View Full Version : Which body with which lens?
MacDaddy
08-18-2008, 16:45
I'm still debating how wide I want to go to jump back into RF film photography. Doing mainly landscape/nature/architectural shooting, I usually am shooting at 50mm or wider.
Since I'm on a budget, the choices I'm considering are: Bessa R2M w/35/1.4 and the Bessa R4M with the new Ultron 28/2.0. I'm creeping up on 60 and wear bifocals, so that viewfinder needs to be considered too. My absolute TOP budget is just at $2000 USD, delivered. Anyone care to throw their choices/suggestions into this? Thoughts on why or why not either of the body/lens choices I'm considering?
back alley
08-18-2008, 17:07
hey rob, sorry for not getting back to you...
my only concern is with the faster lenses on the cv bodies. i could easily focus the 35/1.4 on the zi but got poor results on the r4a. i'm 57 and wear tri-focals (progressive lenses).
the build quality of the r4a is great and the r3a seems as well built also.
the r4a has a lovely finder for wides and for 28 especially so as there are only the 28 framelines in there. not too sure how the 28/2 would focus but the 28/3.5 is a very sharp and small lens. for landscapes do you need a fast lens?
the zeiss ikon is a beautiful camera with a great finder and a long base length so it can focus most anything. i love looking through that finder.
it is very well built and has a very good meter built in to it.
i use a wrist strap on all my cameras most of the time and have not noticed any wear on my lugs.
not sure if any of this helps...
joe
Sounds strange, but you might want a .... self-timer.
So I recommend, Leica M2, Color Skopar 35/2.5, 28/3.5, external CV 28mm viewfinder and a classic 90/2.8 Elmarit v1, or the CV Apo-Lanthar. The 90mm lens is great for landscapes.
You'll still have money left after that.
Cheers,
Roland.
MacDaddy
08-18-2008, 18:17
Back Alley:
I do a lot of interior shots in historic buildings that are in various states of decay and disrepair as well as being dimly lit, so there is a fair amount of available light shooting. In fact, even with my D300 the only flash I have and use is the one built into it, so I tend toward the fastest lenses I can afford (at least for digital!).
I have lusted after the ZI, which brings up a question I haven't seen answered anywhere on the forum (at least, I haven't found it!) and that is, how about the ZI's viewfinder with either a 28 or 35 lens, regardless of lens speed?
Roland, that is a very interesting suggestion! Hadn't thought about trying to find a Leica simply because of lack of knowledge and funds! Checking KEH in Atlanta, they do seem to have some at reasonable prices. Hmmm! Now I have to check the classifieds here n the forum as well. 8o)
back alley
08-18-2008, 18:26
the zi finder is like looking through a picture window.
it is elegant and simple.
and that m2 is ancient and will most likely need a cla before it will be up to snuff.
MacDaddy
08-18-2008, 18:33
the zi finder is like looking through a picture window. it is elegant and simple. and that m2 is ancient and will most likely need a cla before it will be up to snuff.
8o) Sounds like the ZI is the way to go! The advantage there would be that even with either lens OR a slower/narrower one I'd be able to squeak it into that budget. I'll let everyone know, because I need to decide and get it before Labor Day when I go to Pleasant Hill, KY and the Shaker Village. Now THAT will be a fun photo shoot!
Why don't you look into a Zeiss Ikon body with a Zeiss lens. This should keep you within budget. Better quatliy overall...
Just my 2 cents
35mmdelux
08-18-2008, 19:49
Think Sam Abell. Get an M6 and Ultron 28mm/2.0 and you will pocket about $400 off your $2000 budget. The 28mm is a superb landscape lens. The Ultron is reasonably fast, which makes it a great avail light lens to boot.
enjoy the journey. Paul
Rob, I would go for the R4M or A and the 28f2.0 Ultron as my first choice and add the 35f1.4 as a second lens.
The Ultron 28f2.0 workes extremely well on the ZI (it is on my right now). but the ZI,a Ultron 28f2.0 and the 35f1.4 would be pushing your budget. The advantage is that if you pick up a ZI later, both of these lenses are compatible with the camera.
