Wartime IIIc, red curtain, stepper rewind

[HuubL]

This one is for Tom I guess. What should I pay for the above camera when in nice condition, although the shutter curtain possibly needs a fix?

[LeicaTom]

This one is for Tom I guess. What should I pay for the above camera when in nice condition, although the shutter curtain possibly needs a fix?

Hmmmmmm well, Red Curtain Leica IIIC`s have always been on the high note for collectors ever since the end of the 1960`s when the WW2 Leica stuff started picking up momentum pricewise

Condition is the #1 factor, nearly in all my travels and encounters with this uncommon bird, they are almost always very heavly used, missing the rare ribbed shutter collar ring and have highly scratched top plates, bad knobs and rotten curtains (maybe 70% of them are this way) the 30% surviving cameras in very good to fine/near mint bring a good deal of money even if they are not verified Military engraved, also look for damaged vuclanite, most pre 1945 Leica IIIC vulcanite`s not survived without cracks or some sort of damage

I`d say for a good Red Curtain body $225 to $300 is a realisitic amount -
(for damaged curtain camera In-Operational one)

But, near mint/mint with a matching lens will bring $600+

I just saw a rare Red Curtain IIIC to IIIF conversion sell for over $700, but it was truly mint/minus

If the shutter curtain is rotten or holy/beat up, it takes the entire novelty of the "Red Curtain" away
(I always considered these cameras interesting in only a collectors view and as SHOW CAMERAS and never as a serious camera to work with, they do L@@K beautiful though with that pre 1942 "satin chrome" that just glows when you look at it) :D

I don`t know of anyone here in the West who`s restoring the curtains with correct fabric, some fakes have come out of the Eastern Bloc countries in the past, but a suitable replacement for the Red stuff just is`nt out there now....unless someone knows something I don`t?

please post if anyone KNOWS where to get good reproduction Leitz/Kodak Red Curtain material

Tom

PS: If you are really looking for a "shooter" Leica IIIC that`s a "Stepper" look for postwar US Army one in the #394xxx to #396xxx series, these had much better quality control and they are fantastic working cameras, only major problem is bad vulcanite from a survival standpoint

[HuubL]

Thanks Tom! 450 euros for the one I'm eying seems to be on the high side (black spots on the curtain, definitely not scratch-free, but the shutter collar is there! and no lens!). I think I'll pass.

[maddoc]

... I was always wondering about the red curtain in these cameras. What was the reason to substitute the standard black rubber curtain and what is the material, the red version is made of ? Is it more durable than the black one ?

[LeicaTom]

... I was always wondering about the red curtain in these cameras. What was the reason to substitute the standard black rubber curtain and what is the material, the red version is made of ? Is it more durable than the black one ?

The Red Curtain story is`nt 100% clear, it`s sure that is was put to test before the war with samples from Eastman Kodak USA and was supposly part of some tropical climate tests with cameras, others have said it had also something to do with improving shutter curtain performance against light leakage, sadly the men who could tell us for sure are all long dead now :(

It`s 100% sure these curtains were instaled because of War Time Material Shortages in Germany at the time
(production was late 1940 to mid/late 1941) after that Leitz had black curtain material again and the Red fabric was forgotten
*Oh I always heard that these curtains were made from Parachute material? Just how true that is who knows?*

I believe that something like 12,000 Red Curtain Leica IIIC`s were made during this time

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Thanks Tom! 450 euros for the one I'm eying seems to be on the high side (black spots on the curtain, definitely not scratch-free, but the shutter collar is there! and no lens!). I think I'll pass.

Yes, that`s a good choice, the Red Curtain`s are really just collectors realm cameras, only a real beater that`s cheap for a CLA would be a bargain and worth looking into as a Wartime style shooter......

I was lucky myself about 4 weeks ago to find a #361xxx issue *black curtain* early production Leica IIIC (the first few thousand Leica IIIC`s had black curtains) this camera`s
"engraved" NL Leitz Netherlands (Odin) Leitz sales distributor during the occupation

I found it for under $200, but it needs an entire restoration internally, new curtains and RF parts and the top plate has taken some very bad blows, it`s still pretty and has 99% original vulcanite but needs about $400 worth of time and parts into it to make it a 100% operatiing camera

This camera was used during the war, in the occupied Holland by a German either civilian or military who knows?

I wish that camera could talk to me it would have a bold story to tell for sure

Tom

[maddoc]

The Red Curtain story is`nt 100% clear, it`s sure that is was put to test before the war with samples from Eastman Kodak USA and was supposly part of some tropical climate tests with cameras, others have said it had also something to do with improving shutter curtain performance against light leakage, sadly the men who could tell us for sure are all long dead now :(

It`s 100% sure these curtains were instaled because of War Time Material Shortages in Germany at the time
(production was late 1940 to mid/late 1941) after that Leitz had black curtain material again and the Red fabric was forgotten
*Oh I always heard that these curtains were made from Parachute material? Just how true that is who knows?*

I believe that something like 12,000 Red Curtain Leica IIIC`s were made during this time

Tom

Thank you, Tom !! Very informative and interesting. I have only seen once such a red-curtain equipped Leica here in Japan in a shop for sale (for a ridiculous high price of course ...:bang:)

Cheers,

[Mr_Flibble]

GoKevinsCameras always has a few on sale on Ebay. But the prices are too rich for my blood.

