looks like a new leica cl is coming

[dukovac]

leica ceo kaufmann gave an interview (here (http://www.handelsblatt.com/News/Unternehmen/Industrie/_pv/_p/200038/_t/ft/_b/1401865/default.aspx/leica-ceo-restructuring-80-percent-done.html) translated in english) and talked about future plans, like a new cl...

i thought maybe somebody would be interested.

here an excerpt:

Does this mean that there will be a digital M for starters, similar to the Leica CL?
The CL was a very smart decision in the seventies, for sure. From this regard this is a logical question.


I would be interested in the answer.
No comment. We´re closely looking at all those subjects. We will roll out only products which are mature. Please don´t forget that we´re a medium sized company. Our R&D capabilities are limited.

[Al Patterson]

Much as I like my CL, I doubt a new film version is in the works. I'm of the opinion that the M7 and MP are the end of the film Leicas.

A digital CL or CLE would be neat if they could find the money to put it on the market.

[infrequent]

Please don´t forget that we´re a medium sized company. Our R&D capabilities are limited.

apparently economies of scale and R&D alliances don't work for german boutique companies.

[allen_a_george]

If only the Ricoh GX series had a larger sensor and were less prone to dust problems . . .

[anselwannab]

If I were them, when they BRing out the M9, I would refreshen up the M8 and rebadge it the call it the CL.

I was thinking that the cheaper lenses they were bringing out were harkening a new cheaper camera body. Oh, well.

[Rob-F]

A digital CL would need to not compete with the M8. A camera along R-D1 lines with about 6 to 7.5MP and with the Moire and IR filters in place would be a good start. It would probably be used with short lenses, like the R-D1, so the rangefinder base could be short, helping to make the camera a bit more compact. Probably we don't need the analog gas-guage readout, and that would save a few dollars. Since there is no mirror, it seems that live view should be possible--even though the R-D1 has not got it. At the right price, it could be a big hit. It would probably need to be made in Japan to achieve the right price point. That's OK with me. I'd like it to be under $2000.00 (Like $1999.00 I guess.)

[tmfabian]

I'm not sure introducing anything less than 10mp would be a good marketing move in today's market.

I gotta agree with you there.
While there certainly isn't the greatest need for the bajillion megapixels most companies are marketing, anything less than 10mp in todays market would be suicide....
I've heard it from creative directors and graphic artists for years "...why do we pay that photographer using a mere 12mp camera when i own the same one (5d)..."
That's actually one aspect of the m8 costing a TON that has payed off for me...creative directors look at the price tag of the camera and assume instantly i'm valuable to them since they wouldn't dare pony up that kind of cash. They don't care that it's only 10.3mp at that point, they don't know enough about cameras most times to even notice.

[dcsang]

Unless you're blowing the image up to a LARGE size (i.e. various advertisements / posters) or you're cropping - there's no need for an excessive amount of pixels - especially considering the size of the sensors that are being considered. 10MP is about the boundary imho - no one else has to agree with me on that and I doubt many would because it seems a lot of folks believe the "bigger is better" philosophy.

6MP cameras (while considered passe nowadays) can print up to 11x14 easily and, likely 16x20. Definitely this is the case with 8MP cams.

Education of the general public is key in ensuring that people, as ChuckD and Public Enemy would say, "don't believe the hype". :D

Dave

[allen_a_george]

Well, as long as we're dreaming, I doubt any new camera will come out with 6MP APS-C sensor. This is simply because, as far as I'm aware, neither Sony, Canon nor Samsung manufacture 6MP APS-C sensors in any significant quantity (if at all). New cameras will come out with either a 10MP (used across the Nikon, Sony and Pentax lines), 12MP (again across all 3 lines) or 14MP (Samsung, Pentax) sensor.

