View Full Version : I never cease to be amazed
oftheherd
07-06-2008, 14:29
I have been watching a Welta Superfekta on Ebay. It is the 6x9 as well as 6x6 model. Because the 6x9 models seem even more rare than the straight 6x6 like I have, I expected it to go for a lot, but was watching and hoping it might be something I could spring for.
However, as can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250264839650&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015 it went sky high. $579.00 is hard to believe, even for one of those. Or is it? I think this is the first I have seen. The 6x6 aren't common by any means, but I don't recall having seen the 6x9 anywhere.
I didn't even know they eisted until our own Chippy talked about his. But $579.00, wow.
Btw, I put this here as the Superfekta is a folder, it not RF, and I didn't see the TLR forum I thought existed here. We seem to sort of post old folders of any ilk here. Mods, feel free to move this if you think if appropriate.
Its a very rare camera and had it had a better lens it would have gone for more. Its a collector camera - very cool design. And looks to be in a good condition - one in that auction. While I'd like to have one of those - it would be for it to sit on a shelf - not for actual use. I'd be afraid to damage it. Plus there are other good 6x9 cameras that can perform better. I saw that auction too and if it had a better lens I'd bid too. For the price it sold - it should have had a better lens than a triplet. I suppose someone really really wanted one. I've seen these pop up and sell for about 3-400 USD with this lens. But with a good lens it can reach 1K depending on condition. I like Weltas and have a couple and their folders with coupled RF are a better choice if you are looking for a camera to actually use. Too bad they didnt make many. I personally think their folders are the best vintage cameras. I tried many and only ones I have now are Weltas. And I use them , not just store in a cabinet.
Here is one of my Weltas:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1022/1458096239_4b5670b45e.jpg
and here is a pic from it - not bad for a camera from 1930's:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/87/255951141_6638a1d6dd_b.jpg
(sorry, large pic so you can see how much detail it can deliver at 2.8 wide open)
dazedgonebye
07-07-2008, 07:33
Well, a folding TLR is something I've never seen before.
I'm always amazed at the many ways in which a problem can be approached.
i have to agree i think the Welta, more particularly the Weltur, Weltini and Welti are the best pre-war folders (buts thats just my opinon) and as for the Perfekta (the 6x6 you have is this oftheherd) and Superfekta --well they are kind of unique anyway!
i watched that action as well just for curiosity, i am not sure if the buyer or others realised but the shutter on it was/is not origonal and should of kept the price down considerably. it was a shutter from a Welta obviously but the shutter that goes on the Superfekta is completly different and looks very classy. the lens may well of been from the origonal camera as the serial number was close to what year it should have been but i couldnt read what the veiwing lens number was to see if they were close (which they would normaly be). the other thing i noticed with that Superfekta was that out of all the pictures he had of it none were with the waistlevel finda popped up..that is the most delicate part of these cameras and should sound a caution signal to a prospective buyer
funny this post should pop up as i have just this evening been going through the origonal patents and drawings of the Superfekta (and a few others). i am still trying to figure out how to change the mirror in mine..its proving to be a real difficulty. the Perfecta (6x6) model is easy but until i can change the Superfekta mirror i am afraid it is a sit on the shelf camera :-(
thats a real drawback to buying one of these if the intent is to use it as the mirrors 70+ years on arent usualy that good.
incidently there was a Perfekta just sold recently as well--it got to around $156 i think it was but it really was a scrap heap-beyond restoration as it was missing parts all over, including the correct lens. the owner had painted it black and was leading ppl to think it was good....i looked at it thinking maybe there would be some parts of vaule in it but really there was hardly anything worth salvaging.
oftheherd
07-07-2008, 10:58
Krosys - Very nice photo. Indeed the Weltas take good photos.
Chippy, I can certainly agree with the Weltini and Welti from personal experience. The first 35mm camera I used extensively was a Welti. I put a lot of film through it. The Weltur I am not sure. I forget if that is a RF or not. I think I have the Weltur and it is not. Correct me if I am wrong.