I recently bought a Red Curtain IIIc through a live auction with a sticky shutter but otherwise nice condition for $450 (Serial 370xxx), this was including a 50mm Elmar lens. It is doubtful that it still has its original vulcanite though.

[photovdz]

a sticky shutter is almost normal, those red curtains tends to melt in black sticky rubber spots....
the game is not to buy a red curtain but to find one ... not knowing it's a RC... ;-)
I've go two RC in my collection, both have sticky curtains of course but :
I got the first one for 100€ and it's complete... and I got the second one (discovered it's a RC when taking off the lens) with a real LTM wartime sonnar for 200$ (from the family of superior officer of the US army during WWII, as they said...).. furthermore that one was transformed for a rare flash sync sole...

Because the shutters are sticky they need to be operated every week at least...

[Mr_Flibble]

Thanks for the advice, I will look into it....it still hasn't arrived unfortunately :(

[mynikonf2]

I have been reading these threads trying to make up my mind about buying a IIIc or going for a IIIf or IIIg. The first problem seems to be locating a good IIIc. What should I pay for a IIIc is also an issue. Any help in locating a camera would be greatly appreciated.

[photovdz]

a normal IIIC is not so difficult to find... We were talking about the red curtains one... that are basically collectors item

[mynikonf2]

I understand that we are talking about "red cutain" IIIc's. That is why I question if I should seek a "red curtain" or go after a more common camera?
I like the mystic of the historical part these cameras played during that period of time. My concern is finding an authentic piece when there are so many fakes being dumped on the market.

[LeicaTom]

The only real "fakes" put out on the market concering Leica IIIC`s are the
Grey Paint cameras and this is only for their high collectors values

As for shooting a Red Curtain, you would be very hard pressed to even find one without light leaks, many of these curtains were also replaced by Leitz in the 1950`s for normal material as well, so many don`t even have the curtains anymore in them

Finding a pre 1946 Leica IIIC in good working condition is`nt that easy anymore, the market`s shifted pretty well in the past 6 months and anything that`s built with the stepped rewind platform will be bringing crazy money regardless of condition now, these are really specialzed cameras that very few people use anymore for working/shooting, sadly most collectors have them salted away, there`s a few hardcore shooters like myself who are using them eveny day/week and some other Friend`s of the Stepper across the pond who have been active with them lately, I think it`s always good to find someone who`s interested in these cameras for more than just their collectors value

There`s been a rush on 1940/42 "Red Curtain" cameras lately, but my prediction is these sources will be dried up pretty soon as well

I would suggest a really good IIIC in the #400,000+ range to start out with, really good examples that are CLA`d can be found WITH a lens and CLA`d for under $500 and you are ready to shoot, $500 will barely find you a "Stepper" IIIC anymore, the market for them is pretty well burnt out now, nothing left to buy

Tom

[Charles Woodhouse]

A word of caution about using any Red Curtain camera with colour. I've fitted red curtains to a prewar Exakta and a Zorki 3M just for fun, and have got some amazing results, from a complete red wash on the prints at about 1/60 to vertical red lines and random at higher speeds. With light travelling at 180,000 MPH or so it can bounce around a lot in a camera dark chamber as the curtains are doing their thing. I bought the Red material from Fargo in the US a few years ago, and have only used it twice as replacements in red curtain IIIc's.
My latest Step IIIc no.3610xx arrived yesterday, and although it had been slightly butchered by the repairman from hell, I should be able to sort it out and make a properly working representative model of this scarce (circa 1600 cameras) first pattern IIIc. I've got the disease real bad and collect by maker's variations. This first pattern used the generally excellent prewar cloth going back to 1925, and I haven't had to do too many curtain replacements in cameras from this era. I wasn't concerned about the flash socket but some of the other internal butchery was just stupid.
But any IIIc that hasn't been butchered can be brought back to excellent working condition by a thorough overhaul because they were all so well made.

[LeicaTom]

My latest Step IIIc no.3610xx arrived yesterday, and although it had been slightly butchered by the repairman from hell, I should be able to sort it out and make a properly working representative model of this scarce (circa 1600 cameras) first pattern IIIc.


But any IIIc that hasn't been butchered can be brought back to excellent working condition by a thorough overhaul because they were all so well made.

