Other camera to try ?

[Wladimir]

Hello,

Friend of my is offering me cameras to buy, to try other as FED-2. I choose one from two, not expensive.

First is only KNEB, second is Kueb-Kiev with strange big black button and crank, also plastic self-timer.
Lens are same, say Jupiter 8.
Two cameras work good. But friend say self-timer of Kueb-Kiev sometime work, sometime not.

Which best ?

Thanks very much for help,
Wlad

[xayraa33]

go for the KNEB.

[Spyderman]

Difficult to say when we don't know what the look like, how they work etc. But if the KNEB is a Kiev 2 or 3, I'd go for that one.

[nzeeman]

if both work, take the KNEB if it is from 50s (read serial number if it starts with 5 and even better if start with 4 ;) ) many say it is golden age for kievs.

[Kino Glaz]

Dear Wlad, Nzeeman, Ondrej:

My Kiev is similar. It also has "kueb-kiev" logo. The same plastic self timer which does not work, but all other functions are OK. There are times when the shutter would open by itself, when changing shutter speeds. The winding dial is sometimes difficult to turn when changing between 1/5 to 1/125 sec settings.

I like to know more aboutmy Kiev, but I am not sure of the model and when it was made. Reading from the Kiev sites, I think my Kiev is a 4a. It has a serial number of 8405595 on its hotshoe. Nzeeman, are the 1950s Kiev really better? I think my Kiev is very good. In what ways do "golden age" Kiev better the ones from the ordinary periods?

[nzeeman]

Nzeeman, are the 1950s Kiev really better? I think my Kiev is very good. In what ways do "golden age" Kiev better the ones from the ordinary periods?

mine from 50s is smoother and more silent. but it is only one example from 50s so i cant generalize... other people say similar things, but vf is a bit brighter on kiev 4am...

[Wladimir]

Thanks all for answering !

What is "Kiev 4am" ?

[nzeeman]

What is "Kiev 4am" ?

it is last generation of kievs. it has different rewind crank, and different winding. also it has a fixed take up spool. but people say it has light leaks more often...

[Wladimir]

Thanks everybody for all details about Kueb-Kiev or KNEB.

This seem very very complicated camera to me. Also it is big and heavy and when I take picture it make a strange WHOOIZZZ noise.

KNEB seem be covered by true leather, Kueb-Kiev is covered by ugly black plastic, not nice.

Maybe I will stay with FED-2, I don't know still.

Do you know a good Internet page about Kiev camera ?

Thank you much !

Wlad

[.Lucifuge.]

Try this link http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/

Greets

[brachal]

The Kueb-Kiev sounds like a Kiev-4am. While these have some nice design features (the change to the rewind clutch is one), they have a very poor reputation for quality. I had one, and the shutter ribbons broke after less than one roll. I would go with the KNEB.

[ErnestoJL]

Hi Wladimir!
Kievs (or KNEB in cyrillic) were made in different flavours to say:

Kievs 2 and 3 were made from 1949 to about 1956 and carry serial numbers like 4xNNNNN ans 5xNNNNN where 4x/5x are the two digits that tell manufacturing year.
Those cameras are the closest clones of the german made Contax II and Contax III, so close that many of the first cameras made were made at Kievskii Arsenal Zavod with original german made parts, but they are difficult to find as they become highly collectible items, and of course pricey. Name is written only in cyrillic, and almost no plastic parts in them.

The next evolution step was the Kiev 4 series which instead of changing number model (2 or 3) used same numbering (now is 4) but differentiated models with a letter (Kiev 4 or Kiev 4a) where the "a" means a meterless camera. All those cameras have name writen both in cyrillic as well as roman characters. This practice was followed till the production end.

Next Kiev step was the Kiev 4M and 4aM.
Allways "a" means a meterless camera, and the M indicates some additional changes like redesigned rewind knob (now with a foldable lever) redesigned speed dial, plastic covered selftimer lever instead of chromed brass, fixed take up spool.
Finishing shows as being of lower quality than their older counterparts. Only good thing of cameras made after 1978 is that they were originally fitted with the superb Helios 103(53mmm f 1.8), instead of the excellent (one of my favourites) Jupiter 8M (a Zeiss Sonnar f2 clone excellently made in the USSR).

IMO, the best Kiev cameras you can get are those made from 1949 to 1968, where quality control was perhaps still reasonable. All of them should have the Jupiter 8 or 8 M lens. Old types have no click f stops, later models have them.
They are truly excellent cameras even today after 40 or more years.
If I were offered to buy them I´ll go for the KNEB first, and later for the other ones as spare cameras.

