View Full Version : Automatic or manual winder on next digital RF?
When the next digital RF comes out, whenever it does, would you prefer it to have manual winder or automatic? Or indeed would which would you choose if it becomes an option?
ClaremontPhoto
07-19-2008, 07:08
What does the winder do in a digital camera?
urban_alchemist
07-19-2008, 07:08
I'd prefer to have an overridable manual winder.
Basically, in normal use, you wind on to move to the next exposure, but can shoot repeatedly on a single 'frame' for multiple exposures.
If you want though, you can select 'continuous' and just shoot without needing to 'wind'.
But that's just me (love the fact that my XPanII and Hasselblad/Holga allows me to do multiple exposures)...
A manual winder would cock the shutter, saving battery and space in doing so.
Well I'm not sure about the space though, I don't have the knowledge to judge that.
mackigator
07-19-2008, 12:20
Do you mean a wind lever (ala RD-1) or just some kind of a switch to fire and not reset the shutter?
If it's the former, I'm surprised that this is much of a debate, though I came to film from digital. Winding on my film cameras is fine by me, and I don't need high fps shooting or anything like that. But as winders are necessary functions having to physically move the film in the camera - and on a digi there is no film - it seems natural that pressing a button fires and recocks the shutter on a digi. So no manual winder for me (in the same category as the M8 bottom plate - get out of my way and let me work).
I have a M6 classic and M8 and would like the M8 to have a manual winder and match the M6's size.
capitalK
07-20-2008, 07:38
I'm torn. I like the idea of the manual winder but after years of shooting digital I often miss shots on my film RF's because I forget to wind.
What is there to wind on a digital camera?
Why have a winder?
I dont get it...
You need to cock the shutter.
I believe that the current M8's shutter is cocked by an electric motor. Doing this manually would save the weight and space of the motor. Maybe i am wrong? If this is not the way the M8 works, can someone please correct me and explain how this is done?
victoriapio
07-20-2008, 09:35
You need to cock the shutter.
I believe that the current M8's shutter is cocked by an electric motor. Doing this manually would save the weight and space of the motor. Maybe i am wrong? If this is not the way the M8 works, can someone please correct me and explain how this is done?
Correct. The M8 shutter is plenty quiet but the motor to cock the shutter is clunky and much louder than the shutter. (Which leads me to the question, why upgrade to a quieter shutter when the recocking motor is much louder than the current shutter? But this is a question for another forum :D)
Having owned an R-D1s and an M8, I much prefer the quiet shutter and manual recocking of the R-D1s IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS when noise is a concern - like my wife's choir concerts, in recording studios, etc). Other wise an automatic shutter cocking motor and "continuous" firing mode is fine in conditions where noise is not an issue or there is a need for high speed shooting.
So the next generation DRF should - imho - have an automatic shutter cocking motor that can be turned off and a manual winding lever included ala the R-D1s.
Also, a card holder and battery holder that can be changed WITHOUT taking the damn bottom plate off - that is absolutely the worst ergonomical feature of the M8 and needs to be dumped for the next model. :( We all understand this design for changing film but for digital? - a total waste that ties back to a film tradition that actually slows down shooting in the digital era.
O.C.
I quite agree with all of the above. I would prefer a manual winder. If I wanted to rapid fire all the time, I'd buy a DSLR again.
hunghang
07-21-2008, 02:43
Manual, if the mechanical winding action actually saves battery power (or even regenerates the battery!)
I assume that the top battery eaters on the M8 are the display and the winder. I'd would save a lot of battery I'm sure.
Definitely a manual winder. The secret to the success of the M series is not complexity, but beautifully engineered, small and discreet cameras which are simple to use. A manual winder might allow the M9 to be smaller than the M8 and certainly quieter - particularly since the operator decides when to wind on.
Personally, I also love the feel of a well-engineered manual winder (or shutter-cocking system in this digital case).
It will not happen. The RD1 has a manual shutter recock because it was an el-cheapo way to fit a sensor into an existing body. The number of people who would buy a manual camera is a magnitude smaller than the number of people who would not buy it for that reason.So it would need a dual system - quite a difficult engineering problem if one looks at shutter designs, which would take up (too) much space.
sepiareverb
07-21-2008, 04:39
It will not happen. The RD1 has a manual shutter recock because it was an el-cheapo way to fit a sensor into an existing body. The number of people who would buy a manual camera is a magnitude smaller than the number of people who would not buy it for that reason.So it would need a dual system - quite a difficult engineering problem if one looks at shutter designs, which would take up (too) much space.
