View Full Version : Heads Up: Looks Like M8 on Ebay Doesn't Exist
This is auction #170245079459 for an M8 that ended yesterday at 10:40 am Pacific Time. I just sent this to Ebay Security:
Dear Ebay Security:
1) Seller has 0 rating.
2) Buyer has 494 rating.
3) Seller sold a “Leica M8 camera”, quite rare, about 10,000 made annually.
4) Winning bid was $4,050 USD and ended at 10:40 am Pacific Time on August 1.
5) I, as buyer, live in same city as seller.
6) I emailed seller 40 minutes after end of auction, asking when we can meet so I can give him cash, and gave him my cell number.
7) Seller refuses to meet, insists on Paypal only.
8) Ad says “Paypal preferred”; does not say Paypal only.
9) Seller has since admitted that ad says Paypal preferred: “i did say prefered payment was paypal and did not say i was going to meet, or have over for tea,or any other form of payment/SHIPPING if this is not good I will relist it.....”
10) I offered to meet in a neutral, safe area and suggested meeting at the local RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) station’s public reception area. : )
11) Seller suggests that I might not be willing to pay: “yes a prudent buyer, also a person who might not want to pay for a item they had bid on. What ever just say you are not going to use paypal and i will sell it to somebody else sorry to have put you out.”
12) I emailed seller a picture of $4,050 cash alongside front page of local paper from August 1st.
13) This morning I emailed him another picture of $4,050 in cash, along with front page of local paper from August 2nd.
14) I emailed another buyer who is also local, and won two auctions from same seller: “I also live locally and was thinking of picking up the item, since it safeguards me against any defective or scamming activities. However, the seller seems quite resistent on meeting locally”
15) I strongly suspect that seller does not actually have the item for sale:
(A) Stock photo only in ad
(B) Said he would post picture of actual item, but never did
(C) Says, “New, Never Opened” but later in answer to question says “has only maybe a hour, two tops on it as far as usage goes…”
(D) Listed under “SLR, Professional”. A Leica M8 is not a SLR; it’s a rangefinder. Someone who owns something as rare as a Leica would know that.
(E) Listing only mentions shipping to the US. Why not sell to Canada since seller lives in Canada?
(F) Has never given me his name, address, or a phone number.
(G) Has never signed any of his emails with his name.
(H) Uses a gmail account.
(I) Seller has my cell number but has never phoned me.
I have offered this morning that if he doesn’t want to meet, then he can courier the camera over to me COD. Seems fair since his rating is 0 and mine is 494.
If he doesn’t contact me by 9:00 am this morning, to give me a time as to when we can meet at the RCMP station, I told him I would be contacting the RCMP Internet Crime Division. He still has less than an hour to respond.
He says he will relist it. I leave that in your hands to deal with.
Sincerely, Eric Ho
Well, I dunno. Should I Paypal him $4,050? http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
He says he will relist, so HEADS UP!!!
Kinda bummer of a first post, but the least I can do for fellow members, whom I've learned a lot from due to my lurking here the last month or two...
SolaresLarrave
08-02-2008, 08:36
Well, Eric... good luck and thanks for an exciting story! :)
BTW, welcome to RFF. You'll find lots of compatriots here.
photomoof
08-02-2008, 08:40
Well obviously he has no obligation to meet you, or do anything but take paypal and ship it to you. I do not meet buyers, that is why I use eBay. If I want to meet I use Craigslist.
But weren't you a bit suspicious about the ad.
Welcome Eric.
You know, maybe the seller tells the truth and doesn't want to meet you (he doesn't have to) due to his limited moving capability (see his answer to one of the questions) ? Just a thought.
Just buy another one. One recently was listed at RFF from a reliable seller (Robert) for an equivalent price.
On a practical note, this alert will help no one, since we have no info on the camera and the seller could just create another new, 0 feedback account.
Roland.
sienarot
08-02-2008, 08:44
Watch out for those Calgarians who will drive 1000km to deliver too. They're trouble! ;)
Yup, I was definitely suspicious about the ad. And a 0 rating? That's why I suggested that if he doesn't want to meet he should courier it to me COD. Not to mention that he would save $170 in Paypal & shipping fees, and not have to wait for his money. And I still do not have his name, address, a phone number of any kind, and only a gmail address.
BTW, I'm the one who bought the Tri-Elmar off Derrick here (sienarot). Guess what? We did it in person! (Derrick was in town for something else so he brought it with him).
Hey Derrick, you can type faster than I can! BTW, I have a complaint about that lens you sold me; it doesn't autofocus very well : )
tbarker13
08-02-2008, 08:54
I don't think there's anything there that proves he's running a scam. Certainly there's enough to make a person suspicious, but he could just be someone who doesn't want the hassle of having to meet you.
