View Full Version : Paypal rules???
I have been using paypal since 2001 and have never had a single problem until the new rule changes.
I sold a camera advertised "as is" for parts or repair only. The buyer didn't bother to read the item description before bidding and filed a complaint with paypal when he got a non-working camera. He claimed in his paypal dispute that it was advertised as in full working condition otherwise he would not have bought.
Even though paypal agreed with me they told him to return it to me for a full refund. I have refused to comply and removed my credit card and bank info from paypal and notified my bank to refuse any debit from paypal. I currently have .33 cents in my account after transferring it to my bank account. As a result I will probably lose my paypal account.
Are we now supposed to protect the buyer from his/her own stupidity by giving them a refund when they don't read the description??
Highway 61
07-06-2008, 13:46
If the complaint ends with PayPal closing the case in favor of the buyer, having removed your credit card and bank account data from your PayPal account won't be enough - you will be prosecuted by PayPal with a debt recovery procedure (recovery of the "as is" camera sum for the refund to the buyer plus high PayPal debts recovery fees).
Even closing your PayPal account wouldn't be enough for you to get rid of that case.
Sad but true. This has happened to two friends of mine.
Best advice is now : never ever accept PayPal as a payment method when you are a seller if you don't want this to have the least chance to happen.
kshapero
07-06-2008, 13:49
I think you are taking it too personal. Buying and selling always carries some risk that somebody didn't read the fine print. i would have just done the guy a refund and moved on. PayPal or any other money service has no way of knowing who is right or wrong. Somebody has to give. How would you feel if the fine print said it was mint and you were the buyer. Then when you got the item is was a piece of crap. Wouldn't you like them to go to bat for you? Mistakes happen. Patch things up. No service is perfect but generally speaking PayPal works. IMHO.
sunsworth
07-06-2008, 13:50
Best advice is now : never ever accept PayPal as a payment method when you are a seller if you don't want this to have the least chance to happen.
That's no longer possible. From the 3rd of June you've had to offer Paypal as a payment option.
It stinks IMHO, but there you are.
If the complaint ends with PayPal closing the case in favor of the buyer,
Paypal found in MY favor saying I did nothing wrong but told the buyer to return the camera.
In other words the complaint was closed in my favor but they still wanted me to give a refund which I am refusing to do.
I have already returned to sender the package refusing to accept it..
That's no longer possible. From the 3rd of June you've had to offer Paypal as a payment option.
It stinks IMHO, but there you are.
I have 3 auctions up right now without the paypal option..
Highway 61
07-06-2008, 13:55
I have already returned to sender the package refusing to accept it..If the sender (now the recipient) refuses the package as well and returns it to you at your own cost, that USPS table tennis match may cost you more than what you sold your "as is" camera for on eBay...
:D
I think you are taking it too personal.
Maybe... but the buyer has called me a liar by claiming I changed the auction description after the auction ended..
If the sender (now the recipient) refuses the package as well and returns it to you at your own cost, that USPS table tennis match may cost you more than what you sold your "as is" camera for on eBay...
:D
I refused to accept the package from the postman so it was returned at no cost to me..and I filed a complaint with the postmaster so if he does return it it will be treated as harassment..
sunsworth
07-06-2008, 14:02
I have 3 auctions up right now without the paypal option..
Maybe they haven't rolled it out in the States yet? Read 'permitted' in the following link and be afraid...
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html
That's no longer possible. From the 3rd of June you've had to offer Paypal as a payment option.
It stinks IMHO, but there you are.
I am not clear what you mean.. Does ebay require you to use PP? That blows.
sunsworth
07-06-2008, 14:09
I am not clear what you mean.. Does ebay require you to use PP? That blows.
From the eBay link I quoted. This is a direct quote...
Permitted
Sellers may offer to accept:
* PayPal (all sellers must offer PayPal in their listings)
* Credit cards (including MasterCard, Visa, Amex), debit cards, and bank electronic payments
* Bank-to-bank transfers, often known as bank wire transfers or bank cash transfers
* Cash for in-person transactions
...so you can offer other means of payment, but you _must_ offer Paypal.
