M4-P what are your thoughts? [Archive]

Tom A

08-27-2008, 09:37

The M4P is one of the "unsung" heroes of Leica M's. They are the "end" run of Midland's M production (though they did do some M6's - but they are marked Wetzlar as they were assembled in Germany).
I have had M4P's since they came out in 1980-81 and I still have two of mine from that time. Both are heavily used (to put it mildly) and apart from losing the intermediate drive in one (the one that the Rapidwinder or M-winder attaches to) and some lubrication services every 10-15 years - they just keep firing.
One of my M4P's was a testbench in my workshop for almost 10 years. Every Rapidwinder would go on it and a couple of rolls shot with it. I estimated once that it had had at least 10 000 rolls through it. The black chrome wore down through the nickel plating and into the brass! A couple of years ago I had it painted "crackle" finished black - just to make it look a bit better. Oh it still gets its fair share of film through it, but I have another couple of M6's now as testbenches, so it is retired and lives a more sedate lifestyle.
It is a workhorse camera and they are incredibly rugged. I mainly use them as 28/50/75 bodies with Tri X and guesstimate exposures.

jan normandale

08-27-2008, 09:52

yeah I've one and I got it for the versatility of the rangefinder framelines. It's got a 28mm and afaik it's the only Leica with this frameline. Tough camera. I've put mine through some 'crash tests' and it's still going. It's the one on the floor... the one on the seat is a Canonet GIII QL 17

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/318359200_7fd90d5436.jpg

Ben Z

08-27-2008, 09:55

I bought an M4-P as a "buy it now" from eBay about 8-9 years ago for $1350--along with a 4th-generation 35 Summicron, a thin 90 Tele-Elmarit, and a Leica gadget bag. The guy was local (the outfit had belonged to his recently-deceased father) so I paid him cash and picked it up in person. The slow speeds didn't work because it had been sitting a couple of years unused, so I paid Don G $285 (at the time) for an overhaul...used the camera for a year and a half, then sold it for $1250. The Type IV 35 Cron and thin T-E and gadget bag (net cost $385 total) I still have. So in my book the M4-P is the best value I've ever had in a Leica :D

Fuchs

08-27-2008, 10:06

It's got a 28mm and afaik it's the only Leica with this frameline.

Jan, the M6, M6TTL, M7, MP and M8 also have framelines for the 28mm, except for the 0.85x finder versions (where it applies).

The M4-P was the first Leica ever to sport the 28mm framelines, and yes, it is a tough camera indeed.

BillBlackwell

08-27-2008, 10:11

My search didn't find any posts about the M4-P. Anyone used this camera? A good experience? I'd like your thoughts, please:)

For all practical purposes, think of it as an M4 [minus] self timer [plus] motor/winder mechanism [plus] six framelines, and a simpler rangefinder

Or an M6 without a meter.

Also look here:

http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm

Joop van Heijgen

08-27-2008, 11:11

and also look here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47793

freeranger

08-27-2008, 11:36

Thank you everybody for the advice and links. Its given me a lot to think about before acquiring my first M-Mount.

Tuolumne

08-27-2008, 11:56

Didn't the M4-P come out after the M5? As I recall from the CameraQuest site, it was the body (designed in Canada?) that pulled Leica's ass out of the fire when the M5 bombed.

/T

rlouzan

08-27-2008, 12:08

Leica M4-2:)

Didn't the M4-P come out after the M5? As I recall from the CameraQuest site, it was the body (designed in Canada?) that pulled Leica's ass out of the fire when the M5 bombed.

/T

Tuolumne

08-27-2008, 12:10

Leica M4-2:)

So, what's the sequence:

M4 - M4-P - M5 - M4-2?

/T

literiter

08-27-2008, 12:13

My M4-P has been with me since 1986. I've really abused it, far more than my F2s or any other camera. It is still with me, working perfectly (so far), with no service or repair ever. I'd get another if I didn't have a M2 which works just as well since 1981.

rlouzan

08-27-2008, 12:21

M3, MP, M2, M1, MD, MDa, M4, M5, CL, M4-2, MD-2, M4-p, M6, ...

So, what's the sequence:

M4 - M4-P - M5 - M4-2?

/T

ferider

08-27-2008, 12:45

The only Leica that has 28 and 75 lines and the old fashioned bigger 35 and 50 lines :) The earlier ones, that is. Great camera.

Roland.

sanmich

08-27-2008, 12:59

Nice camera. The last M with the 1 meter frame lines that are more accurate at normal working distances (3 meters - infinity), that the M6 and newer bodies.