Here`s my very early Leica IIIC NL #3613xx Black Curtain series that was verified built mid 1940 (July) and was directly exported to Holland NL engraved, it`s missing external screws, some internal shutter parts, shields and who else knows what ? It also sadly has some serious dents/marks in the top plate (this camera was REALLY used during WW2) the one good thing about the camera is it`s vulcanite is about 99.8% intact and there`s no internal or external modifications - for now it`s hanging around as pretty looking paperweight :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/koolgirliestuff/3234NET.jpg?t=1217561840 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

*Here`s a shot of the top plate - Notice the two bad hits it has,
(this camera was used well and also abused by who ever tried to repair it, that one hits a screwdriver mark :() and also the incorrect replacement screw on the rangefinder adjustment etc. I think a butcher had his hands on this camera as well* :(

But, I guess that I might have something special afterall, I really have`nt considered how uncommon this really is, I know the NL engraving is rare, but maybe the camera is even rarer than the engraving is?
Hmmm I don`t know? I`ve only heard about/seen 3 pre #362xxx series cameras in the past 5 years, Charles and yours is one of them, I don`t really know too much about the very early Leica IIIC`s I was just lucky to have this one fall into my lap accidently is how it happened to be......

The camera`s kinda growing on me as I look at it....though it`s 100% non-op now and needs about $400 worth of work/parts put into it, maybe I should keep it because it`s made so early? I hate having cameras around that don`t work, for me they are just an issue, but maybe I should see this one as my IIIC K is and also accept it as a collectible as well , it would just be nice if I could also take pictures with it too...;)

....And yes these era Leica`s are well made I agree....... that`s one of the main reasons I use the pre 1945 cameras for working, they never let you down, after a FULL CLA they are just SUPER CAMERAS to work with, working with my 1945 IIIC K (non stamp) to IIIFBD conversion is like heaven, such a smooth working camera :)

Tom

[Charles Woodhouse]

Hi Tom,
I just came up from working on my new IIIc when I should be doing a customers broken IIIa,
but now I know the design of the IIIc non-return spring wind lock.
I took my figures from Paul-Henry van Hasbroeck and my not always accurate Leica Historica 1978 screw camera production list. P-H van H writes that IIIc's with non-return spring wind lock went from 360175 to 363800 with many gaps for IIIb production, and red curtains came in at 362401, again with gaps, so original early black curtain IIIc's should only occur between 360175 and 362400. Adding up my sometimes dubious Leica Historica figures gives 1570 of these early black curtain cameras and 559 with red curtains, but I know that last figure is wrong.
From another old source I read the 21 red curtain IIIa's were made between 239606 and 239626. I'm still looking for one.
If your NL is looking for a new home, a complete makeover and perhaps a bit of work, perhaps I can help! Just a thought, Charles.

[mynikonf2]

Tom & Charles,
That is the allure of these cameras, their quality, & their rarity. Whatever IIIc I acquire, I will have it CLA’d because I intend to use it. I want the experience of working with one of these instruments. The more I read about the IIIc the more I lean towards an early IIIc.

[Charles Woodhouse]

Hi mynikonf2,
Any IIIc in good cosmetic condition, that is one that hasn't had a hard life is a delight to work with, allthough I do read a lot of complaints about the squinty little viewfinder. It doesn't worry me because I can take my glasses off and still see quite clearly, but it probably comes as a shock to someone used to looking through an OM-1.
I have ten IIIc's(although I would like to start a collectors movement to name the postwar cameras IIIe), and have used most of them. My favorite for use however is a star serial number postwar camera that I bought as a battered wreck and rebuilt.It is the silkiest Leica I have ever handled.
One tiny drawback to bottom loading cameras is having to cut the film leader to 10cm, but I carry a small pair of scissors and 10cm is the length of my index finger.
IIIc's are simpler to work on and much more rugged than any other rangefinder Leica, but Leitz could have learned a lot from Canon regarding rangefinder camera development, and from Nikon regarding SLR development. But had Canon stuck a mirror box on their P they would have made the perfect SLR, IMHO.

[Charles Woodhouse]

Tom, I'm sorry to have been so crass as to make an offer on your early NL IIIc - I should have read your post more carefully and I would have realised how attached you are to it. I guess I just get twitchy (and greedy) when I hear about cameras like this that could be given a new lease on life.
I bought a III from a friend a while back. It is engraved Stapo Liegnitz (State Police, Liegnitz or Legnica in Nazi occupied Poland) and my friend couldn't use it because it had no shutter at all and no slow speed mechanism, etc, etc. After obtaining the parts and a complete rebuild it
sits on top of a MOOLY and works perfectly, whereas my other early screwmounts with original heavier curtains miss frames with the MOOLY.

[LeicaTom]

Tom, I'm sorry to have been so crass as to make an offer on your early NL IIIc - I should have read your post more carefully and I would have realised how attached you are to it. I guess I just get twitchy (and greedy) when I hear about cameras like this that could be given a new lease on life.