There's been a thread on this on the LUF, needless to say people aren't happy.
nikonhswebmaster
07-06-2008, 14:10
I refused to accept the package from the postman so it was returned at no cost to me..and I filed a complaint with the postmaster so if he does return it it will be treated as harassment..
Currently, unless it changed without my notice, Paypal is not required in the US, since it would clearly be against US law.
However who knows, they might try it.
Maybe they haven't rolled it out in the States yet? Read 'permitted' in the following link and be afraid...
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html
What you are referring to is paypal is required if selling to bidders in the UK and Australia. But it is not required when selling elsewhere.
Below is the actual eBay rule. Note it says "for a specific listing"
"Effective March 2008, sellers may be required to offer PayPal or a merchant credit card as one of the payment methods for a specific listing."
I am not clear what you mean.. Does ebay require you to use PP? That blows.
It only affects UK and Australian sellers. The only time a US seller is required to offer paypal is when selling to the above countries..
sunsworth
07-06-2008, 14:18
Currently, unless it changed without my notice, Paypal is not required in the US, since it would clearly be against US law
It looks as if you are correct. According to the US payment page...
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html
...Paypal isn't mandatory. So eBay only appear to be trying to gain extra revenue from non-US buyers (I haven't checked the other eBay sites so I don't know how widespread this is).
Hopefully the EU will fine the pants off eBay for trying this. Ebay have already had to pay fines or tens of thousands of Euros for offering fake fashion items. Hopefully there'll be a couple of noughts added to that.
35mmdelux
07-06-2008, 14:34
After 360 trades I no longer do much business on eBay. They are like dictators and reach in your pocket before and after the sale. Ebay integrity stinks anymore.
Hopefully the EU will fine the pants off eBay for trying this. Ebay have already had to pay fines or tens of thousands of Euros for offering fake fashion items. Hopefully there'll be a couple of noughts added to that.
Actually Ebay was fined €30 millions ... last week by a French court as they listed counterfeited items and did not comply with dealer distribution laws. The group suing them was LVMH (Louis Vitton). It will be appealed by Ebay but if the judgement stand, it will be a hard hit on Ebay business model.
David Murphy
07-06-2008, 14:47
For those new to selling, be advised that this is a common story. PayPal "buyer protection" is paid for by sellers.
I have been using paypal since 2001 and have never had a single problem until the new rule changes.
I sold a camera advertised "as is" for parts or repair only. The buyer didn't bother to read the item description before bidding and filed a complaint with paypal when he got a non-working camera. He claimed in his paypal dispute that it was advertised as in full working condition otherwise he would not have bought.
Even though paypal agreed with me they told him to return it to me for a full refund. I have refused to comply and removed my credit card and bank info from paypal and notified my bank to refuse any debit from paypal. I currently have .33 cents in my account after transferring it to my bank account. As a result I will probably lose my paypal account.
Are we now supposed to protect the buyer from his/her own stupidity by giving them a refund when they don't read the description??
kshapero
07-06-2008, 14:48
Maybe... but the buyer has called me a liar by claiming I changed the auction description after the auction ended..
Oh that sucks, now it's war!!
For those new to selling, be advised that this is a common story. PayPal "buyer protection" is paid for by sellers.
It won't happen to me again. I've been looking for an excuse to drop paypal to save on fees and now I have that excuse.
Only problem by not offering paypal is I can't sell to Australian or UK buyers.
nikonhswebmaster
07-06-2008, 14:54
PayPal is acting as your agent, between you and the credit card company. It gives you no right to deal directly with the credit card company. Ebay cannot force anyone in the US to use a credit card over US currency in the form of a US postal money order.
This was tested in court years ago when automobile rental agencies tried to force everyone to use a credit card. I do not think ebay would attempt it, they would surely lose in court.
I simply will not use eBay if paypal is required on large purchases, I am not going to accept a chargeback on a $2000 camera.