Be aware though that it need to be an early one/ recessed finder window, to have the "accurate frames".

Larry Manuel

08-27-2008, 13:33

I had one ten years ago, sold it for the wrong reasons, and alleviated my regrets by buying an M3 from a friend. The M4-P worked great, I loved it. Simple, fun, reliable, no light meter.

Roger Hicks

08-27-2008, 13:55

First Leica I ever had new; roughest Leica I've ever used; 75mm 'frames' are almost totally inadequate corners. Utterly appalling 'black chrome' finish that wore so badly that a Leica dealer friend advised m to return it under warranty.

And my newest Leica until I got an MP. Even bad Leicas are good...

Cheers,

R.

Joe Brugger

08-27-2008, 14:01

Got my M4-P about 15 years ago to replace a worn-out M2 someone offered me far too much money for. No regrets. Having six framelines is nice and don't miss the meter.

shadowfox

08-27-2008, 14:11

Thanks for the links. Great article, shadowfox. Are you still "done"?

Thank you, yes, I'm still done as far as M-system. One-body-one-lens at a time I say :)

JNewell

08-27-2008, 16:21

First Leica I ever had new; roughest Leica I've ever used; 75mm 'frames' are almost totally inadequate corners.

Ditto here, silver chrome first non-commemorative version w/ brass top plate. Worked wonderfully. Was the first Leica I had with the modified finder before there was a world wide web for everyone to complain about finder "flare" so I just kept my eye aligned and it wasn't a problem. ;)

A good camera - would buy it again.

d30gaijin

08-27-2008, 17:16

I just bought one (last week) brand new in the box. It has been sitting in its box since 1979. I put a roll of 12 through it at its 12 shutter speeds and all exposures were prefect. I bought it to resell since I got it at a ridiculous price but now have decided I will keep it. A nice compliment to my 84 vintage Wetzlar M6.

I had a well used (but not abused) M4-P about 9 years ago and sold it for some stupid reason that I soon after regretted. Now I have a new M4-P for a lower price than I paid for a well used M4-P 9 years ago.

35mmdelux

08-27-2008, 17:17

one of the best Ms around if you can do without the internal meter.

tekst

08-27-2008, 21:49

I recently swapped a d200 + 18-200vr for a cosmetically poor m4p yet mechanically perfect M4P. Just got my first roll of tmax 400 back and am very happy with the results (though I might have to start home developing as it cost an arm an' leg for development + prints). Quick question, at what distance are the framelines optimized for ? By that, I mean at what point are they most accurate. Any general Leica tips for achieving more accurate framing?? Would love to hear about them !

PS: To all you people going on about ugly black chrome finish on the M4P, Leica's are a tool not a fashion statement!

edit: just noticed someone else mentioned that they are most accurate at approx. 3 metres

PPS: Don't hesitate, go get yourself an M4-P !!1!

Dfin

08-27-2008, 22:48

Bought mine brand new in 1984 with 50 summmicron. I`ve just had it CLA`d & what a revelation, the viewfinder is so clear & contrasty, leaves my poor old Yashicas for dead. If you have the chance to buy a clean one, get it, you wont regret it.

Chris101

08-27-2008, 23:09

... Don't hesitate, go get yourself an M4-P !!1!I'll second that! Especially if you think it's a bargain.

I have an M4-P, you see it in my avatar. It's the only Leica I own, or have ever owned, so I have little to compare it to. The mechanics are smooth, the finder is clear, the RF rectangle is easy to see, the frame lines are accurate, it's sturdy, easy to load, and looks good. And there is no need for, indeed no place for a battery.

I don't know why people say the black finish is ugly. Mine is a nice matte finish, with some very slight, shiny metal spots at a few of the corners and edges. The back door seems to be made of zinc, and the paint there is chipped and ... unattractive.

So if you like an external meter, or are good at guessing exposure (B&W is no problem - and it's good mental exercise) then the M4-P is perfect.

maddoc

08-27-2008, 23:40

In my eyes, the perfect Leica. All frame lines, steal gears, motor/winder capable, hot shoe, battery-free.

"P" stands for professional, BTW ... :)

Roger Hicks

08-28-2008, 00:26

PS: To all you people going on about ugly black chrome finish on the M4P, Leica's are a tool not a fashion statement!

Yes, I know. They've been one of the essential tools for earning my living for the last 30 years or so.

