Kiev 4 with a 135mm lens

[Galfredus]

Hello.

I've just bought my first rangefinder - a Kiev 4. I bought it on eBay as in "very good condition" from a UK seller. When it arrived it looked ok, but as soon as I picked it up I could feel the lens (Jupiter 8) was loose. On removing it I found that part of the metal casing of the lens that goes into the camera had been completely deformed (presumably by being dropped), which meant I was a bit annoyed with the seller! The body seems very good however.

To cut a long story short, living in London I had a wander around the camera shops in Bloomsbury and came up with another Jupiter 8 in good condition, and have just put my first roll of film through it. All I can say is - no need for rose-tinted spectacles when you're viewing the world through that camera!

Now for the ignorant questions! The same shop has a 135mm lens for sale, which would be fun to try out. However, I'm told that I'll need a different viewfinder to use that lens. Is that to focus the lens, or just to frame the shot? Will a 135mm Jupiter focus on the rangerfinder? Is it possible to use it just focussing through the rangefinder and taking acount of the fact that the 135 lens will only cover part of the image in the rangefinder?

Sorry for being a bit dim, but I'm on a very steep learning curve at the moment!

Galfredus

[Spider67]

Welcome to the forum galfredus!
Yes you´ll need an additional Viewfinder. It´s just needed for framing. The turret viewinder is a bit cumbersome but it´s also very good for framing as it does not simply reduce a 50mm frame but gives you the proper enlargement for the chosen focal lens. If you take the Turret Viewfinder (also called revolver VF or KMZ VF) you do not need the dedicated Kiev VF (focal lens VF on the right hand side when mounted).
Best regards from Vienna
Des

[KoNickon]

The 135 (a Jupiter 11, I believe) is coupled to the rangefinder of the Kiev so you can focus it fine. But you will need a separate viewfinder to frame the shot. Failing that, just assume the area covered by the lens is slightly larger than the rangefinder patch.

The 135, and all Kiev lenses other than the 50mm lenses, couples to the outside lens mount. Lock the camera's lens mount on infinity, and set the lens on infinity as well, before mounting the lens on the camera.

If you end up liking the camera and the 135 (and it's a good lens, a copy of a Zeiss design like almost all the lenses for the Kievs), you will want to get the Soviet-era turret finder, which has the capability of handling focal lengths of 28, 35, 50, 90 and 135mm. These are pretty reasonably priced and have excellent optics, I've found.

[KoNickon]

I misspoke slightly (reminded by another current thread): The Kiev lenses, like the Contax and Nikon lenses, come in 85mm rather than 90mm.

[Galfredus]

Thanks chaps! Very swift and helpful response. The 135 is in a shop window for £79. Is that an OK price?

Another thing.... Any advice on filters? I've bought a straightforward 40.5mm polarizing filter, as much for lens protection as anything. I'm mainly going to use it for tourist shots of architecture, streetscenes, etc (and also a bit of motor-racing, hence my interest in the 135!) so it will be almost exclusively exterior daylight work.

I'll definitely look out for a turret viewfinder - sounds like the only one I'll ever need!

G

[shadowfox]

That sounds a bit steep (price) for a 135mm RF lens. But as long as the lens is in immaculate condition, I guess it's worth it.

I have a different take on long lenses (135mm and longer), to me, they are more suited for SLR's. :)

[Spider67]

79 GBP? Pretty Steep considering that I bought mine from a british ebayer for much less! So keep looking genareally the 135 (J11) should be definitely cheaper than the J 9 (85mm)or J 12 (35mm)

[Galfredus]

That's very interesting Spider. The same shop had a 35mm Jupiter for less than the 135! Perhaps I should look at buying from one of the Russian specialists selling on eBay?

[Kin Lau]

79gbp for a J11 is way too much.

As Nick mentioned above, the RF patch is roughly the size of the 135 FOV and works fairly well as a rough estimate. I have the turret finder as well.

[wolves3012]

A good J-11 135mm in Kiev mount can be had off Ebay for £20 or so if you keep your eyes open. £79 is way OTT. Even the J-12 35mm can be had for under £30. Reckon on £20-25 for the turret-finder.

[KoNickon]

As for filters, 40.5mm is a hard size to find in a shop, but there are plenty on eBay if you want to go that route. Get a multicoated one if you can. But perhaps more importantly, find a deep lens shade to protect the front element from stray light. Those might actually be a little harder to find than the filters.

[Galfredus]

Thanks everyone!

I've had my first film developed and all seems well.
Now, a question about focussing and depth of field: I think I know the theory here - the further I clamp down the aperture, the more in front and behind the range stated on the focussing ring will be in focus, but this will be traded off against a slower shutter speed.

