Which Printer for Black and White?

[dazedgonebye]

This thread...http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=852019#post852019 has me thinking about upgrading my printer. I currently have an Epson R1800. I'm not happy with the black and white output.
I'd like to avoid aftermarket inks and cis systems for now.
Which printer would you all recommend for the most easily achieved neutral black and white prints?
Pointers to good reviews also appreciated.

[sunsworth]

I have an Epson 3800 that produces wonderful neutral b&w prints. I believe the colour performance is very good too, but I haven't made that many colour prints.

[Toby]

I've got a HP B9180 and that's certainly very good. From what I can gather the Epson 3800 is top dog at the moment for a reasonable sized printer. And although pricey to buy its running costs are such that it works out cheaper than the Epson 2400 in the long run, although it would depend on how much use it got. It is also A2 instead of A3+ so if you use it a lot you gain both ways.

[tbarker13]

I can only comment on the one I own. The Epson 2400 is a very nice printer.

[gns]

I've been using the HP B9180 for a while. It can be set to use only the black inks (there are 2, black and light gray) which results in a very neutral print. The prints are probably more permanent as well since these blacks are mostly carbon pigments.

I think you really need to see actual results since this is really a very personal, aesthetic decision. Maybe some kind of sample print exchange for different printers and papers on RFF would be useful. I could probably send you a sample of my output if you are really interested in this printer.

Cheers,
Gary

[photophorous]

I hope you don't mind if I add an additional question here, which I think is relevant.

For those that use the black ink set ups, with multiple shades of grey in place of different color inks, how hard is it to switch back to color? Can you go back and forth pretty easily, or do you just dedicate a printer for B&W only?

Thanks,
Paul

[sojournerphoto]

Epson K3 printers - 2400,3800, 4800, 7800...., Canon ipf (and possibly smaller printer using lucia inkset) and HP printers with 3 or more blacks on board.

I use an IPF5000 and still like the output.

Mike

[dazedgonebye]

I hope you don't mind if I add an additional question here, which I think is relevant.

For those that use the black ink set ups, with multiple shades of grey in place of different color inks, how hard is it to switch back to color? Can you go back and forth pretty easily, or do you just dedicate a printer for B&W only?

Thanks,
Paul


I looked in to this a bit myself. Seems to me the most practical option is to dedicate a printer to b&w. Not a problem for me, since I don't anticipate printing much color anyway.
In fact, converting my current R1800 do dedicated B&W might be a good solution. It's only the bad luck I've had with third party inks in general that puts me off. I didn't try the dedicated black sets, but the color ones I tried were crap. I could never get the printer to work reliably without banding with the aftermarket inks.

[mfogiel]

You will find very good reviews of the printers here:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/

[dazedgonebye]

You will find very good reviews of the printers here:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/

I've been reading that site...thanks for helping me rediscover it.
It's got me thinking of Hp b8850 printer. Seems HP provides a black only ink set.
Lots of research left to do.

[lawrence]

I looked in to this a bit myself. Seems to me the most practical option is to dedicate a printer to b&w. Not a problem for me, since I don't anticipate printing much color anyway.
In fact, converting my current R1800 do dedicated B&W might be a good solution. It's only the bad luck I've had with third party inks in general that puts me off. I didn't try the dedicated black sets, but the color ones I tried were crap. I could never get the printer to work reliably without banding with the aftermarket inks.

I have converted my R1800 to a dedicated b&w printer using the Piezogaphy (http://www.piezography.com) K7 ink set. It's a bit expensive and fiddly to set up because you need to use the external ink system, which means having to install the tubing, fill the pots etc. but the good news is that you can actually get b&w prints without the horrible colour cast, metamerism etc. that the Epson inks for the R1800 suffer from.

An important consideration is that you can only use matt paper with this ink set although I understand they are working on a new set that will be suitable for all paper. Personally I have yet to see an inkjet print that replicates the look of a good "unglazed glossy" gelatin silver print so it's best to think of the process as providing something complementary rather than as a direct alternative. You will also need to buy the Quadtone RIP software to print your TIFs.