And the black chrome was rubbish, even so, especially if the camera was used hard (clue: earning a living...).

Put it this way: I wouldn't buy another M4-P: I'd find the money for an MP, or stick with an M2.

Cheers,

R

TJV

08-28-2008, 01:25

I love my M4-P. I have the early version with recessed viewfinder. It feels solid works flawlessly - just like every film Leica I've owned.

Harry Lime

08-28-2008, 01:55

Be aware though that it need to be an early one/ recessed finder window, to have the "accurate frames".

You are correct, sir. :)

Late production M4-P cameras have the dreaded M6 frameline mask...

I really wish Leica would make the old M2/M4/M5/M4-2 and M4-P masks available again... (exactly as they were).

Harry Lime

08-28-2008, 02:07

And the black chrome was rubbish, even so, especially if the camera was used hard (clue: earning a living...). R

Slightly off topic, but...

Did anyone else notice a change to the character of the black chrome, when the M7 came out? My M6ttl is about 10-11 years old and new out of the box the black finish on that camera always looked mediocre at best. It's even mismatched on some of the parts. The rewind crank has a slightly different finish than the body. Now it's bald from use in many spots and overall the camera is more a shade of gun metal gray, than black...

Then about 3 years ago I added an M7 to my arsenal and one of the first things I noticed when I pulled it out of the box, was how much denser the black finish was. It wasn't just that this was a new camera. The new anodizing actually looked substantially thicker than on any M6 body I remember handling...

Anyone else notice this?

George S.

08-28-2008, 05:48

Tried to post and it didn't appear... hope it doesn't turn up with this one....

Had a couple M4-Ps, they are as well built as anything Leica ever made. They are an M6 without a meter, and have "all" the framelines- 28,35,50,75,90,135- very useful.

If you do need a meter either the Leicameter MR or the Cosina Voigtlander VC Meter II are the great choices.

JNewell

08-28-2008, 16:02

I, too, regretted selling my M4-P but I scratched that itch with a late M4, which (as much as I liked the M4-P) I have to say I like better in every respect.

David Murphy

08-28-2008, 18:46

Joop van Heijgen

08-29-2008, 03:43

I handled one once, and if I remember correctly it had 28mm frame lines which looked very convenient. My repair tech though tells me that in his opinion there are too many internal plastic gears in the camera compared to the Wetzlar M4. I'm sure the M4-P is a decent camera in the larger picture (the Wetzlar M4 is almost in a class almost of it's own mechanically - the price reflects that too). It seems to be reasonably priced by Leica M standards - maybe a bargain even.

"My repair tech though tells me that in his opinion there are too many internal plastic gears in the camera compared to the Wetzlar M4"

There are no internal 'plastic gears' to find in the M4-P...:)

Tom Abrahamsson said:

"One of my M4P's was a testbench in my workshop for almost 10 years. Every Rapidwinder would go on it and a couple of rolls shot with it. I estimated once that it had had at least 10 000 rolls through it."

"It is a workhorse camera and they are incredibly rugged."

JNewell

08-29-2008, 16:11

Yes, the gears are actually steel rather than brass, so the M4-P (and the -2) feel less smooth than the M4 and earlier.

literiter

08-29-2008, 20:33

It is true!
"There are no internal 'plastic gears' to find in the M4-P.." In fact I don't think there are any internal plastic parts on my M4-P, perhaps the insulators on the flash circuit.

Knowing what I know now after owning, and beating the hell out of my M4-P for the last 24 years I'd have no concerns over getting another if I were to lose this one.

I covet the M4 and the M6, they are great cameras but I don't own either. The M4 is a collectors piece and the M6 is a tad pricey(for me at least). There is just something about a Leica that is not made in Wetzlar that turns people away from a really good workhorse of a camera.

wlewisiii

08-29-2008, 21:03

And my newest Leica until I got an MP. Even bad Leicas are good...

Heh! If I didn't love my current .sig, that would replace it. It's how I feel about Zeiss - a dog CZJ lens is what most companies aspire to :)

OP: If I ever own another Leica (used to own a CL, sold it on the way to a Contax II), it will probably be either a M5 or a M4P depending on if the 28 frameline or meter is more important at the time. Knowning me, it'll be the M4P as I do love the 28 FOV :D

Good luck & good light!