Regardless, though, I would not be spending that kind of money with a seller who has zero or limited feedback. There are plenty of used M8s out there on the market.
I would never ever pay $4000 to a zero rating. 80% are probably serious sellers but this is high risk. And sincerely, the more you insist (like dollars next to a newspaper), the more he is going to think you are nuts;)
I know it is not your point but how can someone willing to take pictures set so much money on a camera ?:eek::eek:
I'd be afraid to take street pictures in town, any town ...perhaps you like to be anxious about getting stolen !:bang::bang:
izziebears
08-02-2008, 09:43
I would say it is 90% a scam. His ad copy reads like the emails I get from Nigeria promising to make me a millionaire.
Have you only communicated through eBay, or are you now communicating directly through emails from your own ISP or other. What is the ISP or provider for mail for his address. Is it in your town?... or a Yahoo or Gmail address or other web based?
Header information on his emails might allow you to pin down if he's even in your part of the country.
In the sellers answers to questions posed by bidders he claims he couldn't take a photo of the actual sale item as he/she is "in a wheel chair and I have limmited use of my arms".
Good lord.
"I know it is not your point but how can someone willing to take pictures set so much money on a camera ?
I'd be afraid to take street pictures in town, any town ...perhaps you like to be anxious about getting stolen !"
Same here. I suspected a scam, but figured I would flush him out since I'm a local. Looks like that's the case. I figured if I didn't like the M8 I would just sell it again. Yes, I do like the low profile of a R-D1.
He well might not be able to meet me because he says he's in a wheelchair. I offered in that case for him to send it by his courier and I will pay for it COD. No response.
He might worry that I could rip him off. That's why I suggested meeting at the local cop shop reception area.
As for the picture of the cash, he tried to back out of the deal by suggesting that I "was not willing to complete the transaction". After I sent him that picture he never said that again.
It's past the 9 am deadline, so he has tacitly agreed that he does not have such an item, so I have now reported him to RCMP Internet Crimes division.
sienarot
08-02-2008, 11:42
Hey Derrick, you can type faster than I can! BTW, I have a complaint about that lens you sold me; it doesn't autofocus very well : )
Whoops, I guess I shouldn't have dropped the lens on the concrete so hard. I'll try juggling with something lighter next time ;)
I think it takes a lot of nerve to expect anyone to risk any significant amount of $$ unless and until the seller has amassed a decent reputation. I know I didn't offer anything in excess of $60.00 or so until I had my first star (10 transactions); and still didn't expect any really serious money until I got my next star (50 transactions). And I pass over pricey items from sellers with below 50 items (well, I remember winning an expensive item from someone with 49 transactions and 100% feedback). But he got his blue star after his transaction with me, so I figured that was close enough . . .
Was a reserve set? What happens if you win the auction for say, $900?
There was no reserve. Bidding started at $.99. If it was $900 I still would have suggested a face-t-face - after all, why not?
BTW, his last email to me this morning (minor censoring to preserve the PG rating of this forum):
"hay how about you go f*ck yourself and that will be that , i wu=ouldn't sell you sh*t if you had a mouth full of it."
It was sent insid ethe Ebay email service, so Ebay has a copy of it : )
wayne.mills
08-03-2008, 07:46
On the subject of scams - enquiries about a mint 35 'lux ASPHERICAL advertised in an Australian online Trading Post at an extremely attractive price drew this reponse from the vendor who claimed he was located in the UK, viz; "As i said before i want to use a third party agency where both are safe.
I have a contract with such a agency and is really good,is not the first time when I am using it.
This is the agency site:
www.fastlogistic.mzian.com (http://www.fastlogistic.mzian.com/) and go to "How It Works" page,you'll find all the details that you need.
To start the transaction with me you'll have to register on the site at the "Register " page and also let me know your full name and address,I need to know where to send it." ....so... is this a scam?...I wasn't game to find out! :eek:
photomoof
08-03-2008, 08:44
"customer demands to make payment in person in police station? is this common?"
The guy is pretty smart, he took the negative feedback from you, and turned it against you, by giving you positive feedback that makes you look nuts (since sellers can no longer leave negatives). At least I learned how to leave very negative feedback to buyers, and beat the system.
Who knows what the guy is up to. Did you ever get his address and phone number through the eBay contact system?
tbarker13
08-03-2008, 10:30
For your sake, I do indeed hope this guy is a scammer.
I don't think ebay has any sort of requirement to complete a deal face-to-face. Frankly, if I were a seller I'd refuse a face-to-face meeting unless I'd made an agreement before the buyer submitted a bid.
The only thing this guy has actually done (in terms of what you can prove) is to refuse to meet you or your courier.
I'm not saying I wouldn't be wary of him. But because he refused to do business on your terms, he's been reported to the police.
It's past the 9 am deadline ... so I have now reported him to RCMP Internet Crimes division.
