LCD or no LCD on future Digital RF ?

[yanidel]

I was surprised to see on another thread that there seems to be some supporters of not having LCD on future digital RFF. So is it the fact of a few nostalgics of film camera and what is the thought process for not willing one ?
I personally am 100% for a LCD, a foldable one would be my preference

[Avotius]

Of course you want one, not only would it be foolish not to stick one on there because of the high value brought to many photographic situations, but because not putting one on a digital camera would be like tying someones hand behind their back. Sure film cameras dont have them, but come on, look how many pros, rather then nostalgic peeps use them in real life photo situations. The ability to see your results at once where the difference can be getting the photo and making sure or not really knowing until you get home. That can be the difference of keeping your job and loosing it these days. Not only that but I have been in many situations in far off villages and areas where you have to let people accept you where you are and what you are doing, being able to show the locals what you are doing when you are doing it has unlocked so many new photo opportunities for me when people around you see what you are doing for themselves, often I have been shown to areas and places you just would not see otherwise.

Even though a lot of my work is still film based, I think the LCD screen on the back of the camera is one of the most important tools in my digital photographic kit.

[Roger Hicks]

As I posted in the other thread, just turn the LCD off and don't use it. If you are psychologically unable to do that, it's time to think deeply about why. ;)

I'll second this. It's true that the 'you don't have to use it' argument has brought us far too many overweight, overcomplicated SLRs (both film and digital) with a ridiculous number of buttons, switches, dials, levers, modes and options but dropping the LCD from the M8 wouldn't reduce the size, weight or complication that much, or simplify the camera greatly, and you'd lose the 'Polaroid' facility.

Sometimes I use the screen (record shots, when there's plenty of time; portraits; set up shots generally); sometimes I don't (street, performance, action). I'd hate to be forced into never having the choice.

Edit: as Keith points out below, the 'exposure meter' aspect of the screen can be invaluable too. I have Polaroid backs for the majority of my cameras, including Nikon F (!), but the screen-plus-histogram is better and a lot cheaper to run.

Cheers,

R.

[Keith]

If I'm photographing indoors or in a poor light situation where it's fairly constant I'm always going to want to meter a scene then check a couple of test shots. I keep the review function turned off on my M8 but I still use it regularly during the course of shooting. Personally I wouldn't want a camera without it.

[fdigital]

On my Olympus E-3, and likewise on the Epson R-d1, you can turn the screen around and have it like a film camera. On the e-3 the mechanism is a lot more rugged but I quite like it. It MUST be a solid mechanism though - I hate flimsy crappy swivel screens on cameras.

[infrequent]

please no lame swivel screens.

[Jamie Pillers]

I've posted "no LCD" comments in a number of threads here over the past 6 months or so. My thoughts are founded in two ideas, I think:

1) A lot of us would like to see a low-cost (Bessa range) M-mount, APS-C sensor camera offered. Removing the LCD removes cost (considerable?).

2) Personally I sooooooo much more enjoy the photographic experience I have with my film cameras than with digital gear! I think it this has to do with a number of things. Not knowing if I got the exposure right makes me slow down a bit and think about what I'm doing. Not having images to scroll through frees up my mind to look at the world... not the LCD. And of course, the joy of anticipation, waiting for my negatives to arrive... kind of like Christmas morning. :)

I'm not a professional photographer. I can understand why a professional would like the LCD... their living depends on getting the shots right before leaving the assignment. But for me... give me the simplicity of a D-R3a. :)

[Avotius]

I've posted "no LCD" comments in a number of threads here over the past 6 months or so. My thoughts are founded in two ideas, I think:

1) A lot of us would like to see a low-cost (Bessa range) M-mount, APS-C sensor camera offered. Removing the LCD removes cost (considerable?).

2) Personally I sooooooo much more enjoy the photographic experience I have with my film cameras than with digital gear! I think it this has to do with a number of things. Not knowing if I got the exposure right makes me slow down a bit and think about what I'm doing. Not having images to scroll through frees up my mind to look at the world... not the LCD. And of course, the joy of anticipation, waiting for my negatives to arrive... kind of like Christmas morning. :)

I'm not a professional photographer. I can understand why a professional would like the LCD... their living depends on getting the shots right before leaving the assignment. But for me... give me the simplicity of a D-R3a. :)



1: LCD's are actually really cheap. The cost goes into making what the camera sees show up on them, though now there are plenty of off the shelf systems that work just fine, if they could figure out how to send signal to screen with the old nintendo entertainment system, they can do it on a modern digital camera.


2: Sounds like what you need is a film camera.