William

David Murphy

10-11-2008, 12:06

I handled one once, and if I remember correctly it had 28mm frame lines which looked very convenient. My repair tech though tells me that in his opinion there are too many internal plastic gears in the camera compared to the Wetzlar M4. I'm sure the M4-P is a decent camera in the larger picture (the Wetzlar M4 is almost in a class almost of it's own mechanically - the price reflects that too). It seems to be reasonably priced by Leica M standards - maybe a bargain even.
Well I thought he said plastic gears, but in any event he does not think too highly of the M4-P internal gearing compared to earlier Leica M - and although I believe him, the draw of a nice bright 28mm finder is pretty powerful as is the "low" price. The funny thing is my repair tech is not too opinionated about any cameras (and hardly a Leica fan), which is why I took note of his comments on the M4-P (he seems to enjoy Minolta SLR's if I can read him at all).

I have owned (briefly) a couple of good German M4's and they are worth every penny paid - maybe more - super special in my view.

FrankS

10-11-2008, 12:55

For what it's worth, I prefer the uncluttered framelines of the M2.
The M2's build quality is not questioned.

But any screwmount or M Leica is a good camera.

Joop van Heijgen

10-11-2008, 13:51

For what it's worth, I prefer the uncluttered framelines of the M2.
The M2's build quality is not questioned.

But any screwmount or M Leica is a good camera.

In fact the build quality of the M4-P is also not questioned.

I use this camera for more than 20 years intensively; I never had technical problems with it. A very reliable camera the M4-P:)

dbledsoe

10-11-2008, 16:57

I handled one once, and if I remember correctly it had 28mm frame lines which looked very convenient. My repair tech though tells me that in his opinion there are too many internal plastic gears in the camera compared to the Wetzlar M4. I'm sure the M4-P is a decent camera in the larger picture (the Wetzlar M4 is almost in a class almost of it's own mechanically - the price reflects that too). It seems to be reasonably priced by Leica M standards - maybe a bargain even.

Your repair tech doesn't know his M4-2 or M4-P very well, you might want to consider finding a repair tech that knows Leica M cameras a bit better. As others have noted, there are no plastic gears in the M4-P. They are steel rather than the brass gears of the M2, M3, & M4 so manual film advance doesn't feel quite as silky smooth as with the M2, M3, or M4 but the gears will last a lot longer on the M4-2 or M4-P. Leica changed to steel gears in order to handle the rather high torque of the M4-2/M4-P motor winder. If you've ever used an M4-2/M4-P motor winder you'll know why they switched to steel gears.

David Murphy

10-11-2008, 17:24

Your repair tech doesn't know his M4-2 or M4-P very well, you might want to consider finding a repair tech that knows Leica M cameras a bit better. As others have noted, there are no plastic gears in the M4-P. They are steel rather than the brass gears of the M2, M3, & M4 so manual film advance doesn't feel quite as silky smooth as with the M2, M3, or M4 but the gears will last a lot longer on the M4-2 or M4-P. Leica changed to steel gears in order to handle the rather high torque of the M4-2/M4-P motor winder. If you've ever used an M4-2/M4-P motor winder you'll know why they switched to steel gears.
Yes, well my repair tech is quite a pro thank you, with many factory certifications. I value his advice partly because he's not partial at all to Leica, in fact he has a rather dim view of the Leica SLR series (saved me from going down that road - at least for now). Note that I am myself favorably disposed to Leica. BTW, maybe Leica needed to put motor drives on rangefinders for marketing or customer driven reasons, but I'd never dream of operating a rangefinder with a motor drive - bad form - that's work for a Nikon F or F2 if film is favored.

To me one essential element of a rangefinder is how one can use them to silently (at a modest or slow pace) and thoughtfully compose and capture the subject under study. Motor work is massed produced and highly practical photography, in reality best done today with a digital SLR with zoom lenses anyway.

Nh3

10-11-2008, 18:09

The only short coming is that the viewfinder flares for back lit scenes.

JNewell

10-12-2008, 16:42

I owned an M winder for a while. IMO it completely defeated much of the point of the M body. The thing was fully as big as the camera and on the noisey side.

dbledsoe

10-12-2008, 17:09

Yes, well my repair tech is quite a pro thank you, with many factory certifications. I value his advice partly because he's not partial at all to Leica, in fact he has a rather dim view of the Leica SLR series (saved me from going down that road - at least for now). Note that I am myself favorably disposed to Leica. BTW, maybe Leica needed to put motor drives on rangefinders for marketing or customer driven reasons, but I'd never dream of operating a rangefinder with a motor drive - bad form - that's work for a Nikon F or F2 if film is favored.

