first lens for first Leica (noob to Leicas)

[pekuekfir]

just received my first Leica from Adorama. A IIIc that Adorama listed as "E" or "E-". It looks very nice and seems fine cosmetically. It's a body only, so I need a lens.

Since I don't know anything about Leicas or how to use them (I intend to learn all about them), I was thinking about buying an inexpensive Jupiter 8 50mm for learning purposes.

Does this seem ok, or should I get a more expensive Elmar or whatever to start with? I've read that jupiter 8s are OK lenses. Do they work perfectly with Leica screw mounts?

thanks for any info.

[colyn]

The J-8 is a fine lens. I would later add a Summitar or Canon 50 or a CV 35mm..

[Paul C. Perkins, MD]

Summitar 50mm F:2.0 was current to the IIIc. Very good optic.

[brachal]

A good Jupiter-8 is a very good lens. You could also look into the Soviet collapsible 50's, I-10 (aka 50mm Fed), I-22, or I-50. These will give you a good sharp lens that is extremely compact, and very similar to the original f/3.5 Elmar. fedka.com is a good source for FSU gear. I use a f/2.8 Elmar on my IIIf most of the time, and it's a great performer.

[Solinar]

A Jupiter 8 - if you get a good one - has a nice classic signature. 40.5 mm filters and hoods are plentiful too.

The collapsible Industar 22, Industar 50 and FED 50 have a more solid brass build and better contrast than the J8. Plus, they're much less expensive than the 50/3.5 Elmar and equally as good.

The Canon 50/1.8 is compact - and - a very good performer for about 3 times what a J8 will run. The downside with the Canon is that 40mm filters and hood are getting kind of difficult to come by.

I'd go with the Canon or one of the collapsible Industars.

[mh2000]

I think the I-22 is a good start since it is so decent and collapses (gives nice "old time look" as it is a Tessar), the J-8 is just ok (great for the price I guess, looks very old timer... can work for somethings), but if you want really good photos I'd get something better... I would be happier something better. Summicron collapsible 50 would be my choice if you have the cash (~$450 for a nice one). I am personally very happy with my sweet little CV Color-Skopar 50/2.5... I'd look into it.

[pekuekfir]

the Canon 1.8 sounds good. I generally don't use flash, so I like fast lenses. I'll try fedka for a Jup-8 or Industar. Do the russian lenses mate EXACTLY with leicas? I'll look for a summitar later.
For indoor shots, I'd rather use a 35mm lens. But from what I've read, I would need a different viewfinder for a 35mm.

I've got the 1956 edition of the Leica Manual coming in the mail, so hopefully I can learn all about Leica photography after I get it...!

[colyn]

the J-8 is just ok (great for the price I guess, looks very old timer... can work for somethings), but if you want really good photos I'd get something better...

This photo was taken with the J-8. It's a lot better lens than you give credit for..true there are better lens but the J-8 can easily hold its own..


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3099/2850142214_148cb718fe_o.jpg

[mh2000]

Yes Colyn, that's a fine example, similar to mine, just not usually very compelling... and if you go through all the effort to use a beautiful old Barnack camera I kind of want photos that give me some wow factor... either so interesting and vintage looking or really top-rate... the J-8 seems kind of middle of the road to me... not that I'm going to dump it or anything... sometimes it's nice for some things.

[luketrash]

Buying soviet lenses brings up a whole new meaning to 'Russian Roulette' is the only issue. I have good examples of the J8, the I10, the J9, and J12. But tons of bad examples are out there. When you get a good example, they're just dandy ;)

When you get bad example after bad example, it gets depressing. I like the Jupiter 8 ergonomics way better than the Industar-10. Regardless of the I10 looking oldskool, it is sort of cludgey to use compared to the Jupiter-8.

If the two lenses were the same price, I'd always pick the J8.

[colyn]

Yes Colyn, that's a fine example, similar to mine, just not usually very compelling... and if you go through all the effort to use a beautiful old Barnack camera I kind of want photos that give me some wow factor... either so interesting and vintage looking or really top-rate... the J-8 seems kind of middle of the road to me... not that I'm going to dump it or anything... sometimes it's nice for some things.

I try not to restrict myself to just one look. That's why I use different lens depending on what "look" I'm after at the moment..

I also plan to buy a Russian fake Elmar lens to see what it will give..