[tmfabian]

As I posted in the other thread, just turn the LCD off and don't use it. If you are psychologically unable to do that, it's time to think deeply about why. ;)

Once again, gotta agree with ya....and if they really want the feel of not having an lcd screen they can get one of these little buggers that fit onto it and the lid closes down fairly flush to the camera.
http://www.delkin.com/shop/product.php?productid=289&cat=55&page=2

[Jamie Pillers]

Yes... film camera without the cost of film and without having to wait for the lab to develop the film and without having to reload every 36 shots. :-)

[Jamie Pillers]

Pixel peeping mucks up the experience a bit... at least for me. When I compare how I feel when (a) I'm just walking and looking at the world through the viewfinder, to (b) walking, looking at the world through the viewfinder, and then checking the LCD screen, checking the histogram, etc., ... (a) is fun and relaxing, (b) is less fun and less relaxing and more like work. But, again, I'm not a professional that MUST get the shot right. I actually enjoy getting many of the shots 'wrong'... they lead me in new directions, photographically.

[sojournerphoto]

Shouldn't be looking back on a digital camera. The lcd is useful for checking histograms if nothing else.

Mike

[POINT OF VIEW]

Best of both worlds.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/2253445606_8fc49c9310.jpg?v=0

[Doug]

I might go for a small LCD that shows only the histogram and serves to make camera settings. But otherwise I'm in the "no LCD" camp, using my M8 with the screen turned off, and indeed it doesn't occur to me to look at it after a shot. I'm in film camera mode when shooting... :)

[deepwhite]

I voted for an LCD like the R-D1s.

[Frameline Accuracy] - I'm still having this problem with my R-D1s. The frameline is not very accurate. Sometimes it takes the second shot to get right, and that's with the help of being able to see how wrong the first one is....

[Digital for Work] - I bought the R-D1s to use my Leica M lenses for work. I'm not experienced enough to make sure that I'm getting every shot I want, so I need an LCD to check and make sure.

If it's not for work, I'd be more than happy to just carry my R2A; if it's for work, I want a digital Leica M mount RF with an LCD.

[tmfabian]

Best of both worlds.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/2253445606_8fc49c9310.jpg?v=0

that's a pretty nice case...who makes that one?

[POINT OF VIEW]

that's a pretty nice case...who makes that one?

http://leicatime.com/
He has the finest hand made leather case available in my opinion.
Bill

[hunghang]

I do think that it is commercial suicide if you don't have an LCD on a DRF. Yes, it is technically possible not to have a screen on it, but... why not? The market expects it, and it IS useful.

We could always go to the extreme and just have a whiz-bang large format sensor in a wooden box with a pinhole in it. :)

[Harry S.]

Only if it is small. I have a 3" screen on my canon that is always turned off, except when setting up menus. Being the clean freak that I am it really annoys me putting my face up against the screen and getting finger prints all over it.

I think digital people are spoiled enough with workflow. It wouldnt be all that painful to have a laptop to review your images instead of a screen.

[sojournerphoto]

I'll say it again - it's the (rgb) histogram that's useful

[Avotius]

I think digital people are spoiled enough with workflow. It wouldnt be all that painful to have a laptop to review your images instead of a screen.


hahaha.....try using a H 20 series Phase One back on a shoot then say that again :) No screen means you are tethered to a computer, and in the studio that sucks royal, and outside its even worse, believe me I know, the only thing that kept me from chucking it was the hasselblad it was attached to and the zeiss lenses.....bravissimo!

[mac_wt]

I voted 'no lcd'.

Reasons: size, cost, weight, added complexity.
Every compact digital camera has an LCD. Very few compact digital cameras have a (good) viewfinder (and I don't mean 'Leica-quality', but 'Canonet-quality'). I would prefer an excellent viewfinder over an LCD any time. It actually might be a selling argument. It might be good to stand out of the crowd of nearly identical compact digital cameras on the market today.

[jaapv]

You can always stick duct tape over your LCD...

[Avotius]

You can always stick duct tape over your LCD...

yes or key it until you cant see anything anymore.

[Keith]

You can always stick duct tape over your LCD...


Or just chisel it off! :p

[robbert]

While I do agree there should be a LCD screen on a new digital RF, I do however like the film process, there are numerous of times where I probably would have deleted a 'nice' photograph straight away after shooting it if it would have been shot on digital instead of film. It's probably my inexperience to judge my shots, but when some time passes by (development, scanning etc.) I think about the photographs in a different way.

[tomasis]

my wish may be too extreme. Im just glad that I have Rd1 and analog M cameras so I dont need compromise a lot. Thanks God that digital is not so good as BW film so it is no longer a priority for such feature for me. I think it might be a way to come around as to integrate lcd screen swiwel door on Leica M like rd1 now, very thin of a few milimeters without compromising of the size of analog M. So you get good ergonomic feeling. Ergonomics is one of big reasons for wishing for such feature.

I will get handheld meter soon so I close the LCD down on Rd1 and avoid internal metering. So it will be good exercise tool for improving my skills of M3 :)

I know my way of shooting is very extreme. maybe 1 of only a few tens of millions photographers in the world :) and Im still glad to find some people here who wants no LCD anyway :)

maybe it is stupid post here on internet forum about dinosaur things.