I would also go for the R4M rather than the R4A. It is easier to control the exposures on a manual meter, particularly if you are using filters etc and also when you go into dark and gloomy interiors. The AE metering system works fine with even light, but an interior with light streaming in through windows will fool it AND the AE camera is battery dependant. Battery goes- so does the camera! Later when you succumb to the ZI you will have AE system anyway!
My two cents (OK, three cents allowing for the lousy $ and inflation).
Tom
MacDaddy
08-19-2008, 02:34
Thanks to all for your feedback! I agree with Tom about battery independence; I was shooting at an old cotton gin mill in Atlanta this spring and lost the only battery I had at the time, with the end result being a lost afternoon to shoot after driving 75 miles to do it! And the width of that 28 is attractive too. Looking back at my habits with digital, roughly 50% of my shots are done at the equivalent of 26-30mm so it would hit a sweet spot for sure.
Like I said, stay tuned and I'll let you all know by next week what I wind up with! And again, thanks to ALL of you so very much for your wise suggestions!
back alley
08-19-2008, 06:11
it's 2008 folks, batteries are a fact of life.
rob, did you drive your batteryless car that 75 miles.
this battery argument drives me crazy, i have extra batteries in each of my camera bags and more in my day bag. they are cheap, small and easy to put in most cameras.
Yes, batteries are a fact of life - BUT Murphy's Law still applies. The batteries in your bag are a/the wrong ones or b/ they have mysteriously died and c/ you most likely cant poke at your AE camera with a screwdriver to make it work again!.
I like some of the AE features, but I also distrusts them. We do not agree all the time and sometimes I think that 45+ years of experience wins out over AE readings! All right, sometimes the camera is correct!
the zi finder is like looking through a picture window.
it is elegant and simple.
and that m2 is ancient and will most likely need a cla before it will be up to snuff.
A good M2 runs around US 600 max. A CLA by Youxin US 80. Then the "ancient" camera will hold up for another generation.
With a quieter shutter (less vibrations), more contrast in the RF patch (even though the viewfinder is dimmer), and a self-timer, for landscapes, the M2 runs circles around the ZI, in particular on a tripod. :)
Plus for true landscapes, AE doesn't help, a hand-held meter is necessary.
Best,
Roland.
Jamie Pillers
08-19-2008, 10:34
I had the R4a and 28 Ultron kit for awhile. I thought the viewfinder/28mm framelines of that camera were really excellent for a eyeglass wearer, like me. The 28 framelines were entirely viewable and took up nearly the whole viewfinder... perfect! I'd still have it, but I couldn't afford to keep it. :-(
back alley
08-19-2008, 14:29
A good M2 runs around US 600 max. A CLA by Youxin US 80. Then the "ancient" camera will hold up for another generation.
With a quieter shutter (less vibrations), more contrast in the RF patch (even though the viewfinder is dimmer), and a self-timer, for landscapes, the M2 runs circles around the ZI, in particular on a tripod. :)
Plus for true landscapes, AE doesn't help, a hand-held meter is necessary.
Best,
Roland.
rollie, you really like those self timers, eh? ;)
i don't own a tripod...
MacDaddy
08-19-2008, 14:46
rollie, you really like those self timers, eh? ;)
i don't own a tripod...
8o) Well, I DO! And when I shoot static things, whether landscapes, nature, architectural, etc. I not only use the tripod, but either a cable or remote release, PLUS mirror lockup, whenever the camera supports it or I feel it's needed.
The one and only time I used a self timer was the dreaded Christmas family shot, and it kept going off before I could get completely into the photo! Darned thing; I think it was mocking me! *o)
My tripod is one of the more expensive parts of my collection.
I do use cable release mostly, when with tripod.
But sometimes, when I don't have it with me, leaning the camera or myself against something and using the self-timer helps a lot. Like in a church or so ... Even hand-held it helps in available light. An old but sadly mostly forgotten technique.
