View Full Version : embedded photographer kicked out for showing war
Here's an article about how a photographer embedded with the US military was kicked out for publishing images that show US causalities. The soldiers in the image are unidentifiable. I don't want to get too political with it, but what about the preservation of history? How can the public ever see the true cost of war with this sanitized version? Where's the documentation of these soldier's ultimate sacrifice? I think about Capa's work and all that followed, these guys captured the moment, the humanity and inhumanity of war. Yes, I know there were censors in previous conflicts, but the inability of a government to show, with respect, the price that its citizens are paying for the conflict is galling. Instead we're fed white-washed propaganda. Anyway, it's a shame that a photographer gets fired for showing the truth.
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43066
xayraa33
07-07-2008, 13:24
Showing these pictures is bad for the war business.
War imagery is better left to Hollywood.
BillBingham2
07-07-2008, 13:41
Seems the Marines can not handle the truth?
B2 (;-<
I saw this article as well and it just mad me very sad. My stepbrother is a gunner over there now and I wonder how he is going to adjust when he gets back. It is truly a sad time for this country when we can not see what happens to our brothers and fathers (and sisters and mothers) that give so much. It just adds insult to injury and I for one will be happy when this time passes.
chambrenoire
07-07-2008, 13:55
I recommend the documentary 'War Made Easy - How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us To Death'.
Pherdinand
07-07-2008, 14:29
it's just propaganda.
it's just propaganda.
What?
The embedding of reporters into military units?
Rules meant to sanitize their work?
Hollywood?
Protest over the sanitation?
The War Made Easy book?
All of those above?
Pherdinand
07-07-2008, 14:41
What?
The embedding of reporters into military units?
Rules meant to sanitize their work?
Hollywood?
Protest over the sanitation?
The War Made Easy book?
All of those above?
Life, the Universe and everything:D
Pherdinand
07-07-2008, 14:43
The original post was obviously a complaint about the kicking-out of the fellow.
That's what I gave my oppinion on.
but you knew that, of course.
I recommend the documentary 'War Made Easy - How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us To Death'.
Thanks for the tip; it's at the top of my Netflix cue. :)
kshapero
07-07-2008, 14:56
It is easy to blame the govt for everything since usually it is true. But there are always 2 sides. I was once a photographer for the State of Ct to document children in foster homes and other facilities. A bunch of hippie types (this was in the early 70's and my hair was longer than theres) were protesting the war in Vietnam near the govt building I had been in. I started taking pictures,mostly of their brutality towards anyone who disagreed with them. finally they noticed me and came over to me and told me to stop shooting. I refused and they grabbed my camera and beat me with it ( a Nikon F) and then took off with it. I needed about , I think 8 stitches. So much for the Peace and Love wing of thought.
In conclusion since the very nature of all govt is corrupt would else should we expect? sorry for whining.
danwilly
07-07-2008, 18:39
But you said you were working for the state? And taking their picture? Maybe that had something to do with it. Just a thought.
I don't think Zoriah is a hippie type. He is a journalist doing his job, and doing it well. Perhaps too well? If you have the stomach for it and want to see the work he does you can view his diary but truly it is EXTREMELY GRAPHIC. I do not mean to yell but I do not want any one to click on it without being ready to see war uncensored. Here is the link to the diary:
http://www.warshooter.com/content/zoriah-war-photographer-diaries-shooting-war
Moderator: Please feel free to remove my post if it is inappropriate.
NickTrop
07-07-2008, 19:19
Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?
BillBingham2
07-07-2008, 20:27
I think the fact is that a reasonable rule is abused by the folks in power for their benefit. With the instantness of todays media you could see your son dead on the 7PM CNN web page before you get a call. There needs to be some moderation and logical management. But a few weeks later it might tell an important story. I agree with the rules, but the way they are enforcing them is very very sad. War photography is a wonderful thing. It can project an un-spun view of a moment in time. You might not see everything, but you have one view of an event. In this sort of war embedded is the only way for most to stay alive. People are loosing their heads over there for just looking American.
B2 (;->
erikhaugsby
07-07-2008, 21:26
Life, the Universe and everything:D
42 is a number. What's wrong with numbers?
shimo-kitasnap
07-07-2008, 21:45
war is hell, that's all there is to it. I guess the masses aren't ready for images of real dead people, just like their rating system for movies, everything is sanitized. Our society doesn't want us to see truths, they'd rather distort so they can shape our reality be it the U.S. gov't and the media, neither side wants to show what's really happening when in fact war is happening and there are positives and negatives.
