A reveiew of the M8 by B&H's Jim Fisher. [Archive]

35mmdelux

08-05-2008, 21:29

Thanks for the kind words guys. :)

I learned early on as a writer, from a really awful article I wrote, not to write a review of a product I hadn't used hands-on extensively, and certainly not to recommend a product I felt was a bad one. There's a very simple reason for this -- if I recommend a bad product, and you buy it on that recommendation, one sale has been made at the cost of all future sales. It's very difficult to build trust, and easy to lose it.

Jim
http://www.downeffect.com/jim/portfolio

B&H does good by me. Big shout out to the order desk.

Outstanding review. Hope to see more. Welcome aboard Jim.

Paul

henryp

08-07-2008, 06:15

B&H does good by me. Big shout out to the order desk. Outstanding review. Hope to see more. Welcome aboard Jim.

Thanks for your kind words about us and about our reviews. We endeavor at all times to keep them as honest as possible and to write fairly about the product being reviewed.

BTW, the D700 review is online here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Nikon-D700.jsp).

whitecat

08-07-2008, 06:37

B and H is the best..............but they have to get Minox film back in stock!

memphis

08-07-2008, 07:01

B&H has posted my reviews for product in the past - their website is clean and easy to use -- one of the better camera sites out there --- they were very straightforward and helped me out of a jam caused by purchasing from broadway photo ----

good guys, fast shipping, and honest ---- my review is of the lumix lx-2 --- they also have a contest / reward program that if you complete a review, you're eligible for a $100 gift card --- would love to get one for my review...

GrahamWelland

08-08-2008, 14:59

Another big thank you and recommendation for B&H. I've been a regular (too regular!!) customer for many years and I've had nothing but exemplary service from them. I also applaud them for being public members of this forum too! Kudos to Henry and Jim.

POINT OF VIEW

08-08-2008, 16:06

I think his reviews are well written, with the obvious proviso that he works for B&H Photo and is unlikely to write things that would prevent them from selling cameras.

This is a review in the B&H net page - M8 sale page. It sounds very critical to me.
Granted this photographer does not work for B&H but it’s very obvious they will print a review that is negative regarding products they sell. As a mater of fact their products, customer reviews are full of negative comments.

Crippled Camera ONLY 8 bits of color depth By Anton from NYC on 2/26/2007
The prototype for this camera had 14 bit output. The shipped version has a vodo/compressed DNG of a very low 8 bits of color depth. Supposedly the 14 bits the senor can capture is compressed via some special compression and those 6 bit which are thrown away don't matter. This is contrary to everything I have been taught about the value and importance of capture images in the highest bit depth possible that and processing this hit bit raw in 16 bit mode to ensure the highest output possible. My teachers have been Jeff Schewe just to name of the seminal figures and founding fathers of the digital. Additionally Leica has even admitted, albeit in long winded, in their January and February issues of LFI magazine that their decisions to use 8 bit files does adversely affect image quality. Read the conclusion in the LFI article for February and it is right there. I wish is weren't so but Leica crippled a camera that could have been great. This won't matter for the die hard cult of Leica and for those who don't understand digital. It is a decent film maker and could have been much better had Leica given their user everything the camera is capable of delivering. Oh well there is always the M9. I have canceled my order after shooting with a friend's for a week. Leica is new to digital and their lack of size and consequently their ability to pay for the research and development needed to understand digital well enough to innovate is apparent. I can say the design and build quality of the camera is superb and the user interface the best on the market. Really a joy to use and hold but a a let down on image quality. A shame really. I wanted to love this camera. I love it's size and feel.

Problems Encountered: Lack of bit depth.Need to use an accessory Infared Filter due to bad design and testing.

Previous Equivalent Items Owned: 1ds Mark II, 5d, P45, xti. leica m3, mp

Items I Recommend: ir-uv filter 486 from BW

henryp

08-11-2008, 07:50

Of course B&H is not going to publish a review that says "don't buy something we are trying to sell." I admit is it kind of a Doh! remark on Sniper's part.

By coincidence this came up in a dpreview.com thread about our "Hands-On with Nikon's D700 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Nikon-D700.jsp)" article.