Good luck, and enjoy them!

Cheers

Ernesto

[Wladimir]

I have looked at site "Kiev Survival". Wow, it's very nice site but seem very complicated for me too.

Is there other site for Kiev, more simple for beginner like me ?

Maybe somebody here use much Kiev daily ?

KNEB camera of friend has 567253 on flash shoe, good one ?
I think I will go for this, not the Kueb-Kiev.

Thanks !
Wlad

[brachal]

I have looked at site "Kiev Survival". Wow, it's very nice site but seem very complicated for me too.

Is there other site for Kiev, more simple for beginner like me ?

Maybe somebody here use much Kiev daily ?

KNEB camera of friend has 567253 on flash shoe, good one ?
I think I will go for this, not the Kueb-Kiev.

Thanks !
Wlad

There isn't much to it, really. Load the film, wind, and shoot. The Kiev is a complex design, so don't take the top off unless you're prepared.

I use a Kiev sometimes. If you have a specific question, I'll try to answer it. Ruben is the site's Kiev Master. He has tremendous knowledge and experience with the Kiev.

From the serial#, your friend's KNEB is a 1956 Kiev 2a. Very very close to the original Contax in all ways, and from a period with superb quality. I have a 55 2a, and its build rivals that of my Leica IIIf. You could consider 1955 - 1965 to be the "golden age" of FSU cameras.

[timmyd18]

Wladimir:

Here is a link to an instruction manual for a Kiev 4 Am (the "Kueb-Kiev")

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/russian/kiev-4M/kiev-4-splash.htm

There are some strange things about the camera that you've pointed out, like where the film rewind is and other quirks, too. I just got my 4 am, but I find it interesting to use and it seems to take very good pictures. So I'd say use it AND your Fed-2! (maybe put a different focal length lens on one and then drag both around)

That being said, my advice is the same as everyone else's, the older Kiev is probably higher quality and I'm sure is worth more. You can get a 4am on ebay for very very low cost if you are interested later.

tim

[Wladimir]

Thank you all again for tips interesting. This is very great forum ! Wow.

Now before I buy KNEB from friend I have another question.

What I like do most is street photography. Can I make street photographys fast and also discrete with KNEB like with FED-2 ?

Thanks !
Wlad

[brachal]

Thank you all again for tips interesting. This is very great forum ! Wow.

Now before I buy KNEB from friend I have another question.

What I like do most is street photography. Can I make street photographys fast and also discrete with KNEB like with FED-2 ?

Thanks !
Wlad

It's bigger than the FED-2, but other than that I don't think there'd be much difference. The KNEB has a much greater range of shutter speeds, which may be helpful. I don't think of either of these cameras being especially fast to use. If speed is an issue, my best advice would be to pick a reasonable shutter speed and then alter the exposure by adjusting aperture as needed. Works much better for me than messing with these cameras' shutter controls ... at least if you're in a hurry.

[ruben]

Hi Wlad,

At this stage I will make a few and brief remarks.

a) By no means Ruben is to be held as a Kiev Master, but as a Kiev enthusiast user. This is a measured truth to start with, and follow accordingly my next points.

b) I actually do street photography with Kievs only, almost only.

c) There are two highly important, basic differences in my opinion between Kievs and Feds. If you choose Kiev you are implying a certain technical tendency inside you to make yourself, one day not now, able to maintain your camera at its highest potential. If you feel yourself as unwilling forever to fiddle with the camera mechanics, then better say it good bye.

The other highly important issue is that you are choosing between two different lens mounts. The classic Zeiss/Kiev mount, or the Leica old screw mount. It seems to me that the variety of lenses available in the LTM mount (leica thread mount) is quite broader and by several times than Zeiss/Kiev.

And precisely for this reason, knowing my weakness for lens buying, one day I made my mind to avoid the LTM.

3) You speak about a friend offering you both cameras and it seems that you can go to his home. Then why not going, smelling, touching, looking, etc, and then follow your instincts ?

Cheers,
Ruben

[Wladimir]

Thanks ! It's top to have site Kiev Survival master Ruben here ! What great forum ! I'm very happy to have find RFF.

Okay I think I go buy old KNEB from friend, not plastic Kueb-Kiev. But some one or too things are make me fear yet.

Kiev Master write, that Kiev camera have to be myself repaired all time to stay good mechanics, or I have to say good bye to other members ? True ?

Also, I have to smell Kiev before to use ? Why ?

Thanks !
Wlad

[RFOBD]

Also, I have to smell Kiev before to use ? Why ?

I think Ruben just meant that you should go touch and feel the cameras before you buy one. Experience them both and then choose.