At any rate, I do like Weltas as users. I keep a Welti or Weltini in my car and often take out my 6x6. Even though I have the 645 mask, I usually use it at 6x6. I prefer the extra negative room and my Epson scanner gets confused with 645 and tries to combine two of them in weird ways.
FallisPhoto
07-07-2008, 12:32
I have been watching a Welta Superfekta on Ebay. It is the 6x9 as well as 6x6 model. Because the 6x9 models seem even more rare than the straight 6x6 like I have, I expected it to go for a lot, but was watching and hoping it might be something I could spring for.
However, as can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250264839650&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015 it went sky high. $579.00 is hard to believe, even for one of those. Or is it? I think this is the first I have seen. The 6x6 aren't common by any means, but I don't recall having seen the 6x9 anywhere.
I didn't even know they eisted until our own Chippy talked about his. But $579.00, wow.
Btw, I put this here as the Superfekta is a folder, it not RF, and I didn't see the TLR forum I thought existed here. We seem to sort of post old folders of any ilk here. Mods, feel free to move this if you think if appropriate.
Almost makes me wish I had bought the one in England that went for about $20 last month.
oftheherd
07-07-2008, 15:31
Almost makes me wish I had bought the one in England that went for about $20 last month.
Almost? Almost??
You have to be kidding, right? Especially with your love of folders.
They are a different camera to use. I enjoy using mine once in a while, just for something different to do, and for stares if there are "real" photographers around. :D
I have a weltur 35mm camera. Does it have a good reputation? I have used it only once a while ago.
The names for the various Welta-Werke-Kamera models can be confusing unless your a bit of a fan (i forget the name/word for it oftherherd called it way back lol). as they have many names for thier camera models that begin with W and also they changed the name of the company several times but were largly known just as Welta.
Raid and oftheherd the Weltur model is the one pictured in Krosya's post; it is 6x6 or 6x4,5 with a mask inserted and a coupled rangefinder, the Welti is a 35mm candid camera but of good quality for its time, many people compare it to the Kodak Retina 1 as they are simular cameras (without rangefinder) there are also a ton of different models depending on year of manufacture and level of features available on them. the Weltini is a 35mm camera with a coupled rangefinder and IMO is about the best pre-war 35mm unless you could afford a leica.
i could perhaps post some snap shots of the various models if anyone wants them
Raid i beleive all (well many) pre-war welta have a good reputation, although on many of their cameras they could be purchased with specs ranging from low affordable consumer atributes to models with s/xenon, leitz elmar, the best shutters and helical focusing. its often because a welta was available with the best lenses at the time that made them a real choice to a SuperIkonta or even a Leica. the quality of the pre-war Welta cameras is as good or better than any othe maker at the time or since
I have a Welta Garant 6x9 folder like this one (http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00L/00Lkts-37295684.JPG), but in black finish with a plain Compur Shutter (1sec.-1/250sec.) and a Meyer-Görlitz Trioplan F/4.5 10,5cm lens. Judging by the lens, shutter and lack of rangefinder, this must have been a middle range camera, but the construction is really first rate. I use it stopped down for landscape work and it delivers superb pictures. It's also the smallest 6x9 in my collection, the only one truly pocketable, even when I don't wear a jacket!
Cheers!
Abbazz
oftheherd
07-08-2008, 00:57
I have a weltur 35mm camera. Does it have a good reputation? I have used it only once a while ago.
Chippy has stated it well I think. I really like Weltas myself. I think if you take yours out and exercise it a bit you will be pleasantly surprised. Look at Krosya's photo.
I don't have a MF Welta RF, but do have the Weltini. I started 35mm photography with a Welti. It is a great little camera. I usuall keep one in my car. The Weltini is a little larger and heavier. I still like it too.
Try yours.
