View Full Version : Who's looking forward to the Ikon
Well I certainly am! I just hope the pricing in Australia will be ok after all the distributor margains. Supposidly the RRP here for the Ikon & Standard lens will be A$4000.. now Im not sure what a Leica would cost.. but that price seems to towards their end of the scale.
Still its just such a beutiful looking piece of gear, hopefully some dealers in Asia will be able to offer it mailorder at a more reasonable price.
Zeiss should offer a starter kit with a cheaper 50mm f/3.5 lens (made by Cosina) and team up with a finance company to offer interest free finance and and Ilford to offer a free selection of their films with the camera.
Daniel.
Pherdinand
04-21-2005, 00:33
I'm not. $$$$$
Maybe inb 50 years it will have the same price as the old Zeiss Ikons (Super ikonta, Contax) have today - then i might afford one, heheh
Terence T
04-21-2005, 00:54
With the Bessas around, I'm in no real hurry to check the new Ikon out. The R2A and R3A can't be beat for its value for money and multitude of functions. Im looking forward to the new range of lenses though, particularly the 21/2.8, though I doubt it'd be a very affordable lens.
I do not really care about it, I have the camera bodies I need.
I find the 50/2 and the 25/2.8 lenses interesting though, but will wait a while for some user reports on performance and build quality. I do not like the Zeiss idea of charging a premium for lens hoods rather than tucking them in the box with the lens along with the pouch and external viewfinder (if needed on the body) like Konica do.
Actually, the Zeiss lens's are pretty cheap.. $695-$895 US!!
Daniel.
What I've heard so far about the 35/2 Biogon and as I don't own a M-Mount camera at the moment I'm pretty interested. But I will wait out a digital version.
As to quality, Zeiss QA hasn't let me down in over 20 years.
I'm in the 'wait and see' camp. The ZI is theoretically interesting, but I'll wait for the reviews and user reports.
Gene
I'm waiting on user opinions. From what I've read, it should be interesting - if for nothing else, than for its long RF base and supposedly excellent viewfinder. We'll see.
I'm not the one to rush to become a beta-tester :)
Denis
Hi
I think it's great that another rangefinder is making it to market, the more the better, especially from Zeiss even if it is made by cosina/voigtlander, as long as the Zeiss quality control is there it's not a problem for me.
Wether I buy one is a different matter. I have a big list of camera gear I want and a very small pile money to aquire it with :(
What I really like is how the M mount is once again becoming a standard. Compared to SLR territory, where every two-bit player has there own mount, it gives such a wealth of options. Hopefully someone else will buy the Contax brand and re-introduce it with a M-mount.
Daniel.
Nikon Bob
04-21-2005, 03:51
Nice to see another rangefinder coming out but not much interest from me, only in what the lenses are like (21mm/2.8) and their price point.
Bob
Flyfisher Tom
04-21-2005, 04:10
the cheaper lenses interest me (35/50) but I will wait for more testing (from others). The camera does not interest me, as it provides nothing that the Leica M does not (and will sport the loud metallic shutter clack). The potential for a digital camera body, however, would be most interesting, I would like to see some mutually beneficial competition to the Epson RD-1.
Huck Finn
04-21-2005, 04:42
Well I certainly am! I just hope the pricing in Australia will be ok after all the distributor margains. Supposidly the RRP here for the Ikon & Standard lens will be A$4000.. now Im not sure what a Leica would cost.. but that price seems to towards their end of the scale.
Daniel.
Daniel, does that price include VAT? If it doesn't, it seems way too high to me. If I have the conversion right, that's about $3000 USD. I thought that American prices were the highest in the world on this camera, but even here with a 50/2 lens, it is selling here for under $2500. But you can get an even better price from Robert White in England. And an even better price in your part of the world would be from Hong Kong. Dr. Joseph Yao, the reputable Leica dealer, e-mailed me that he expects the body to be under $1400. With the 50/2 lens, that should be $2100. (e-mail: joseph@yao.com)
Yes, like you, I too am excited about this camera. When people compare to a Bessa, they seem to ignore the absence of 28 mm frame lines. If you want to shoot with a 28 mm lens (and I do), that's an extra $150 for a VC auxiliary finder, which brings today's prices on an R2A or R3A up to $700. And you still have the awkwardness of focusing & composing through 2 different viewfinders & without parallax correction - a real problem if you're using the 28 for shooting people.
