Just How Much Is Too Expensive ?

[murrayb53]

Every so often I will follow a thread or two concerning the Leica M8. From what I gather there are are number of members who own this camera.

When I found out what this digital was priced at I thought sales would be very slow, so slow that maybe Leica would even decide to lower the selling price. Hell, with this lousy economy I thought the M8's price would just hand off more sales to the competition. Reading some early reviews pointed out there were some issues that made many question its hefty price for what you were getting.

Lately it appears that more and more are "figuring out" the gem and are sounding off like true Leicaphiles (Digital Leicaphiles, that is !). With this, I take it that for the most part, you like it and to hell with the cost, all is well.

Now, the Leica M8.2 at a proposed selling price of $6795 ? Did I read that right ?

C'mon you Leicamaniac's. Are some of you M8 owners thinking of trading-in, or selling off your M8 for an M8.2 ?

Just curious, and really, not critical.

But one begs to ask,
"Just How Much Is Too Expensive"?

Still M8-less,
Steve

[35mmdelux]

Many that can spend this kind of money on a luxury item such as a Leica are largely immune from burps in the economy.

[sfokevin]

Leica has a niche market.... Like Harley Davidson, Bang & Olifsen and many others where price is not the driving motivator...

[BillBingham2]

Have to agree. I expected there to be someone else out there by now. My gut tells me we will see something by late this coming winter, but I do not think till it comes any thing will slow the niche filler.

If I were making money with a camera these days I would have one, it's the cost of doing business. As a non-pro I have to say thank you but no to another red-dot (or black for that matter), it's a little less than 1/2 what I paid for my new Honda Fit last year!

B2 (;->

[Benjamin Marks]

hey, I'm susceptible to Leica . . . but the current prices? Ouch. I would never say never (in fact, looking at my cameras, the problem isn't saying "never" its' saying "no" every once in a while) but even as a fan of Leica gear I'd have to win the lottery before spending $8K on a lens.

In fact, I just finished buying a new (used) Subaru. For the price of a Noctilux you can get a car with 5-7 hard years of salty Vermont road life left in it.

Ben

[SolaresLarrave]

Your question: How much is too expensive?

Relativity rules! Lemme tell you... One single M8.2 can get you two Nikon D700, and even three Nikon D200. If my math doesn't fail me, for that money I probably can accomodate three Nikon AF-S 24-70 zooms, and probably five Nikon AF 85mm f1.4 lenses.

I would be able to swing ONE of those items and recover in, say, four months, but an M8...

Lesson learned, luxury is very relative.

[JohnTF]

A "What if", What if you could find a demo, full warranty, for $4950, and get $3800 for your M8? What if they upgraded your M8 to M8.2 for $1000? Is there a price tipping point, if so, where is it?

Are people buying tri elmars and other high end lenses?

These prices are probably closer to affordable than the M4 plus lenses were when they were new, for non pros.

And, will there be some M8's with a bit of wear in the offing as users in a year or two?

J

[scaryink]

The M8 is an unobtrusive camera capable of shooting a very high quality image. It doesn't look like much - except to the enthusiast. The M8 is the best quality stealth camera in digital I have been able to find. The physical aspects of the body allow me to take shots not obtainable using my eos 1ds dslr.

The kit is a dream for the candid shot maker/taker. Its qualities are unique.

The M8 is capable of being used in the most intimate of moments. It is much better kit to use with people who are not used to being in front of a camera.

That my friends is the bottom line.

[Rayt]

It depends on how the individual perceive value. If I had a huge vinyl record collection like hundreds of albums then spending several thousand dollars on a top quality turntable and stylus in order to play them wouldn't be unreasonable. Similarly for someone who has ten or twelve Leica M lenses the desire to get decent digital files out of them without the hassle of scanning would be equally reasonable. I am in this boat and as far as I can see the M8 completes a journey where I started with a single 50mm Summicron 14 years ago.

[Frank1969]

For what it offers, the M8(.2) compares to a Nikon D300 or a Canon eos 40D or even a Fuji S5pro. Thus a price of about 1.500 US dollars for an M8(.2) should be fair.

Problem with the Leica is that the company has nothing else to offer that makes an easy buck so the M8 stays expensive. And of course, it has the name Leica on it which makes it a few thousand dollars more expensive than it should be. Imagine a brendnew M8 for 1000 euro. So cheap, that must be rubbish. Now it's expensive and compared to what Nikon, Canon or even Pentax have to offer it is still rubbish, only expensive rubbish.