Here a cousin to your Welta Garant- also 6x9 but with coupled RF - Weltur:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2167/2127127721_6c272452cd.jpg
This one is very nice and rather uncommon compared to 6x6 Weltur model.
great pics Krosya..of the camera too! gota get me one of those little compact light meters one day
6x9 Superfekta that rotates to landscape or portrait mode and sold for around 4+ years . and the Perfekta 6x6 which sold for around 5+ years both available with with trioplan, tessar and sometimes a xenar
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/superfektalanscape-1.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/100-0006_IMG-1.jpg
like abbazz the Welta garant on the left which was in 39 the highest of their 6x9 folders excepting the Weltur and the Superfekta. then came the Welta Trio followed by the more basic Welta Symbol on the right
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/100-0001_IMG.jpg
this another welta Garant (the back of one) it has what i assume is a dealers lable atatched with an interesting address. Ballin & Rabe Halle S. Adolf Hilter Ring 14 Handelstr. 1 Delitzscherstr. 94
i bet that address aint around anymore!
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/100-0002_IMG-3.jpg
just some ruff ol shot of three of my welta rangefinder's
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/100-0006_IMG-3-1.jpg
Nice Welta family you have there! do you have any photos from Welta TLRs you could post here?
Nice Welta family you have there! do you have any photos from Welta TLRs you could post here?
nah..wish i could! i am still behind the times and havnt got a scanner yet and to make things worse because my kids have taken over my old darkroom (converted to thier own bathroom) i am in the progress of building a new darkroom, by the time i get it going i hate to think how many negs i have to print--they are mounting up!!. also, like i mentioned earlier the superfekta needs a new mirror :-) without it i really cant see a thing through it. i cant wait to get it going to use though. in every other respect it works great....i do have a large welta family lol, i have quite a few others with different lens combinations as well.
FallisPhoto
07-08-2008, 15:08
Almost? Almost??
You have to be kidding, right? Especially with your love of folders.
They are a different camera to use. I enjoy using mine once in a while, just for something different to do, and for stares if there are "real" photographers around. :D
Not kidding. It looked as if it would have needed new bellows. I just didn't want to be bothered with folding up a set right then.
FallisPhoto
07-08-2008, 15:14
nah..wish i could! i am still behind the times and havnt got a scanner yet and to make things worse because my kids have taken over my old darkroom (converted to thier own bathroom) i am in the progress of building a new darkroom, by the time i get it going i hate to think how many negs i have to print--they are mounting up!!. also, like i mentioned earlier the superfekta needs a new mirror :-) without it i really cant see a thing through it. i cant wait to get it going to use though. in every other respect it works great....i do have a large welta family lol, i have quite a few others with different lens combinations as well.
Front-silvered mirrors: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052324
Front-silvered mirrors: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052324
the mirror is not the problem...disasembling the superfekta to replace the mirror is the difficult part
Congratulations on your Welta collection, Andrew. They all look awfully nice :D.
I love the attention to details found in these cameras. For example, the viewfinder on my Welta Garant has a tiny button on the side to adjust parallax compensation. I was quite surprised to find adjustable parallax compensation on such a diminutive viewfinder...
Cheers!
Abbazz
By the way,what do you do if a folder camera does not open up? My Welti sudddenly refused to open. Any tips on what to do?
Congratulations on your Welta collection, Andrew. They all look awfully nice :D.
I love the attention to details found in these cameras. For example, the viewfinder on my Welta Garant has a tiny button on the side to adjust parallax compensation. I was quite surprised to find adjustable parallax compensation on such a diminutive viewfinder...
Cheers!
Abbazz
thanks Abbazz i appreciate it. there were two different Garants available (not counting the various lens/shutter combinations, both have the paralex optical finder (which btw was available as a generic accesrory around 1940 to add onto any camera but they were not of the quality of the one built onto the Garant). one was for a straight 6x9 Garant and the other optical finder also had a switch on the top to move a mask in the veiwfinder to 6x4.5 which some models are also capable of. for instance the one pictured with the unusual address on the back is a straight 6x9 and the other takes 6x4.5 as well.
obviously Welta are a bit of a fasinating for me. particularly because there is so little information on them, the company and the people behind it. there is no end to information about the folk behind leica, balda, viogtlanda, Ziess, Nagel and so forth but i am intrigued by the people that have gone unnoticed behind Welta and there designs...they must of had some imaginative engeneers behind some of their designs and at the same time a certain buisness sence to know that it is important to make a range of cameras to cater for the all important consumer (history has proven that all bar a very companies that didnt cater to the consumer market go bust) but also to the high end amature/pro photog as well. when Germany went through their serious depression in the 20's many companies went bust and as we know zeiss had the buisness sence to combine with those other camera makers giving them the capitol to get through those hard times.