[tmfabian]

all they really need to do is incorporate a drop down shield to block the lcd. Then there's no real added bulk and you can essential disable the screen whenever you want.

[spikey]

or like me get a case from Luigi with a cover ...
I like to be able to review some shots, without having to download them in the computer - not necessarily after every shot!
but each to their own, I like a manual winder (option) mainly just to have a quieter camera - even though the camera is not noisy when you are not holding it close to your face ....

[tomasis]

epson/cosina has done nice job to make the back of the camera completely FLAT no matter which side is shown of the "door" though the body becomes quite large. Also the outer cover has to be quite sturdy if you take the camera outside in the severe conditions. In that case Rd1 does much better with lcd closed down. It annoys me a lot that there are a wheel on M8 which sticks about almost half centimeter outside. Everyone held camera in some different ways so the placement of wheel might not be ideal for everyone.

Anyway, I think that future technology promises a lot for better compromises of the layout of the body. I always liked minimalist design of analog leica cameras so I hope they could improve the design further.

For me, cameras with LCD are still "fragile" and I have to handle those cameras with care. It is not the same way I could abuse M3 and I really want feel vulcanite when I held camera on both sides. Not something plastic, uneven, slippery, sticking out parts etc. Imagine how I became annoyed when I hold Rd1 when the finger almost slips out way from lcd screen covered with slippery lcd protector or accidentally push some buttons :)

I wrote before that we dont really chimp very often when sensors improves and contains much more DR, ten times more than today. We are able live with films before so we can do now in the same way or did we became already spoiled brats who care to pixelpeep, have AF on M8? I talked about two digital versions of M7 and MP. so I didnt mean that future M8 has to lose LCD but just add another model to complete the program after 10-20 years or something like that.

Leica is the only company who can make most "ridiculous moves". Thats why I have some little hopes there. Of course Canon and Nikon shooters consider me as a silly person as well.

[c.poulton]

I've posted "no LCD" comments in a number of threads here over the past 6 months or so. My thoughts are founded in two ideas, I think:

1) A lot of us would like to see a low-cost (Bessa range) M-mount, APS-C sensor camera offered. Removing the LCD removes cost (considerable?).

2) Personally I sooooooo much more enjoy the photographic experience I have with my film cameras than with digital gear! I think it this has to do with a number of things. Not knowing if I got the exposure right makes me slow down a bit and think about what I'm doing. Not having images to scroll through frees up my mind to look at the world... not the LCD. And of course, the joy of anticipation, waiting for my negatives to arrive... kind of like Christmas morning. :)

I'm not a professional photographer. I can understand why a professional would like the LCD... their living depends on getting the shots right before leaving the assignment. But for me... give me the simplicity of a D-R3a. :)

My sentiments exactly! Also:
Surely by not having an LCD the bulk and weight of the camera will be reduced? (One of the things that I dislike about the M8 is the slightly larger depth of the body compared with the M7.)

[c.poulton]

I'll say it again - it's the (rgb) histogram that's useful

Would this still be useful if I shoot exclusively B+W?

[georgef]

I think not having an LCD is handicapping the camera. I have my RD1's LCD turned inward all the time, and only use it when I sit back to review, or need to see the exposure on a very tricky photo, maybe one out of 50 photos; but I would rather have it than not.
also, if the argument is to simplify things, an LCD menu can take out many buttons off the body, so in that respect, it makes sense, I think. The M8, even though not at the toip end of my list of ergonomic cameras, has a very clean button setup.

Plus, form a marketing point of view, an LCD-less M9 will be the last LEICA made.

[mountainrivera]

While we are at it let's also remove the sensor and replace it with the ability to use 35 mm film.

[Frankie]

LCD screen without "live view" camera support is only useful in:

Setting the camera; and
Examining the images after the fact.To "catch the moment" is best accomplished by gluing your eye on the viewfinder and keep shooting..."no film/processing cost" is cheap.

To ensure good exposure is best accomplished by bracketing...don't worry about "no film/processing cost".

Since this is Rangefinderforum, I presume everyone had accepted that tight framing is not in the shooting protocol.

"To be overly concerned about setting a perfect exposure is a neurosis many people never overcome." (The Photography Catalog on the Leica M4, edited by Norman Snyder, 1976)

Therefore, the best solution is somehow modify an iPod with a mini-USB plug-in to read the camera memory chip (as if its own)...or even copy the contents over; review the pictures, do the RGB bit...after the action.

An iPod screen is much larger, with far better resolution, and iPod can support many more GB...kind of an image vault in your pocket.

How about it, Mr. Jobs? There is much money to be made in this.

[aizan]

Would this still be useful if I shoot exclusively B+W?

of course, unless the sensor is monochrome.

[Artichoke]

you wouldn't have to look at it of course, but it could come in handy:)