Oh that sucks, now it's war!!
That's not the point..why should I have to lose money because the buyer was too stupid to read the description and then be untruthful? In addition since I won the dispute why did paypal tell the buyer to return it for a refund?
As I stated in my original post "Are we now supposed to protect the buyer from his/her own stupidity by giving them a refund when they don't read the description??"
David Murphy
07-06-2008, 15:09
You can use Western Union Cash direct to you for overseas sales if your buyer agrees. I've done it for a few overseas buyers in countries that have a lot of PayPal fraud. PayPal/eBay prohibit this form of payment cause it's not "safe" i.e. they don't make a dime off it.
Also many countries have reciprocal agreements with their postal money orders, e.g. Canada. This means the US Post office will cash the international postal money order they've sent to you - I've done it and it works like a charm and costs you nothing. eBay won't tell you about this and a lot of sellers are not even aware of this option. Most US banks won't touch these money orders without their usual gangster fees, but good old USPS comes through. There are many countries participating in this - check the USPS Web site for details.
It won't happen to me again. I've been looking for an excuse to drop paypal to save on fees and now I have that excuse.
Only problem by not offering paypal is I can't sell to Australian or UK buyers.
Highway 61
07-06-2008, 15:12
One year ago I sold a quite rare (and like new) Contax RF Carl Zeiss Planar 35/3.5 lens on eBay, and the auction high bidder was a gentleman from Taïwan.
He paid with PayPal and all went fine, I shipped recorded and insured, he received his lens flawlessly, then left me positive feedback and the like.
Strange thing is that a few days after he had paid for his item, PayPal restricted my PayPal account for 6 months (their excuse was that they were doing this to every low-activity account to fight against the ghosty PayPal accounts used to clear fraudulent money blah blah blah) so that I couldn't close my PayPal account eventually.
Since the delay for a possible chargeback from that buyer in Taïwan was six months - come yourself to the conclusion.
All went back to normal after I provided PayPal several data about me and my activities by fax.
I very strongly suspect that I was mentioned to somebody at PayPal by the second high bidder, a famous "eBay Power Seller" vintage RF gear collector in the UK who bids on many items at the very last minute thanks to a 'bot of his and absolutely wanted my lens, and had sent me several nasty emails after the sale, warning me about all the problems I would have to face now that I was about to sell the lens to someone in Asia, since - according to his own words - everybody in Asia are scammers etc.
I have 100% positive feedback at eBay with 523 records (opened both my eBay and PayPal accounts in 2001, like Colyn), but with their new rules I am now quite reluctant to sell through them.
I have 100% positive feedback at eBay with 523 records (opened both my eBay and PayPal accounts in 2001, like Colyn), but with their new rules I am now quite reluctant to sell through them.
Currently my eBay count is at 577 with 100% positive and none of my buyers had any problems with the transaction. I suspect though this buyer will leave a negative but then it only takes one person who doesn't read the item description to screw things up..
I won't have to worry about him now since he is now in my blocked bidder list..
Edit: I just picked up another positive hit for 578....
sunsworth
07-06-2008, 15:41
The only negative feedback I have on eBay is from someone who won the auction for an M2 and then refused to pay because it was too expensive! I left negative feedback and he retaliated. The M2 was relisted and sold for a similar price to another buyer.
The only negative feedback I have on eBay is from someone who won the auction for an M2 and then refused to pay because it was too expensive! I left negative feedback and he retaliated. The M2 was relisted and sold for a similar price to another buyer.
A couple of years ago I bid and won a Leica IIIc body from a US seller who said he would send an invoice with total including shipping. His shipping charge on the invoice was $250.00 which I refused. He then threatened to leave a non-paying bidder strike but I filed a complaint with eBay who then suspended his eBay access for overcharging for shipping.
I didn't get the camera but I also didn't get a negative either..
tbarker13
07-06-2008, 16:58
While I may not like dealing with paypal as a seller, I sure do prefer it when I'm buying.
