View Full Version : Diafine ?
I've been wondering about this 'magic' 2 bath film developer since I read its review in Davidde Stella's site.
http://www.davidde.com/articles/diafine.html
Do you have some experiences with it ?
For what I've read, you must expose your film according to the EI that 'works' for Diafine with that film, but the fact of having such a wide temperature range seems interesting enough...
Anyway there's probably no way of getting it here, and with today's regulations that product can't be shipped overseas, so I'll probably go for Rodinal at €3,80 for 500ml, not bad and easily available.
Of course plus tank, stop bath, fixer and etc...
That will be in the summer, I hope, I'm not really good doing numbers, but on my last pushed HP5+ they charged me near €5 for developing (no prints), so I may go cheaper doing the developing myself... if I manage to do it without ruining anything, that is...
Oscar
back alley
05-25-2004, 07:08
go for it oscar!
practice with a dummy roll - loading the film onto the reel. that's the hardest part of developing your own film.
first practice with the light on and watch what you're doing. then try it in the dark. work slowly and stay the course and you will be fine.
joe
Oscar, after being ripped off AU$17 (c.a. US$11) for pull processing of Delta 3200 at 1600 not including printing, now I'm thinking of developing B&W film myself too!
What I need is pretty much developing tank & reel, few jars, metering jug, the chemicals and thermometer right? I can leave film leader out all when rewinding so no need to pry open the film cassete.
Now how do you guys control the temperature of the chemicals? Also, where do you guys do the developing? I don't want to do it in the bathroom because I don't want to get chemicals splashed onto my toothbrush (good if i see it, if not...oops). Using the sink in the kitchen also pose the same risk...splashing the chemicals onto cutlery or dishes without realising it can be pretty dangerous.
oftheherd
05-25-2004, 12:01
It doesn't take much care not to splash chemicals onto cutlery or dishes (or toothbrushes), if you are leaving them exposed. I have usually put a deep enough tray in the sink, and left the tank in that for temperature control. Of course, the chemicals were heated (or cooled) first. Temperature control is important, but not as critical in b/w as in color negatives or slides. Tapping was done against the bottom of the sink, and agitation was with the top aimed into the bottom of the sink. Seemed to work pretty well. I have also used one of those rubber trays with a raised end for some of the chemical containers, with the low end draining into the sink. All seemed to work pretty well.
You can for sure leave out the leader, but if not, the old beer/soda can openers will get you into your canister if need be. If using reloadables, you can just snap them open with your hands.
Oscar,
I've heard that Adorama will mail Diafine. (http://www.adorama.com/CHDQ.html)
Having used them both, I believe that Barry Thornton's 'DiLuxol Vitesse' is similar, but his developers are not available at the moment, following his death last year.
Best,
Helen
Thanx everybody, yes Joe, now I'm pretty sure I'll go for it, but should have to wait until classes are gone and I have free evenings again...
Kris, a friend of mine is based in New Zealand and told me the price for Delta100 processing + contact sheet was more than NZ$30 !
Thanx also for the link Helen ! Neither keh nor b&h were mailing it. Anyway as I'm completely new to this, I'll start with what I can find easily here. BTW shooting with removable take-up spools has some advantadges, like being really easy to leave the film leader out :)
I'll take a 'googlelook' for DiLuxol too, just curiosity.
Best !
Oscar
Leaving the film leader out is convenient, but there are a couple of problems to watch for. First, you can confuse a used roll with a fresh roll, as both have leaders sticking out! I got into the habit of tearing off about half the exposed leader as a sign that roll had been shot. Some people write info on the leader about the subject, date/time, developing instructions, etc. Then when you see a roll with scribblings on the leader, that's a good sign it's been exposed.
The other problem is just the possibility that there might be some gritty particles stuck in the fuzzy light seal of the cassette... this could scratch the film as it makes yet another (third) journey rubbing on this seal. The less the film is exposed to the danger of scratching, the better.
For some reason, my practice has been to tear leaders. AND later pop the cassette open to extract the film.