welta along with some others obviously survived and no doubt their export trade and practices helped along with what would appear a company pride in producing a quality product that evolved with what the market wanted.
anyway i have tended to collect welta in an attempt peice together more information on their cameras and history, not all welta cameras or variations of models are in McKeowns or other refferance books and by collecting them i can peice together small amounts of information by dating serial numbers/features and so on. i have also collected probably nearly 95% of all their cameras made from the early 20's, old patents, literature, catalogues etc. but it is a slow process for me to translate from german to english. hehe i just tend to do a page every few weeks. one of these days i will sell off some excess models i have as i have no real need to have duplicate or almost the same models (i have my favourites that i use often) but i am not confortable with selling anything unless it is in good working condition (whats the point!)..for example i have probably a couple of spare 6x9 weltur in fine condition but i want to replace the leather handles and a some spare 6x6 weltur but they all need some sort of fix first as well.
a bit long winded, sorry but if anyone should come across this post in the future and has good info or literature on Welta and/or the people i would love to hear about it...you can send it by personal message if you like.
By the way,what do you do if a folder camera does not open up? My Welti sudddenly refused to open. Any tips on what to do?
i'm afraid without seeing it..it is a little difficult to know. one could assume it is just a spring that has become detatched or broken but the reality may be something else. does it open by pulling it open after depressing the button or is it simply stuck closed.
aslo there are also many different models of Welti, begining with the angled body black models that at first glance look almost identical to the very first retina's...the more common that most people have are the chrome top ones either pre or post-war. while these are simular in build there are some differences and thses details can make a differance particularly if its not a helical focusing model. i have dozens of these things and at some point they will be fixed...along the way perhaps i should take some pictures of their dis and reassembly
FallisPhoto
07-09-2008, 08:38
the mirror is not the problem...disasembling the superfekta to replace the mirror is the difficult part
Why is that a problem? You can't go in through the top, like you would with other TLRs? Looking at your photos, I'm seeing screws, not rivets. Even rivets wouldn't be that much of a problem though, if you have a rotary tool. I think I have three packets of tiny rivets (brass, aluminum, and nickle) and a couple of home-made riveting anvils that I made from auto-body tools (needed something that would get into tight spaces), so replacing them shouldn't be a problem.
FallisPhoto
07-09-2008, 08:48
By the way,what do you do if a folder camera does not open up? My Welti sudddenly refused to open. Any tips on what to do?
If you know where the catch engages the door, you slip a bit of metal in there and push the catch back. Then you fix it before ever closing it again.
the screws you can see are just for the cover plates.
with the smaller Perfekta its just a matter of undoing some screws and basically the top comes off with the glass screen intact, and then you can undo the screws for the tabs holding the mirror and remove it through the open top. but the Superfekta is more complicated, the whole mechanism up the top is complicated. the mirror folds up so the camera can be closed. the whole top with viewing glass also moves forward to fold and also to activate masks that flip into lanscape oriantation. next time i have it partly dismantled where it possible to see it all better perhaps i will send you some pics..fresh eyes and a new approach maybe whats needed
If you know where the catch engages the door, you slip a bit of metal in there and push the catch back. Then you fix it before ever closing it again.
yeah it could be that or depending on what model year its is the helical focusing knob may not of been returned to infinity and is in the way. post war models return automaticaly like the pre-war Weltini. it could also be that it was folded while the shutter was still cocked. depending on the condition and oriantation of the shutter both these things can sometimes cause a hitch
oftheherd
07-09-2008, 16:55
Really enjoy seeing your collection Chippy! I envy you. Thanks for showing them. It is good you are able to translate some. It is indeed long overdue. Hope you get to continue.
Thanks for the tips, guys. I will try to get the cover open.