The comment was: I would take any "review" of any product with a grain of salt if the reviewer had a stake in it. B&H wants to sell it. Why would they say anything but "It's a great camera!"

My reply:
You should certainly consider the source for any review you read or recommendation you get whether it's from us or from someone here, for example.

Why should you give credence to our reviews? Two reasons come to mind immediately. The first is our integrity, which I would like to think is pretty solid. The second is that (as others have observed) we do sell 'most everything and frankly don't too much care what you buy as long as it's what you want and need and will do the job you want it to do.

If customer 1 is happy with model XXX from brand "A," and customer 2 is happy with model YYY from brand "B," all's good.

Tuolumne

08-11-2008, 07:57

If B&H made their money from selling advertising I'd be alot more skeptical of their reviews. But they sell cameras - if one is no good, they've got others to offer. They don't have to watch their back from being stabbed by advertisers. They do have to watch their integrity to be true to the camera buying customer. I'd say their reviews are probably no more biased than any others you read on line. For that matter, how do you know some "independent" isn't being paid by a camera company to hype its products? Consider the source and consider the content. The two together will usually allow you to differentiate the genuine from the sham.

/T
P.S. Two thumbs up for B&H. It's one of the few places I shop for camera gear online.

memphis

08-11-2008, 08:01

Henry - I just recommended a friend to buy some product from y'all as my experiences with B&H have always been a pleasure

henryp

08-12-2008, 18:18

I seem to be somewhat unusual, perhaps because I am so involved with a number of dealers in NYC, but I really do not care at all what dealers think about cameras. I know too much?

I expect salesmen to be polite and know how cameras operate, but I do not expect them to be professionals forced to work in a camera store because they can't find work (I certainly don't look down on moonlighting however, times are tough). The idea that photo stores should be staffed by photographers, is about as impossible as expecting the Gap to be staffed by clothing designers.

One reason B&H is unique is that many on our staff come from the ranks of professionals in the fields of photography, video and pro-audio. I did. I was a full-time pro photog for 20+ years before coming to B&H and I did NOT do so because I was "forced to work in a camera store." I quit a job I had tenure in to come to B&H because I wanted an exciting new challenge where I could apply what I knew and know about photography technically and aesthetically in a new endeavor. I'm glad I did.

I'm not the only one at B&H who can say this either and many of us who can still shoot on our own time.

I don't look down on Minor White's photographs because he taught at MIT nor at Jerry Uselmann who taught at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

You might care more about what your dealer thinks if you know more about your dealer, eh? The idea that photo stores should be staffed by photographers is what B&H is all about.

memphis

08-12-2008, 18:38

As a non-new yorker, I like B&H ---i was getting the big catalogue until I moved- -- it's kinda like the old sears catalogue -- lots of everything

Keith

08-12-2008, 18:47

One reason B&H is unique is that many on our staff come from the ranks of professionals in the fields of photography, video and pro-audio. I did. I was a full-time pro photog for 20+ years before coming to B&H and I did NOT do so because I was "forced to work in a camera store." I quit a job I had tenure in to come to B&H because I wanted an exciting new challenge where I could apply what I knew and know about photography technically and aesthetically in a new endeavor. I'm glad I did.

I'm not the only one at B&H who can say this either and many of us who can still shoot on our own time.

I don't look down on Minor White's photographs because he taught at MIT nor at Jerry Uselmann who taught at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

You might care more about what your dealer thinks if you know more about your dealer, eh? The idea that photo stores should be staffed by photographers is what B&H is all about.

Good of you to take the time to contibute to this thread Henry! :)

Being from the land down under where film and associated products seem to be horribly expensive, try $10.00 for a roll of TRI-X in one of Brisbane's larger camera stores that still actually stocks a decent range of film, I tend to shop via the internet and have bought film etc and also a Domke bag from B&H. I've been getting an Australian group together from RFF every now and then and putting a bulk order in which allows us to share the freight costs not to mention have access to items that are very hard to get here in OZ.

On the one bulk order I've done with B&H the freight costs were substantially higher than Freestyle which has made me stay with them but I must admit I prefer B&H's site and your products are generally similarly priced.