I haven't developed film myself for a few years, but Diafine was one of my favorites. I liked that it lasts almost forever in use, and is so insensitive to time and temperature. It's sitll important though to have all baths at about the same temp so as not to "shock" the film! The worst would be to subject the film at some point to a much warmer bath, this often resulting in reticulation.
There's lots of info about Diafine on the 'net, but briefly... The film emulsion soaks up developing agent in part A, during which no developing action takes place. Agitation and time are of virtually no importance, and you just have to give it enough time for all the developing agent to soak in that's going to.
I like to try to reduce the amount of part A that gets into part B, so I take the time here to let the film drain thoroughly.
The part B contains the activator, triggering the start of development. Of course the only developer present is soaked into the emulsion, so you can't overdevelop. The developing action tends to be localized, and you can mess that up by over agitation. Just a little gentle agitation, widely spaced times, to flush away some of the development byproducts. This is where I made mistakes and got too vigorous with the agitation, and ended up with thin negs.
So, localized, the development action proceeds quickly to exhaustion in the heavily-exposed parts of the neg, then runs out of juice to continue. This keeps the highlights from getting blocked up (if exposure was correct). In the shadow (thin) areas of the neg, the developer is not exhaused quickly, and continues working away for quite a while, boosting shadow density and detail.
Again, time and temp are not critical, as the activated developer is largely self-regulating. Agitation is important though, and should be kept minimal. No big hurry in pouring in parts A and B, or in pouring them out, so things can be a bit less hectic. Less clock watching, and less hurrying!
As a consequence of the way Diafine works, there is no push or pull processing possible; all you can do is optimize your exposures for the various lighting conditions.
I'm lazy, and live in Florida where it's damn near impossible to get the house 68^F in the summer months (it was 80^F when I woke up at 4AM this morning!). Diafine is a Godsend, as it's relatively insensitive to temp and duration (i use 5 minutes instead of 3, but that's just me). It is somewhat sensitive to agitation though, so follow the instructions on the box.
It's also convenient to mix and match films, so I can develop Tri-X, FP4+, and HP5+ in the same batch and not worry about it.
The most interesting thing to note is that it's a compensating developer, and can go a long way toward taming contrast in high-contrast scenes. (See below for a shot of a white dog in a patch of sun at 4PM on a Florida summer, with full shade behind her. I'm not an expert scanner yet, but contrast was controlled nicely.)
Final point: it seems to work best with "older" emulsions. I like its performance with FP4+ (at EI 250) better than I like it with Acros and TMX; and Tri-X shot at 1250 is simply wonderful.
Barry Thornton mentions a technique for pushing with two-bath developers that would be applicable to Diafine - though I'm not sure that I could ever be bothered with it. However... I did do a similar thing recently when I developed some films in a speed-decreasing developer instead of Diafine (I was trying to do too many films at once: too many identical loaded tanks on the bench). Instead of fixing, I washed the film then developed it a second time in Diafine to get the speed I required.
You develop normally with A and B, then thoroughly wash the film and re-develop in A then B. This can be repeated a third time. It is critical that the intermediate wash is thorough, because otherwise you will contaminate Bath A with Bath B.
Best,
Helen
oftheherd
07-21-2004, 12:02
The folks here, http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID2025592P3141720-Darkroom-Supplies/Diafine-2-Bath-Film-Developer.aspx claim to ship internationally, but may not. They have contact info at http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID2025592-Contact.aspx.
Adorama (http://www.adorama.com/CHDG.html) ship Diafine internationally, they have it in stock and they are cheaper!
I too is planning to do my own developing at home with Diafine. There is no shop in Singapore that stock Diafine since the 80s. Hence I would have to buy from Adorama. The price of developing and contact printing is about USD 5.00 in Singapore but there is nothing like the joy of darkroom work. Some of my friends think otherwise as quality control is an issue. Singapore can be dusty during the dry season and there is no anger like ruining a good roll of shots! :p
Yep, but while Adorama ships only UPS, the other one uses the cheaper and good ol' USPS which makes shipping charges a lot more interesting. However, sometimes I wish their Airmail Parcels were as fast as their Lance Armstrong ! :) Must be hard to cross the ocean on a bicycle though :p
@dzeanah, the amount of detail you've keep into both shadow and highlight areas on that negative is amazing !