[filmfan]

Summitar 50/2

You can grab one for around $130 (I did)

[pekuekfir]

I was just asking about using a russian lens for the purpose of learning to load and shoot with an old leica. In other words, not for the particular qualities or lack of qualities of the russian lenses. I just want to learn how to use the camera and take pictures with it, with an inexpensive lens at first. However, if russian lenses are considered total crap, then I would look to start off with a german lens.

I was wondering if the russian lenses match up exactly with leica SM cameras.

filmfan, $130 is certainly doable for me for a summitar. I've been watching ebay, but many lenses go for more than that.

[BillBingham2]

Buying soviet lenses brings up a whole new meaning to 'Russian Roulette' is the only issue.

Having plunked down a lot of green backs for FSU gear, getting it fixed, splitting the cost of trying to get it fixed again, you either need to love tinkering with stuff or you will hate them. Every once in a while you get a diamond, dead on sharp, clean, smooth through out the range, but IMHO it's easier to find a diamond down south of Hope AR in that little mine they have open to the public.

Spend a bit more money and get a old Nikon, Canon or Leica lens. You can find great Nikkor 50mm glass out there at reasonable prices. Not sure about Canon as I have never looked. CV glass is great and while costing a bit more, it is great stuff.

B2 (;->

[payasam]

The Industar 61 L/D is inexpensive and optically very good. A fine starter lens.

[wolves3012]

I was just asking about using a russian lens for the purpose of learning to load and shoot with an old leica. In other words, not for the particular qualities or lack of qualities of the russian lenses. I just want to learn how to use the camera and take pictures with it, with an inexpensive lens at first. However, if russian lenses are considered total crap, then I would look to start off with a german lens.

I was wondering if the russian lenses match up exactly with leica SM cameras.


The russian lenses can be a bit hit-and-miss for quality control, that's true. However, the older ones tend to be good. For a fraction of the cost of an Elmar you can use and Industar 22. Contrary to popular belief, it's not an Elmar copy. It's coated and some say it outperforms the Elmar.

And yes, the russian lenses do "match up" to LTM properly, subject to the caveat above. I've used quite a few of them on my IIIC and only one didn't work well (Kim Coxon sorted that out though!).

[Graybeard]

A Jupiter 8 will be a fine choice for your new Leica. Try for one of the more moden black bodied ones.

The odds of getting a good Russian lens sem to depend a great deal on the particular lens model. The Jupiter 8 and the Jupiter 12 (35mm/f2.8) have a good reputation for quality and your chances of getting a decent one are good. Most people seem pleased with the Russian Elmar clones as well.

The Jupiter 3 (especially) and the Jupiter 9 have poor reputations and the odds are high that you will get one that will not focus properly.

As always try to buy the lens with return privledges or find a lens that is so inexpensive that you can tolerate the loss if the lens is not useable. This applies to all second hand purchases, I've had to return two LTM Canon lenses in the past.

[colyn]

However, if russian lenses are considered total crap, then I would look to start off with a german lens.

I think part of the reason for the bad rap these lens are getting is in part they bought from less than reputable eBay sellers.. I have yet to find a bad sample. Some will need cleaning of the gummed up grease but that is a fairly easy task.

I was wondering if the russian lenses match up exactly with leica SM cameras.

Again that depends on who you buy from. Check out Fedka..

[Roger Hicks]

I think part of the reason for the bad rap these lens are getting is in part they bought from less than reputable eBay sellers.. I have yet to find a bad sample.
Dear Colyn,

You've been lucky.

My worst ever was one where you could hear and see one of the lens groups flopping back and forth. That was in the days before people paid good money to have cheap lenses overhauled, so it probably came from the factory like that.

Astonishingly, though, even this one produced surprisingly usable images. 'Romantic' is perhapa a good word.

So yes, my advice to the OP is to get one. The only caveat I'd enter is that until you've had a fair sample of these lenses, you'll never really know whether your first is/was good, bad or average. Bur even the bad ones are quite fun. Just don't judge all RF lenses by your first Jupiter!

Cheers,

R.

[pekuekfir]

thanks for all the helpful info! This place is great.

I just ordered an I-50 collapsible elmar-type from Fedka for $42.50. It was listed as "EXC-" condition. The only I-22 he had was only in "GOOD" condition.

I plan to use this lens for learning to use the IIIc, since I've never owned a camera as old as the IIIc.

I suppose I will also need a handheld exposure meter... any suggestions for one?