Hahahahhaahha that`s ok Charles, that`s the way I`m with the K shutter IIIC`s and the late produced "stepper`s" the 1946 models, or the "crossover" cameras, I think though I`ll have enough with 6 or 7 of them, just enough to being using all the time, I`m more of a historian then a collector LOL!!!!!!! ;)

I`m considering trading it for a camera I used to own, it was a very clean mid 46' model that just needs new covering and curtains (the 1946 "crossover" cameras are pretty uncommon as well, less then 500 were made)

But, I`m slightly attacted to this camera now and I`d like to see it working again though, it`s the earliest IIIC I`ve ever owned and I don`t know if I want to keep it due to it`s age and history or trade it in for something that I know will out perform it threefold
(I`m more about the shooting and working with these old things)

The IIIC K and the postwar "crossover" IIIC Stepped Rewind platform cameras are amoung the finest of all IIIC models and my 1945 non stamp IIIC K to IIIFBD is a jewel of a camera, looks like it was in Korea covering the war, but it performs like a champ, I even added a Canon "pop-up" spool to it so loading is like a sinch, bullet fast and no major problems, the camera is my weekly user

Tom

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Tom,

You almost certainly know more about this than I, but I recall that in the late 60s/early 70s, when I knew many early collectors, there was a widespread belief that the red blind material was originally for test purposes; that it was slightly more resistant to burning than black; but that as it was a lot more expensive, and as the improvement was very slight, Leica didn't bother. Then, when they couldn't get the black material easily, they used up the leftover test material (after all, you can make a lot of shutter curtains out of a few metres of fabric).

I do not recall the origin of this story; Colin Glanfield, from whom (I think) I first heard it, is dead these ten years or more; and it may merely be that it was a plausible fantasy. There are, after all, plenty of those in camera collecting! But I pass it on for what it is worth.

Cheers,

Roger

[LeicaTom]

Dear Tom,

You almost certainly know more about this than I, but I recall that in the late 60s/early 70s, when I knew many early collectors, there was a widespread belief that the red blind material was originally for test purposes; that it was slightly more resistant to burning than black; but that as it was a lot more expensive, and as the improvement was very slight, Leica didn't bother. Then, when they couldn't get the black material easily, they used up the leftover test material (after all, you can make a lot of shutter curtains out of a few metres of fabric).

I do not recall the origin of this story; Colin Glanfield, from whom (I think) I first heard it, is dead these ten years or more; and it may merely be that it was a plausible fantasy. There are, after all, plenty of those in camera collecting! But I pass it on for what it is worth.

Cheers,

Roger

Hello Roger!

Yes, as I mentioned above the test material supposly came from Eastman Kodak in about 1936/37, as Charles mentioned there`s even Leica IIIa`s that also are Red Curtain cameras, I can imagine the first cameras (if any) in the 1930`s were all for TEST just being used in Betribscameras (factory test) ones that never ever left the factory and were refitted with black curtains or destroyed

The 1940/42 era Red Curtains were made out of necessity of the times with wartime stortages made with the left over material, the fabric must have been very good because the German Airforce received a few thousand cameras with them and they were`nt recalled or refitted, only time now has made them go bad with aging, like the vulcanite of the same era, the Red Curtain fabric just didn`t stand the test of time on these cameras

Tom

[mynikonf2]

Look at this listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIC-LUFTWAFFE-5CM-F-2-SUMMITAR-LUFTWAFFE-LENS_W0QQitemZ120290721168QQihZ002QQcategoryZ15234 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[LeicaTom]

Look at this listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIC-LUFTWAFFE-5CM-F-2-SUMMITAR-LUFTWAFFE-LENS_W0QQitemZ120290721168QQihZ002QQcategoryZ15234 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

About $1,200 TOO MUCH!

It looks like the real deal. but without 100% verification, would`nt touch it with a 10 foot pole, these are the easiest of all Military Leica`s to fake, this seller also had a IIIC K Grey about a year ago that turned out to be a bogus camera

Always have to check the numbers when you invest in cameras such as these and Jim Lager is the ONLY resource for figuring out if it`s REAL or not

Tom

[mynikonf2]

Thanks for the advice!!!! Sometimes, in our want for a "good" camera, we can make hasty decisions that wind up costing us. In this case really costing us.