To me one essential element of a rangefinder is how one can use them to silently (at a modest or slow pace) and thoughtfully compose and capture the subject under study. Motor work is massed produced and highly practical photography, in reality best done today with a digital SLR with zoom lenses anyway.

David,

I certainly didn't mean to offend you or your repair tech but by your own admission it appears your repair tech doesn't know Leica M4-2 or M4-P all that well if he says they have plastic gears in them. They don't. And I have no doubt he may be a whiz on lots of cameras, just not the M4-2 M4-P. And I never said one thing about the merits of motor drive on a Leica M, rather I was pointing out the reason Leica went to steel gears on the M4-2/M4-P... how you made a leap from that to the merits of a motor on an M camera escapes me, although I do happen to agree with you that a motor drive on an M camera to me isn't needed. But then again I am willing to bet that Leica didn't take the time and money to develop an M motor drive just for marketing reasons. Someone, Pro-photogs I suspect, asked for it. In those days Leica didn't do stuff just for "marketing" purposes.

>>To me one essential element of a rangefinder is how one can use them to silently (at a modest or slow pace) and thoughtfully compose and capture the subject under study.<<

That's coming from your perspective in today's world. When the Leica motor drive was being developed there were a lot of pros (photojournalists) still using the Leica M (for many and varied reasons) who wanted the ability to rip off a number of shots to capture a sequence of action (particularly on battlefields, or possibly protest/civil rights marches, etc.) faster than they felt they could by working the wind-on lever. You need to think back to those days rather than in terms of what you think a rangefinder is best suited for in today's world (i.e., your perception of slow thoughtful silent capture).

dbledsoe

10-12-2008, 19:08

I owned an M winder for a while. IMO it completely defeated much of the point of the M body. The thing was fully as big as the camera and on the noisey side.

That is from your point of view. Were you a photojournalist in the period that the M winder was developed?

I know how big the "Thing" is, I have one.

Understand the era it was developed in and the intended audience. All of you seem to have missed that.

Tuolumne

10-12-2008, 19:26

dbledsoe

10-12-2008, 20:07

I have an M4-P that is as smooth as the M3, M2, M4, M5 and MP3 that I own. In fact, it may be smoother than them all. What I don't like is the view finder that flares in back light, although I understand it can be fixed not to do so.

/T

Smoothness is somewhat personal. I agree in that I have owned a number of M cameras over the years that I felt were smooth (I like to think in terms of silky) i.e., the M/2/M3/M4's I have owned but other folks may be of a very different opinion in that regard. I trace that to my experience, or lack there of, of not spending years and years with each particular camera to come to know/feel the subtle difference, but I have no doubt it is there. Be that as it may, the M2/M3/M4's I have owned/handled over the years were a tad smoother (think silky feeling) than the M4-2/P's I have owned, but only in terms of wind on, and that very subtle i.e., most other folks would not feel the difference without a lot of trying of each.

But none of that responds to the OP's claim that his camera tech says that Leica M4-2/P's have plastic gears. That claim is BS! And I will repeat my statement that his camera tech doesn't know squat about Leica M cameras because the M4-2/M4-P have no plastic gears... so please, let us get back to the OP's claim and forget any other claims about Leica M cameras. I repeat, the OP's camera tech claimed that the Leica M4-2/P has plastic gears. They do not!

Don

David Murphy

10-12-2008, 22:14

That is from your point of view. Were you a photojournalist in the period that the M winder was developed?

I know how big the "Thing" is, I have one.

Understand the era it was developed in and the intended audience. All of you seem to have missed that.
Don, I don't know about JNewell, but I *was* around in that era (actually a little before it), and I *was* involved in photo journalism, mostly from the 16mm spot television news side, but even a bit of still work. I was often in the company of still photographers and while I was usually too busy to gander at their cameras I can't remember anything in use other than Nikons (all F's as I recall), and a lot of them had motor drives. I did know one film camera man who had a Pentax, but he was basically a film stringer who kept it as a side tool to make extra money selling stills if the chance arose.

I'll check with my tech on the plastic gears and see what he says - I've never taken an M4-P apart myself. I know at least two models of Canon rangefinders have some plastic gear problems - the VI-L is one of them - I think these have to do with film counter wheels. Plastic gears are not necessarily bad, it depends on how much torque they are transmitting.

dbledsoe

10-13-2008, 17:17

Don, I don't know about JNewell, but I *was* around in that era (actually a little before it), and I *was* involved in photo journalism, mostly from the 16mm spot television news side, but even a bit of still work. I was often in the company of still photographers and while I was usually too busy to gander at their cameras I can't remember anything in use other than Nikons (all F's as I recall), and a lot of them had motor drives. I did know one film camera man who had a Pentax, but he was basically a film stringer who kept it as a side tool to make extra money selling stills if the chance arose.