[Rob-F]

You don't see R-D1 enthusiasts complaining about it being only 6MP. You do see them praising the R-D1 for excellent high ISO performance. There is a reason for that. When there are fewer pixel sensors, they can be larger, which leads to better low-noise performance. Perhaps, on general principles, a Leica ought to have a few more pixels than an Epson, so maybe the 7.5MP range would be a good middle figure. That way the noise performance can still be excellent, and the camera's capabilities can be in balance, rather than maximizing one thing at the expense of another.

I think photographers who buy a Leica, even those of us who are advanced amateurs, will understand this.

I want more than the 3 framelins of the R-D1. I want at least 24, 28, 35, and 50. So the finder magnification will need to be no higher than .7 or so. Better yet, drop it to .6 and include the 21mm frames.

And let's drop the price to around $1650.00, OK?

Have engineering get right on that, please.

[dcsang]

Allen made a good point up there.
How many sensor makers are still making 6MP (or 7MP) sensors anyway?

In the race after the almighty pixel they've dropped the creation of those sensors for sensors that are more dense - perhaps instead hoping that their noise reduction algorithms in the "in camera" software will be able to take care of the noise issue. Nikon seems to have that figured out (look at the D3) and same with Canon (5D) but these cameras are full frame - therefore sensor size is larger.

Will there be a manufacturer that can produce a current sensor that is not noisy at anything over ISO640?

Curious,
Dave

[photovdz]

may be they should merge with cosina to improve their R&D abilities ;-)

the only last real technological advance was to invest in hygrometer technology ;-) (see noctilux...)

[kevin m]

I’d love to see them introduce a new film CL.

And I'd love it if supermodels delivered my mail.

Come to think of it, that's way more likely than Leica introducing a new film body.

[Olsen]

To my opinion, a cheap D-CL would be the right way to go in today's market. After all, the old CL was launched the last time the dollar was as low as it is now. 10 mill. pixels, 1,5 crop sensor 'right off the shelf' and as simple and compact to keep cost down and sold for 3,500 $. - Could it be produced in the US?

[Al Patterson]

To my opinion, a cheap D-CL would be the right way to go in today's market. After all, the old CL was launched the last time the dollar was as low as it is now. 10 mill. pixels, 1,5 crop sensor 'right off the shelf' and as simple and compact to keep cost down and sold for 3,500 $. - Could it be produced in the US?

1.5 Crop would make my 40mm an effective 60mm. I'll stick with film before I drop $3.5k on one of these. Too rich for this American.

If it were made here it would likely cost more than the M8, as I'm sure someone would need to build a factory first prior to building the first unit...

[40oz]

I'm sorry, I didn't read anything that hinted at a digital CL-like system. I *did* read comments implying that a lower cost M body would be a logical product to go with the lower cost lenses. I'm not sure why this body has to be digital. It would seem a more compact and cheaper film body would fit the bill nicely, considering the relative success of Cosina and Zeiss. Apologies to digital adherents, but film isn't going away and it would be foolish for Leica to ignore that revenue stream.

Right now the market for digital rangefinders is limited to a single currently produced body. Film RF's, on the other hand, feature multiple choices at multiple price points. I'm not suggesting Leica is going to compete directly with Zeiss or Cosina, but there is certainly room for a cheaper body between $1000-5000. I can't see how Leica could repackage the M8 electronics and be able to cut the price at all. I certainly could see how they could update the CL for less than a new M7, however. If they just forgo automation features, surely some cost savings would be realized over the M7. A metered Leica body with a more compact design would certainly be an attractive alternative to the ZM or Cosina options.

[35mmdelux]

a mere 6mp when the Hasselblad blink delivers 50mp? What cameldung are they smokin?

[Olsen]

1.5 Crop would make my 40mm an effective 60mm. I'll stick with film before I drop $3.5k on one of these. Too rich for this American.

If it were made here it would likely cost more than the M8, as I'm sure someone would need to build a factory first prior to building the first unit...