With your own market being so large in the US how importantly do you regard customers from this part of the world ... and is the process of sending packages of gear to the other side of the planet a pain in the you know what .... or do you value the business and feel it's issential to B&H's customer service attitude? :)

Cheers ... Keith

henryp

08-13-2008, 12:06

As a non-new yorker, I like B&H ---i was getting the big catalogue until I moved- -- it's kinda like the old sears catalogue -- lots of everything

No reason you cannot continue to enjoy it. From here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/FreeCatalog.jsp) you can download it as a pdf file or enter your subscription to get it via snailmail.

henryp

08-13-2008, 12:09

With your own market being so large in the US how importantly do you regard customers from this part of the world ... and is the process of sending packages of gear to the other side of the planet a pain in the you know what .... or do you value the business and feel it's issential to B&H's customer service attitude?

We regard every customer with equal appreciation and affection no matter where they may reside. The process of shipping packages is pretty much the same, no matter what the destination. Assemble the order items, pack them in a box with "peanuts" or air bags (or whatever), seal the box, slap on a shipping label and hand it to the guy from UPS.

We absolutely value customers from everywhere.

Double Negative

08-13-2008, 13:46

I've been buying from B&H for over 20 years, IIRC. Just placed my most recent order less than an hour ago. :)

memphis

08-13-2008, 16:20

No reason you cannot continue to enjoy it. From here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/FreeCatalog.jsp) you can download it as a pdf file or enter your subscription to get it via snailmail.

done -- I've just been busy getting settled into the new house

thanks again henry ---

kuzano

08-13-2008, 20:02

B and H is the best..............but they have to get Minox film back in stock!

http://www.frugalphotographer.com/catMinoxFilm.htm

photomoof

08-13-2008, 21:06

:bang: Deleted due to head banging against wall -- see answer to memphis below.

henryp

08-14-2008, 06:44

B&H is not staffed by Minor Whites and Jerry Uselmanns. I have great respect for B&H, and what it has accomplished since it's humble beginnings in lower Manhattan, but it is not The Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

B&H's very diverse staff includes some photographers/videeographers, etc of remarkable talent and accomplishment who, for equally diverse and personal reasons, have elected to work here. Some supplement other income, some appreciate the exposure to the newest state-of-the-art technology, some enjoy the camaraderie of daily exposure to other equally skilled image-makers. We're not MIT, but nor is B&H a box-house staffed by drones who'd be equally content at a haberdashery.

Odd, your notion that other photographers and artists look down on college professors! Pardon me. It was your comment, "I expect salesmen to be polite and know how cameras operate, but I do not expect them to be professionals forced to work in a camera store because they can't find work (I certainly don't look down on moonlighting however, times are tough). The idea that photo stores should be staffed by photographers, is about as impossible as expecting the Gap to be staffed by clothing designers," which I think could easily be interpreted as vaguely disparaging to retail sales employees in general and B&H employees in particular which lead me to make the comparison I did. I never said or suggested or implied or stated that anyone has or should have a less-than favorable opinion of college professors, but I think you said customers of B&H, particularly those who style themselves as pros could rightly consider B&H sales associates as mere store clerks when nothing could be further from the truth.

What I said was looking down on someone who chooses to work at B&H is as wrong and misguided as looking down on those two fine photographers for working at colleges would be.

I don't appreciate being misinterpreted any more than I appreciate disparaging comments about our sales associates whom I consider to be all-in-all an excellent group of skilled and talented professionals who work here by choice.

photogdave

08-14-2008, 08:10

Fred, you just seem unwilling to accept the possibility that someone who knows as much about photography as you think you do would consider working in a camera shop.
Well sorry to drag you into reality, but it happens. You may have not witnessed it personally in the five boroughs, but if you were to broaden your horizons a bit you will witness the phenomenon in many parts of the world.
It's a fact. Accept it and move on,, or keep your head buried in the sand.

Double Negative

08-14-2008, 08:20

^ Yeah, really.

I'll take an "enthusiast" (or a "pro") behind the counter over some kid that knows less than nothing that's only there to take orders - as is often the case with "big box stores" like Staples or Best Buy. When I ask for a widget, I want a widget... Not a glazed-over look on his beady eyes as he mouths the word "huh?"

Some folks have more knowledge and wisdom than others, that's a given, regardless of the industry.