I would love to have a digital rangefinder, but I would not want an M8, maybe when all the bugs are removed and the price is more realistic (about 1.500 dollar).

[photomoof]

My bet would be the M8.2 is not going to fly off the shelves -- but will just pick up the dismal sales lately, of the M8. The new lenses will sell like crazy, especially the 21?

[tmfabian]

My bet would be the M8.2 is not going to fly off the shelves -- but will just pick up the dismal sales lately, of the M8. The new lenses will sell like crazy, especially the 21?

i'd say you nailed it...the m8.2 seems like a stopgap to keep people just interested enough in the company that they hang around for next announcement.

My question is this...with all the extra features of the m8.2...why oh why couldn't they have recessed the buttons and added a 0second self timer menu option...seriously...i get mocked day after day for having a rubber cupboard bumper thingy on my camera and gaffers tape dams built up around the buttons to recess them.

The lenses are swank as he!! and to me the second coolest announcement was the fact that the battery charger will be slimmer.

I just wonder about firmware updates to the m8 to give it some of the features of the m8.2....like the shutter cock thing (surely that's all software) and while I hope for it, I also believe it would really lessen the value of the m8.2 over the m8, but I guess if you factor in the price of getting all the hardware upgrades to your m8 the m8.2 isn't too shabby in terms of price.

I guess my point is...nothing is ever too expensive if there are people out there willing to pay it.

[petepete_seattle]

and to me the second coolest announcement was the fact that the battery charger will be slimmer.

I wonder how much a slimmer charger will cost and will it be compatible with original batteries?

[sfokevin]

I wonder how much a slimmer charger will cost and will it be compatible with original batteries?

Same battery and $165 (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/Battery_Chargers/product/799429144708/Leica_Compact_Battery_Charger_for_M8.htm)...

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/attachments/leica-m8-forum/103243d1221443745-new-charger-m8-2-charger-m-digital.jpg

[yanidel]

I find the comparisons with cars funny. A Leica might represent only half the price of a normal car, yet most people buying Leicas M8 probably have cars worth at least 10 times the price of the M8 ;)

[tom.w.bn]

For what it offers, the M8(.2) compares to a Nikon D300 or a Canon eos 40D or even a Fuji S5pro. Thus a price of about 1.500 US dollars for an M8(.2) should be fair.

Problem with the Leica is that the company has nothing else to offer that makes an easy buck so the M8 stays expensive. And of course, it has the name Leica on it which makes it a few thousand dollars more expensive than it should be. Imagine a brendnew M8 for 1000 euro. So cheap, that must be rubbish. Now it's expensive and compared to what Nikon, Canon or even Pentax have to offer it is still rubbish, only expensive rubbish.

I would love to have a digital rangefinder, but I would not want an M8, maybe when all the bugs are removed and the price is more realistic (about 1.500 dollar).

Are you serious? Do you really believe production costs of a m8 and a 40D are similar and leica earnes just more money with every single m8? As no one here knows the real production costs we only can say that it is expensive, but do we know if it is too expensive?

[jackal2513]

i'm looking to possibly get out

at this rate a FF M9 + Noctilux will be more expensive than a 31MP Hasselblad digital or Sinar kit. The road map looks very bleak for pros.

I was hoping photokina would mark an effort on the part of leica to return to real world products, at real prices serving real working photographers. The complete opposite now seems to be the case.

Esoteric rich mans toy....

[Rayt]

Leica is not a high volume, low margin company. There is no way they can compete with the likes of Canon. This may mean nothing to you and the end consumer can vote with his wallet but this is the way it is. Leica is not raking it in given their losses.

[SR1]

Yesterday, the artist (you decide which kind) Damien Hurst managed to sell a dead tiger shark in a tank of formaldahyde for £8 million give or take.

This on the same day that Lehman Brothers went bust.

Now I might be uncultured and I clearly don't see the art in a dead shark, but it got me thinking.

Damien Hurst only commands such prices because of his name, not the art.

So if he put a Leica M8.2 in a glass box, how much would it be worth?

..oh and would it be art?

SR

[tomasis]

Funny some compare cars to leica.

Remember to have car costs a lot money at least here in Sweden. Gas, insurance, repair, wear parts, charges, fees etc. For that reason I go for the bicycle instead lol. To use Leica costs not much if you do use many years and you can still sell leica for quite good money if we talk about mechanical pieces.