Now on the subject of getting beaten by cameras, did that Nikon F come apart or did it remain intact. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just curious about the durability of old cameras. Wonder what would happen if embedded pj's were beaten with an EOS or Nikon DSLR?
The army isn't taking journalists along with its combat units to preserve history or to tell the truth about anything. Embedded journalism is journalism only by name, in reality it's public relations.
No army today wants Vietnam-style war photographers turning the public opinion at home against the army itself. Most armies nowadays try to avoid this like the plague. I don't know what kind of contract this guy had with the army, but I'm sure there were some conditions to the effect that the army had the right to terminate the agreement if they disagreed with the output he produced while under said contract. I respect his striving for journalistic integrity, but you just can't sign up with the army as an embedded journalist and hope to be able to publish everything you see.
Philipp
The army isn't taking journalists along with its combat units to preserve history or to tell the truth about anything. Embedded journalism is journalism only by name, in reality it's public relations.
No army today wants Vietnam-style war photographers turning the public opinion at home against the army itself. Most armies nowadays try to avoid this like the plague. I don't know what kind of contract this guy had with the army, but I'm sure there were some conditions to the effect that the army had the right to terminate the agreement if they disagreed with the output he produced while under said contract. I respect his striving for journalistic integrity, but you just can't sign up with the army as an embedded journalist and hope to be able to publish everything you see.
Philipp
Here (http://www.mnf-iraq.com/images/stories/For_the_media/media%20hold%20harmless%20-%20ground%20rules%20updated%2020nov07.pdf) are the rules, he followed them and still got kicked out. Some of us are intent on covering war and conflict because we feel it is imperative to our way of life. Other info can be found at:
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10215&Itemid=144
WoolenMammoth
07-07-2008, 23:24
I was one of such people, intent on covering war. I was all geared up and ready to go until the embeds were announced. It then became clear that one was not able to cover the war, but just the movement of the US military and of that, what it let you cover.
And for the luxury of this, you could die in the process.
Suddenly, I thought of two hundred million things more worthy of my death than being part of the PR machine that is our current media and I didnt go.
I have no regrets.
You have to wonder, if they were alive, and fit, if someone like henri huet or larry burrows would have bothered with this nonsense. I fantasize not.
Pherdinand
07-08-2008, 01:23
I took a look on those rules:D
"(6) Possession of pornographic material while embedded or reporting is not authorized."
???What the heck of a rule is this??? And it's there in the front, rule nr six, all before the safety related rules.
This world is weird.
hunghang
07-08-2008, 01:32
"History is written by the victors"
There are a few non-"in-bedded" reporters. I wish Dahr Jamail had better photo documentation of his work. The days of "history is written by the victors" is past. The best the "victors" can hope for today with so much media and instant communication is to create a hopeless muddle and miasma of doubt through spin and propaganda. The iconic images of the current conflicts that will live through history have been captured by pjs working for Al Jazeera.
"(6) Possession of pornographic material while embedded or reporting is not authorized."
???What the heck of a rule is this???
This is from the same administration that ordered "naked" statues at the Department of Justice covered up, so there you go.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm
John Rountree
07-08-2008, 09:59
For some insight into what it is like to work independently as a photographer in Iraq, look for the book: Unembedded (Chelsea press 2005, hardback
ISBN: 1-931498-95-4, paperback ISBN: 1-931498-98-9). Four photographers show their work and talk about the challenges of working in Iraq without being beholden to the US Military. But even in that book there is very little documentation of American casualties. It is important to remember that the first casualty of war is the truth.
Some great responses in there so far.
I do see embeds as having mostly a PR role, but to follow the rules and still get kicked out seems wrong. I think the administration is wrong for blocking photos like that, or even of returning coffins. It demeans soldier's service and lowers civic discourse by sanitizing the whole thing. But that's what the administration wants anyway, to have their war of choice, on the taxpayers dime, no questions asked. It makes me ill when I think about it, which is precisely what they don't want me to do.
jan normandale
07-08-2008, 10:11
I'm so confused by our media and it's spin I just glaze over. I have to be skeptical about everything that is written. It's nuts. It's like living a life of a "hockey goalie" 24/7 and continually kicking out the pucks lest one more disinformation point is scored. I'm weary of it all and that alone is a victory for these puppet masters.