Thus far in the poll, it is 2/3 in favor of manual wind. A better majority than any recent US election :D Why not manual shutter cocking? Simple, effective, quiet. RF cameras are prized for their lenses and their quiet operation- why abandon half of this? Because an SLR is completely motor driven? When I test drove the M8 what was the first thing I thought of? How much quieter the camera would be if there was manual shutter cocking- and I was working in the woods- no people to sneak up on.
Definitely automatic. As a former owner of an R-D1 before the M8, the one almost palpable burden that I was released from with the M8 was forgetting to wind on. I can't tell you the number of shots I missed because I had forgotten to wind on with the R-D1. If you are desperate for a manual wind get an R-D1 and fine camera that it is you'll soon find yourself yearning for a M8.
LouisB
Well, I think we can conclude, that if Leica wants to keep selling cameras, they've got to move more to digital with the R and M series. Perhaps in the future there will be a choice of what kind of digital rangefinder you want, e.g. choose M9 or MP-D. Perhaps even "a la carte" digital rangefinders, which would let you choose manual or automatic winder etc.
c.poulton
07-21-2008, 05:29
Definitely automatic. As a former owner of an R-D1 before the M8, the one almost palpable burden that I was released from with the M8 was forgetting to wind on. I can't tell you the number of shots I missed because I had forgotten to wind on with the R-D1. If you are desperate for a manual wind get an R-D1 and fine camera that it is you'll soon find yourself yearning for a M8.
LouisB
A couple of people have said the same thing. I don't really get it - with me it's instinctive, an automatic reflex movement rather like blinking, after I've taken a shot I wind on without even having to think about it - sometimes I don't want to and have to actively think about it not winding on.
There is also something very satisfying about the action of winding on - the final completion point of having captured a photograph...
Thus far in the poll, it is 2/3 in favor of manual wind. A better majority than any recent US election :D Why not manual shutter cocking? Simple, effective, quiet. RF cameras are prized for their lenses and their quiet operation- why abandon half of this? Because an SLR is completely motor driven? When I test drove the M8 what was the first thing I thought of? How much quieter the camera would be if there was manual shutter cocking- and I was working in the woods- no people to sneak up on.
With one faction calling for the return of the rewind lever and another for autofocus, I'm sure the wastepaper baskets in Solms are filling up...;)
SteveM(PA)
07-21-2008, 06:38
You should be able to order it one way or the other. I decide when my shutter gets cocked. I can't imagine doing it (or it being done by itself) right after I shot the person next to me :)
When the next digital RF comes out
uh huh....
gfspencer
07-21-2008, 14:13
I'm torn. I like the idea of the manual winder but after years of shooting digital I often miss shots on my film RF's because I forget to wind.
I often forget to wind when I'm using my M6. :o
sepiareverb
07-21-2008, 14:34
I forget to zip my fly from time to time as well, we all forget things. Something that would make the camera quieter and less battery dependent would be great.
POINT OF VIEW
07-21-2008, 14:36
In another M8 thread a member suggested a manual frame advance lever, that would energize a generator, that could eliminate the battery. That sounds way cool to me. The technology is about 15 years old. It can be found in battery - less digital locks.
Tuolumne
07-21-2008, 15:35
I love my RD-1. I never forget to wind any camera. I vote for manual wind. It's just soooo satisfying.
/T
In another M8 thread a member suggested a manual frame advance lever, that would energize a generator, that could eliminate the battery. That sounds way cool to me. The technology is about 15 years old. It can be found in battery - less digital locks.
I doubt whether this is realistic. The amount of energy you can produce with the winder, is not nearly enough to run the display, processor etc. Also, you can not "eliminate the battery", you would merely ADD an electro magnet to charge the battery, which would take up even more space.
dazedgonebye
07-21-2008, 19:42
I doubt whether this is realistic. The amount of energy you can produce with the winder, is not nearly enough to run the display, processor etc. Also, you can not "eliminate the battery", you would merely ADD an electro magnet to charge the battery, which would take up even more space.