M8.2 tempts me a lot more now. Now this looks like fully decent camera and it would be awesome with 1.4 loupe so I get 1:1 vf digital M3 yeah! The silent shutter got me in hook. I would be surprised if M8 continues manufactured along with M8.2 long time. I kind of expect m8.2 to replace m8 instead. Im not sure how much costs to produce sapphire, new shutter mechanism compared to older body.

I look forward to m8.2 when my Rd1 eventually dies some time later :) It is kind of same thing when you wait for car model when the car model is beginning to end in the cycle and the car cleared out of teething troubles at its first years (for comparison for M8 1.0).

[peter_n]

Never mind the M8, have any of you looked at the price of the new 24mm finder? However the price in current dollars is roughly the same as previous offerings over many years. Leica's niche means they operate in a market of (almost) perfectly inelastic demand. In other words, their customers are willing to pay almost any price to obtain the product. So the OP's question just how much is too expensive cannot be answered because we haven't got there yet. And let's hope for Leica's sake that we never do.

[scaryink]

I would love to have a digital rangefinder, but I would not want an M8, maybe when all the bugs are removed and the price is more realistic (about 1.500 dollar).

So you haven't shot with the camera? How can you form a realistic opinion without having gone for a test drive? You really can't listen to most of the comments here, as the majority don't have the access or cash to purchase or shoot with one.

Most of the words spoken are opinions formed on other peoples opinions about what someone else thought about the kit.

Really, it is a much better kit than I expected. Actually its quite similar to my Porsche 930. Minimalist and deadly at what it does. That is very attractive combination to me.

I'm not a proponent because I spent the money. I recently had a bunch of equipment stolen and am using the insurance proceeds to buy some new products. I am a long time shooter with a Canon Eos 1ds MII and the best glass Canon has to offer. 200 1.8, 400 2.8.

The Leica allows you to capture images very quietly (not talking about the shutter). From this viewpoint it is similar to MP-4 but without the film.

[BillBingham2]

I find the comparisons with cars funny. A Leica might represent only half the price of a normal car, yet most people buying Leicas M8 probably have cars worth at least 10 times the price of the M8 ;)

When I bought my M4-P new and then my M6 new a Leica was around 1/8 of a similar car here in the states. While yes Leica is in a unique niche and at that end of the market there is quite a bit of wiggle room (elasticity) there is a point where the thread will break (e.g. market is saturated, price goes too high).

B2 (;->

[CK Dexter Haven]

For me, there comes a point where it's not a matter of whether or not i CAN afford it. It would just be offensive to actually pay the money. M8. Noctilux. Almost any new Leica M product that i would actually have a use for.

It's like spending time in a hotel. In the mini-bar are Pringles for $6. A can of Coke for $5. A Twix bar for $4.50.... I might come back to the room very late, very tired, very hungry and very thirsty. But, there's no way in hell i'm paying those prices. Of course i can afford them. But, i'm not willing to accept the insult. More a matter of principal than economics.

The Noctilux may be an exceptional lens. The M8 may be capable of exceptional images. But, at some point, you have to examine things in the world and make choices, and i don't see either of those choices as being 'practical.' 99.9% of the professional/commercial/exhibited photography world is using other tools. Is paying more supposed to make me feel like i'm somehow better than them? That i would have some sort of advantage? Apparently, there is no advantage. So, what's it all mean? Pride of ownership? I couldn't be proud of spending $6k on a camera that doesn't do more than a $2000 camera, and producing images that aren't better than those of a 17-year old kid in Poland using an Exacta.

So, the question is "how much is too expensive?" I wouldn't pay more than $3-4000 for a digital rangefinder, and even then it would have to be full-frame. So, i'll wait, like i did before the 5D came out. For a Noctilux, sure, i'd like to try one, but the experience isn't worth more than $2000 for me. I look at it like a Precision Holga. And, the Holga thing never held my interest for more than a few moments.

[Petroleum V. Nasby]

Leica and Porsche thank god daily for the chumps who have swallowed that particular lukewarm glass of ersatz Champagne.

Have fun driving around at 55mph in your Porsche and snapping photos out the window with your M8 while listening to rap music on the Bose speakers and text messaging on your iPhone.

So you used the most expensive superfast extreme teles with your Canon DSLR and now use an M8? I suppose your shooting requirements drastically changed?




So you haven't shot with the camera? How can you form a realistic opinion without having gone for a test drive? You really can't listen to most of the comments here, as the majority don't have the access or cash to purchase or shoot with one.