I bought a 35 summicron recently from an ebay powerseller in Canada who said - in his ad - that he accepted paypal. But when he sent me the invoice, he didn't offer paypal as an option. When I pushed him, he wanted me to pay an extra 4 percent to cover his paypal fees - which is a no-no for sellers on ebay.
He wanted a check or money order. But eventually, he relented and shipped the lens for the price I had agree to pay when i won the auction.
If I am buying something that expensive from a complete stranger, I like knowing that paypal will support me if there is a problem.
When I sell, I always offer a money-back guarantee (minus shipping). I think it derails a lot of potential problems.
mabelsound
07-06-2008, 17:01
Customer is always right. Accept the return.
I have more than 700 eBay transactions, and always pay the fees to eBay and PayPal happily. These services make my life easier, and I think they're worth it. If you don't, you're right to dump the services. But you should definitely let the buyer return the camera. It's a pain, but you will thank yourself for taking the high road, and giving in regardless of blame.
For a while, when I first started on eBay, I got really pissed at unreasonable people. But people are inherently unreasonable, and every since I decided to just give in whenever someone complained, I have been a happy eBayer.
Go zen. Give the idiot what he wants, and do it with a smile, then get on with your life.
My .02!
David Murphy
07-06-2008, 17:11
Customer is always right. Accept the return.
I have more than 700 eBay transactions, and always pay the fees to eBay and PayPal happily. These services make my life easier, and I think they're worth it. If you don't, you're right to dump the services. But you should definitely let the buyer return the camera. It's a pain, but you will thank yourself for taking the high road, and giving in regardless of blame.
For a while, when I first started on eBay, I got really pissed at unreasonable people. But people are inherently unreasonable, and every since I decided to just give in whenever someone complained, I have been a happy eBayer.
Go zen. Give the idiot what he wants, and do it with a smile, then get on with your life.
My .02!
I sell less and less on eBay. No need to fork over rapacious sums to those gangsters. There are other places with better, smarter buyers to sell to. RFF is one such venue.
mabelsound
07-06-2008, 17:20
I sell less and less on eBay. No need to fork over rapacious sums to those gangsters. There are other places with better, smarter buyers to sell to. RFF is one such venue.
I think they're worth it. If you don't, you're right to dump the services.
Enough said.
Customer is always right.
I do not nor have I ever accepted this as true..
Accept the return.
Not now or ever!!! I sold it "as is" for parts or repair. He should have read the description before bidding.
I have more than 700 eBay transactions, and always pay the fees to eBay and PayPal happily. These services make my life easier, and I think they're worth it. If you don't, you're right to dump the services. But you should definitely let the buyer return the camera. It's a pain, but you will thank yourself for taking the high road, and giving in regardless of blame.
I don't have a problem with eBay and paypal seller fees just people who bid without reading the description.
For a while, when I first started on eBay, I got really pissed at unreasonable people. But people are inherently unreasonable, and every since I decided to just give in whenever someone complained, I have been a happy eBayer.
I come from a family that was and still is heavily involved in retail business. I was taught to treat the customer fairly but not to give in when he is wrong. In all honesty I could care less if this person is unhappy. By dumping paypal I save money..
mabelsound
07-06-2008, 17:51
I didn't mean you weren't right in principle! You are. The buyer is wrong. But why let this weigh on you? Accept the return, sell it to somebody else, and pretend none of it ever happened. Why throw out a generally useful and successful system of doing business just so you can beat this buyer?
Again, if dumping paypal will make you happier in the long run, then it's the right decision. But if you were confident about this, you wouldn't have complained on the forum.
Some people are jerks. Accepting the return will let you get on with your life, minus a couple of bucks, and you can continue doing business with the 98% of people who aren't jerks.
Zen, I tell ya.
mabelsound
07-06-2008, 17:56
Or think of it this way. You are right. You know you're right. But nothing you can ever say or do will in a million years convince the buyer you're right. So you can piss him off by refusing, and possibly make your life more difficult in the long term if in fact he pursues some legal means of getting his money back. If you're pissed now, you'll be enraged then.
