a folding MF with a more modern design. The look, feel, bellows and knob wind make it pretty clear to me the market they are aiming at.
The look, feel, bellows and knob wind make it pretty clear to me the market they are aiming at.
I don't know why everybody is just focusing on this winding knob. Would a lever be that much quicker than a knob? And why the need for quick winding with a folding camera, which is obviously not designed for quick action shooting? As it has already been stated here, the mechanism associated with the lever would make the camera less reliable, much noisier (ratchet), more expensive and bulky. A protruding lever would also make the camera less pocketable, negating the main advantage of the folding camera concept.
As for the bellows, it seems to me that it would be difficult to build a folder without this piece of equipment :D.
Cheers!
Abbazz
David Goldfarb
11-10-2008, 17:02
It looks like a major improvement over the classic folders. It should be more rigid, have better film flatness, a sharper lens corner to corner, and looks like it has better ergonomics and a modern viewfinder. The concept of a folder may be kind of retro, but this isn't a retro folder.
Ratcheting wind levers are great, but they are the bane of medium format cameras in this form factor. They are notoriously problematic on the Mamiya 6 and Pentacon. I guess Mamiya has worked it out on the 7 and Pentax on the 67, but these are much chunkier cameras, and on modular SLRs (Hassy, Bronica, etc.), the mechanism is much larger.
I don't know why everybody is just focusing on this winding knob. Would a lever be that much quicker than a knob? And why the need for quick winding with a folding camera, which is obviously not designed for quick action shooting? As it has already been stated here, the mechanism associated with the lever would make the camera less reliable, much noisier (ratchet), more expensive and bulky. A protruding lever would also make the camera less pocketable, negating the main advantage of the folding camera concept.
Rubbish!
Answers:
1. Quicker and more convenient
2. Why would a lever mechanism be more unreliable than other mechanical part of the camera? You don't hear people complaining that they wish their 35mm cameras had rewind knobs like in the old days because they were so much more reliable! <rolls eyes>
Anyway, presumably it has a modern film-advance mechanism, since it uses 220 film, so 99% of the needed mechanism is already present.
3. My Certo Six has an advance lever but no noisy ratchet
4. Expense - again, I don't think so. The difference in design and manufacturing costs between a knob and lever mechanism would be negligible.
5. Bulky - once again, not necessarily - look at my Cero Six's lever, below. Hardly bulky!
I think the knob is a poor choice, and a case of nostalgic design over function. One reason I chose my Cero Six when looking for a compact 6x6 camera was because it had a convenient lever-operated film-advance mechanism.
The bellows I can understand - makes the camera more compact.
I'm not a fan of nostalgia. A tool should always be designed with function over form (by all means design it well - no need for ugliness!). To my eyes, the GF670 is more of a design exercise than a photographer's tool.
I'm a recent convert to 6x6, having cut my photographic teeth on modern digital cameras. Ideally, I would have liked a modern Mamiya 6 but couldn't afford it, plus it's still a bit bulky. So, I had to buy an old folding camera - choosing one was a nightmare as I had to wade through nostalgia and posts written by people wearing rose-tinted spectacles, resulting in me buying cameras that did not meet my expectations.
For example, I bought an Iskra. This is a total pile of **** as an efficient photographic tool. How can folk can wax lyrical such a crudely built camera!? See http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61709
Then I bought a Certo Six. It had some serious faults but now that I've attacked this "classic" with files, a hacksaw and my drill, it's much more user-friendly to use - if uglier! (I have a friend who keeps whining about how I've destroyed it - it's a tool not a piece of art!) See http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65609
Anyway, my point is, it seems that some manual modern cameras suffer from poor design by harking back to the past too much. The GF645 does too - I would be more interested if it took the best features of traditional medium-format folding cameras and married them to modern technology, and ignored retro styling. Perhaps I think this way because my first camera was Canon 10D digital SLR....
By the way, my main camera is the Leica M8, and this suffers from retro design too - it would be a far better camera if they'd followed the Epson R-D1 (my previous camera) design, with external controls for ISO, etc., and left nostalgia behind (that pointless, ridiculous base plate! <rolls eyes again>).
1. Quicker and more convenient
If you need a quick and convenient MF camera, buy a motorized SLR. A folder is not meant for action shooting.
2. Why would a lever mechanism be more unreliable than other mechanical part of the camera? You don't hear people complaining that they wish their 35mm cameras had rewind knobs like in the old days because they were so much more reliable! <rolls eyes>
Anyway, presumably it has a modern film-advance mechanism, since it uses 220 film, so 99% of the needed mechanism is already present.
As stated by David, the wind lever is a major source of problems with many MF cameras. A reliable winding mechanism requires an oversized gear train, because of the force needed to wind one full frame of 120 film. In order not to put too much strain on the gear train, many MF cameras (like the Certo Six so dear to your heart for instance) require two strokes of the wind lever to advance the film, thus negating the speed advantage of the lever.
As for the new Fuji/Voigtländer using 220 film, that means only that there is an automatic film stop (a roller and a frame counter), not that there is a ratcheted advance mechanism.