So, if I'm taking a close-ish shot and want to focus on a specific range, with the background and foreground fairly soft, I'm better to use a wide aperture? I tried to do this a few times, but of course the rangefinder will give the impression of the fore/background being out of focus when it is actually well within the depth of field.

I'm going to take the camera to the country for the weekend and run another colour film through it, just to get the hang of things. However, in a few weeks I'm off to France to go and see, among other things, some vintage motor racing. That's why I want the 135mm lens, so I can get up nice and close without actually having to get up nice and close!

What film would you recommend for that sort of thing. I fancy going black and white and have been looking at the Ilford website. They seem to do 125 and 400 films without much in between. I guess the camera was designed more with 125 in mind? Would 125 be fast enough for normal daylight use with moving objects, or would I be better loading a 400? Your advice/experiences would be valued greatly - I promise to post some of the results if you are interested.

Galfredus

[pinafore2]

Hi Galfredus

Some links you must know, being a Kiev user.

First considering your 135 mm and the motorsport, maybe this is a good solution if you are a little DYI
http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-26.html

Next this is an interesting site about the Kievs.
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index.html

Per

[wolves3012]

For motorsport you're likely to want the fastest shutter speed possible, I'd go for 400asa minimum. Remember that f/4 isn't a fast lens. You may also find a 135mm is a bit short but you'll have to live with that! A monopod or tripod with pan facility could be handy too...

[40oz]

IMHO, a lens you can handle in a shop is inherently worth more than one on ebay. You can handle it, test the focus and mounting, and generally see if it is in good working shape. In all likelihood, the shop will honor the sale with store credit at the least if the lens turns out to have a problem.

For motorsports on a sunny day, you probably want a slower film than 400. As has been said, f/4 isn't all that fast, but there is plenty of shutter and aperture on a sunny day to shoot 125 ISO. Even with moving subjects, as to use f/4 in the sun with 125 ISO, you'd need a faster shutter than 1/1000 on the Kiev. And a sharp, blur-free shot of a racecar is kind of missing the point, IMHO :)

If it is overcast or cloudy, 400 ISO could be nice to have. I'd just bring a roll of each so you can pick your film when you get there.

I'd not use a filter, as under sunny skies, you will have more issues with flare off every shiny object than poking your lens onto a fencepost. In lesser light, it's less of an issue, but one can just be a little careful with the lens the same way you'd be careful with any valuable object.

[ruben]

Hi Galfredus,

Welcome to RFF !.

I think the folks here saying that BP 79 is a "steep" price, were demostrating an envialble dosis of self restrain. To start with, in case the shop didn't compensate you for the former faulty sale, I would give them my best wishes and forget them.

As for the Soviet Universal Turret Finder, it is an uncredible piece of design and optics. It will be your best companion for all lenses, with parallax compensation, and already good for you for composing with the standard lens at night, and give you the exact image sixe of each focal lenght, including the one for the 50mm lens.

Just one tip. Most of the models for sale are oriented towards the re-wing knob, thus interfering with the rewind action. So be patient and chase a model oriented towards the shutter release side. And make the necessary arrangements to secure it will not fall from the camera under tilt.

Cheers,
Ruben

[wolves3012]

Just one tip. Most of the models for sale are oriented towards the re-wing knob, thus interfering with the rewind action. So be patient and chase a model oriented towards the shutter release side.

Cheers,
Ruben
Although I agree with that, the more common turret-finder is also usable on other cameras, which the one you mention is a severe nuisance on. It is also much harder to find. Since changing a film involves removing the back etc and turning the camera upside down, having to take the finder off is a small inconvenience against the possibility of use on other cameras.

[Galfredus]

Hi Galfredus,

To start with, in case the shop didn't compensate you for the former faulty sale, I would give them my best wishes and forget them.



Thanks for further help everyone! I bought the camera blind through eBay (UK seller). I emailed him and he was very apologetic. Having found another Jupiter 8 in a shop that was in much better nick I decided to stick with it rather than have the hassle of sending it back to him. The £79 Jupiter 11 is in yet another shop!

I've now found a second hand screw-in lens hood, so if I do use a filter on a sunny day it'll hopefully reduce the chance of glare.

If now put a second film through, this time an Ilford 400 ISO b/w that can be developed through the normal colour process. I'm fairly pleased with the results - any dodgyness is my handling, not the camera or the film! I've now put in a 125 ISO to see how that goes. Hopefully about to get my hands on both a turret finder and a Jupiter 11.

Will get the scanner out and post some results. When do you think they'll get round to doing digital backs for Kiev 4s?!