I'll check with my tech on the plastic gears and see what he says - I've never taken an M4-P apart myself. I know at least two models of Canon rangefinders have some plastic gear problems - the VI-L is one of them - I think these have to do with film counter wheels. Plastic gears are not necessarily bad, it depends on how much torque they are transmitting.

David,

I agree that the Nikon F was king in that era (the era of the M4-2/M4-P i.e., the late mid/late 70's/early 80's) but there were still PJ's using the M system. Because you didn't see them, or those around you didn't use M cameras, doesn't mean they weren't in use by PJ's.

Be that as it may, my point remains the M4-2/M4-P did not use plastic gears. I believe the plastic gear rumor came about with the later production M6 Leica but only with regards to the frame counter gear, but I have no proof of that in that it was a rumor circulated around the Internet. All of my M6 Leica cameras have been early production units, with one venture into the M6 .85 viewfinder magnification model that I sold not long after I bought it new.

I would be interested to hear why or for what reason your camera tech steered you clear of the Leica SLR system.

Best regards,

Don

Pablito

10-13-2008, 18:12

I think mine has wooden gears - mahogany. It's from that brief secret period that Leica was manufacturing in Honduras.

dbledsoe

10-13-2008, 18:59

I think mine has wooden gears - mahogany. It's from that brief secret period that Leica was manufacturing in Honduras.

Ohooo YES! I know the period well. It was in the time that Leica hired whittlers, from all points north, south, east, and west and relocated them to Honduras, later to Wetzlar. You could tell that era M camera by the smokey smell of the wind on as one used the camera speedily... I think that ushered in the age of Speedy Gonzales (Chief wood carver) and helped to make him famous around the world.

Rare cameras indeed. I miss that smokey smell...

JNewell

10-14-2008, 16:27

That is from your point of view. Were you a photojournalist in the period that the M winder was developed?

I know how big the "Thing" is, I have one.

Understand the era it was developed in and the intended audience. All of you seem to have missed that.

Not a PJ and that is the one case that might have changed my feelings - though I am pretty darned fast with the manual wind. However, to push back a little in a friendly way, the era that it was developed was the late 70s/early 80s. It comes close (I can hear the howls :D ) to turning an M4-P into an F3. :eek:

JNewell

10-14-2008, 16:29

Heh heh...

Around in that era? Been shooting Leica Ms since 1972. So, yeah, I was around in that era. I've owned every M model except (!) an M2, multiple copies of most, and most lenses, over the years.

Don, I don't know about JNewell, but I *was* around in that era (actually a little before it), and I *was* involved in photo journalism, mostly from the 16mm spot television news side, but even a bit of still work. I was often in the company of still photographers and while I was usually too busy to gander at their cameras I can't remember anything in use other than Nikons (all F's as I recall), and a lot of them had motor drives. I did know one film camera man who had a Pentax, but he was basically a film stringer who kept it as a side tool to make extra money selling stills if the chance arose.

I'll check with my tech on the plastic gears and see what he says - I've never taken an M4-P apart myself. I know at least two models of Canon rangefinders have some plastic gear problems - the VI-L is one of them - I think these have to do with film counter wheels. Plastic gears are not necessarily bad, it depends on how much torque they are transmitting.

JNewell

10-14-2008, 16:33

Be that as it may, my point remains the M4-2/M4-P did not use plastic gears. I believe the plastic gear rumor came about with the later production M6 Leica but only with regards to the frame counter gear, but I have no proof of that in that it was a rumor circulated around the Internet.

You are correct on all points. Technically, IIRC, that isn't even true of the actual gearing on the M6 frame counter, only its mounting. I could be misremembering the details on that.

The drive gears were brass then transitioned to steel.

dbledsoe

10-14-2008, 17:53

You are correct on all points. Technically, IIRC, that isn't even true of the actual gearing on the M6 frame counter, only its mounting. I could be misremembering the details on that.

The drive gears were brass then transitioned to steel.

Which is exactly why I said I think it was an Internet rumor (re: M6 and plastic gear/frame counter).

So let me back up a bit and say this; I love my M6 and M4-P that have no plastic gears and operate super smoothly. I just wish I had more time these days to use them.

Best regards,
Don