Personally, I only shoot, scan and print b&w so this setup suits me fine so I expect it would suit you too, however if you still want to be able to make colour prints I would recommend upgrading the R1800 for something else as switching between the Piezogaphy ink set and a colour inkset every time you wanted to print colour would not be practical IMHO.

[dazedgonebye]

I have converted my R1800 to a dedicated b&w printer using the Piezogaphy (http://www.piezography.com) K7 ink set. It's a bit expensive and fiddly to set up because you need to use the external ink system, which means having to install the tubing, fill the pots etc. but the good news is that you can actually get b&w prints without the horrible colour cast, metamerism etc. that the Epson inks for the R1800 suffer from.

An important consideration is that you can only use matt paper with this ink set although I understand they are working on a new set that will be suitable for all paper. Personally I have yet to see an inkjet print that replicates the look of a good "unglazed glossy" gelatin silver print so it's best to think of the process as providing something complementary rather than as a direct alternative. You will also need to buy the Quadtone RIP software to print your TIFs.

Personally, I only shoot, scan and print b&w so this setup suits me fine so I expect it would suit you too, however if you still want to be able to make colour prints I would recommend upgrading the R1800 for something else as switching between the Piezogaphy ink set and a colour inkset every time you wanted to print colour would not be practical IMHO.

I did some research in to this system some time ago as well. I need to revisit it.
One of my reservations was that I'd like to be able to make digital negatives for cyanotype printing and the system will not (as you point out) print on glossy paper. That rules out OHP Plastic film I use for negatives.
One alternative might be to convert the R1800 for black and white then buy a used R2400 for digital negatives. Of course space then becomes an issue.

[dazedgonebye]

It looks like I've found an inexpensive option to try before moving on to a new printer.
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.htm
Using 3 black inks in place of the current 2 blacks and gloss optimizer may give me better results...sacrificing only the ability to print on gloss papers. To do this, I'll need three inks from inksupply.com and the QTR Rip program. The inks are cheaper than the Espson inks for the same positions and the QTR Rip program is a $50 shareware thing.
This seems like an inexpensive toe in the water compared to doing a full conversion to monochrome inks and I think it's worth a try.

[gns]

Steve,

I don't know about the R1800, but the R800 is very poor at feeding the heavier matte papers. Could be an issue you want to check out first.

Cheers,
Gary

[dazedgonebye]

Steve,

I don't know about the R1800, but the R800 is very poor at feeding the heavier matte papers. Could be an issue you want to check out first.

Cheers,
Gary


Thanks Gary,

So far I've had not problems with feeding paper, but I haven't tried anything heavier than Epson's heavy matte and OHP transparency.

[RayPA]

I've got two printers, an Epson 2200 (b&w-dedicated, using MIS inkset and QTR) and an Epson R2400 loaded with the K3 inks. I just ordered the b&w MIS ink cartridges for the R2400 to try it out. Both are very nice printers that produce fine prints.

[tbarker13]

Ray,

Are you talking about UT-3D inks for the 2400 for B&W?
I'm waiting on a set of those to arrive myself.

Or are you talking about a different inkset?

[Tuolumne]

What is RIP software?

/T

[kaiyen]

Steve - the 3K method for the R1800, the one you mentioned, is the way to go if you have one of those printers. For me, I'm either getting a 3800 or going the K-14 route with a 1400. I am fine with a dedicated since I do my color printing elsewhere. But the 3K route works wonderfully from the prints I've seen as the head and nozzles are made for pigments and a 1.5 picoliter - that's some small drops.

A RIP is a raster image processor. Imaging a printer driver, which gives you control over most of your usual printer settings, on steroids and with ridiculous control. That's a RIP. QTR is one designed specifically for B&W printing by a photographer named Roy Harrington out here in the bay area.

Englewood? I grew up in Edgewater and my mother lives in Fort Lee now.

[RayPA]

Ray,

Are you talking about UT-3D inks for the 2400 for B&W?
I'm waiting on a set of those to arrive myself.

Or are you talking about a different inkset?

Actually, I'm going to try the K4 inks, which are replacements for LK and LLK, but includes an EZW cartridge for the yellow position (3 cartridges). I run UT7 in the 2200, but I'm also going to try the UT Bowhaus/QTR inkset.

.