Or you can give him the refund, let him think he's right, let him be happy with his little baby tantrum, and no more problems for you. You'll know you were right forever, isn't that what matters?
Or think of it this way. You are right. You know you're right. But nothing you can ever say or do will in a million years convince the buyer you're right. So you can piss him off by refusing, and possibly make your life more difficult in the long term if in fact he pursues some legal means of getting his money back. If you're pissed now, you'll be enraged then.
Or you can give him the refund, let him think he's right, let him be happy with his little baby tantrum, and no more problems for you. You'll know you were right forever, isn't that what matters?
The point of my original post was not I refuse to refund this person but doesn't it seem odd that paypal would close the dispute in my favor then...without consulting with me tell the buyer he could return it??
I offered him a return minus shipping but his response to that was "go f**k yourself".
An interesting find..I logged into my paypal account a few minutes ago and find it has not been locked nor is it in a negative balance (I still have a balance of .33 cents) even though he has complained that I returned the package and there are no open disputes..
mabelsound
07-06-2008, 18:29
doesn't it seem odd that paypal would close the dispute in my favor then...without consulting with me tell the buyer he could return it??
Yeah, I agree, that's really perverse, and I don't get it.
I didn't realize you'd offered to accept a return minus the shipping--IMHO, that's a very, very reasonable thing to do. If his response was really as you said, I'd forward the email to PayPal...the buyer seems to have lost it.
Anyway, good luck. I don't mean to be contrary, I just usually take a loss in these circumstances to save myself the grief. When things get to this stage, there's generally no good solution.
tbarker13
07-06-2008, 18:37
By dumping paypal I save money..
I know this wasn't the original point. But I'm not sure this is even going to prove to be true. By refusing to take paypal, you run the risk of eliminating a chunk (the big question is how big of a chunk) of potential customers/bidders.
When I see auctions that won't accept paypal, I ignore them. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
It's the same with merchants who refuse to accept credit cards because they don't want to pay those fees. I wonder how many sales they lose because of it.
Yeah, I agree, that's really perverse, and I don't get it.
2 days after closing the dispute paypal notified me that the buyer was returning the item for a full refund. I questioned that but never got a response. I sent another email to paypal today asking why.
I didn't realize you'd offered to accept a return minus the shipping--IMHO, that's a very, very reasonable thing to do. If his response was really as you said, I'd forward the email to PayPal...the buyer seems to have lost it.
When he first contacted me saying the camera was not working like I said it was in the auction description I referred him back to the closed auction description that clearly described it as is for parts or repair he then claimed that I changed the description after the close of the auction which everybody know cannot be done. He continued to harass me till I finally offered a refund minus shipping. That's when he made the statement. He then filed the paypal complaint and I forwarded that email when I responded to the complaint so paypal is aware of his comment.
Anyway, good luck. I don't mean to be contrary, I just usually take a loss in these circumstances to save myself the grief. When things get to this stage, there's generally no good solution.
He decided not to accept my offer of a refund in the beginning so I will no longer offer that as an option.
He sent me several harassing emails which I finally forwarded all of them to his ISP. I have not heard any more from him since.
By refusing to take paypal, you run the risk of eliminating a chunk (the big question is how big of a chunk) of potential customers/bidders.
I'm beginning to wonder if I will lose my paypal account not that I really want it.
I sell on eBay mostly for fun not for profit..so by not using paypal it won't really hurt me.
If I keep paypal it'll probably be used for buying instead of selling since paypal is no longer seller friendly..
I had fun reading this little piece about "Why 'The Customer Is Always Right' Is Wrong (http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/)". The principle doesn't apply to the kind of 1:1 transaction an eBay auction represents, but it is satisfying to me to see this patently ridiculous axiom questioned.
wlewisiii
07-06-2008, 20:08
Colyn,
All I'll say is this - I consider Paypal to be the enemy. They are against both buyer and seller in pursuit of the quarterly wall street profit statement. Sometimes a person has to deal with them, alas, but you always have to realize that Paypal will scr*w all users (buyers, sellers, etc) in favor of quarterly profits. It is not a question of if but rather one of when.