Well see, you'd have to put a clutch on the thing so you could crank it without cocking the shutter. That way you could charge the batteries by winding repeatedly.
Heck, maybe you could just put a crank on it that looks like the attached.
:angel: :D
I think I'd like the option of delaying the shutter cocking, if the noise would be intrusive at the time of releasing the shutter. Obviously, manual shutter cocking can be done at a time of one's choosing, but a motorized cocking could be delayed too if there were a mode for that.
ZlatkoBatistich
07-21-2008, 22:08
Manual winding is the way to go. Manual winding makes the photographer think and hence the photographs better. A simple manual crank is too easy, however, and only encourages hasty photography. Make it so that it has to be attached before each frame and then detached after each frame. Sort of like starting a biplane from the 1920's -- you don't leave the crank on when in flight. The crank can be stored in the baseplate when not in use. :p;)
I love my RD-1. I never forget to wind any camera. I vote for manual wind. It's just soooo satisfying.
/T
indeed, it is the way to go. What it does matter if it is not "modern". The whole RF thing is considered to be retro, old fashioned so let us put more "old things" :). With manual winding you get more battery energy and silence. it is much important for me.
i love using my rd1 for the manual winding and how quiet it is. i love the picture quality (except for high iso) on my m8. i hide my screen with my Luigi case. i would love for 'the next rf' camera to have a manual winder.
Definitely automatic. As a former owner of an R-D1 before the M8, the one almost palpable burden that I was released from with the M8 was forgetting to wind on. I can't tell you the number of shots I missed because I had forgotten to wind on with the R-D1. If you are desperate for a manual wind get an R-D1 and fine camera that it is you'll soon find yourself yearning for a M8.
LouisB
I rewind straight after any shot when using the RD-1, like an automatism. It is now very seldom that I miss a shot because of forgetting to rewind. It does happen, but I miss more shots because of the power down than the rewind.
tom.w.bn
07-22-2008, 02:23
I like the way a Konica Hexar AF works in the silent mode. After taking a picture no film-advance is executed unless you release the trigger. In a quiet environment you can take the picture and you just hava to wait for some environment noise. Then you release the trigger and the film is advanced by the motor.
gfspencer
07-22-2008, 06:18
I think I like the idea of manual winding but then I remember when I shot Nikon film cameras I always put a motor drive on them . . . so maybe I didn't like manual winding all that much after all.
POINT OF VIEW
07-22-2008, 12:27
I doubt whether this is realistic. The amount of energy you can produce with the winder, is not nearly enough to run the display, processor etc. Also, you can not "eliminate the battery", you would merely ADD an electro magnet to charge the battery, which would take up even more space.
The footprint for the Xo9 combination lock is 4in. x 1in. The generator is 2mm. The lock does not have any battery, that was a government requirement, for design. One extended crank would be more than enough to charge a 80 uf. capacitor, that is enough current to power a stun gun. A two crank lever would be enough current for all the M8 requirements. Removing the battery would leave a 4x5 mm. space. That is enough for a large generator + capacitor. This is doable. Bill
How about that when you release the trigger it cocks the shutter? This way you could just hold the button down for as long as you don't want that extra noise. In continous shooting mode this would of course be disabled. It doesn't save up the battery, but maybe it can be quieter.
I'm not sure on wheter to vote for auto or manual, but generally I feel that a rangefinder should have more mechanical and less electronic components.
Some older lenses are radioactive. Might that not destabilize a nuclear reactor? :D
Manual wind means one less motor to break. I have a DSLR for those automated occasions.
The footprint for the Xo9 combination lock is 4in. x 1in. The generator is 2mm. The lock does not have any battery, that was a government requirement, for design. One extended crank would be more than enough to charge a 80 uf. capacitor, that is enough current to power a stun gun. A two crank lever would be enough current for all the M8 requirements. Removing the battery would leave a 4x5 mm. space. That is enough for a large generator + capacitor. This is doable. Bill
Either way you'd have to crank more than once, and you will have to do without a display. I don't know how long camera needs to capture and store a RAW images, but I imagine you'd need a battery. I don't know how fast the ISO settings are set and whether this requires more than a single discharge?
leicasniper, notice many electronic devices shrinks for lower energy consumption (global warming you know). Say CPU are producing at 45nm now, LCD is getting be replaced by OLED or something else. It means thinner, more energy effective. The list of new improvements doesnt end.