[luketrash]

My light meter is a Gossen Digisix which I adore. It's been accurate for me and is very easy to use. I use it for all of my cameras including my Hasselblad, which is why I originally bought it. It depends on how deep you want to go into the rabbit hole. I have working light meters from the 1950s that I paid 3 dollars for. But having a decent one like my Digisix means no headaches and since I own several other cameras it's worth the 100 dollars I paid for it used.

Sort of like LTM lenses. You an buy the Industar now, or jump in both feet first into something cutting sharp like a Nokton 50mm or a Leica Summicron. Either way, it's all enjoyable for me. I have lots of old stuff and lots of new stuff. I like using it all.

[wolves3012]

thanks for all the helpful info! This place is great.

I just ordered an I-50 collapsible elmar-type from Fedka for $42.50. It was listed as "EXC-" condition. The only I-22 he had was only in "GOOD" condition.

I plan to use this lens for learning to use the IIIc, since I've never owned a camera as old as the IIIc.

I suppose I will also need a handheld exposure meter... any suggestions for one?
Good luck, I doubt you will be disappointed with the I-50. The only downside to the I-22/I-50 is they aren't a fast lens, although they are equal to an Elmar.

As for lightmeters, the Gossens always come up favourites. Personally I've been using a Weston Master IV and not been disappointed. I've also just got a Sverdlovsk 4 which is pretty good, if a little fiddly and not so easy to obtain! Quite a few people also seem to use a cheap digi-cam as a meter.

Your main choice though is really between a selenium meter, which is not battery powered, or a more modern CdS which will require batteries. The downsides to selenium meters (such as the Westons) is that many are old and no longer work properly, plus they aren't much use in very poor light. CdS, on the other hand, is likely to be more sensitive. Beware that some older CdS meters use batteries that are obsolete, which can be a real pain.

[pekuekfir]

bought a Gossen Super Pilot CdS light meter, with case and instruction manual. Once I get my I-50 lens, and the gossen meter, and load up my IIIc, it'll be like I got in a time machine and went back to the 1950s...

[mh2000]

I have at least 25 50mm lenses so I certainly don't advocate limiting yourself or depending on one look, but for a first/only lens I think you will be much more satisfied with a less limiting lens... something capable of results that don't beg the question, "which lens did you take these with" (because they obviously weren't shot with anything modern).

If you really want to avoid anything from Canon, CV, Leica etc., I would really suggest getting the Industar-61 L/D first... then move on to the more "distinctive" vintage lenses. Stopped down a bit the I-61 L/D is very respectible even when compared to modern lenses costing much more.

For meters I have given in to the little Sekonic Twinmate-II... very pleasing retro look (looks better next to a Leica than the Gossen digi meters to my eye)... if you want to stick with something FSU to go with your lens, I have a Leningrad-8 meter which is very accurate and sensitive enough for ISO 400-800 easily... haven't been so lucky with the Leningrad I or II's, but they are prettier.

Honestly, you don't need a meter though... outdoors, Sunny-16 works great and if you get to recognize a few inside EV's you will do very well... I find this more enjoyable than fooling with meters... and I end up going with my guesses over the meter most of the time anyway...

Get the I-22 and not a I/FED-50 because all the I-22's are clocked for a Leica camera, but many (all?) I/FED-50's are clocked wrong and are a pain to focus on your IIIc (might even hit your RF ring... I forget, but you don't want one). the best thing about the I-22 is that the camera will really fit in your pocket with it attached. With the faster collapsibles they are still kind of big.

Make sure you get a lens cap for anything you have! If you are new to RF's, unlike SLR's, there is nothing to protect your curtains from light, so even just sitting on a shelf with light coming in the lens you will burn holes in your curtains... if you can't find a lens with the cap, bakelite caps for I-22/Elmar etc. can be had for a few dollars from Russia.

I try not to restrict myself to just one look. That's why I use different lens depending on what "look" I'm after at the moment..

I also plan to buy a Russian fake Elmar lens to see what it will give..

[Ron (Netherlands)]

If you bought the IIIc to get that specific vintage Leica look in your pictures, then go directly for the summitar or summar. I have several J-8's but I prefer the signature of old leica glass. From the FSU lenses the Industar 22 compares most in terms of signature.