I got the cover opened. Thanks. I have a Welti 1 35mm camera with a Tessar lens.
oftheherd
07-12-2008, 04:03
Raid, if your copy is a usable camera I encourage you to take it out and shoot it. Those old cameras are good. It was the first 35mm I ever used, having taken it over after my father passed away. It is compact, has a good lens, and takes good photos. You won't forget to remove the lens cap since its lens cap is foled out. :D
The only thing that is perhaps unusual is that you have to estimate distance and set that prior to taking your photo. It is easy to get used to that. But it is so easy to carry, and takes such good photos, you should enjoy it.
When you find you like it, there are a lot of other Weltas for you to enjoy, to include range finders. Beware the GAS. :D :D
When you find you like it, there are a lot of other Weltas for you to enjoy, to include range finders. Beware the GAS. :D :D
sheeze i hear ya there, i sometimes wish i had never came across a Welta! my back pocket would be a whole lot happier if i didnt...hmm , still i coundn't bring myself to part with them.
Raid, if your copy is a usable camera I encourage you to take it out and shoot it. Those old cameras are good. It was the first 35mm I ever used, having taken it over after my father passed away. It is compact, has a good lens, and takes good photos. You won't forget to remove the lens cap since its lens cap is foled out. :D
The only thing that is perhaps unusual is that you have to estimate distance and set that prior to taking your photo. It is easy to get used to that. But it is so easy to carry, and takes such good photos, you should enjoy it.
i have to agree, i always find it just amazing how competent, useful and fun they are to use,...really!. it takes a bit to drag me away from a rangefinder model, but once i have, i always enjoy a day out with the welti.. if you dont like scale focusing all the time you can just set it to hyperfocal distance scale and shoot. sometimes its just good fun to get back to bare basic photography! although not ness here on RFF, but just how many people would buy a leica and only use or have a 50mm lens. the Welti was designed for candid photography -to a budget-but with excellent lens and qualatiy. it must of been a cherished tool by the people back in those days.
no doubt oftheherd you have seen a mixture of some candid, thoughtful and happy memories from your fathers Welti
I started photography with my father's Zeiss Contina. It also had no rangefinder, and I am used to guessing distances. In fact, sometimes I check my RF cameras out by first guessing the distances and then using the RF to measure the distance. My wife gets annoyed each time when I ask her "do you think the distance from me to the clock is 15 ft?"
My Welti 1 is very clean looking.
oftheherd
07-12-2008, 10:34
...
no doubt oftheherd you have seen a mixture of some candid, thoughtful and happy memories from your fathers Welti
I did that. I don't know where my father got it, from a store or someone in his camera club. I think he used it fairly often. I know it was a pre-war model, and we just presumed it had been "liberated" from someone there by the owner previous to my father. I remember it had the name Hurvitz scratched on the inside of the door.
I used it my first year in Junior College, then after I joined the US Army, I used it often there. As I have mentioned before, it was not only my normal camera, but also it was often used as a crime scene camera in Vietnam. I wasn't using a light meter then. I just went by the film data sheet or experience.
It finally started leaving a scratch on film, and I wasn't smart enough to try and fix it with croakus cloth or something. When we had the house fire, sadly it was also one that didn't survive. When I discovered ebay, I looked around and got the one I have now. That is where I got my 3 Weltinis as well.
Raid, I am sure you will be surprised at the good photos you get, and also how easy it is to carry and use.
you have led an interesting life oftherherd! sorta like CSI on TV, i dont suppose you were lucky enough to have the voluptuous and pretty female sidekicks :D
imagine what they would think nowadays if you rocked up to a crime scene with a Welta Welti :eek:
three Wetini's!!! is that because you are fan or because its a bit hit and miss to get a good one--at least i found it difficult in particular to find the first model weltini in good working order--there was always something wrong with them. the Weltini II i find is a easier to get in good working condition.
so which model do you have; the first is a great retro looking model (the small one i pictured earlier next to its Mum and Dad Weltur's) and if you get one in good working order (linkages are often the main problem) they are great. IMO probably the best fixed lens 35mm pre-war any normal person could get. at least until the Weltini II came out. they cost around $120 US, the next step up was a Leica IIIa (g) w/Elmar for arond $142 with the advantage of interchangable lenses. here's a pic of my Weltini II w/Elmar. i should of given it a clean, its actually very shiny chrome and new looking but all my smudgy figermarks are showing up in the photo.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/100-0007_IMG_2a-1.jpg
oftheherd
07-14-2008, 16:16
That's a nice looker there Chippy. Mine look a little more scuffed.