[mynikonf2]

I have an opportunity to purchase a IIIc red curtain in excellent condition but the price is steep. The price being asked is $995, almost a grand. What do you think? These are becoming harder to find and so the prices will continue to increase with time. I’ve been wanting one for some time now so I’m seriously thinking about buying it. Talk to me, let me know what you think…

[LeicaTom]

I have an opportunity to purchase a IIIc red curtain in excellent condition but the price is steep. The price being asked is $995, almost a grand. What do you think? These are becoming harder to find and so the prices will continue to increase with time. I’ve been wanting one for some time now so I’m seriously thinking about buying it. Talk to me, let me know what you think…

Nah, I`d pass.....for that price it better be Mint/Mint minus and guaranteed 100% original issued lens, I`ve seen maybe 4 or 5 Mint Red Curtain cameras in my whole life, it`s one of the most used of all Leica cameras, while 65% of them were issued German Airforce and the rest all to German industry and during 1940/45 there were really well used

And as I`ve said before the Red Curtain is just a camera with colored shutter fabric, as a collectable they have stayed in the $400 to $900 range forever, (at least the past ten years) only the 100% verified Luftwaffen cameras bring investment money and now the market`s down, so examples can be found for good prices *under $2,000* if you are patient and do your homework on the authenticity of each camera

Saving your money for a IIIC K or buying a post 1942 Leica IIIC is a better suggestion, (you get more bang for your buck, while the post 1942 cameras were even better performers than the early IIIC`s)

If you want a really good shooter the postwar "flattop" Leica IIIC`s from #400001 to about #420000 are great cameras, just look closely for any chrome problems (pitting or peeling) if it`s a soild camera and looking really good then you have a winner - I sold a #402xxx era camera with the postwar issued (wartime serial numbered) Summitar lens just a while ago for $500, it`s been a great shooter to it`s new owner, he was very happy with it

Tom

PS: Due to a backlog of orders and a mass storage during the war, many "wartime" produced Leica lenses were not issued until AFTER the war, you can find "wartime" produced lenses issued till late 1946/early 1947, so if you wind up with a #400000+ camera with a 1942/43 dated lens that`s normal, at least for many Summitar`s it`s the case :) - and a blessing as it`s a fantastic lens for shooting, far superior to the post 1948 dated Summitar`s

[LeicaTom]

Look at this listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIC-LUFTWAFFE-5CM-F-2-SUMMITAR-LUFTWAFFE-LENS_W0QQitemZ120290721168QQihZ002QQcategoryZ15234 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I`m having these numbers run ........this camera looks familiar now, I think it sold to this seller on ebay for like $1,500 or $1,800, that`s what it`s worth, the buyer just marked it up to make a profit on it, but it`s condition keeps it from being a high market priced camera, I`ve seen LE cameras in way better condition then this one, sell for way cheaper than what this one`s offered at

Tom

[mynikonf2]

Tom,
Here are some pic's of the camera I'm looking at
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/mikebrsm/IIIc-RedCurtain.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/mikebrsm/IIIc-RedCurtain2.jpg

[LeicaTom]

Tom,
Here are some pic's of the camera I'm looking at
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/mikebrsm/IIIc-RedCurtain.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/mikebrsm/IIIc-RedCurtain2.jpg

I know this camera and it was offered to me like almost 2 years ago, looks like it`s been RECOVERED, it does`nt seem to have the original vulcanite on it and it`s way overpriced, it`s worth tops $450 maybe $500 if someone wants it real bad, nothing really special about it in my opinion, there`s way better one`s to be found out there for cheaper money

Tom

[mynikonf2]

Thanks, Tom. Knew I could count on you for some honest feedback.

[LeicaTom]

Look at this listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIC-LUFTWAFFE-5CM-F-2-SUMMITAR-LUFTWAFFE-LENS_W0QQitemZ120290721168QQihZ002QQcategoryZ15234 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The auction ended early (possibly sold?) but this one was an original Luftwaffen Eigentum camera , issued in 1941, but the lens WAS`NT original to the camera, it was original Luftwaffe as well but issued in 1942

The price was as I said too high, I`ve seen way better sets, with matching numbers camera/lens sell for less than that

Tom

[LeicaTom]

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/105-Leica-IIIc-Luftwaffen-Camera-No-375858-chrome-e_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a392Q7c39Q3a1Q7c 66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3911Q2ec0Q 2em14QQhashZitem350087238979QQitemZ350087238979QQt imeoutZ1218664133171

I don`t even have to tell you this is the REAL DEAL, with original 1945 dated ownership transfer paperwork from US Army Occupying Forces, the one RF window ring is missing and you can`t tell if the lens is a LE engraved lens (but it seems to be in the right serial number range) overall a very nice camera, but that paperwork I think makes it even more valuable

Sadly the rarest bit`s of the kit that infantryman captured IS`NT with the auction, notice if you read the paperwork carefully there was (3) original LTM Carl Zeiss Sonnar lenses with the camera, 50/85 and 135mm versions
(these lenses would be worth almost as much as the camera if they were with it) - too bad they were lost with time, but that document is very interesting reading and adds to the value of the camera, I perdict at least $2,500 if not more......at the end of this auction

I wish my Grey IIIC K still had it`s original US Army ownership transfer paperwork from 1945, it was part of a kit that a member of 9th Armored Division brought back from Germany in 1945

Tom

[chris00nj]

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/105-Leica-IIIc-Luftwaffen-Camera-No-375858-chrome-e_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a392Q7c39Q3a1Q7c 66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3911Q2ec0Q 2em14QQhashZitem350087238979QQitemZ350087238979QQt imeoutZ1218664133171

I don`t even have to tell you this is the REAL DEAL, with original 1945 dated ownership transfer paperwork from US Army Occupying Forces, the one RF window ring is missing and you can`t tell if the lens is a LE engraved lens (but it seems to be in the right serial number range) overall a very nice camera, but that paperwork I think makes it even more valuable....