Given that niche market products like this are always going to be sold at a premium price, I think that this camera is also great value for the money - just like other Cosina products. The only other camera on the market with this effective base length & 28 mm frame lines will cost well over $3000 USD by this summer. So it would seem that Cosina is once again keeping costs down.
I would share the caution of not buying out of the gate so that they're not working the bugs out on your dime. There is some reassurance on this matter in the media reports that have said that Zeiss has installed its legendary quality control standards. (Traditionally, no spot checking of Zeiss lenses; each one individually inspected & tested.) I would assume that this has added to the price. The other advantage to waiting before buying is that traditionally it takes about 18 months for cameras to settle into their price niche.
I'll offer a challenge to you to see which of us can exercise patience longer. :D
Huck Finn
04-21-2005, 04:47
the cheaper lenses interest me (35/50) but I will wait for more testing (from others). The camera does not interest me, as it provides nothing that the Leica M does not (and will sport the loud metallic shutter clack). The potential for a digital camera body, however, would be most interesting, I would like to see some mutually beneficial competition to the Epson RD-1.
Actually, Tom, it does offer something that the Leica M does not - rangefinder coupled to a minimum focus distance of 0.5 meters (19.5 inches) with most wide angle lenses.
I don't know if I will buy it, most likely not, but I am in line for one of their first 1,500 special introduction editions. The camera is interesting, but like Gene, I personally want to wait and see about it.
The lenses on the other hand are a great reason for GAS in my eyes. The 28 and 35mm lenses would be of most interest to me, don't ask me why, I don't know why, they just are.
This is actually excellent advice as far as I am concerned. Buy an M2 and call it a day. They are cheap, proven and very good value for the money.
Hey:)
Not a lot really, although I'm happy that the market seems to be expanding for the time being.
What I am looking forward to is all the posts here and at p.net from people realising that they've ponied up a load of green to become beta-testers for the camera. It seems to happen everytime a company puts out a "breakthrough" product recently. When will these people learn? Just buy an M2 and be happy! :D :D
Salud!
ManGo
What interests me about the ZI is the long baseline for focusing speed/ease combined with the 0.74 viewfinder magnification and 28mm framelines. That Zeiss will be controlling the QA lends some confidence that the camera will avoid some of the problems of the Bessa line. The 25mm and 35mm Biogons are calling to me...
I am looking forward to the 35 and the 21 lenses. Looking forward to what people think about them after they use them for a while. I kinda don't really read the MTF because those are just technical graphs that doesn't really tell what people will think about the lenses.
Flowen
What interests me about the ZI is the long baseline for focusing speed/ease combined with the 0.74 viewfinder magnification and 28mm framelines. That Zeiss will be controlling the QA lends some confidence that the camera will avoid some of the problems of the Bessa line. The 25mm and 35mm Biogons are calling to me...
For me the 28mm framelines, long rangefinder base and Zeiss QC as well as how it behaves in the hand are important and valuable. We'll have to see whether the QC is there, and how it handles, so I'll be waiting along with others.
Another important factor for me is how much value a distributor adds. Over on APUG some are very adamant that the markup by Hasselblad in the US, for example, will add little if any value, and the price will be too high as a result. I hope that isn't true, but it's quite feasible. If I were a full-time pro depending on the equipment for my livelihood, I'd want a reputable local distributor to be responsible for caring for me. Given the size of the RF/film pro market, this may be too much to expect for a reasonable price.
But I do hope the ZI does well, because if it doesn't, then I would wonder about Zeiss' plans for digital that are implied in their announcements for this camera.