Bottom line is the government and media have collectively "cried wolf" so many times I can't believe them. The future doesn't look much better either.
sepiareverb
07-08-2008, 10:15
Public Relations is right. From the Media Hold Harmless Agreement:
(8) While in transit to and from an embed or unit visit, the media cannot act in a news gathering capacity. Filming, interviewing or photographing on any installation or transportation assets is not authorized unless approved and escorted by a public affairs officer responsible for that area.
So, you simply can't report freely- wasn't there something written somewhere about a free press?
This one seems a bit troubling also-
(14) (n) No interviews with detainees are authorized.
Wouldn't want to hear the other sides opinion would we?
I truly hope that the whole story comes out before Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld are dead.
I will be giving a talk on Iraq coming Friday. What should I not say?
crawdiddy
07-08-2008, 10:24
I truly hope that the whole story comes out before Bush, Cheney & Rumsfeld are dead.
I agree. I'll add Karl Rove in there too.
The foreign policy blunder is bad enough. But I'm disgusted that they're also dismantling the Bill of Rights.
The saddest part is they've got a sizeable percentage of the American public to believe that simply asking "hey, what's going on here?" is an act of treason.
Rick Waldroup
07-08-2008, 10:40
Here is an interesting video. Some of you may have seen it before. Now, it comes from a left wing blog, so take it with a grain of a salt. Anyway, it is still an interesting take on this war by this administration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ
sepiareverb
07-08-2008, 10:47
I will be giving a talk on Iraq coming Friday. What should I not say?
If you say something wrong I'm sure you'll find out soon enough. Frightening times for truth.
If you say something wrong I'm sure you'll find out soon enough. Frightening times for truth.
I'll keep my mouth shut on "politics" and will review the past 100 years of Iraq history.
I guess we are getting what we all want, life that is clean and without troubles. Frankly the world outside of America is so disgusted with the US that I sometimes don't tell people I am American just so I can avoid the onslaught of criticism over a gov system I do not approve of. Its a bad time to be an American in the outside world these days...and frankly I am a little ashamed.
nikonhswebmaster
07-08-2008, 12:36
I am not particularly interested in politics and nationalism, or religion, but in the US you are supposed to be.
Personally I like art, music, food and sex, but these do not seem to be on either one of the current politicians radar.
Rick Waldroup
07-08-2008, 12:51
I guess we are getting what we all want, life that is clean and without troubles. Frankly the world outside of America is so disgusted with the US that I sometimes don't tell people I am American just so I can avoid the onslaught of criticism over a gov system I do not approve of. Its a bad time to be an American in the outside world these days...and frankly I am a little ashamed.
Try being from Texas, my friend. Everytime someone finds out I am from Texas, they want to know how in the hell we produced such a moron for a president. And what is worse, is that a huge number of Texans still support the guy and his policies. The reality of the situation is a bitter pill for a lot of Texans to swallow.....
Try being from Texas, my friend. Everytime someone finds out I am from Texas, they want to know how in the hell we produced such a moron for a president. And what is worse, is that a huge number of Texans still support the guy and his policies. The reality of the situation is a bitter pill for a lot of Texans to swallow.....
Ouch. I can just imagine. At least being from Seattle most people recognize me as maybe being more liberal and sometimes that's enough to keep me out of trouble. One time a very very poor old lady picking up scraps on the street lectured me over American government foolishness! This as a lady who had soda can pull tabs for coat buttons and probably made 15 cents a day. Oh dear...
Al Patterson
07-08-2008, 13:11
Try being from Texas, my friend. Everytime someone finds out I am from Texas, they want to know how in the hell we produced such a moron for a president. And what is worse, is that a huge number of Texans still support the guy and his policies. The reality of the situation is a bitter pill for a lot of Texans to swallow.....
This "Bush is a moron" meme is getting tired. What does this childish name calling have to do with cameras? You are as tiresome as my conservative friends who still call Bill Clinton a serial rapist. I guess both childish insults are true, right?
WoolenMammoth
07-08-2008, 13:19
What does this childish name calling have to do with cameras?
at the very least, its a marginally understandable reaction to an administration that has completely censored cameras, all cameras, showing the world what is happening on the battlefield.