Tom

That auction is huge. There's a lot of Leicas up for sale.

I think they are off on the starting bids of common lenses in crappy condition (i.e., Elmar 90/4 LSM with fungus starting at $80).

[photovdz]

bingo... i have got a good clue that my 2 sonnars are true wartime productions...

that certificate is a wonderful find , it gives the proof that some of the 2858*** sonnars are wartime products...

I own 2859393 LTM (on a IIIC RC n°376660 no military markings) that was told to have a similar story but no certificate (belonged to an american high ranked officer and said to have been found at the end of the war...) and 2859321 LTM ...

the two other serial numbers will also be of great interest to spot LTM production batches... that are not in Thiele's book...

too bad the other lenses are lost...

Stephan...

[LeicaTom]

bingo... i have got a good clue that my 2 sonnars are true wartime productions...

that certificate is a wonderful find , it gives the proof that some of the 2858*** sonnars are wartime products...

I own 2859393 LTM (on a IIIC RC n°376660 no military markings) that was told to have a similar story but no certificate (belonged to an american high ranked officer and said to have been found at the end of the war...) and 2859321 LTM ...

the two other serial numbers will also be of great interest to spot LTM production batches... that are not in Thiele's book...

too bad the other lenses are lost...

Stephan...

Yes, with 27xxxxx and the 285xxxx serial numnbers, it`s kind of safe to assume that these are from pre 1945 batches, the Russian`s seemed to have really dived into the whole production thing as fast as Leitz did in 1945
and the 285 series lenses could also be part of batches of early postwar Russian Occupying Forces built Sonnar`s, which are just as rare as the wartime one`s, they were all built for Leica or RSM (Russian Screw Mount) cameras only for a very short time right after the war....... things were so crazy in 1945/46 in Europe and cameras were a really hot trading source in the Black Market scene and everybody was in a rush to get production out there ;)

Tom

[photovdz]

The hypothesis is that the german production continued after the war for a far longer time than previously thought... until 47 at least... until they relaunched at 3000000...
You must also think that the non glass related production and even the polishing work would have been spread around the factory ... may be in smaller workshop (to cope with potential bombing for instance) and that those workshop could work on their stocks...

I know I'm boring ... but the russian occupation forces never produced lenses... the lenses were produced in german owned workshops under russian scrutiny... but not as a planned economy.
Germany stayed more or less a capitalistic country until 1949...even in the USSR occupied zone... they requisionate, eventually steal... but don't rule the economy at that time...

[LeicaTom]

The hypothesis is that the german production continued after the war for a far longer time than previously thought... until 47 at least... until they relaunched at 3000000...
You must also think that the non glass related production and even the polishing work would have been spread around the factory ... may be in smaller workshop (to cope with potential bombing for instance) and that those workshop could work on their stocks...

I know I'm boring ... but the russian occupation forces never produced lenses... the lenses were produced in german owned workshops under russian scrutiny... but not as a planned economy.
Germany stayed more or less a capitalistic country until 1949...even in the USSR occupied zone... they requisionate, eventually steal... but don't rule the economy at that time...

The postwar production of Zeiss lenes went mostly to the Russian forces, that`s why original lenses are so hard to find, while most where used up, the US Forces had NOTHING to do with the Zeiss factory after the surrender of Germany in May 1945, the Russians took control of the factory and ran it for their own gains until after 1947........after that plans and designs were taken back to Russia and they build their own versions, becoming what`s known now as the Jupiter lenses

Perhaps some of the postwar Sonnar lenses reached the black market in the American West Sector in the late 1940`s, but as it to being so many to make a real difference this is doubtful

Whereas Leica was producing cameras and lenses less than 48 hours after the surrender for the US Army, it`s as if there was`nt even a war inbetween, though camera Export to Leitz NYC didn`t start back up till after 1947......

Tom

[Charles Woodhouse]

Just letting anyone know that I bit the bullet and bought that Red Curtain
3C(sic) in Britain for GBP265. From my reckoning it is at most one of only about 900 IIIc's with red curtains and the early non-return spring winding lock, and also about the 50th red curtain Leica made. That does equate to about AU$600 but I reckon it's worth it for the price.

[LeicaTom]

Just letting anyone know that I bit the bullet and bought that Red Curtain
3C(sic) in Britain for GBP265. From my reckoning it is at most one of only about 900 IIIc's with red curtains and the early non-return spring winding lock, and also about the 50th red curtain Leica made. That does equate to about AU$600 but I reckon it's worth it for the price.