For example: this was with a Zuiko 180/2.8, 100 ASA (only thing I had at the time) at a quarter of a second, wide open, leaning on a table. One out of 3 bracketed shots was a keeper (for me, at least):
http://ferider.smugmug.com/photos/301595679_agshZ-L.jpg
Cheers,
Roland.
thomasw_
08-19-2008, 14:56
A good M2 runs around US 600 max. A CLA by Youxin US 80. Then the "ancient" camera will hold up for another generation.
With a quieter shutter (less vibrations), more contrast in the RF patch (even though the viewfinder is dimmer), and a self-timer, for landscapes, the M2 runs circles around the ZI, in particular on a tripod. :)
Plus for true landscapes, AE doesn't help, a hand-held meter is necessary.
Best,
Roland.
I back the M2 and the two CV lenses suggestion. However an external finder is not necessary; instead just use Tom A's bright-window trick and use the entire viewfinder to frame the 28mm. It is clean, simple and accurate. Focussing with the fast 35/1,4 will NOT be an issue. As long as you have a hand held meter for tricky lighting, the M2 will be ready to take great photos.
35mmdelux
08-19-2008, 16:24
My Hasselblad requires no batteries and my Leicas keep going in the event of batt failure. This is the way I prefer it. YMMV
back alley
08-19-2008, 16:32
i yield to the overpowering forces of leica, and to the hordes that use ancient cameras, tripods and self timers...:)
and continue to enjoy my shiny new cameras, vista like viewfinders and advanced coatings...;)
hexar_hp5
08-20-2008, 15:09
The problem with the M2 is that it's getting difficult to find one with a good viewfinder. The ones that I have had, I've had to send back as they have had decemting or the crazy gold in the viewfinder.
I do agree though that if you are lucky enough to find one in good order they would pretty much be the ideal camera.
For my the viewfinder is both the strength and weakness of this camera. Though to be fair the viewfinder is older than I am, but I'd hate to get one and then in 6 months have to junk it due to the viewfinder.
Please tell me I'm wrong.
MacDaddy
08-20-2008, 15:23
Whew! We do get passionate about our camera systems, don't we? And I love it! I had an opportunity to get to Atlanta and place my grubby hands on some clean Leicas (M2,3,4,5 and M6), a nice used Zeiss Ikon and Bessa R3A/M and a R4M and try them out late yesterday at a used camera dealer.
Today, I ordered both the used ZI and the Bessa R4M body from that dealer and will order CV lenses from Cameraquest before the weekend (The 28/2 and the 35/1.4 SC).
Sorry Leicaphiles, but I have to agree with Joe about the viewfinder on the ZI and with Tom about the R4M. As much as I liked the heft of the Leicas, as I'm essentially starting fresh and without bias, I chose to go with BOTH Zeiss and Bessa for the camera bodies.
Budget constraints dictated the CV lenses for now, but as I renew my love affair with minimalist film shooting and cameras that don't get in the way of the process, (MAN! Do I love THAT!) I will add both Zeiss and Leica lenses. When I do, I'll be back for additional opinions about those.
Thank all of you again for your kindness and thoughts. I'll start posting when I get back from Pleasant Hill, KY in a couple weeks.
Well, now that you got married, we cann't criticize them any more .... :)
Congrats, Rob ! I'm sure you'll enjoy the set !
Roland.
Good pick for a working kit! I did exercise admirable restraint in NOT recommending the M2. They are getting difficult to find in good shape and if we keep telling the world about them. they will "dry up" completely!
Just to get your desires going, next lens should probably be the 21f4.5 C Biogon. Doesn't get any better than that one! In the meantime, enjoy the shooting.
wjlapier
08-21-2008, 07:06
Good pick for a working kit! I did exercise admirable restraint in NOT recommending the M2. They are getting difficult to find in good shape and if we keep telling the world about them. they will "dry up" completely!
Just to get your desires going, next lens should probably be the 21f4.5 C Biogon. Doesn't get any better than that one! In the meantime, enjoy the shooting.