When I have a choice I use USPO money orders because there is a _real_ buyer protection capability there - the threat of federal felony mail fraud prosecution ;) Paypal was, is, and always will be, a sick joke. Keeping that in mind allows one to use it carefully when there is no other option.
Please stick to your decision to never accept them again. It's only by us, the consumer, refusing to be ratfu*ked on a regular basis that we will gain any control over the markets that we use.
William
Al Patterson
07-06-2008, 20:18
Colyn,
All I'll say is this - I consider Paypal to be the enemy. They are against both buyer and seller in pursuit of the quarterly wall street profit statement. Sometimes a person has to deal with them, alas, but you always have to realize that Paypal will scr*w all users (buyers, sellers, etc) in favor of quarterly profits. It is not a question of if but rather one of when.
When I have a choice I use USPO money orders because there is a _real_ buyer protection capability there - the threat of federal felony mail fraud prosecution ;) Paypal was, is, and always will be, a sick joke. Keeping that in mind allows one to use it carefully when there is no other option.
Please stick to your decision to never accept them again. It's only by us, the consumer, refusing to be ratfu*ked on a regular basis that we will gain any control over the markets that we use.
William
Well said. I hate Paypal as well. I also use USPO Money Orders if it is listed as a choice by the seller.
I also use USPO Money Orders if it is listed as a choice by the seller.
As will I.
I can always find what I want or need from someone offering money order payments.
I still have not decided whether or not to keep paypal. It can have advantages is certain situations..but is it worth it????
David Murphy
07-06-2008, 20:29
Colyn,
All I'll say is this - I consider Paypal to be the enemy. They are against both buyer and seller in pursuit of the quarterly wall street profit statement. Sometimes a person has to deal with them, alas, but you always have to realize that Paypal will scr*w all users (buyers, sellers, etc) in favor of quarterly profits. It is not a question of if but rather one of when.
When I have a choice I use USPO money orders because there is a _real_ buyer protection capability there - the threat of federal felony mail fraud prosecution ;) Paypal was, is, and always will be, a sick joke. Keeping that in mind allows one to use it carefully when there is no other option.
Please stick to your decision to never accept them again. It's only by us, the consumer, refusing to be ratfu*ked on a regular basis that we will gain any control over the markets that we use.
William
You've got it absolutely right. Use PayPal judiciously. Most of these words would equally apply to eBay, which of course owns PayPal and is run using the same highly unethical business practices.
myoptic3
07-06-2008, 21:06
I have had my share of problems w/ eBay's double standards and paypal is a rip off. But when I tried to sell things w/o offering paypal it was like pulling teeth to get people to send a money order! Not sure which was worse. I don't understand how the buyer could claim that you changed the item description. After a certain point in the auction (after the first bid I think) you cannot change the item description, just add to the bottom of it. It is also not possible to change the item description after the sale. Sounds open and shut.
But nothing is that simple when dealing w/ these jerks. They are right and you are wrong and that is that in their eyes. So you can either fight the good fight, or just take the camera back and call it over and done w/. Depends on how much monkey business you wish to be involved in, to quote Leon Russell.
I still buy on eBay but I try to sell on here and photo.net. I ask for less money than would be asked on eBay, but it is a lot less hassles. Good luck.
jan normandale
07-06-2008, 21:12
I know this wasn't the original point. But I'm not sure this is even going to prove to be true. By refusing to take paypal, you run the risk of eliminating a chunk (the big question is how big of a chunk) of potential customers/bidders.
When I see auctions that won't accept paypal, I ignore them. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
It's the same with merchants who refuse to accept credit cards because they don't want to pay those fees. I wonder how many sales they lose because of it.