3. My Certo Six has an advance lever but no noisy ratchet
I don't have a Certo Six but I doubt there is no ratchet in the film advance mechanism.
4. Expense - again, I don't think so. The difference in design and manufacturing costs between a knob and lever mechanism would be negligible.
Every single part adds to the cost of a camera. It's even more true for the new Fuji/Voigtländer, because it's a one of a kind camera, so no economy of scale can be made by reemploying parts from other models.
5. Bulky - once again, not necessarily - look at my Cero Six's lever, below. Hardly bulky!
I think the knob is a poor choice, and a case of nostalgic design over function. One reason I chose my Cero Six when looking for a compact 6x6 camera was because it had a convenient lever-operated film-advance mechanism.
As stated above, the Certo Six requires two strokes of the lever to advance film. The shutter also has to be manually cocked after advancing the film. I would hardly say this is a convenient and speedy process!
Anyway, my point is, it seems that some manual modern cameras suffer from poor design by harking back to the past too much. The GF645 does too - I would be more interested if it took the best features of traditional medium-format folding cameras and married them to modern technology, and ignored retro styling. Perhaps I think this way because my first camera was Canon 10D digital SLR....
If you are refering to the Fuji GS645, it can hardly be described as a camera with a "design harking back to the past too much," knowing that many reviewers criticized its rather futuristic design and the use of synthetic materials.
Cheers!
Abbazz
cloneroom
12-21-2008, 11:24
O.K for those off you who may or may not know, Fuji earlier this year unveiled a 120 Medium format rangefinder. This was a huge surprise and gained allot of attention . Well it is official and Voigtlander have announced the BESSA 3 on the following website.
www.voigtlaender.com/
BOTH the FUJI & VOIGTLADER will be releasing the same model (produced by Cosina). The first release scheduled by Voigtlader as the "Bessa 3" in BLACK is around April 2009. Followed mid year by Fuji, a silver Fuji 6x7variety(Japan Only). Both Cameras are the same except for color. So yes its something to be excited about.
ONE IMPORTANT feature apparent when looking at the interior of the Voigtlander when loading the film. There is a 6x7 or 6x6 switch on the inner body. So square or landscape, who could ask for more. I am assuming the Fuji will have the same feature.
So that's the news until I have more infoe enjoy the pics....
http://flickr.com/groups/fujirangefinders/discuss/72157611275516585/
We all DO know - look at the posts above. But still now as the long weeks before - we do not know the final specs and the market price. The release date was announced only as "beginning of 2009" what can be March as well as January. So - we just need to be patient. But seeing all those beautiful and relatively cheap RF645 being sold "out there" makes it all worse :o
Looks that the Fuji 670 it's limited to 5000 units.
http://66.249.91.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/corporate/news/articleffnr_0250.html&usg=ALkJrhjbyOnMfxXIHHF4LUk-Ys-WYBKazA
"... Consists of six groups of four lenses ... "
I would not take the GOOGLE automatic translation from Japanese too seriously ;). Maybe there is somebody around who could actually tell us what is written there.
Looks that the Fuji 670 it's limited to 5000 units.
http://66.249.91.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/corporate/news/articleffnr_0250.html&usg=ALkJrhjbyOnMfxXIHHF4LUk-Ys-WYBKazA
Gabriel M.A.
02-03-2009, 07:52
From a Fuji press release for the upcoming Photokina trade show:
"The FUJIFILM GF670 Professional medium-format camera, developed jointly by Fujifilm and Cosina will also be displayed at Photokina 2008 as a reference exhibit (the camera will be marketed under the FUJIFILM brand in Japan only)."
Why oh why would they not sell it outside of Japan ?
Can you blame them? From what I gather, the Japanese market has consumers which both appreciate cameras as a craft and as a tool. You can gather on the Intertubes that outside of Japan there's a lot of quibbling on matters unbecoming of a real shooter who appreciates a real camera.
Tuolumne
02-03-2009, 08:54
You will always be able to buy it from Matsuiyastore on eBay. Besides, there will be a non-Japan version from CV.
/T
Why get a $2000 MF folder?
My past experience when traveling in Asia was that Japanese products were significantly less expensive outside of Japan compared to the same items purchased from a Japanese retailer within Japan.
here it is the confirmation.. this time in english
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=837566
Frank1969
02-03-2009, 10:43
I am off for a 3 week trek in Ladakh and Zanskar in July. I plan to bring my Fuji gW670III but this camera would be ideal. Anyone (dealer, Voigtlander/Cosina, Fuji) want to loan me one for this trip? The images can be used as demo's for this camera and I give the camera back after the trip.
Frank
www.flickr.com/photos/asialover
richdirector
03-02-2009, 07:19
I think I will be selling my Horseman SW612 pro to get one of these - as I nearly always handhold now .........
My God! Who would want it for this price?
$1,200USD....are you kidding? Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob
http://www.japanexposures.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?currency=USD&keywords=GF670
It's here and it's expensive.
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