Most of the words spoken are opinions formed on other peoples opinions about what someone else thought about the kit.

Really, it is a much better kit than I expected. Actually its quite similar to my Porsche 930. Minimalist and deadly at what it does. That is very attractive combination to me.

I'm not a proponent because I spent the money. I recently had a bunch of equipment stolen and am using the insurance proceeds to buy some new products. I am a long time shooter with a Canon Eos 1ds MII and the best glass Canon has to offer. 200 1.8, 400 2.8.

The Leica allows you to capture images very quietly (not talking about the shutter). From this viewpoint it is similar to MP-4 but without the film.

[Rayt]

Have fun driving around at 55mph in your Porsche and snapping photos out the window with your M8 while listening to rap music on the Bose speakers and text messaging on your iPhone.


Bose? Now you are slumming. :rolleyes:

[kevin m]

It's like spending time in a hotel. In the mini-bar are Pringles for $6. A can of Coke for $5. A Twix bar for $4.50.... I might come back to the room very late, very tired, very hungry and very thirsty. But, there's no way in hell i'm paying those prices. Of course i can afford them. But, i'm not willing to accept the insult. More a matter of principal than economics.

Too funny. :D

I was stationed in Europe in the 1980's when Mercedes introduced the 190. I remember seeing it at the airport in Frankfurt, calculating the exchange rate and thinking, 'Man, I'm going to get one of these!' Of course when I got back to the states, I found the price was nearly double. Mercedes-Benz released a press statement saying they jacked the price up "to maintain exclusivity in the North American market."

Maybe that's what Leica's trying to do here. :eek:

[tomasis]

. It would just be offensive to actually pay the money.

i'm not willing to accept the insult.



thanks for good laugh :)

Do you believe that dead objects can insult you? hehe

[Frank1969]

As I wrote before: the specifications of the M8.2 are not that much different from the Nikon D300 or the Eos 40d. So, with regards to these specifications the price difference is ridiculous Of course Nikon and Canon have a much more cost effective production line compared to Leica and don't have to bet everything on just 1 serious camera and a a line of lenses. Leica of course is the only company offering a digital rangefinder thus the company can charge whatever they want for the camera as long as people are willing to pay for it, thus keeping the superb concept of the rangefinder more exclusive that it should be.

[fgianni]

For an amateur camera, too much expensive is anything that costs more than what's left of your disposable income.

For a pro camera, too expensive is anything that won't let you recover the money spent on it within the same tax year.

[Benjamin Marks]

I find the comparisons with cars funny. A Leica might represent only half the price of a normal car, yet most people buying Leicas M8 probably have cars worth at least 10 times the price of the M8 ;)

Yeah. Except me. My cameras' total replacement value is roughly twice that of my cars'. And yeah, I love my M8.

Hey, we all have to believe in something. I believe I will buy another lens. And I'm right there with fgianni -- I think he's nailed it.

Ben

[Peter Klein]

Not everyone who owns an M8 is rich and drives a Porsche. And an M8 is not a DSLR, anymore than a bicycle is a Land Rover.

I have a bunch of M and LTM-mount lenses. I prefer rangefinders to SLRs--I just "see" and focus better that way. So I swallowed hard and bought an M8. It was cheaper than rebuilding my entire system with something I'd like less.

The used market in Leica and CV lenses and accessories is my salvation. Leica may have gotten me as an M8 customer, but not as a repeat customer. Apart from the M8 and one Leica lens I bought new, everything else Leica-related I own is used, a third-party brand, or both.

My reaction to the new Noctilux, 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 lens prices is: Are they crazy? Time will tell whether they will sell enough of them to make it worth it. Leica is going, it seems, for an increasingly smaller market that is willing to pay an increasingly steeper price. They've always done OK doing that before. But at some point, people will say, "there's a limit."

The M8.2 probably is not over that limit. The new lenses may be. The upgrade prices are outrageous. I'm probably not interested, so it's no skin off my nose.

I don't regret buying the M8. For my purposes, it's the best digital camera I have ever tried. I'd have been happier if it cost less, but I am very happy with the camera.