Interestingly I once used Payqal, now I only use MO's for my transactions. Conversely the PP only vendors get no business from me. Recently I asked a seller if I could bid on some film holders that stated he wanted only Pal payment. He looked at my profile and he said yes. Pay pal blocked my bid! He got less than I was prepared to bid. I enquired of Playpal about this being a restriction on achieving a highest and best offer for the vendor. Three months later.. nothing. I've retained my emails.
I could go on about this group however all one needs to do is a search on Pay-up and the screen will show a high hit count. Where there's smoke there is definitely fire IMO.
Quarterly profits come before client groups. It's all about greed.
Even closing your PayPal account wouldn't be enough for you to get rid of that case.
Closing a Paypal account is not allowed as long as all disputes have not been resolved.
As stated by Highway 61, if a buyer has filed a complaint, the owner of the Paypal account will be forced to pay by legal means, even if all money has been withdrawn from the Paypal account.
Cheers!
Abbazz
nikonhswebmaster
07-06-2008, 22:42
Closing a Paypal account is not allowed as long as all disputes have not been resolved.
As stated by Highway 61, if a buyer has filed a complaint, the owner of the Paypal account will be forced to pay by legal means, even if all money has been withdrawn from the Paypal account.
Cheers!
Abbazz
Not a chance that Paypal would prevail in court in NY on this. Nor would they bother. They might however damage your credit.
Don't use paypal for large sales, unless you are willing to lose everything, paypal cannot protect you from a chargeback.
Using paypal for sales is just silly if the item is valuable. I use it all the time for cheap stuff.
tbarker13
07-06-2008, 22:47
But if Paypal was only interested in making money, wouldn't they want the transaction to stand? If a refund is made, Paypal loses the transaction fee, as that is refunded as well.
I don't want to come off as some sort of paypal lackey, but I just think they made a decision at some point to err on the side of the buyer rather than the seller. And it does make sense in one way - the buyer is the one taking the risk. I mean, the payment is the constant. If you send someone $100, it is always going to be worth $100.
But the item being sold is the big unknown. I'm sure we've all purchased things that didn't turn out to be as nice as described.
So if you side with the seller, the worst that happens is everyone starts over. In theory, if the lens, camera, or whatever is worth the selling price, then someone else is likely to pay a similar amount for it.
Siding with the seller would put paypal in the position of having to judge for itself the veracity of auction descriptions. Considering the sheer volume of things being sold on ebay, that would be quite a challenge.
I offered him a return minus shipping
That sounds very honorable, and I don't think you could realistically be expected to do any more.
nikonhswebmaster
07-07-2008, 05:14
But if Paypal was only interested in making money, wouldn't they want the transaction to stand? If a refund is made, Paypal loses the transaction fee, as that is refunded as well.
I don't want to come off as some sort of paypal lackey, but I just think they made a decision at some point to err on the side of the buyer rather than the seller. And it does make sense in one way - the buyer is the one taking the risk. I mean, the payment is the constant. If you send someone $100, it is always going to be worth $100.
But the item being sold is the big unknown. I'm sure we've all purchased things that didn't turn out to be as nice as described.
So if you side with the seller, the worst that happens is everyone starts over. In theory, if the lens, camera, or whatever is worth the selling price, then someone else is likely to pay a similar amount for it.
Siding with the seller would put paypal in the position of having to judge for itself the veracity of auction descriptions. Considering the sheer volume of things being sold on ebay, that would be quite a challenge.
Paypal actually always has to err on the side of the buyer, since if they go with the seller, the credit card company will then just do a chargeback against paypal, and then paypal rather than the seller will be out the money.
It is important to remember that paypal is just a shopping cart system, not the buyer's credit card company.
As stated by Highway 61, if a buyer has filed a complaint, the owner of the Paypal account will be forced to pay by legal means, even if all money has been withdrawn from the Paypal account.
Cheers!
Abbazz
Not true... at least not in Texas.
I contacted the state attorney generals office about this matter last week and was told neither the buyer or paypal has any legal recourse in this matter. If the buyer wants his money back he will have to come to Texas and file a civil case.