How about solar stuffs? :) I think shutter advance can provide enough of energy many years later when small electronic stuffs produce much less energy. Now I remember laptops which sells to schools of poorer countries. You have to use energy generator in the laptop to be able to use :)
It is not long time away until we dont depend on charging batteries such often as today ;)
At least this poll shows the proportion of die-hard traditionalists on this forum :p
jappv, you know some here love film :) Nothing can replace B&W yet.
Agreed, but only if you process and enlarge yourself. No scanning!
I forget to zip my fly from time to time as well, we all forget things. Something that would make the camera quieter and less battery dependent would be great.
I only forget to zip my fly when there's two buttons I have to close first instaed of the usual one ;). Now, what that has to do with manual shutter cocking, I don't know... :)
Agreed, but only if you process and enlarge yourself. No scanning!
Sure all way to the final picture :) My film scanner is half broken and you see not even image, lol. Still great as preview (contact copy ;) or contrast experiment)
now to the topic.
I imagine after 10 years when we are tired "modern" stuffs, I'd expect (or wish for) digital MP (M8 looks kinda of complement to M7, modern as possible but for MP you have go for much retro as possible)
Digital MP features:
-manual winder, no LCD, only add ISO change dial (like Rd1), no other buttons. Of course a very small oled for battery and number of shots info (aka m8). All other will resemble for analog MP. I just thought one can always set settings for camera when you connect camera to the computer. Convenient :)
I think we can live without LCD when DR (dynamic range is improved tens time than now. I really misuse the ability to look at LCD of RD1 after some shots (to check exposures) and already lose attention to surroundings. You dont get easily distracted with analog cameras. Sometimes I check how much is left of the roll. Thats all.
What can beat feeling when you finished roll by shooting, come home and waiting when pictures are finished when you dont know what it can happen. Sure I can do same thing with Rd1. I will try when I get handheld meter soon so maybe I will glue the closed "door" *lol*
Great thing with Rd1 that it is completely flat when you close door. I wish same for M8 which looks not pleasant to held. Thats why I dream about digital MP to held on flat surface of the back, covered with vulcanite :)
tom.w.bn
07-25-2008, 05:02
Digital MP features:
-manual winder, no LCD, only add ISO change dial (like Rd1), no other buttons. Of course a very small oled for battery and number of shots info (aka m8). All other will resemble for analog MP. I just thought one can always set settings for camera when you connect camera to the computer. Convenient :)
I think we can live without LCD when DR (dynamic range is improved tens time than now. I really misuse the ability to look at LCD of RD1 after some shots (to check exposures) and already lose attention to surroundings. You dont get easily distracted with analog cameras. Sometimes I check how much is left of the roll. Thats all.
Uh. Ouch. I assume you are one of 100 persons worldwide that want a digital camera without a display. So why should any firm invest money in such a small group?
Roger Hicks
07-26-2008, 04:35
OK: here is the Party Line, from Leica (conversations at Arles earlier this month).
Leica seriously considered manual shutter cocking, but assembly costs for manual cocking are much higher, and the difficulty of fitting the manual lever in is disproportionate.
As for a trigger baseplate (or clockwork MOOLY-lookalike) to generate electricity, apparently there's just too much triggering/winding involved to charge the kind of very high-energy-density battery used in any modern digicam. Your finger would get tired with a trigger, and you'd need to wind the spring too often with a MOOLY.
Likewise, to my surprise, a baseplate holding AA batteries is not feasible -- though I didn't push them on this, and it may be that it is not feasible with all types of AA, only with some. I had suggested both this and the MOOLY/SCNOO approach.
Cheers,
R.
While I like the winder on the RD1 and find it usueful to delay rewind noise or slow down picture taking, I do not understand any claims for not having a LCD.
This is the 21st century ... come on, TV are now in color, cell phones can show your correspondant ... why would we not put a LCD on a digital camera ?;)
Nostalgia of the past is definitely not an argument for the younger generations, so I really do not see what besides that could justifiy not putting a LCD ?
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