Ever stop to think about older pros that are either retired or semi-retired and just want to do a day job now, at least doing something they love? Or someone in college that is taking photography, for example - or someone that needs supplemental income to their freelance work?

memphis

08-14-2008, 08:28

a lot of people biting the proverbial hand... y'all should be glad someone still carries film and film cameras.

A better tact for some of these forum members might be:

Henry, I seem to have the dilema of nobody locally carrying HIE film, also, I could use any old agfa film stock you might have sitting around.... Thanks...

Henry has been nothing but nice in this post and some rude forum members are coming after him pretty aggressively here -- for that, I apologize...

Thanks again for the catalog link

memphis

08-14-2008, 08:28

would you rather get your digital camera from best buy or b&H ---

David Goldfarb

08-14-2008, 08:58

As someone who is fortunate enough to be able to deal with the staff directly at B&H, I'll attest that in my experience, the sales staff is honest and very willing to steer people away from equipment they think isn't very good and to direct someone toward a less expensive product, when it might be a better choice for the job.

I remember one old timer behind the counter, for instance, complaining that one dog of a Kodak DSLR was "the slowest camera on the planet," and what a loss it was going to be for B&H to have 10 of these sitting in stock with the price dropping 25% a week, because no one wanted them.

Another time a young photo student with a Mamiya 7II was asking about getting a flash, and was looking at a Metz, and the sales staff intuited, rightly I think, that given the kind of photography she said she was doing, she might not like the look of straight-on flash, and recommended that she try something cheaper like a Vivitar, before investing in a high-end flash unit.

The lighting guys are probably the most professional, I'd say, and always can figure out what kind of obscure grip equipment or Norman reflector I need, when I don't quite know what to call it.

memphis

08-14-2008, 09:15

B&H is not a nonprofit charity, and trust me Henry can take care of himself.

But they are a business, if no one buys any film for a few months they will stop selling it. Obviously that has not happened.

They are running a business up there, and yes they do a great job on many levels, and I personally welcome each move they have made to come out from behind the high formica counters they had on 17th street.

And yes -- I long for a store like Ken Hansen Photographic of the 80s, and know it is never coming back.

Henry does pay attention. He is not here just to make friends, he is listening to everyone (even me), and I see it in the store.

most of the photographers here are not new york and have never seen the high formica counters and so forth... If you don't like B&H - try an order from broadway photo :rolleyes: (just kidding)

All I'm saying is I've had good experiences.

David Goldfarb

08-14-2008, 09:16

Quality of the last Kodak DSLR aside, my point is just that the sales staff won't hold back to make a sale, if they think a product is a bad choice or a lemon.

photogdave

08-14-2008, 09:28

I know it is your new hobby on the RFF to insult me, but you are so far off base about what I am talking about, that we are not even close to the same page, as Henry and I are not talking about the same knowledge or skills that salesmen should have.

I don't even imagine to know -- what you seem to think, I think I know.

Get real bud, after I got my MFA, I worked in construction, bars, bike shops, and even camera stores, this is not a discussion about how we all survive. This is about how retail should work, and what we should expect from our stores.
I don't care enough to insult you. I don't care about your MFA and I don't go out of my way to find your posts and start arguments.
But from what I've read in this thread and the recent one about supporting your local camera shop, you SEEM to be bent on convincing RFF that camera store sales staff couldn't be as knowledgeable or passionate about photography as a working pro, and that their advice is unworthy. That may be your opinion, bud, but many of us have experience to the contrary.
Have a nice day. :)

jaapv

08-14-2008, 09:58

I would not buy in a shop that is shortsighted enough to create unhappy customers by selling unsuitable stuff or lemons regardless. The best way to lose return business imo.

Double Negative

08-14-2008, 11:26

^ Ahh, now that sounds a little different.

I agree, the old "mom and pop" stores were an entirely different experience. You never felt overwhelmed or rushed, the folks there usually recognized you and probably asked how that last something-or-other worked out for you, and stocked things they knew you frequently bought with a, "hey, I set aside that film for you - wanna take it now, or should I hold onto it?"