My reason for three is pretty much a conbination of what you said. I had three; the first was more of a fixer than I planned. The shutter was stuck and the linkage was messsed up. The next two were nicer and users. I just got another as I have long wanted an f/2 and now I have it. I don't think I will be buying any more. I only got the f/2 as it was an f/2 and a good price.
You did hit the nail on the head in that I didn't have voluptuous sidekicks. No such luck. :D But I did manage to pick up a nice wife along the way som 30 years ago, and that is better. But we did use the forensics like CSI and that became a specialty about my last ten years.
My Welti and my main Weltini get a lot of use. They aren't the only things I use, but one of them is usually close at hand.
FallisPhoto
07-14-2008, 16:21
i have to agree, i always find it just amazing how competent, useful and fun they are to use,...really!. it takes a bit to drag me away from a rangefinder model, but once i have, i always enjoy a day out with the welti.. if you dont like scale focusing all the time you can just set it to hyperfocal distance scale and shoot. sometimes its just good fun to get back to bare basic photography! although not ness here on RFF, but just how many people would buy a leica and only use or have a 50mm lens. the Welti was designed for candid photography -to a budget-but with excellent lens and qualatiy. it must of been a cherished tool by the people back in those days.
no doubt oftheherd you have seen a mixture of some candid, thoughtful and happy memories from your fathers Welti
Yeah, if you've ever tried a Welti, any other folding scale focusing camera is going to be a disappointment.
That's a nice looker there Chippy. Mine look a little more scuffed.
My reason for three is pretty much a conbination of what you said. I had three; the first was more of a fixer than I planned. The shutter was stuck and the linkage was messsed up. The next two were nicer and users. I just got another as I have long wanted an f/2 and now I have it. I don't think I will be buying any more. I only got the f/2 as it was an f/2 and a good price.
You did hit the nail on the head in that I didn't have voluptuous sidekicks. No such luck. :D But I did manage to pick up a nice wife along the way som 30 years ago, and that is better. But we did use the forensics like CSI and that became a specialty about my last ten years.
My Welti and my main Weltini get a lot of use. They aren't the only things I use, but one of them is usually close at hand.
the f2 xenon really is the choice lens imo (and the more expensive option in the day), which is saying something considering the other choices were Elmar (which is the scarcer one to find now) Tessar, xenar. The Xenon is probably comparable to the Leitz Summar.
there have been a few weltini's with xenon available just lately on the bay hey! sometimes one wont show up for months on end and then like this recently there were a whole series to be had.
even the Welti was available with the Xenon pre-war ,i have a 37-38 welti with one which seems fairly uncommon although many advertisments have one pictured. i also have the very first Welti (usually said to have been introduced early 1935 but i have two that are made earlier) with a Xenon f2 as well, which i think is kinda special considering the main competition back then was the new/first kodak retina 117 which is of course an excellent camera as well but it was not available with this type of lens.
Definately! finding a lovely wife along the way is way better :)
oftheherd
07-15-2008, 09:39
Well, I am sure looking forward to getting it and trying it out. An f/2 in one of those old folders is neat to think about, and RF too. Subways here I come! :D :D
Now what do I do with 4 Weltinis, 3 of which work well?
FallisPhoto
07-16-2008, 07:11
Well, I am sure looking forward to getting it and trying it out. An f/2 in one of those old folders is neat to think about, and RF too. Subways here I come! :D :D
Now what do I do with 4 Weltinis, 3 of which work well?
Well, if you want to give one away, even the one that doesn't work well, I'll take it. It will work well when I get done with it.
oftheherd
07-18-2008, 04:44
Well, if you want to give one away, even the one that doesn't work well, I'll take it. It will work well when I get done with it.
At least I would know it would be a working camera in a loving home. :D
However, I still fancy trying to get things back to working order myself. Someday. I may have to retire to have time. 11 hour days don't help my photo hobby.
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