From the beginning of this thread I was thinking Zeiss 21 and a S2 for starts. That would get close to $1500. Add 21 and 35 finders and the CZJ 35 I HAD and you're close to $2000. The CZ 21 Biogon will eat up most of your budget, but it's a beautiful lens and razor sharp. I have a couple of rolls to develop I shot with the 21 on the S2 in Glacier National Park. Red filter too! Hopefully I exposed properly:cool:
But I see the OP has chose his camera and lenses. Looking forward to the pics from the new kit.
kshapero
08-21-2008, 08:34
Yes, batteries are a fact of life - BUT Murphy's Law still applies. The batteries in your bag are a/the wrong ones or b/ they have mysteriously died and c/ you most likely cant poke at your AE camera with a screwdriver to make it work again!.
I like some of the AE features, but I also distrusts them. We do not agree all the time and sometimes I think that 45+ years of experience wins out over AE readings! All right, sometimes the camera is correct!
I have been shooting for about 35 years all over the world. I have used manual metered and AE cameras of several makes. I have never missed a shot because of a battery failure. I do always carry a spare set, but have never had a call to need them while in the field. Call me lucky.
MacDaddy
08-21-2008, 10:33
I have been shooting for about 35 years all over the world. I have used manual metered and AE cameras of several makes. I have never missed a shot because of a battery failure. I do always carry a spare set, but have never had a call to need them while in the field. Call me lucky.
Indeed all of you are who've never had it happen! As I shared, I drove the 75 miles to Atlanta for a shoot at an old cotton gin mill and after only 45 minutes of shooting my Nikon D300 bit the dust from the dreaded "battery charge failure" syndrome that was eventually fixed with a firmware update.
End of shooting day, beginning of frustration and impetus for me to go back to a simplified film camera that does NOT need a battery to keep shooting! I don't know if Tom A is a "belt and suspenders" kind of guy like me, but that won't happen again if I can help it! And I've been shooting for "only" 21 years. 8o)
Good luck - it sounds like you've found a nice kit!
Speaking of batteries, I was on Maui using and old Agfa folder and metering with a little Sekonic meter when the meter fell and broke. Luckily I was studying the Sunny 16 rule. Not one shot was missed due to poor exposure.
Bit late, but just a few thoughts on the R4A/M battery differences.
I bought an R4A some time ago, and I love it - but I often get the feeling that I'd have been better off with an R4M.
Over the years that I have been a bit obsessive about getting caught out with no batteries, I actually haven't lost a single shot for that reason, so that's not my worry.
My problem is that when I want to shoot at a different exposure to the camera's choice, I can set the camera to manual metering OK, but I get distracted by the viewfinder display telling me I'm wrong - I'd prefer to have a way to shoot with the meter switched off completely.
Yesterday we went downtown for a walk. Brought a ZI, Nikon S4 and a SP.
I was trying to round out some films, I do process in 5 rolls batches and needed a couple to fill the tanks. Halfway through merrily shooting with the ZI and the 28f2 Ultron, the camera locks up!!!! I did fish out another pack of SR 76 batteries. After two shots, the camera locks up again! Dud batteries!!! Some swearing and the Nikon's were brought out. Sunny f16 and no batteries to contend with. Of course now I am 2 rolls short of a process run and the film in the ZI is 80asa Plus X/5231 movie stock and it is raining!!!
I think I am going to take a M2 with XX for a walk instead!
mynikonf2
09-03-2008, 10:40
Good pick for a working kit! I did exercise admirable restraint in NOT recommending the M2. They are getting difficult to find in good shape and if we keep telling the world about them. they will "dry up" completely!
Just to get your desires going, next lens should probably be the 21f4.5 C Biogon. Doesn't get any better than that one! In the meantime, enjoy the shooting.
Tom,
When it comes to finding good M2's this is true, it has taken me a very long time to find a GREAT M2 visit this link :
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/12157/cat/2/limit/recent
Not only did I find a great M2 but I found it a an awesome price. Thanks to RFF members like Kevin these cameras get passed on to fellow Rff members instead of being placed on evilbay just for profit.
Now I need to find a "quick rewind" for it, any suggestions as where to look? Also, I need a good 35mm lens, any suggestions here?
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