Apparently, this isnt such a big deal to some people, but this country was built on ideals like, you know, a free press, freedom of speech, stuff like that.
back alley
07-08-2008, 13:23
let's stop with ALL the name calling, even of politicians.
please.
dazedgonebye
07-08-2008, 13:45
Certainly Raid should chose his words carefuly. If he says anything too radical, he'll be in danger of being granted tenure at Columbia University.
xayraa33
07-08-2008, 14:04
President McKinley is my favorite US prez.
LBJ, a close second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ZUneyU7Vo
sepiareverb
07-08-2008, 14:20
I'll keep my mouth shut on "politics" and will review the past 100 years of Iraq history.
You might want to avoid the last 5...
Rick Waldroup
07-08-2008, 14:34
This "Bush is a moron" meme is getting tired. What does this childish name calling have to do with cameras? You are as tiresome as my conservative friends who still call Bill Clinton a serial rapist. I guess both childish insults are true, right?
Well, Al, perhaps I did not word that correctly. The word "moron" is not used by me. Instead, that is the word most commonly used by the folks who ask me how the state of Texas could produce such a person. It seems to be a general consensus out here, by many folks, that Bush is the "M" word.
On the other hand, my favorite nickname for our fearless leader is "Pet Monkey."
Al Patterson
07-08-2008, 14:50
Well, Al, perhaps I did not word that correctly. The word "moron" is not used by me. Instead, that is the word most commonly used by the folks who ask me how the state of Texas could produce such a person. It seems to be a general consensus out here, by many folks, that Bush is the "M" word.
On the other hand, my favorite nickname for our fearless leader is "Pet Monkey."
Hmm, so the multitude of morons think Bush is one of their own I see.
The problem is, I'd wager Bush is smarter than most of those who think he's the moron. From where I sit the average person isn't much above moron themselves, so maybe it's the old "takes one to know one" at work here...
Now on the subject of getting beaten by cameras, did that Nikon F come apart or did it remain intact. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'm just curious about the durability of old cameras. Wonder what would happen if embedded pj's were beaten with an EOS or Nikon DSLR?
I don't have an F, but I have a Nikkormat FTn, and I would not want to be hit with it. It is much tougher than I am. My father used it pretty hard, and its got plenty of dents and dings, but it's never needed more than a minor CLA in 40 years. Nikons of that era are famous for being able to take, or in this case deliver, a beating without breaking.
Rick Waldroup
07-08-2008, 15:09
Hmm, so the multitude of morons think Bush is one of their own I see.
The problem is, I'd wager Bush is smarter than most of those who think he's the moron. From where I sit the average person isn't much above moron themselves, so maybe it's the old "takes one to know one" at work here...
Al, you may be onto something there. :)
Personally, I don't think Bush is a stupid person, or an evil person, or insane. I just find him to possibly be the worst president this country has ever produced whose misguided policies have led this country into an insane and unjust war, whose policies have put a real crunch on the economy, and whose priorities are completely out of whack with the reality of the situation that he finds himself in. He is the lapdog of his business cronies and the pet monkey of political hacks. He is out of his league. He is just a bad president- plain and simple.
Remember the debates between Reagan and Carter? Reagan kept asking one simple question- "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago." And everyone in the country knew the answer to that.
Ask yourself the same question today- except there is one major difference. This president's incompetence has cost people their lives.
Perhaps the US Military should give all embedded photogs an M8, then they would not have to censor as much...... ;)
Rick Waldroup
07-08-2008, 15:17
Perhaps the US Military should give all embedded photogs an M8, then they would not have to censor as much...... ;)
Now, that is funny.....:D
crawdiddy
07-08-2008, 15:47
Personally I like art, music, food and sex, but these do not seem to be on either one of the current politicians radar.
Well, we used to have a President who was overly fond of 2 or 3 of your favorites. I know he liked music, and even played sax on the Arsenio Hall Show. I don't know how much he liked art. We all know about the other 2.
Believe me, I'm not putting Bill down. Just affirming reality.
Remember when they tried to impeach him because he lied about an affair? Those were simpler times, alright. Imagine those legislators, two years before 9/11, thinking that a lie about an affair was worth impeaching the President!
OK, I'll shut up now. Not trying to pick a fight.