[manfromh]

I actualy like the smell of the two Kievs I have. Too bad they aint working.

[ruben]

Thanks ! It's top to have site Kiev Survival master Ruben here ! What great forum ! I'm very happy to have find RFF.

Okay I think I go buy old KNEB from friend, not plastic Kueb-Kiev. But some one or too things are make me fear yet.

Kiev Master write, that Kiev camera have to be myself repaired all time to stay good mechanics, or I have to say good bye to other members ? True ?

Also, I have to smell Kiev before to use ? Why ?

Thanks !
Wlad


Hi Wlad,

I have to repeat that I am not any "kiev master" at all, but a proud Kiev Enthusiast. My technical knowledge of the Kievs is in my opinion around the minimum to have a Kiev running in highly good health, provided no complex fixings are required.

Nevertheless, had I been what I am not, a "Kiev Master", I still would follow HCB personal example when he defined himself as an "amateur", a lover of photography, instead of a big shot.

I think that people speaking from the big shot stage, in any aspect of life, should digg in their own past for the reason. There cannot be a biggest ignorant of the basics of life than the one that considers himself a big shot.

Since ancient times some of us seem to question our very democratic mortality by enhancing our egos beyond our life time. What a waist of time ! In some cases very few of us have succeded - So what ? Have they enjoyed it ? It doesn't look like.

Back to our issues, what is a complex fixing ? At this moment I can only think about an issue called shutter synchronization. It means to bring all the small parts of the shutter back to harmony action. This I have not learnt how to perform, as I regard it an issue I hope to avoid. Other highly important issues that I have never performed have been related to the disassembly and cleaning of lens optics, or another "profession" called collimation, whose real master is our RFF member Brian Sweeny

What are non-complex fixings? Light streaks, range finder adjustment, shutter distension and reasonable shutter calibration, ribbons exchange, camera internal cleaning and lubrication. And perhaps some other issues I may be forgetting now.

In a single word, I am not a Kiev fixer but an amateur photographer able to run his Kievs at much higher level than the average. That's all, and it is not much. But it is something.

It is this practical knowledge, which I developed here at RFF, with the backing of the Kiev Survival Site, and togethere with many good and knowlegeable RFF members like Noel, Spyderman, Phisiognomy, rxmd (Phillip), that has filled me with a great enthusiasm for these disdained cameras, after been able to measure in practice, their high potential.

I would recommend a Kiev to any person with a technical inclination. It doesn't mean you must start disassembling your Kiev the day you get it. But it means that if you want to extract all the honey hidden inside these cinderellas, you will have to perform one day your own overhaul of the camera. To be able to do it, you will have to learn bit by bit, from many different sources and the KSS first of all.

Here we come back to the point where I said that for a Kiev you need a minimal technical inclination. A technical inclination is not knowledge, it is the desire or curiousity for technical knowledge.

Now, why not sending your Kiev to a professional fixer ? I have nothing against it, if we take for granted that a professional fixer will do a kind of 'ambulance first help' work. And we should not disregard this first help, if you want to use your Kiev day by day.

Contax cameras today still enjoy of high quality profesional fixers with Henry Scherer at the top of them. Unfortunately Kiev cameras don't enjoy of high level fixers of a talent alike Henry Scherer.

Both Contax and Kiev cameras demmand a lot of the fixer time due to having many many screws and components. Therefore, in my opinion, the Kiev fixer working for a low price against the clock, should be avoided as much as possible. This is not the situation with the Contax fixer.

There are two basic instances at which I would not avoid a Kiev fixer. First when I purchase my camera. Then I would send it straight away for an overall CLA. The second instance it would be upon meeting a very serious issue to fix.

Nevertheless after sending the Kiev for its first CLA immediately after purchase, I would not consider it a for-granted-reliable CLA-ed Kiev. I would consider it in the best of cases, a humbly working Kiev.

A great CLA for a Kiev is not so much an issue of expertize, although a minimum is necessary, but mainly an issue of working hours time input. Here you will always have the upper hand over the professional fixer.

You will need some 50 working hours. But 50 high quality working hours. Meaning working hours during which you enjoy of your best patience and don't work against the clock.


As for the issue of the smelling, touching, seeing, and letting your instincts decide, my previous friends have answered you pretty well.

Kievs are for some of us very attractive cameras arising many kind of feelings, appealing us for different reasons. They are very temperamental cameras in their external look as well. If they attract you and you want to marry with them, they will be very time-demmanding cameras, not tolerant of competition, not enabling you to use them very much alongside other cameras.