Trius
Huck Finn
04-21-2005, 11:18
Trius, having Hasselblad involved clearly adds to the price. Zeiss is using a different marketing model than Cosina uses for its Voigtlander line. The good news is that you can pay the USA price & have Hassy-USA available for service or you can order from Hong Kong for a 15% reduction in price. Nice choice to have.
I agree with you about the importance of 28 mm frame lines. I think that Zeiss has really achieved something with this. Have you noticed how far over to the right side of the camera (as viewed from the front) they have placed the viewfinder in order to achieve that base line? Not only have they included 28 mm frames with a 75 mm base line, but they have parallax corrected in the viewfinder from what appears to me to be a more extreme position than Leica or anyone else - & they have done it for a minimum focus distance of 19.5 inches! for people who are complaining about cost, that had to take some R&D.
Huck, the close focus capability is another feature that I forgot to add into my post regarding my priorities. You're right, the R&D had to be significant, and it must be figured into the price somewhere.
If I had the funds to by one just to look at it, I'd do so. I think it's gorgeous.
Trius.
Huck Finn
04-21-2005, 11:52
I have a hard time deciding whether I like it better with black lenses or chrome. :confused: But mostly I like it with film. :cool:
RubenBlaedel
04-21-2005, 11:55
the 21 or 25 might be on my list - the camera house look nicely designed but I have not yet held it and that is the main thing - how it feels to handle
I think the price of the Zeiss Ikon looks quite atractive, heres a comparison table I've done
Rollei 35RF & 40mm f/2.8.................$1200
Bessa R3-A & 40mm f/1.4................$1250
Bessa R2-A & 35mm f/1.2................$1800
Zeiss Ikon & 35mm f/2.0..................$2900
Leica M6 TTL & 35mm f/2.0 Asph......$5850
Leica MP & 35mm f/2.0 Leicavit Ki....$7650
Note that with exception to the Zeiss Ikon, all are "special bundle" or "ex demo" prices. The Zeiss Ikon really holds up quite well. Id rather Zeiss glass than Leitz any day, anyways, what a huge choice we have!
How long is the baseline of the Ikon?
Daniel.
75mm baseline, as I recall... longer than an M Leica anyway, but shorter than a Contax II. :)
I agree the Zeiss Ikon camera and lenses look to offer a lot of value for the dollar. As do the Voigtlander models, but at a different price point. I have had my Leica for 38 years, but admit to preferring to use the 23-year-old Minolta CLE... As soon as I heard about the ZI I figured I'd have one and very likely it'll be the new favorite M-mount rig.
wlewisiii
04-21-2005, 20:40
I love the idea, but at this point I'd only buy it if they offered a version that used the old Contax mount. I've got good bodies and better lenses for that. If I really need a modern body, I can track down an R2C. Otherwise, it's pretty but why should I buy a bunch of all new lenses? OTOH, if Zeiss were to offer those new lenses in the old mount, my wallet would be in a real world of hurt... :bang:
William
Me..! And I'm looking for a *black* one, and a *black* 2/35. And if it takes too long for them to come up with that stuff, I will probably go for a good Leica M6 in a "non-show" condition... that's serious
cheers, Frank
Huck Finn
04-22-2005, 03:43
Frank & William, I'll encourage you to pass on your thoughts to Hasselblad at Info@zeissikon.com. Maybe they'll respond if they know that there is consumer interest out there.
I calculate the price of a 28mm kit from Robert White to be about $2600USD (exc VAT), plus any shipping. As I read the US harmonised tariff schedule (and I'm not an expert), there is no import tariff. But any warranty work would require returning the item(s) to the UK for service. That's approximately 10% savings over US/Hassy pricing, right? So the pricing from Asia would be better, but I'm not sure it's enough for me to deal with warranty risk.
BUT... I would think Hassy would do well to become a sponsor here to ingratiate themselves to this market.