Sadly, photo shops aren't the only ones "obsoleted" by the big stores. Try and find a nice local hardware store, for example. These "big box stores" are what people *seem* to want these days because of the desire for obtaining product at the lowest cost and relying on the Interwebs for reviews and "word of mouth" on stuff. This will come back to bite us all in the ass - if it hasn't already (your posts are already an indication that it has).

So yeah, B&H isn't your old school, local photo store - especially these days. But their prices are fair, their inventory mind-boggling and they tend to do right by their customers. To be honest, I don't usually buy the big-ticket items from them because I have to eat NYS tax. But consumables as you say, or to go there and physically look at something that a Web browser doesn't properly convey for sure. Short of a camera or lens, I'll buy everything else there... Bags, film, tripods, etc. Just yesterday I ordered some chemicals and film.

henryp

08-14-2008, 13:25

Which is not to say I have ever had anything but a completely honest and straightforward experience there. But for many years, when they were on 17th Street, I rarely shopped there, the experience was just too impersonal for me.

I think we can all agree the 17th St store was too small, too crowded, and not particularly pleasant. We'd outgrown it a while before we moved out of it. (Although we did get a spate of e-mails from the NYU crowd when we left that Friday after Noon was prime pick-up time as college kids queued up to buy film, paper etc for weekend projects and homework.)

But even at that store they knew how to service the pros. When passing by, or there with others, I would see the assistants of pros walking out of there with shopping bags full of film, because B&H was keeping it on ice and getting it cheaper than anyone else.Thank you.

Thus began the long road of going to Ken Hansen for the ambiance...I distinctly recall the ambiance at Ken's, where the equipment on display was fabulous and the attitude I encountered too often was of the nose-in-the-air, if you have to ask... variety. I was a relatively young pup photo-wise then and if I'd been met with a little more kindness and guidance rather than the W.C. Fields-esque come back when you're grown they'd have had me (and others like me) as long-term loyal customers. Instead, they didn't and now where are they?

B&H is without question one of the nicest box stores I have ever shopped at, no attitude, nice people, but it is just not for me.You don't quit, do you? :-)
B&H IS NOT A BOX STORE. B&H is a full-service retailer offering price, availability, product knowledge and real-time experience of the sales staff among its other attributes.

So it's not that I don't like B&H, or that I don't believe Henry believes in his people, it's just not quite for me.
I go, I buy, I leave, and it is never the least bit painful, but it is never memorable either.I'm tempted to say that if you want memorable you should try Yosemite or the Blue Ridge mountains and that for me at least, shopping's not something I consider memorable, per se, but I am willing to admit I may be out of the ordinary. I appreciate that customers want to be appreciated, but I do not expect sales associates and shop keepers to drop what they're doing and scurry to my side with pleasantries upon my arrival. (In my mind I see Margaret Sullavan from The Shop Around The Corner (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033045/)).

I expect courteous, efficient, professional service and anytime anyone doesn't get that at the very least, we want to know. I'm a good-better-best type and there's always room to improve.

I believe in joining photo clubs, or arts organizations, going to shows...Where from time to time you'll no doubt run into fellow pros, some of whom just might be B&H sales associates too.

David Goldfarb

08-14-2008, 13:48

I distinctly recall the ambiance at Ken's, where the equipment on display was fabulous and the attitude I encountered too often was of the nose-in-the-air, if you have to ask... variety. I was a relatively young pup photo-wise then and if I'd been met with a little more kindness and guidance rather than the W.C. Fields-esque come back when you're grown they'd have had me (and others like me) as long-term loyal customers. Instead, they didn't and now where are they?

That wasn't my experience at all. When I came in for the first time in 1991 I'd just moved to New York to start a PhD program. I wanted to shoot headshots to make some money on the side and went into Ken Hansen to trade a Pentacon 6 system that I'd acquired for peanuts in Poland before the internet made such things easily available in the US. Hansen gave me a fair price in trade (the best offer I'd gotten after shopping it around the city) and sold me a second-hand Norman setup at a fair price. The guy at the medium format counter took time to discuss my system and make a reasonable assessment of it, and the salesman in lighting spent an hour with me to make sure I had what I needed and that I knew how to use it safely. I'd still be shopping there, if they were still in business.