If you are not prepared for this situation, after buying Kievs, most of the chances are that you will not use them most of the times. And for all these reasons I recommended you to visit your friend and check if the Kievs produce a click within your heart. You see, life is not just mathematics, but emotions too.

Cheers,
Ruben

[Wladimir]

Mr Ruben thank you lots for very very long input I have took many time to read before I go to see girlfriend in park on afternoon today. Problem, now I don't know what to do again. 567253 KNEB seem very attractive. And friend don't sell it for to expensive (for amount near fifthy dollars americans around).

But now I have read all posts I still fear this is very too complicated camera for me. I don't take photographys for long you know and I like very simple mechanical calm film camera, I like small FED-2 for that causes.

You write I have to spend fifthy hours of difficult work on KNEB after I have smelled it. Also you say I have to be married to have KNEB because they demand more time? I dont understand. Girlfriend is my honey, ok, but want not be married now already. And in other very good thread of forum you also tell about sex-pipe show to be visited with eye put in Kiev camera. This is not too easy job for absolute beginner like me! And I don't want trouble with police my country!

Also strange thing is that KNEB of friend is marked for made in USSR but CCCP also. I don't want using camera made by poor goulag prisoners! Friend have made very very good macrophoto for me with big professional TV camera shot to show to you serious expertises when camera in fact is make. I hope attaching photo work, I made never links attachings before here on forum.

Thanks!
Wlad

[brachal]

Ruben,
Please forgive me if you've taken offense at my use of the term Kiev Master. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and enthusiasm regarding Kiev's and thought it was an appropriate term.

Wladimir,
Don't be afraid of the camera. It's not much more complicated than your Fed to use. If you have to repair or tune it at some point, then you can worry about the difficult work. I have had a good Kiev that was serviced before I bought it, and I've never had any difficulties. As mentioned above, I have great respect for what Ruben does with his cameras, but I do not have the time or skill to become a camera repair man. So, when I have a problem with one, I send it to somebody qualified to fix it. The camera may not get the amount of detailed attention that Ruben gives to his, but it should return in good working order.

The markings on the shoe are common on Kievs of that period. The inscription is in Cyrillic and Roman characters as many of these early Kievs were intended for export. No Kiev was made in a gulag. All were produced at the Kiev arsenal in the Ukraine.

[timmyd18]

Wladimir-

definitely don't be afraid of a kiev. one week after obtaining my first i am enjoying it completely. as ruben and others have said, the very accurate focusing lets you do wonderful things with depth of field (focusing on your target and letting everything else either be blurry or clear depending on what you want.)

except for mounting lenses, it is not harder to use than a Fed-2.

also, one advantage of a kiev or a contax seems to be that the lenses for them are easier to get more cheaply. i really wanted a jupiter 12 for my Feds, but i found that for the same price of the j12 in that mount, i could get a kiev mount j12, a kiev 4aM, a case, and a helios 103 lens. that was my justification for getting one more camera!

[mhv]

What is "Kiev 4am" ?

It's an Ukranian-inspired side dish usually served with slaczek after a long drinking evening (hence the 4 AM name).

It is best eaten with mineral water.

Eih bennek, eih blavek!

[Wladimir]

On fläsz Klowaswa vüh Kiev 4 AM, döh dzapeih blaveh !

I think I not buy KNEB, but keep FED-2 my now, take very very good pictured. I link flower, I think it work attaching.

Güdd oh Zrädjzmo !
Wlad

[tunznath]

Dan dzetronn eszt ervüh

[rxmd]

On fläsz Klowaswa vüh Kiev 4 AM
They're not waterproof though. Szplug!

Philipp

[Wladimir]

Nah dzem hoepxbeh, 30ha Döszt, ihn dzekhoujchz szoe ebb thoun, hkom KNEB Carlitz zsãlu fzotos nhiemtz FED-2 endzoekhoszd !

Zhoe ghounh dzoeteuih Hzforrhom !
Wlad

[micromontenegro]

Basta! Dan tronn eszt pho mâ!

[Wladimir]

Dã ön estcãr alpùkzommetz Paffeh Ruben ?

Crom szù öpp Dàszbiek öpp cãrrö ? Güdd KNEB Khäzhy ?
Dobb ihff, Halmaszout ? Medt Rhonsönol ?
Wlad

[micromontenegro]

Khäzhy nicht kalinskÿ Rhonsönolich, Khoshmoline eszt Güdd, Trynytretoúlene Bätczer.

Edit: Bätczer jett: On fläsz Klowaswa

[Wladimir]

Dzäpet FED-2 szmit Szsnõrr Jupiter-8, zslasktij, eih güdd.

Ow !
Wlad