Trius
wlewisiii
04-22-2005, 10:10
Frank & William, I'll encourage you to pass on your thoughts to Hasselblad at Info@zeissikon.com. Maybe they'll respond if they know that there is consumer interest out there.
Just for the heck of it, I sent an email as you suggest. No idea if I'll even hear back from them, but at least I let someone there know my preference.
William
Huck Finn
04-22-2005, 13:08
I calculate the price of a 28mm kit from Robert White to be about $2600USD (exc VAT), plus any shipping. As I read the US harmonised tariff schedule (and I'm not an expert), there is no import tariff. But any warranty work would require returning the item(s) to the UK for service. That's approximately 10% savings over US/Hassy pricing, right? So the pricing from Asia would be better, but I'm not sure it's enough for me to deal with warranty risk.
BUT... I would think Hassy would do well to become a sponsor here to ingratiate themselves to this market.
Trius
Trius, I called Hasselblad & asked them if they would service a warranty if I bought the camera overseas. First, the rep said "No", then he siad they would if I could show proof of travel. He seemed a little tongue tied, which left me with the impression that he was making it up as he went along. I wonder if they would actually hold to the "no service without proof of travel rule." Who saves plane tickets so they can get warranty service on a camera. At least I was able to tell him that their prices were too high here.
Both Dr. Yao & Robert White have very good reputations. In several e-mail exchanges, Dr. Yao has responded to my inquiries immediately, leaving me with the impression that service would be good. Service by mail to Asia or Europe wouldn't be much different than those same folks buying from Stephen Gandy or Rich Pinto & then mailing back here for service. Many seem to do it. It's a global village. Just insure your packages.
Pricing from Asia would be better. Less than $2300 for the ZI/28mm package. I take it from your price that you are including the lens hood, which is about $80 from Asia. (Anyone buying the 35 or 50 mm Zeiss lenses can save a few dollars by substituting the LH-5 Voigtlander vented lens shade for the 40/1.4 Nokton, which fits perfectly on the Zeiss 35/2. Price is $45.)
Huck Finn
04-22-2005, 13:11
Just for the heck of it, I sent an email as you suggest. No idea if I'll even hear back from them, but at least I let someone there know my preference.
William
William, they have always replied to my e-mails within one business day. I expect that you'll hear from them on Monday.
Trius, I called Hasselblad & asked them if they would service a warranty if I bought the camera overseas. First, the rep said "No", then he siad they would if I could show proof of travel. He seemed a little tongue tied, which left me with the impression that he was making it up as he went along. I wonder if they would actually hold to the "no service without proof of travel rule." Who saves plane tickets so they can get warranty service on a camera. At least I was able to tell him that their prices were too high here.
Both Dr. Yao & Robert White have very good reputations. In several e-mail exchanges, Dr. Yao has responded to my inquiries immediately, leaving me with the impression that service would be good. Service by mail to Asia or Europe wouldn't be much different than those same folks buying from Stephen Gandy or Rich Pinto & then mailing back here for service. Many seem to do it. It's a global village. Just insure your packages.
Pricing from Asia would be better. Less than $2300 for the ZI/28mm package. I take it from your price that you are including the lens hood, which is about $80 from Asia. (Anyone buying the 35 mm lens can save a few dollars by substituting the LH-5 Voigtlander vented lens shade for the 40/1.4 Nokton, which fits perfectly on the Zeiss 35/2. Price is $45.)
Huck:
Thanks for the research with Hassy & the pricing from Dr. Yao. Yes, my pricing included the shade, but IIRC the shade did not have that high a list price. In any event, if I were buying it in the US as a kit, I would haggle hard to get the shade thrown in if I were paying top dollar!
The proof of travel requirement is interesting. Not that I'm planning on going to travelling to either the UK or Japan in the near future ... unless I win the lottery or inherit buckets of money!
William, I'll be interested in hearing how Hasselblad responds to you.
There was a post over on Apug (http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?p=130157#post130157) that was quite interesting. The viewfinder sounds luscious!