Congrats on such an early camera Charles!

I have yet to get the #3613xx IIIC NL inspected for repair/CLA, I`m hoping it`s not missing anything really rare.....I know the lower light shield is gone and the shutter curtains have been cut out, so a butcher was in this one too :(

Tom

[Charles Woodhouse]

Hi Tom, sorry not to reply to your email, but my sister was staying a few days,and dragged me away from the computer.
When you say the bottom light baffle is missing from your NL IIIc, are you sure? These early IIIc's only had the flat back baffle which surrounded the film gate,and two side baffles, a curved one on the left as you look into the camera,and a W section one on the right. At the bottom the slow speed escapement was covered by a black box like the III,IIIa and IIIb series, but there was a stainless steel disconnect rod sliding on top of the black box just below the lens mount to give the 1/10,1/15 and 1/20 speeds.
By about 385000 this sliding rod had been painted black and some time after that Leitz introduced the flat bottom baffle that completely covered the slow speed escapement,and did away with the black box.

[LeicaTom]

Hi Tom, sorry not to reply to your email, but my sister was staying a few days,and dragged me away from the computer.
When you say the bottom light baffle is missing from your NL IIIc, are you sure? These early IIIc's only had the flat back baffle which surrounded the film gate,and two side baffles, a curved one on the left as you look into the camera,and a W section one on the right. At the bottom the slow speed escapement was covered by a black box like the III,IIIa and IIIb series, but there was a stainless steel disconnect rod sliding on top of the black box just below the lens mount to give the 1/10,1/15 and 1/20 speeds.
By about 385000 this sliding rod had been painted black and some time after that Leitz introduced the flat bottom baffle that completely covered the slow speed escapement,and did away with the black box.

Charles,

I hope everything`s ok down there with you and the family, let me know if your received the email with all the photos of my #3613xx IIIC NL and what do you think about it and the missing parts, get back to me when you can, no rush!

Tom

[tennis-joe]

I love it as it sounds like a spy novel almost.
You said the red curtain was cut out, so does this lower the value and does it now have a red curtain?
Joe

[LeicaTom]

I love it as it sounds like a spy novel almost.
You said the red curtain was cut out, so does this lower the value and does it now have a red curtain?
Joe

Ohh #3613xx NL had "Black" curtains, which is maybe the ONLY time in Leica history when the`re RARE, see it`s one of the very FIRST Leica IIIC`s ever made and is documented to have Black curtains, despite the bruised and battered condition of the camera, it`s quite possibly one of the ONLY surviving Leica NL`s of this early 1940 production series and as for value I`d put it around $1,200/$1,500 as soon as it`s restored

BUT, I` be decided it`s NOT for sale ;)

Tom

[LeicaTom]

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/105-Leica-IIIc-Luftwaffen-Camera-No-375858-chrome-e_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a392Q7c39Q3a1Q7c 66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3911Q2ec0Q 2em14QQhashZitem350087238979QQitemZ350087238979QQt imeoutZ1218664133171

I don`t even have to tell you this is the REAL DEAL, with original 1945 dated ownership transfer paperwork from US Army Occupying Forces, the one RF window ring is missing and you can`t tell if the lens is a LE engraved lens (but it seems to be in the right serial number range) overall a very nice camera, but that paperwork I think makes it even more valuable

Sadly the rarest bit`s of the kit that infantryman captured IS`NT with the auction, notice if you read the paperwork carefully there was (3) original LTM Carl Zeiss Sonnar lenses with the camera, 50/85 and 135mm versions
(these lenses would be worth almost as much as the camera if they were with it) - too bad they were lost with time, but that document is very interesting reading and adds to the value of the camera, I perdict at least $2,500 if not more......at the end of this auction

I wish my Grey IIIC K still had it`s original US Army ownership transfer paperwork from 1945, it was part of a kit that a member of 9th Armored Division brought back from Germany in 1945

Tom

That Skinner Auction ended with this Leica IIIC "Red Curtain" LE selling for only $1,600!!!!!

WOW Someone out there, got an amazing deal....I bet you money we`ll see this one come out again (in 6 months or a year from now) with some greedly dealer trying to get $3,000 out of it, the market`s really down on these WW2 cameras, heck the paperwork alone on this gave it a $500 premium on what it was worth, it just sold very low, a great deal for a 100% verified Luftwaffen camera

Tom

[LeicaTom]

That Skinner Auction Luftwaffen Eigentum Red Curtain IIIC is for sale AGAIN on evilbay

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LUFTWAFFEN-EIGENTUM-LEICA-IIIC-RANGEFINDER-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ250299399442QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em250299399442&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LUFTWAFFEN-EIGENTUM-LEICA-IIIC-RANGEFINDER-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ250299399442QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em250299399442&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