[sam_m]

Been using the epson r2400 without complaints, the new baryta papers are great on this, been using a lot of harman gloss fb al. and appartently the ilford gold fibre silk is just as good, a bit warmer white and s#@tloads cheaper.

[jmkelly]

I have been using a lowly HP8050 with the black (96) and gray (100) cartridges and been surprised by the results - considering the low buy-in. I'm not printing over 8x10 so the small size is not a limitation. Prints on glossy paper show even tones wiht very little bronzing. When I (or the kids) want to do color it is easy enough to switch cartridges, but costs some ink to re-align and clean the cartridges.

[mh2000]

I struggled with the aftermarket inks for a number of years before Epson and HP started offering b&w options. From the R2400 on Epson pigments have done great b&w, all HP's using a gray cartridge do great b&w prints as well. The HP + HP Premium Plus papers last longer than the Epson pigments (go to Wilhelm Institue for the details). Epson allows you to choose many nice fiber based papers while the HP requires HP papers only for archival prints. I have a HP 8750 now (cost $299)... otherwise I would have bought a R3800 (which my friend has). We have had many print-off contests between the two systems and neither comes out the clear winner... since I personally like the HP Photo Satin... using one paper keeps things simple. My friend likes his endless search for "the best" paper so he enjoys the Epson... both are capable of beautiful b&w prints out of the box.

[dazedgonebye]

Update...

I got my 3MK inks in from inkseller.com and am printing on the R1800 using the Quadtone RIP program to control things.
All I can say is "Wow." Those are the best black and white prints I've ever managed. Far better than what the R1800 can do with its own inks and better, I believe, than I got out of a borrowed R2400.
I'm happy with the results, even on the relatively cheap Epson Enhanced Matt paper I'm using. I'm looking now for a better paper and I've already ordered more ink. (I'm not running out yet, but I know I'll be printing more since they look so good.)

[gns]

Steve,

Good to hear. Did you try this sight-unseen or had you seen samples beforehand?
I'd consider something like this but would sure like to see some real world results first.
Is anyone interested in providing or exchanging samples with others?
I would be happy to send anyone a sample of one of my prints with the HP.

Paper choice is probably worth a thread of its own. I like Epson's Ultra Smooth Fine Art myself. Also using some Hanemuhle Photo rag.

Cheers,
Gary

[dazedgonebye]

Steve,

Good to hear. Did you try this sight-unseen or had you seen samples beforehand?
I'd consider something like this but would sure like to see some real world results first.
Is anyone interested in providing or exchanging samples with others?
I would be happy to send anyone a sample of one of my prints with the HP.

Paper choice is probably worth a thread of its own. I like Epson's Ultra Smooth Fine Art myself. Also using some Hanemuhle Photo rag.

Cheers,
Gary

I just found a write up and went for it. The inks are cheaper than the epson inks they replace and I did not have to invest in a continuous feed system. The simplicity of just swapping out three carts and giving it a try for $35 in ink was pretty compelling.
I've read so much on the finicky nature of aftermarket systems that cheap and simple seemed worth a try.
I should note that I also picked this because I already had a R1800. I'm not supposing that this is the best absolute system, just a very good option for R1800 owners.
Now, if I could just work out how to make toned prints.

[John Rountree]

I have been asking this question for a couple of years now. After reading the photo-i review comparing the Epson 2400, HP8850(?) and the Canon 9500. I previously had a Canon ip5000 and was very happy with it, just like an earlier poster, but it stopped feeding the paper, so... Anyway, I chose the Canon 9500 and I am absolutely delighted with the results. I know you have made the choice for Epson, and I am glad you are happy with it. But, as this thread shows, right now, there is probably no definitive answer. Any printer will take some time to sort out, but with a little patience I think any of the printers mentioned can give someone a good b&w print. Remember too, the printer is only half of the equation. The paper you use also has an enormous impact on the quality and appearance of the final print.

[KEH]

The Epson 2400 produces very good BW. I find I prefer printing with the ordinary driver, rather than 'Advanced BW' because it is easier to get a match between screen and print. You have the option of printing BW or colour without swapping inks, and you can do glossy by switching black inks.

I have been using the ConeColor continuous inking system for a while and am very pleased with the results. The 2400 absolutely guzzles ink...

Cheers,
Kirk