To get an idea: first pic with Industar 22, second with 1940 Summitar (I have a bad scanner thats why these pics look so grainy and not that sharp, but I like the vintage look)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kpmg0072/Cameras/SCAN0012.JPG

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kpmg0072/Cameras/SCAN0032.JPG

[mh2000]

oops, see you already got the I-50... and I think I was wrong... the FED-50=Industar-10, the collapsible Industar-50 is almost identical to the I-22 I think... the rigid I-50 is an ugly beast, but takes a darn good photo for a $5 lens.

My I-22 is good stopped down... have fun!

[pekuekfir]

thanks, mh. You had me worried with your fist post where you said not to get the I-50, after I already ordered one...!

I was watching a 5cm collapsible summitar on ebay the last few days, but I forgot to bid on it after I got home from work yesterday. It went for $127.50.

I ordered 6 rolls of Kodak 100 TMax B&W film. Never used it before, hope it's good stuff. You can't buy 100asa B&W film locally. The local stores only carry 400.

[mh2000]

I think TMX is quite a beautiful film... but I prefer the flexibility of 400 speed films.

[Graybeard]

thanks for all the helpful info! This place is great.

I just ordered an I-50 collapsible elmar-type from Fedka for $42.50. It was listed as "EXC-" condition. The only I-22 he had was only in "GOOD" condition.

I plan to use this lens for learning to use the IIIc, since I've never owned a camera as old as the IIIc.

I suppose I will also need a handheld exposure meter... any suggestions for one?

Buy a dead Weston Master IV or Weston Master V on eBay. Don't spend more than $10 - there are plenty of pretty but inoperative ones available for that price.

Send the meter to Quality Light Metric in Hollywood (CA, where else) for an overhaul and calibratiom. This will be about $80. There will be about a one week turnaround and you will have, essentially, a new Weston meter. They don't get any better.

[pekuekfir]

thanks, I'll keep an eye out for a weston V. QLM sounds like a good company, but I'm kind of disappointed that they don't appear to have a website.

[pekuekfir]

this is slightly off track...

last night I was messing with my new IIIc that I got in the mail about a week ago. When I received it, I just put it safely away after looking at it quickly (no lens yet, so couldn't try it out).

Anyway, last night I pushed the shutter button and the shutter fired. So the shutter may have been cocked for who knows how long... is that a problem? Also, this may be a dumb question, but when you are taking pictures with a Leica III, when you are done for a while, you do NOT advance the film (and thus cock the shutter) do you? ie: do you store the camera with the film unadvanced and the shutter uncocked?

[pekuekfir]

someone point me to a lens hood I can use with the Industar 50 that I've got coming in the mail. I checked with fedka.com, but yuri said that there were no Industar lens hoods, at least no "original" ones.

[pekuekfir]

I also noticed that my first Leica (IIIc) has a flash plug-in on the back of the top plate. Was that a modification from the original or not?

I bought this Leica for collectability purposes (also to use of course), and I wanted a camera AS ORIGINAL. It was listed on Adorama's website as in "E" condition.
I read that modified Leicas are worth around half of an unmodified one.

[wolves3012]

this is slightly off track...

last night I was messing with my new IIIc that I got in the mail about a week ago. When I received it, I just put it safely away after looking at it quickly (no lens yet, so couldn't try it out).

Anyway, last night I pushed the shutter button and the shutter fired. So the shutter may have been cocked for who knows how long... is that a problem? Also, this may be a dumb question, but when you are taking pictures with a Leica III, when you are done for a while, you do NOT advance the film (and thus cock the shutter) do you? ie: do you store the camera with the film unadvanced and the shutter uncocked?
It's unlikely to cause a problem unless it's left for years, in which case there would likely be other problems too. Out of habit I always cock the shutter just before I take a shot, that avoids putting it away cocked and avoids accidental exposures too! Personal preference - others prefer to leave it cocked for opportunistic shots.

[wolves3012]

someone point me to a lens hood I can use with the Industar 50 that I've got coming in the mail. I checked with fedka.com, but yuri said that there were no Industar lens hoods, at least no "original" ones.
There was a push-fit hood available but they are hard to come by. It's the same sort that fits the Elmar. You may have to hunt around for one. The I-50 is coated so it's not desperately prone to flare - a little thought and you may not even need a hood. If you struggle to find one you could also make one from the top section of a plastic bottle (a black one, or paint it!) or something similar.

[wolves3012]

I also noticed that my first Leica (IIIc) has a flash plug-in on the back of the top plate. Was that a modification from the original or not?