Trius
aoresteen
04-27-2005, 12:35
I am very interested in the 50mm Planar in black and I am waiting for them to show up at B&H.
The ZI body interests me but ONLY if it is available in black. The one shortcoming it has that the design lacks motor drive capability. My M4-P amd M3 both have the Leica Motor-M and my If and IIIf both have Leicavits.
I can't undersatnd why they left motor drive options off the ZI. Or rather why they put the rewind crank on the bottom.
I would also like a 50mm f/2.8 Tessar in a fixed mount based on the Contaflex Tessar lens design. That was/is one nice lens.
Huck Finn
04-27-2005, 12:43
Aoresteen, they put the re-wind crank on the bottom because they needed the room on the top fof the longer base line. At least, that's how I understand it. The longer rangefinder was the good news. The down side was the loss of motor drive or rapid winder capability.
aoresteen
04-29-2005, 12:22
Huck,
That's what I've been told as well. But look at the Contax II or III. That was a long RF base and the rewind still is on top.
I'll give up the motor drive for a black body!
Tony
Huck Finn
04-29-2005, 16:37
Tony, I thought along the same lines. Didn't cameras like the M3 & Nikon SP have long base lines with the re-wind cranks on top? I don't know . . .Maybe body size was different on any of these cameras, maybe AE requires extra space somewhere. I would think they had a reason.
Cheers . . .
wlewisiii
04-29-2005, 17:02
Looking at the pictures of the camera body, my guess is that the extra space needed for the viewfinder (including that big lump) is the culprit. It reminds me of the side mounted rewind on the Kiev 5 for similar reasons (and I'd have rather had a bottom rewind on it rather than that little contraption, but that's 40+ years past this bridge).
aoresteen - I agree. If they came out with a Tessar, any would do but the classic collapsable Contax 50/3.5 or 2.8 would be primo, then I'd be busting down the doors to buy the lens and body.
BTW, I haven't heard anything back from Zeiss or Hassy about my query.
William
Tony, I thought along the same lines. Didn't cameras like the M3 & Nikon SP have long base lines with the re-wind cranks on top? I don't know . . .Maybe body size was different on any of these cameras, maybe AE requires extra space somewhere. I would think they had a reason.I'm going to guess that designing this baseline length with both windows moved over to give room for the rewind crank might have resulted in just TOO traditional a Contax "finger in the window" situation over on the winding side.
The new ZI configuration at the VF side of the camera is very reminiscent of the Minolta CLE. Has any Contax RF camera offered a bottom wind, either motor or trigger?
And a warm welcome, Tony, to RFForum! Good to see you again. :)
Tony, I thought along the same lines. Didn't cameras like the M3 & Nikon SP have long base lines with the re-wind cranks on top? I don't know . . .Maybe body size was different on any of these cameras, maybe AE requires extra space somewhere. I would think they had a reason.
Cheers . . .
Yeah, but isn't the arrangement different on the ZI? The viewfinder window is all the way to the left (from the shooter's perspective), where as on a Contax things were shifted to the right.
Trius
Yeah, but isn't the arrangement different on the ZI? The viewfinder window is all the way to the left (from the shooter's perspective), where as on a Contax things were shifted to the right.It is different on the ZI... perhaps as a result of the designers remembering the Contax II, and placing the two RF windows as far left as possible to avoid that old finger problem that users need to learn to cope with on the old Contaxes and Kievs. :)
Doug: That's what I thought. Better design. How do I get this past SWMBO?
Trius
Gee, Trius, that's a tougher challenge than coming up with the next "killer" camera feature! You best know your own SWMBO's receptiveness to various arguments...
I'll have to think up persuasive reasoning for mine too... But that can wait as I enjoy relishing the surely-to-be-realized juicy details of the forthcoming camera... 28mm framelines AND .74 viewfinder... that long easy-focusing baseline... the Zeiss quality control... compatibility with the M system... and miracle of miracles, a new film camera in this digital age!
... and miracle of miracles, a new film camera in this digital age!