Dzeanah, great example of ability to keep detail in the highlights and shadow!
Helen, that's a fascinating idea, going through the A&B one or two more cycles. I'd really like to see what that ends up looking like!
I used to do something a bit opposite of that sometimes; dilute the A bath 1:1 and drop the EI down to the box-rated ISO. I'd have to research my files to recall just why, and the results...
Ok ! Done, I've just ordered a couple packets of Diafine. According to the envelope they give one gallon each (around 3,5 liters) so that should last for some time :)
Hope I won't mess it up :p, now I only need the tank (Paterson 4-system seems to be a good choice), Fixer, Foto-flo, a measuring jar (from the all-at-1-euro store probably) and a couple bottles...
I'll keep you posted, I don't really know how my new adventure is going to end :rolleyes:
FNAC is your friend for Photo supplies!
Good luck, and have fun. Please post some pictures of the Diafine negatives. I can't find it locally and will have to go through a web-delivery too.
Will do Jeff, thanks for the encouragement !!
In fact around the main FNAC in Barcelona you can find 2 or 3 big photo stores carrying lots of photo supplies, however, I'll try to get as much as I can used from the internet, and the rest from the local stores.
Have you used Diafine before ?
Oscar, great! I only got a 1 quart kit. And over the weekend I cleared 20 years of junk out of the darkroom, washed it down, cleaned all the tanks, reels, etc... And souped 6 rolls of film that had accumulated. Delta 3200 (120 from Bronica RF), Tri-X, FP4+, Pan-F (all from Olympus Pen F), and Verichrome Pan (110 from tiny Pentax). Now I need to figure out how to use my film scanner.
The negs all look pretty good, maybe with the exception of the Delta 3200 which looks thin. There is shadow detail, though, so the exposures at EI 1600 could have been ok. Maybe not enough Diafine could be absorbed into the emulsion...
And in rooting around in the darkroom, I found an unopened Ilford development kit for XP1 film. I still have a few rolls of that in the fridge, and one waiting for processing. And I wonder how that kit would work with XP2...
back alley
08-09-2004, 20:16
sounds like some 'sperimentin' about to happen...
joe
Summer is natural time for 'sperimentin' :D
Well a paterson system-4 is on its way here now. My question now is about preparing Diafine itself.
Is there any recommendation to completely disolve all the contents of the packet at once or is it better to prepare only the amount you need and leave the rest in powder on the packet? Any significant advantadge? Does it age better in liquid/powder shape ?
About the bottles to store it, may I simply use plastic bottles made opaque with a layer of black tape ?
I guess this won't be my last question about it, so thanks for your help and patience ! :)
back alley
08-11-2004, 06:00
i can't say for sure about the diafine but any powdered chemical i've used in the past said to dissolve the whole package at once. i believe it's to ensure (sp?) that all of the mix is included which can't happen if you only dissolve a part of the pack.
joe
Todd.Hanz
08-11-2004, 06:10
I have brown 1 gal jugs that I mix up D76 in and keep them under the cabinet. I am not sure about Diafine but I mix the whole envelope at once.
Todd
Joe, Todd, thanks. My first souped film would be probably HP5+ (my current stock in the fridge). Next I may give a try to FP4, as Diafine 'pushes' it to EI250 and that looks like a good all-around film speed.
Must try the legendary Tri-X also !
Todd.Hanz
08-11-2004, 17:38
taffer,
if you have not been here yet (or run into this guy on any of the other forums) you should check out his site, he uses Diafine for everything and has alot of info and a great gallery: http://grantheffernan.com/
Todd
Oscar, always a smart idea to use an entire packet of a prepared chemical mix at one time. There are different powders in there, some of them are finer or coarser, lighter or heavier than others, and so the distribution of these different powders is likely to be uneven in the packet. Using only part of the packet could lead to an incorrect solution.
This would not be true for single-chemical powders like sodium sulfite, for instance, which can be used in whatever quantity you wish.