For things the M8 doesn't do well, I can happily use a film M, or last year's midrange DSLR, all bought used. Bottom feeding increases your options. :D

--Peter

[Ben Z]

I bought my M8 new for $4795, just after it was announced the price was going up to $4995. Normally my M.O. with digitals has been to buy previous-generation refurb/demo. I couldn't do that with the M8, so I bit my lip and dove in. I did buy a refurb Epson RD1 but I didn't like it well enough to keep it and deal with anticipated repair issues given Epson's virtual abandonment of it. Now that I have the M8, I have no reason to be in a hurry to buy a new model. I have zero interest in the M8.2, and even if and when Leica comes out with something with improved image quality (sensor, processor, et al) I won't feel compelled to buy one until the frenzy dies down and demos become readily available.

As to lenses, I already have all the lenses I need or want, and then some. At their current new starting prices, I don't ever see myself buying the latest crop of lenses even when they're used. In fact, if I hadn't already had all the lenses I wanted, I probably wouldn't have bought an M8, if it meant paying today's prices for the glass.

[kevin m]

I have no intention of buying any new Leica glass, but I am curious to see what results someone with a good eye can achieve with the 21/1.4. That's new territory there. :)

[whitecat]

My only issue with this pricing is this......An M8.2 bought today and put away for thirty years will be useless then. A M3 bought 50 yrs ago and put away until today is worth a nice return.

[sfokevin]

My only issue with this pricing is this......An M8.2 bought today and put away for thirty years will be useless then. A M3 bought 50 yrs ago and put away until today is worth a nice return.

50 years ago the M3 forum most likely said the M3 was flawed and would be worthless once Leica released the M4...

[jackal2513]

For me, there comes a point where it's not a matter of whether or not i CAN afford it. It would just be offensive to actually pay the money. M8. Noctilux. Almost any new Leica M product that i would actually have a use for.


here here

normal consumers need to feel that they are agreeing upon a two way bargain... there needs to be a sense of give and take

but having collosal prices just arrogantly dictated to you just gets my back up

[Gary Sandhu]

I have a car with spark plugs that cost over $125 each and there are 12 cylinders.... I saw a billfold for over $3000 at the Hermes store .... Leicas are cheap. I think it's the 80/20 rule Leica style: to get that last bit of 20%, you have to spend 80 times more :-)

[itf]

I have a car with spark plugs that cost over $125 each and there are 12 cylinders.... I saw a billfold for over $3000 at the Hermes store .... Leicas are cheap. I think it's the 80/20 rule Leica style: to get that last bit of 20%, you have to spend 80 times more :-)

I didn't know Leica made spark plugs! :rolleyes:;):p

[akiralx]

Not everyone who owns an M8 is rich and drives a Porsche. And an M8 is not a DSLR, anymore than a bicycle is a Land Rover.

I have a bunch of M and LTM-mount lenses. I prefer rangefinders to SLRs--I just "see" and focus better that way. So I swallowed hard and bought an M8. It was cheaper than rebuilding my entire system with something I'd like less.

The used market in Leica and CV lenses and accessories is my salvation. Leica may have gotten me as an M8 customer, but not as a repeat customer. Apart from the M8 and one Leica lens I bought new, everything else Leica-related I own is used, a third-party brand, or both.

My reaction to the new Noctilux, 21/1.4 and 24/1.4 lens prices is: Are they crazy? Time will tell whether they will sell enough of them to make it worth it. Leica is going, it seems, for an increasingly smaller market that is willing to pay an increasingly steeper price. They've always done OK doing that before. But at some point, people will say, "there's a limit."

The M8.2 probably is not over that limit. The new lenses may be. The upgrade prices are outrageous. I'm probably not interested, so it's no skin off my nose.

I don't regret buying the M8. For my purposes, it's the best digital camera I have ever tried. I'd have been happier if it cost less, but I am very happy with the camera.

--Peter

My experience is almost identical to yours - used Leica and CZ/CV lenses make up most of my system, and I've no real interest in these new releases, apart from the Noctilux maybe driving down used 50mm Summilux prices.

And I travel to work by public transport, not by car - with the M8 everyday.

[Benjamin Marks]

Leica is just following the business model they have always followed - nice gear at a premium. For me, there is no sense in getting worked up over it. I completely agree with the characterization of the M3 as being on the other side of some price-to-value-over-time divide. I have an M2, M3, M5, M6 and think that there is probably at least one among them that will survive me. My M8? I love using it, but the way I am using it, I don't think the shutter will last 10 years at this rate. My main interest vis Leica is that they be around to fix/replace the shutter when it goes. If their current zany high cost, low-volume model gets them there, then more power to them.

Ben Marks

below: Noctilux at F:1 (worth every penny then . . . but now?)
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/500/Eli_05-05-07.jpg