Hi Folks,
Perhaps we can not only abstain from name-calling but also make an effort towards a friendly exchange, despite the deep controversies. We can do it.
As for the case itself in my opinion it is a bit complex, very much due to the photog behaviour. It is not a clear cut case, in my opinion, and I will explain myself:
a) Being "embedded with Marines" - I don't know what was going in the mind of our fellow, but you can read the rules of the "contract" like you can read any law: literally, or by its spirit.
If you read it literally, it is clear to me you are not allowed to shoot whenever the "ground" officer in charge does not allow it.
If you read the contract by its spirit, you will be working for the US army.
If you are a reasonable person, but didn't read what you signed, you should understand that you cannot go to bed with the Marines and awake virgin.
2) Now, you can believe in the war, support the marines and their authorities, and most of the chances are you will not find yourself in any extra-marital conflict. Such kind of photographer was Dickey Chapelle, very much opposed to my views and nevertheless I wrote a note about her:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55661
3) True, most or all of the fundamentalistic groups, fighting the US, and US protected government there, do not have a PR office to which you can apply for guidance to show their side, or go ebedded and explode with them. So the concerned photographer looking for an independent view of the war finds himself in trouble. Has our colleague Zoriah Miller came out with an original and valid answer ?
4) Visual abuse. I have not liked either the porno carnage photo style of Mr Miller either. If to believe to the message of the style, this is the first war in which extraordinary carnage of US soldiers and local population takes place. Obviously untrue.
But we are supposed to associate the mutilated bodies with the war there, "Iraqui war = human carnage". Is this an objective, non-partysan viewpoint ?
Worse than that, escalating the visual scale of horror is a double sided sword. Today you can provoke some discomfort among the troops families, tomorrow you will have immunnized the US citizens to visually accept the unacceptable. That's not the way to convince, but rather cannibalize our minds. And if you don't want to convince, what exactly do you want ?
Cheers,
Ruben
dazedgonebye
07-08-2008, 15:58
Ruben nailed it in all aspects.
Yours is presently a government that is not in the slightest bit interested in "truth" - just lies, spin and preservation of their power. Its when I see monsters like Bush and Cheney in power that I really appreciate democracy. It is b*****ds like these who would take power and hold it at any price if allowed to do so. Your constitution (and ours) is the only thing that protects us.....melodramatic perhaps but true never the less. We used to think it was a free press which protected us and to an extent its true too, but at present your Washington press corps looks like a bunch of tame lap dogs only too eager to fall into line and push the White House line for a few crumbs of a story and a pat on the head. Its no wonder that they allow themselves to be pushed around and expelled if they do not follow the White House patter. If they do not fight for their freedom to tell the truth (in pictures or words) they will lose it.
I saw a recent interview with veteran of the Washington press corps Helen Thomas. It was clear that she is embarrassed by the lack of gumption presently being shown by her peers. There was a clip of her giving the White House mouth piece a hard time over Bushes belated admission (after years of lying and obfuscation) that not only does he know the US tortures prisoners but that he ordered it. She was the only one asking hard questions. Everyone else in the room sat like timid school children.
For years now your administration has been preventing pictures being taken of the war - except for a sanitised version. Its time USA awoke from its sleep and kicked these sons of bitches in the ass. In Australia we recently kicked out our previous government with a landslide victory for the other side. After years of rooting for Bush and using his tactics the people got sick of an excessively conservative government which was willing to use every trick in the book to suppress dissent. Too bad their replacement government is beginning to look as if they are not up to the task.
So I guess you now know where I stand!
..............For years now your administration has been preventing pictures being taken of the war - except for a sanitised version. Its time USA awoke from its sleep and kicked these sons of bitches in the ass. .....
Hi peterm1,
I think you have in the abovequoted sentence, masterfully summed up the photog assumptions.
I don't share this oversymplification of politics, hystorical context, etc.
Cheers,
Ruben
OK, I'll shut up now. Not trying to pick a fight.
How about this guys? Nobody has to shut up, but please be mindful that there are just as many folks who disagree with you as those who agree (roughly based on the past two popular vote counts in the US national elections) so please all be respectful of each other and also try to refrain from calling any of the liars, oops, I mean politicians names in the process.
We should be able to get through November pretty easily and there is always CNN and Fox News if you want to see bickering.
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