Indeed! And at a time when the MP might be the last of the Leica line ...
Gene
Doug: That's what I thought. Better design. How do I get this past SWMBO?
Trius
I dont know what that stands for, but Im guessing wife? My tip, have a another baby, and tell her you need a new camera to capture the moments.
If your a bit older, well, they do have aggressive invetereo programs now :)
Yep, wife. Stands for: She Who Must Be Obeyed.........
You could always get a more understanding wife? After all, what's more important?
:angel:
(that is FIRMLY tongue in cheek, btw....)
;)
aoresteen
04-30-2005, 06:39
If you read the article in the latest ShutterBug, CV rejected the design that Zeiss came up with in their prototypes. It seems that CV had a significant input on the final design of the ZI. In any case, the camera needs some real world testing to see how it does. By September CV ought to be working on the ZI II.
I will wait for the bugs to be worked out and BLACK bodies to be made. Then I will get one so at the earliest I'm thinking Jan/Feb next year.
Huck Finn
04-30-2005, 09:10
BTW, I haven't heard anything back from Zeiss or Hassy about my query.
William
William, I'm very surprised that they haven't replied. I'd try re-submitting it & see what happens.
Huck
Huck Finn
04-30-2005, 09:37
If you read the article in the latest ShutterBug, CV rejected the design that Zeiss came up with in their prototypes. It seems that CV had a significant input on the final design of the ZI. In any case, the camera needs some real world testing to see how it does. By September CV ought to be working on the ZI II.
I will wait for the bugs to be worked out and BLACK bodies to be made. Then I will get one so at the earliest I'm thinking Jan/Feb next year.
Shutterbug: "When they (Cosina) received the mockups from Carl Zeiss in December, 2003, they were almost appalled. There were several alternatives proposed, but what Carl Zeiss had recommended as the leading candidate had no hard edges, but instead was rounded everywhere: the edges were round, the the apron was round. . . Such a smooth design might beacceptable or even good as a domestic electric appliance . . . but it seemed totally out of contest as a camera design, or so it seemed to the Cosina team.
"In retrospect, it was the result of an attempt by the design boutique, Henssler & Schultheiss, to express a departure form the traditional Zeiss Ikon cameras, which were known by their peculiar dodecagonal body shape. Being edgy, rigid, sharp, and cold was synonymous with being "Zeissy," compared with Leica's round, soft, fuzzy, and warm atmosphere.
". . . Kobayashi and his staff were strongly opposed to the design recommended by Carl Zeiss. They believed that the sharp, edgy imagery of Zeiss Ikon cameras . . . was still alive in the consumer's mind, and it was a legacy on which to capitalize rather than be tossed away in the name of a "new departure." but at the same time it was believed that this camera should be a professional machine and its aesthetic manifestation should not be something round, fuzzy, and lukewarm.
"A dispute ensued, and it took eight months before a conclusion was reached in favor of Cosina. its present appearance . . . is edgy, square, cold, and rigid . . ."
Tony, I wouldn't read this to say that Cosina "rejected" the design that Zeiss came up with in the prototypes. I don't read any veto power here for Cosina. If anything, I'm left with the impression that Zeiss had the last word in decision making. It's important to note that Carl Zeiss is an optics company; they do not build cameras. They looked to others for design Ideas & listened to them. First, they contracted for a design from Henssler & Schultheiss. Then, they received input from Cosina. Combining this article with information from their website, I get the impression that they used focus groups both before & after the Cosina input to help with their final decision making. In the end, I think that Cosina just did a better job making their case to Carl Zeiss & that Cosina's recommendations held up better with the focus groups than did the ideas of H & S. But it was Carl Zeiss who had the last word.
I agree that Cosina had significant input into the final design of the ZI. In fact, what has emerged is that this has been much more of a partnership than we may have first been led to believe.
I think that you are wise to hold off until there is some real world field testing. Remember the Contax G & two year s later the G2? always a good idea to leth them work the bugs out on someone else's dime.
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