Galfredus

[Galfredus]

Hello again. I now have a 135mm Jupiter lens, just as people said, bought on eBay for £20. It's a 1970s one, and I understand the quality became a bit hit and miss with these later lenses. I've had a go with it today, and two things bother me, but may well just be par for the course.

Firstly, the focussing is very stiff, to the extent that it is not really possibly to use the focussing wheel without helping it along by turning the lens with the left hand at the same time. The ring moves smoothly, but takes more effort than the gearing on the focussing wheel can cope with.

Secondly, the focussing ring has slight play in it in relation to the main body of the lens. I don't think this is wear, as the outer casing of the lens gives the impression of having had very little use. Maybe it's just been out of use for a long time and needs to be used to loosen up a bit?

I also bought a turret viewfinder and have been having fun focussing shots through the rangefinder and quickly swapping viewfinders to frame the shot. However, at some ranges (anything closer than about 20 feet) the view finder appears to be out of focus. Is this normal?

Thanks again!

Galfredus

[brachal]

Hello again. I now have a 135mm Jupiter lens, just as people said, bought on eBay for £20. It's a 1970s one, and I understand the quality became a bit hit and miss with these later lenses. I've had a go with it today, and two things bother me, but may well just be par for the course.

Firstly, the focussing is very stiff, to the extent that it is not really possibly to use the focussing wheel without helping it along by turning the lens with the left hand at the same time. The ring moves smoothly, but takes more effort than the gearing on the focussing wheel can cope with.

Secondly, the focussing ring has slight play in it in relation to the main body of the lens. I don't think this is wear, as the outer casing of the lens gives the impression of having had very little use. Maybe it's just been out of use for a long time and needs to be used to loosen up a bit?

I also bought a turret viewfinder and have been having fun focussing shots through the rangefinder and quickly swapping viewfinders to frame the shot. However, at some ranges (anything closer than about 20 feet) the view finder appears to be out of focus. Is this normal?

Thanks again!

Galfredus

Only use the focusing wheel with the 50mm lenses. All others should only be focused with the lens' focusing ring

[Galfredus]

Ah-ha! That makes sense. The wheel should still go round, right?

G

[brachal]

Yes. They are linked, but the wheel mechanism isn't strong enough to focus lenses mounted on the external bayonet.

[wolves3012]

I also bought a turret viewfinder and have been having fun focussing shots through the rangefinder and quickly swapping viewfinders to frame the shot. However, at some ranges (anything closer than about 20 feet) the view finder appears to be out of focus. Is this normal?

Thanks again!

Galfredus
Since the other things have been answered...no the viewfinder should not be out of focus at pretty much any distance. It may have been dismantled and not put back together properly. Firstly, do you have "normal" eyesight (i.e. not wear glasses, or are trying it with them)? Second, don't be tempted to dismantle it yourself without instructions. The turret-finder isn't overly complex but there are a couple of pitfalls for the unwary! If you think it needs checking - ask for instructions!

[Galfredus]

Thanks Wolves.

Yes, I have "Normal" eyesight....at least I do in my right eye (which is the one I use on the camera). Where might I find the instructions for dismantling and re-assembling the viewfinder?

G

[wolves3012]

Thanks Wolves.

Yes, I have "Normal" eyesight....at least I do in my right eye (which is the one I use on the camera). Where might I find the instructions for dismantling and re-assembling the viewfinder?

G
Er...I'm not sure I've ever seen any, I did mine without. The two things to be very careful of are not to lose the tiny detent-ball, under the spring on the main body and to get the assembly of the prisms correct. There's an excellent diagram of the prism arrangement on Wikipedia if you look under "Schmidt-Pechan Prism" - yours will be upside-down compared to it, however. If you remove the eyepiece and cover the prisms will fall out, along with a spacer, so hold it so they don't and make a VERY careful note of exactly how it goes together. This could actually be the area where your problem lies, if they've been re-assembled incorrectly.

The other caution I'd give you if you do dismantle it is to wear clean cotton gloves. It's an absolute nightmare to get the optical components spotlessly clean and keep them that way during assembly! Beware too that the prisms appear to be coated and would not be too difficult to chip.

[dll927]

To go back for a moment to that matter of how the turret finders are oriented: My understanding is that the ones that are oriented to the left were made for the LTM copies, since the right-oriented ones interfered with the shutter speed dial. In other words, the 'right-oriented' are for Kievs, the 'left-oriented' for Zorki et. al. Chances are that most people with one of the turret finders will use it on both types of camera, if they have them, so the whole subject may be nit-picking. The other solution, obviously, is separate finders for each focal length.