Very nice, like this thread overall and it's copy in the RD1 forum.
In dubito pro res - you don't know if the seller is a scammer.
At the high risk of being flamed for this:
The seller was not obligated to meet you, you agreed to a deal and failed to follow through, and in addition reported him to the police. At no point did the seller agree on a personal cash transaction before the auction closed. He lost the money that he paid for the ebay add. Maybe he didn't want to meet you because (a) he couldn't physically, or (b) because of your agressive messages, this thread (chances are he is an RFF member) and your own 97.7% ebay feedback.
Roland.
photomoof
08-03-2008, 16:08
While the seller is NOT in any way obligated to meet a buyer, the seller is required to furnish a phone number in order to resolve a sales issue if possible.
However I agree in this case the only party at fault is the buyer, until proven otherwise. I would however NEVER bid on an auction with a new seller, and no photo.
My guess is it is probably a scam, that is based entirely on the description of the item. I just do not believe he owns and M8.
Sorry, guys, but also the alleged buyer's story sounds more than fishy. Wants to buy a USD 4000 item from a seller with zero feedback, although he claims to have done hundreds of deals on e-bay, come on.........
Then he goes on a mission to "smoke the other guy out", gets USD 4000 in cash , insits on meeting etc, what a bizzare story. Something does not sound right here. :(:(:(
boxerjim
08-03-2008, 18:52
Eric,
if it helps any I bid on that auction up to 700, which is what I was willing to lose on the chance of it being an honest auction. I just joined up here, and the rest of the story is before me. The guy was not above board, the other items he had listed were random high priced items, either he was selling stolen goods or just scamming, I have been on ebay since 1999 and can tell you I have about given up. There are too many crooks on there now. It once was a good place like this appears, to swap gear with like minded people. Now it is commercial, and seedy.
Thus ends my first post.
Jim
at the risk of sounding like a d*ck, i wouldn't meet you either. why would i risk being followed and mugged after i got the money from you? did the seller list 'local pick up' as an option? if not, you have no right to assume they would want to waste their time meeting you. maybe, just maybe, the guy has other things he wants to do with his time. i'm not saying it isn't a scam, but you aren't acting in good faith either.
i can tell you from experience that reporting it to the authorities is a complete waste of time. i won an auction for an m6 with a couple of lenses for $1200 a few weeks ago. i paid via paypal and the seller refused to complete the sale saying he accidentally listed it as a buy it now. ebay suggested i report it to the FBI internet crime division and it would be forwarded to my local police department. i filed the report(thinking it would spook the seller into going through with the sale) and waited to hear from our local police. after a couple of weeks, i finally called them and they said 'you've gotta be kidding. don't waste our time with this kind of crap.'
let it go and find another camera to buy.
my .02.
bob
let it go and find another camera to buy.
couldn't agree more!
its absurb to send $4000 to someone with zero feedback and a stock picture that been mucked around with, or even bid on it all in the first place, unless you are willing to gamble the money, if your willing to gamble that much money you can afford to buy a knew one. on top of that, a frankly unbeleivable suspicious story about being in a wheelchair and as a result cant provide a digital pic of the actual item...sheeze doesnt that ring alarm bells as well...all to convient---anyone that has an M8 surely has a cheaper digital somewhere even if its a camera phone..and if his disability prevented him from taking a simply picture just how was he going to pack and send it.
clearly Eric was suspicious as indicated by his wanting to meet in person ect. but why would you leave it to the end to bring all this up :rolleyes: ...it was clearly suspious so you shoot of a few emails-and see if you like the answers-get his phone number from ebay and ring to see as well.
Bob i would agree that reporting to the police is a waste of time. the procedure we would take here if the item was of reasonable vaule and worth the trouble and/or money is to send a registered letter to the seller stating your postion and then going to courts to make a claim against him. they issue a summons for him to appear in court and the court rules (if he doesnt show the court auto rukes in your favour). in cases such as yours with a seller not going through with the transaction they have ruled that the seller is obligated to complete the transaction...they get stuck with the court costs
I have been e-baying for years, and specialize in camera equipment. I can guarantee that listing was a scam. It has ALL the earmarks of one.....i have flushed out a few of those just like this one.... they are all similar, and very frequently high dollar Leicas.
Oris64 was right to not just send the guy the money, he would have been out his $4000.
paulfitz76
08-05-2008, 20:53
As an ebay seller that's started with low ratings and high dollar items, COD with payment by money order or cashier's check would be more than acceptable than paypal with the fees involved, and it would protect both buyer and seller. I don't think I would meet in person since I would not want to walk around with that amount of cash, so that's reasonable. I would have told you to get a cashier's check and sent it COD, and bought a lot of slide film with the paypal savings :-)
This was a scam. But ebay will probably do nothing.
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.