Doug, Todd, thanx again! I had been in that site before Todd, some great work there, definitely bookmarked !
wlewisiii
08-14-2004, 07:17
I'm getting my home darkroom setup finally and have been considering using Diafine due to the lack of time/temp sensitivity (We have a 2 1/2 year old who has decided it's time to remind us about the "terrible twos") Anyone have recommendations for the other chemicals? Which fixer, hardener, etc works best for you? I shoot mainly 400Tmax right now in 35 and 120, but am open to other films.
Thanks!
William
William, I keep it really simple. I only stock two developers: Rodinal and HC-110.
Both have 'forever' shelf life and both are extremely versatile. I use dilution H with HC-110 1:64 to get easily controlled times. I usually use Rodinal at 1:50 but will ocassionally use 1:100. Both have longish temperature operating ranges. HC-110 is similar to D76 and is good for pusing film and also takes a little edge off the grain. Rodinal is better as a pull developer and gives you max grain, but also max sharpness. Tri-X/Rodinal is a very beautiful combo.
The only other chemical I use is Kodak Fixer (the dried package you mix up into a gallon's -- i.e. 3.8L -- worth). It has good keeping qualities and one package can fix up to 100 rolls of 36 exp film.
I don't use stop bath or hypo clearing agents (not needed for film). Just water.
Oh, and a small bottle of Photoflo to mix a dilute mixture to dip the film in just before hanging to dry.
Everyone's got a different set of recipes and likes/dislikes. It's part of what makes B&W film processing so interesting.
But after much experimenting with film/dev combos in my early days of photography, I decided years ago to keep things simple and mainstream. Both of these developers are easily obtainable nearly everywhere.
Gene
Nosing through the cabinet in my darkroom, undisturbed for many years, it's interesting to come across jugs of this and that, reminding me of my previous workflow. Some of these bear handy grease-pencil notations about usage.
Nacco Nufix fixer 1 gal unopened container with a separate hardener bottle, also about 1/2 gal of diluted mix for use (marked "film"), and a small bottle of Hypo Check that confirms the old mixed fixer is still good.
Also a gallon bottle with Hypo Clearing Agent marked with grease pencil "for film", so I figured this stuff would shorten wash times. Interestingly, this mix also includes Selenium Toner. I recall this as another aid to archival stability.
I like liquid concentrate chemicals better than powders. Easier to deal with I think, and I've often had trouble getting the powders to dissolve right away. Hot water helps, but containes more air to start the mix oxidizing, and then you have hot mix to cool down. Often there's one powder component that's particularly reluctant to dissolve, and gets trapped in my filter. I was reminded of this the other day in preparing some Diafine from powder. Best to mix it up a day or two ahead of time I think, to give the powders plenty of time to dissolve fully.
Good point about individual recipes, Gene!
digitalox
09-05-2004, 22:39
Not sure if they ship internationally, but this site http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=5558 also has diafine.
Free Style Photo does international shipping and I find their pricing rather reasonable. :)
All my chemicals are already mixed (it was like being in the high school chemistry lab :)) and ready but my system-4 developing tank doesn't arrive :bang:
Worst part is I'm SURE it will be here the same day I'll go home with a new one from the store :)
back alley
09-06-2004, 07:18
just buy a different size if you get one from a local store.
i have about 3 sizes ranging from very small for a roll or 2 to a really big one that handles quite a few rolls at once.
if i would have thought i could have sent you one as i have a few, some were given to me also, some from yard sales etc.
joe
Dont' worry Joe, and thanks for your generous offer ! :D
I think another of 'my' stores carries a small 1 roll tank called 'AP Minitank' (original eh?) which may be useful as well. It's also pretty cheap so I may give it a chance.
That store (fotoprix) doesn't close at lunch time so I may pay them a visit tomorrow after leaving from job and get home with it.