I gather Ken Hansen does still sell some equipment out of his apartment--Leica and Rolleiflex, I've heard. He also sells some items on eBay.

photogdave

08-14-2008, 13:52

You may indeed not give a damn about arts education (MFAs) or working with others collaboratively, but I do. My creative friends are very important to me, salespeople, not so much.

Keep your inferences to yourself. What I actually said was I don't care that YOU have an MFA. That does not imply that I don't care about arts education or collaborations.
You are reading what you want to see, not what I typed.

henryp

08-14-2008, 13:56

That wasn't my experience at all. When I came in for the first time in 1991 ...
Good to hear. My first experiences with Ken's emporium were several years earlier.

Keep your inferences to yourself. What I actually said was I don't care that YOU have an MFA. That does not imply that I don't care about arts education or collaborations.
You are reading what you want to see, not what I typed.
I got the same when my observation about Minor White & MIT was misconstrued too. Shame.

Double Negative

08-14-2008, 14:40

...I am a bit frozen in time, art-wise...

With all due respect, I dare say not just art-wise. ;)

I think we'd all like to have the good old-fashioned, local camera shops of years gone-by still around. But today's economy and the competitiveness that the Internet breeds just don't really allow for it anymore I'm afraid.

I walked into my ol' stomping grounds (local camera shop) just the other day after an admittedly loooong absence and it looked like it was gutted. The film stock on the shelf was grim, their 30-minute processor in the back room was gone, no other customer in sight and the cases that used to have all the Usual Suspects also looked rather bare. It was a sad sight to see. Needless to say they no longer carried anything I needed and I left, empty-handed.

henryp

08-17-2008, 13:44

Since you are totally invisible (no CV or gallery of photos) on the web, there is no way for me to establish a point of reference.

Invisible? I've been online for B&H and completely transparent online for a decade-plus. I think my online credentials are impeccable and unimpeachable. I do not have images online so you cannot dissect them to decide if you think I'm a mediocre or good or excellent photographer, but I've learned that image quality is not what distinguishes a pro from a non-pro. I do know I earned 100% of my living as a photographer for 20+ years before I came to B&H and was hired by B&H partially because of that experience. It would seem my employers and customers thought my images at least adequate.

Having this discussion was absurd on my part, I regret getting involved with a photo marketing discussion.

This is a "photo marketing discussion?"

B&H says they are fully staffed by "professional photographers"

And in large measure (although not entirely by any means) we are, in the areas where it's important. I doubt you'd find a phalanx of pros selling iPods in our Manhattan store, but if you engage a sales associate in our lighting or pro camera or pro video or pro-audio departments odds are you'll be talking to someone who can talk the talk and walk the walk.

There is no question that B&H Photo will take care of its customers in a speedy and honest manner. I have never had even a whiff of a problem with any order I have made with them. I will continue to buy from them with confidence, from time to time in the future, and will continue to recommend them to my friends.

Thank you.

If you are a working professional photographer, and would like a sales career at B&H Photo, here is where you may apply:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/careers/index.htm

Thanks again. We're always interested in people who fit our qualifications which include knowledge, experience and a great attitude.

sfokevin

08-17-2008, 17:42

One final note
I do not currently, and have never, identified myself as a professional photographer. (and I have the IRS forms to prove it :cool:)

Owning Leica and not writing them off as a business expense!!!... True dedication!!! :D

henryp

08-17-2008, 20:42

Well finally the man gets it.
Finally??? I've been saying the same thing from A to A whilew you've been editing and modifying posts throughoutthis thread and have been argumentative and not a little disparaging to boot. Finally indeed. This is more than a little disingenuous IMO.

Being a pro means nothing in relation to image quality or knowledge about photography.

Of COURSE it does. Being a pro means getting out of bed and doing the job at hand whether you're in the mood or not. It means producing work acceptabnle to your bosses and customers day in and day out whether you or the task is inspiring or stultifying. It means taking care of business, comporting yourself a certain way and both talking the talk and walking the walk. It means being able to handle the work and produce at the very least, acceptable results, over and over and over again.

As noted many times, in this thread and others, I think the advice B&H sales offers about reliability, ease of obtaining parts, the information stores really can accurately gather, is the best there is.

Thank you.

On your first point, credentials:
You do indeed have the right to be private

That's right. I do.