I bought this Leica for collectability purposes (also to use of course), and I wanted a camera AS ORIGINAL. It was listed on Adorama's website as in "E" condition.
I read that modified Leicas are worth around half of an unmodified one.
It's modified, the IIIC didn't come with flash sync. Others may be able to tell you if the factory did any conversions or whether it was always the repairman.

[pekuekfir]

The flash plug is part of the top plate, I mean the top plate was originally made with a flash plug. So maybe someone substituted a top plate from a later III...?

Dang, I wanted an original unmodified Leica, so I guess I got screwed.

When you ask adorama or keh questions about their used equipment, all you get in reply is ... "uh, we don't know anything about it...".
That's the last time I'll ever order an old Leica from either place. Maybe igorcamera.com or kevinscamera.com are better.

I guess I'm ready to load some film, or try to, ha ha, and take some pics. Got my I-50 in the mail yesterday!

edit: the I-50 lens seems fine, and the service from Yuri (fedka) was fantastic. I look forward to giving him more business.

[wolves3012]

The flash plug is part of the top plate, I mean the top plate was originally made with a flash plug. So maybe someone substituted a top plate from a later III...?


I'm no expert on Leicas so maybe someone with more knowledge will tell me I was wrong. However, I'm fairly confident a IIIC never came with flash-sync as original. Maybe someone did substitute the cover, maybe the factory did a conversion...hmm.

[Svitantti]

I've had a VC Ultron 35/1.7 as the only lense for a M4 and been really happy with it. Nice angle for all-around shooting and fine lense. Not too expensive either. J-8 or J-3 are nice too, though their mechanics are probably not that great - optics are good.

[Graybeard]

The flash plug is part of the top plate, I mean the top plate was originally made with a flash plug. So maybe someone substituted a top plate from a later III...?

Dang, I wanted an original unmodified Leica, so I guess I got screwed.

When you ask adorama or keh questions about their used equipment, all you get in reply is ... "uh, we don't know anything about it...".
That's the last time I'll ever order an old Leica from either place. Maybe igorcamera.com or kevinscamera.com are better.

I guess I'm ready to load some film, or try to, ha ha, and take some pics. Got my I-50 in the mail yesterday!

edit: the I-50 lens seems fine, and the service from Yuri (fedka) was fantastic. I look forward to giving him more business.


If Leitz installed flash synchronization they almost certainly would have gone the whole route and done a IIIc to IIIf conversion. If you have only a PC terminal on the camera, it was done by a non-Leitz service technician. These are not all that uncommon.

There isn't any need to obsess over the flash terminal. If you have a useable camera then enjoy your new jewel. Put some ASA400 BW film in the camera and shoot a couple of hundred rolls. See if the flash terminal is a concern then.

You might buy/borrow/otherwise acquire a copy of of Alessandro Pasi's book "Leica, Witness to a Century". It will put you in the right frame of mind.

I'm off to Italy nmyself ext week and I'll have a IIIf with me always; I'll probably bring an f2/50mm since evening offers many fine shooting opportunities. f2 and be there.

[colyn]

When you ask adorama or keh questions about their used equipment, all you get in reply is ... "uh, we don't know anything about it...".
That's the last time I'll ever order an old Leica from either place. Maybe igorcamera.com or kevinscamera.com are better.

I don't know about Adorama but KEH has always been very helpful with me and has answered all of my questions to my satisfaction..

igor is ok but Kevin is way overpriced...

[pekuekfir]

I'm in the right frame of mind. ok, so maybe I overreacted a little. I've been collecting various things for over 30 years, and I have always looked for "as original" items to buy.

I think I will love the camera. The controls "feel" nice when you move them or turn them... like quality (well maybe not the I-50 though).

I was quoted $150 for a CLA for the IIIc by the camera repair shop in my city. they have been in business since 1948. I gather this is a fair price? They said that it included no lens work.

KEH seems like a good place. However, in my case, I asked a few specific questions about a particular Leica IIIc in their vintage listings. Their reply was something along the lines of "it's used and will show some wear". Ok, thanks...
I ended up buying from adorama, and I did not bother to ask anything first, so I can't say for sure how they would have replied.

I am printing out an owners manual for the IIIc from cameramanuals.org.

As to the original question "which lens to get", although I just bought an I-50, I intend to also buy a J-8. f2 is much more usable than the f3.5 of the I-50.

thanks again for all the info!