The Paterson will take 2 35mm rolls if needed or maybe 1 120 :)
Now the question is... to squeegee or not to sqeegee ? ;)
back alley
09-06-2004, 09:51
i was never comfortable with sqeegeeing (is that a word?).
i bought a rubber bladed thing and also used my wet fingers and i don't remember scratching my film but i was always too worried that i would.
a good rinse plus photo flo (or whatever) does the job ok.
and a one roll tank is great for those days when you really want to see the results from a one roll shoot.
joe
I've never used a squeegee, but years ago you could purchase photo sponges that were free from any dyes and were very soft. I still have them and after doing the photoflo thing and hanging my film, I then soak my two sponges in the photoflo and squeeze them slightly, but not totally dry. I then very very gently with very light pressure pull the sponges down the strip, which removes most of the excess moisture from the film.
Been doing that for some 30 yrs now and to the best of my knowledge have never scratched my film. I've tried photoflo by itself with no squeegeeing and have had a few occasions when it left a spot or two on the negs. Never had any spots when I squeegeed with my sponges.
Gene
Thanks for the advice Joe & Gene ! I bought a squeegee last week so I'll give that a try. Just to try each way so I have different options to keep the one that works ok for me :)
digitalox
09-06-2004, 18:17
I'm a Pro-Squeegeer (is *that* a word?!?) myself. I noticed some wet spots on occassion even with the photoflo, so i started squeegeeing. I got a pretty nice little squeegee at the local store, it doesn't scratch the negs. I'm going to order some of this diafine and try it too.
hoppinghippos
09-06-2004, 18:28
I tried squegee once, and it scratched my neg, after that it's just the good ol' 2 fingers.
btw I was surfing, and apparently adorama sells diafine much cheaper but they don't have stocks.
HP5+ !!!
that's it ! My first Diafine processed roll is already hanging in the shower.
I bought the tank this morning,and practiced processing my dummy roll after lunch. Came out nicely black ;) but gave me some more practice about loading chemicals, etc.
No film changing bag finally, the bathroom is completely black at night with all home lights off. I had an HP5 roll I took of my 'collection' reserved for this moment, and comes in handy (if you mess it up, you can always repeat those shots).
Well I suppose I'll be able to scan something tonight :)
To all of you hesitating about trying this, just like Rover and others said some months ago, DO IT !!! :D
Oscar
Here it is, the frame #1, my very own (and much beloved) Black Pearl !
HP5+, 1/8 at f/8. Minolta SRT w/50-1.7. Souped in Diafine for 3+? - 3+? mins :)
Edit: and... THANKS SO MUCH everybody who gave me help and advice about this, as well as those ones who 'pushed' me to do it ! :D
Congratulations, Oscar, you did it!!
Nice looking results too. Beautiful camera, but what's a Black Pearl??
Gene
Hurray! You have done it! Nice one too! :)
Thanks Gene !! One thing is for sure, b&w processing IS fun ! :D
Black Pearl ? The name of the pirate ghost ship in 'Pirates of the Caribbean', and only another nickname to this black Kiev. Her ex-owner still calls her 'black beauty' or 'femme fatale' ;)
Originally posted by Peter
Hurray! You have done it! Nice one too! :)
Thankx Peter !!! :D Did you already had some of that Tri-X developed ?
Not yet but soon as I am in the midst of some heavy work commitment at the moment. :(
back alley
09-07-2004, 16:33
good work oscar!
glad you like it - now you can add another addiction to the list!!
joe
Photo looks very good, Oscar! Now, how do you like Diafine? Was it as easy as we said? :-)
Originally posted by Doug
Photo looks very good, Oscar! Now, how do you like Diafine? Was it as easy as we said? :-)
Doug, indeed... it is! Opening the film cartdridge and loading the film reel is a lot easier than I thought (I've been told it's not THAT easy with 120 film though). I didn't pay too much attention to time but got sure myself it was souped in each bath for at least the 3 necessary minutes (it was around 5 probably).
'Amateur' agitation, the tank leaked a bit, but nothing serious.
After the second bath, I gave it a plain water wash for about 30 seconds, probably that water was a bit cooler than chemicals. Then, around 5 minutes fix. I took the reel out and couldn't see any 'milkyness' so I guessed it was fixed ok. Again rinse with plain water. Then a final bath in photo-flo and the squeegee thing.