Filing fee is $75 which is more than the cost of the item.
Don't use paypal for large sales, unless you are willing to lose everything, paypal cannot protect you from a chargeback.
I suspect since there has been no chargeback to my account he probably paid with available paypal balance or bank debit..
tbarker13
07-07-2008, 06:48
Paypal actually always has to err on the side of the buyer, since if they go with the seller, the credit card company will then just do a chargeback against paypal, and then paypal rather than the seller will be out the money.
Only if the buyer actually uses a credit card. Paypal does its best to convince shoppers to use direct withdrawals from bank accounts when making purchases.
Al Patterson
07-07-2008, 06:55
As will I.
I can always find what I want or need from someone offering money order payments.
I still have not decided whether or not to keep paypal. It can have advantages is certain situations..but is it worth it????
I'm still keeping Paypal for now, but I de-linked my checking account after paypal caused me an overdraft by taking more from my checking account than was in it. And I have a credit card that is solely used for Paypal and a few online bills.
I have used Paypal for a few transactions in the RFF classifieds, and it is certainly easy, but it's worth to me is decreasing over time, so I'll likely close it the next time they hack me off...
There isn't really a good alternative to paypal at the moment. Google seems to have a 'checkout' payment system that I have not tried. It does not seem to be an accepted form of payment on ebay for obvious reasons. Anyone else with experience on this mode of payment to share?
Another thing I hate about Paypal... sometimes, they freeze up you account when they detect you are in a different country. Possibily for security reason. Don't they ever consider that people can travel for work/holidays and may need to pay for items? It was such a hassle for me to arrange for a payment for a 50mm summilux that I am trying to buy. I tried calling their customer hotline and they didn't give any clue either. All they did was to ask me to try again later. After trying for about 36 hours, I figured that the location must be the problem and ask someone at home to send the payment instead. Payment was processed immediately.
Especially for those of us outside of US, Paypal is a necessary evil that we have to put up with for the lack of a credible alternative.
Cheers,
After forwarding all emails sent from the buyer to paypal I have received notice from them today that they (paypal) is going to review the case.
We'll see what happens next.
nikonhswebmaster
07-08-2008, 16:25
There isn't really a good alternative to paypal at the moment. Google seems to have a 'checkout' payment system that I have not tried. It does not seem to be an accepted form of payment on ebay for obvious reasons. Anyone else with experience on this mode of payment to share?
Another thing I hate about Paypal... sometimes, they freeze up you account when they detect you are in a different country. Possibily for security reason. Don't they ever consider that people can travel for work/holidays and may need to pay for items? It was such a hassle for me to arrange for a payment for a 50mm summilux that I am trying to buy. I tried calling their customer hotline and they didn't give any clue either. All they did was to ask me to try again later. After trying for about 36 hours, I figured that the location must be the problem and ask someone at home to send the payment instead. Payment was processed immediately.
Especially for those of us outside of US, Paypal is a necessary evil that we have to put up with for the lack of a credible alternative.
Cheers,
Google checkout can be used with eBay sales (the buyer will have to go to your website, after the sale), but it is a credit card system, and like Paypal they cannot protect you against charge-backs. I use it extensively, but would not recommend it to individual users. That is not it's purpose.
nikonhswebmaster
07-08-2008, 16:29
Only if the buyer actually uses a credit card. Paypal does its best to convince shoppers to use direct withdrawals from bank accounts when making purchases.
Anyone crazy enough to let Paypal have access to a large balance checking account is nuts. If you want a paypal checking account, open a special one at your bank, just for paypal.
As a seller you have no choice, since without a bank account you can only withdraw $500 a month.
pesphoto
07-08-2008, 16:29
After forwarding all emails sent from the buyer to paypal I have received notice from them today that they (paypal) is going to review the case.
We'll see what happens next.
Good luck to you. My wife and I dealt with a nasty Paypal situation a little while back, luckily it worked out ok. I hope it does for you as well.
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