This camera is the REAL DEAL though the Red Curtain has some nasty age spots that are non fixable, the camera does has that unique 1945 dated US Army "capture" paperwork

Let`s see if the buyer will make a profit on this one as he paid $1,600 plus an auction premium......I doubt that this will go much over that with the rough curtains, but then again Red Curtains are rarely usable and are only glorified paperweights that all the WW2 German Military collectors look and pay crazy prices for when they have the Luftwaffe engravings on them......... ;)

Tom

[mynikonf2]

Tom,
The vulcanite color on this camera is an exact match to my 391 camera:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LUFTWAFFEN-EIGENTUM-LEICA-IIIC-RANGEFINDER-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ250299399442QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em250299399442&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[LeicaTom]

Tom,
The vulcanite color on this camera is an exact match to my 391 camera:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LUFTWAFFEN-EIGENTUM-LEICA-IIIC-RANGEFINDER-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ250299399442QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em250299399442&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-LUFTWAFFEN-EIGENTUM-LEICA-IIIC-RANGEFINDER-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ250299399442QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em250299399442&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

I thought it was Grey? This camera sold had black vulcanite (1941) pattern *early* style vulcanite, which was changed out in 1942 for a different pattern.

Your camera should have the same color grey vulcanite as a Grey IIC K, there were some left-over shells, laying around, so the factory used what they could find to out cameras together for the US Army......

Tom

PS: Well, that seller made an extra $400 profit on that camera, let`s see if it`s on evilbay next week for $2.500!!!! ;)

[mynikonf2]

You're right, now that I'm home these photos do look black. On the monitor at the office the skin looks gray. Oh well, sorry bout that.

[LeicaTom]

You're right, now that I'm home these photos do look black. On the monitor at the office the skin looks gray. Oh well, sorry bout that.

Yes, I think that there was a very small batch of Leica IIIB`s made in 1943 that had Grey spray painted vulcanite, with "Luftwaffen Eigentum" stamped on the back in black paint, just why they did this I don`t know?

Leitz NEVER made Grey vulcanite as some people have sometimes suggested or described a camera as having, it was always black vulcanie sprayed over, as was on ALL the Leica IIIC and IIIC K Grey cameras.

Tom

[photovdz]

got a problem

my technician rebuild one of my IIcRC from bit of another one... ok it works but...
the top plate and the chassis are mixed ...
and I'm left with a complete but in pieces IIIcRC without curtains...

so should I ... solve the problem of the top plate (the correct one has a flash synch socket)
and rebuild the second one with new curtains...

anyone got nice new red curtains... ?

Stephan

[LeicaTom]

got a problem

my technician rebuild one of my IIcRC from bit of another one... ok it works but...
the top plate and the chassis are mixed ...
and I'm left with a complete but in pieces IIIcRC without curtains...

so should I ... solve the problem of the top plate (the correct one has a flash synch socket)
and rebuild the second one with new curtains...

anyone got nice new red curtains... ?

Stephan

By IIICRC I figure you mean "Red Curtain" I have never seen it reffered to that way before LOL!!!!!

There were some Russian and Polish "fakers" in the late 1980`s who were faking Red Curtains and selling them into the German Leica collectors market.

I did`nt know where they were getting their material????......no one currently carries that Eastman Kodak Parachute Red Fabric anymore, you could find someone with normal red fabric I`m sure, but the original 1940/41 fabric has been gone for good for over 50 years!!!

I say put normal black curtains in it, it`s a user anyway while it`s made up of spare parts and it`s no longer of any collectible value.

Tom

[john neal]

Stephan,

You can get red curtain material from Microtools, but it is a modern fabric with a much more pronounced weave than the old silk used by Leica. I'm presently trying to locate an alternate source for a project of my own. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

If you need black material, I would recommend Jon Goodman, he has some superb synthetic silk, coated one side, that is the thinnest currently available.

[LeicaTom]

Currently at evilbay.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-Red-Curtain-Luftwaffe-Documented_W0QQitemZ160295247320QQihZ006QQcategory Z15234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Very uncommon 1940 issued "Red Curtain" Luftwaffen Eigentum (Air Force Issued) IIIC which is 98% original, with a very pretty shutter curtain and some combat "usage" patina.

Camera has the FL no. 38079 (Luftwaffen Supply Contract Number) engraved on the top plate but doesn`t have the Luftwaffen Eigentum writing engraved on the upper rear portion of the camera, only a small batch of cameras were ever made this way and there`s no explanation as to why the property engravings were`nt done, but this camera is the real deal.

Only the slow speed dial was changed out at a later date (to a post 1942 version) other than that the camera is a very nice original survivior.

Tom

[Vince Lupo]

For anyone who's interested, that wartime IIIc Luftwaffe camera is mine, and if you need more info or closeup photos of that area where the engraving may or may not have been, please e-mail me and I'll send them to you.