After that, put them to dry hanging in the shower and cut frame 1 to scan, I've cut the rest this morning.
What surprised me is the almost non-existant chemical odour, I was expecting it to be a lot worse.
According to datasheets, HP5 should be exposed at 800 for optimal results with diafine, and only after taking this roll I realized I was overexposing it, but was a perfect 'test' roll for my first processing.
Originally posted by taffer
Then, around 5 minutes fix. I took the reel out and couldn't see any 'milkyness' so I guessed it was fixed ok. Again rinse with plain water. Then a final bath in photo-flo and the squeegee thing. I'm glad you found it easier than expected! Loading the film on the stainless steel reel can be difficult; indeed it can work smoothly, and then mysteriously balky another time. 120 film can be awkward because the larger film is just floppier. The little Instamatic 110 film is often a pain to load because the 16mm reel has the guide spiral only on one side (just spokes on the other).
In any case, there's a rather unintuitive trick that helps: Instead of pulling the film tight as you rotate the reel, at each rotation push the film badkwards a little so that it's loose in the spiral track. And be alert to a kind of crackling noise that signals the film has jumped the rails! I run my finger gently along the film on the reel to feel for any irregularity that would indicate a tracking problem. After some experience you get a sense of what feels and sounds normal.
It would be best for the temperatures to be nearly the same for all baths, to avoid "shock" to the film while it's wet.
One question arises, though, about your wash cycle after fixing... you mentioned just a rinse. It's important to thoroughly wash all that fixer out of the film before drying. Maybe even start with a "hypo clearing agent" which is a fixer-neutralizer, and then washing can be done quicker.
Glad you're having fun! :-)
digitalox
09-09-2004, 10:38
Todd, or anyone here in Houston know where I might some Diafine locally? I've tried Houston Camera Exchange and Camera Co-Op but they say they don't have any, I don't even think they knew what I was talking about.
Thanks,
Scott
Originally posted by Doug
I'm glad you found it easier than expected! Loading the film on the stainless steel reel can be difficult; indeed it can work smoothly, and then mysteriously balky another time. 120 film can be awkward because the larger film is just floppier. The little Instamatic 110 film is often a pain to load because the 16mm reel has the guide spiral only on one side (just spokes on the other).
In any case, there's a rather unintuitive trick that helps: Instead of pulling the film tight as you rotate the reel, at each rotation push the film badkwards a little so that it's loose in the spiral track. And be alert to a kind of crackling noise that signals the film has jumped the rails! I run my finger gently along the film on the reel to feel for any irregularity that would indicate a tracking problem. After some experience you get a sense of what feels and sounds normal.
It would be best for the temperatures to be nearly the same for all baths, to avoid "shock" to the film while it's wet.
One question arises, though, about your wash cycle after fixing... you mentioned just a rinse. It's important to thoroughly wash all that fixer out of the film before drying. Maybe even start with a "hypo clearing agent" which is a fixer-neutralizer, and then washing can be done quicker.
Glad you're having fun! :-)
Again thanks a lot for all your help Doug ! :)
The reels on the AP tank are plastic, pretty much identical to that ones on the Paterson System 4 (saw some photos) that must be visiting China at this time :(
When loading the reel, I paused also to gently pass my finger along the loaded film to check for irregularities, seems it was a good idea.
As for chemicals, now I have a 5 liter water can filled so the stop/wash it's also at room temperature. About fixer, I gave it a pretty consistent wash/rinse after it as read somewhere that it's one of the strongest chemicals. So then Hypo clearing is recommended in the intermediate wash between fixer and the last bath with wetting agent ?
My current active roll is XP2 but the next one will be Neopan 400 (recommended at 640 for Diafine), so, let's see how that one turns out !!
Oscar
SolaresLarrave
09-09-2004, 19:02
Congratulations on your chemical feat, Oscar! I'm really green with envy!
Now... I must start doing my homework. Doing my own developing will take a bit longer; I must get tenure first! :(
But I'm really glad we're seeing a lot of people grow photographically. It only shows how very nurturing this crowd really is!! :)
back alley
09-09-2004, 21:03
we are a lovely bunch...
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