Al,

USA, with a median yearly income of less than € 30.000, - and an experienced work force, is indeed a competetive proposition compared to Germany. To where could it be 'outsourced' from Solms? Are any of the Kodak plants still around?

[Steve Bellayr]

Could this be a possible replacement fo the Digilux 3? A 4/3 system with the elmarit variable focus lens? The body more in line with the Cl rather than the current digilux?

[Gabriel M.A.]

leica ceo kaufmann gave an interview (here (http://www.handelsblatt.com/News/Unternehmen/Industrie/_pv/_p/200038/_t/ft/_b/1401865/default.aspx/leica-ceo-restructuring-80-percent-done.html) translated in english) and talked about future plans, like a new cl...

i thought maybe somebody would be interested.

here an excerpt:

Does this mean that there will be a digital M for starters, similar to the Leica CL?
The CL was a very smart decision in the seventies, for sure. From this regard this is a logical question.


I would be interested in the answer.
No comment. We´re closely looking at all those subjects. We will roll out only products which are mature. Please don´t forget that we´re a medium sized company. Our R&D capabilities are limited.


Wait a minute: a non-confirmation is a confirmation?

I'd like to announce my candidacy for President is not ready for roll-out, and asking me a question about it is a logical question. I hereby will make no comments about it whatsoever. :rolleyes:

[xayraa33]

digital CL ?

Mm-Mm good.

[sol33]

Wait a minute: a non-confirmation is a confirmation?


Internet rumors are a lot like tasseography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasseography). I think it's fun.

Before the lines quoted in the first post Kaufmann said the following: "From my point of view the idea to offer inexpensive lenses for new M-users is a good one. But the price of the body has to go in line with this concept. If you look at the current price of the M8 there is a certain discrepancy." And in another recent interview with PopPhoto he confirmed "something significant for the M system at Photokina, not just lenses."

So he is definitively hinting at a lower priced digital M. But of course you are right: he doesn't confirm anything. But if he did, we would have much less fun in this forum, would we? ;)


I'd like to announce my candidacy for President is not ready for roll-out, and asking me a question about it is a logical question. I hereby will make no comments about it whatsoever. :rolleyes:

Go for it! I'm sure you'll be a better president than McCain or Obama!

[Bobfrance]

I assume Panasonic are still involved with Leica.
Could this be the basis of the new CL?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501microfourthirds.asp

A Leica version with a viewfinder (and even a rangefinder) would be very neat.

This is the kind of thing I have been expecting from Nikon if it brings out a RF.

All IMHO of course. ;)

[Al Patterson]

I wonder if the new Micro 4/3 system could be the source of a new CL type digital Leica with smaller lenses. Leave the old traditional M mount for the M8. Sound reasonable or am I way off base here?

[ClaremontPhoto]

I could envisage a fixed lens digital CL camera in the same vein as the short lived CM film camera.

Optical viewfinder, and slightly retro styling please.

Most likely made in Japan.

[~martyn~]

I wonder if the new Micro 4/3 system could be the source of a new CL type digital Leica with smaller lenses. Leave the old traditional M mount for the M8. Sound reasonable or am I way off base here?


One of the CL's plus points is its ability to make use of most M lenses, allowing one to use a lighter body without buying a different set of lenses. To "leave the old traditional M mount" would be to take away this distinct advantage.

[caffeineshutter]

Sure. End of all future film Leicas. Save for the ones commemorating the first anniversary of their last M7 or MP, another one commemorating the US presidential inauguration, and of course one to commemorate HC-B's WWII escape. That model will be hidden somewhere in the Black Forest, and customers will be released into the woods to find them after their factory tour. :D

But seriously: I hope to not hear of Leica discontinuing film cameras. Their competitors are doing a good job, but I believe there will a demand for hardware in that category into the future.


Much as I like my CL, I doubt a new film version is in the works. I'm of the opinion that the M7 and MP are the end of the film Leicas.

[GoodPhotos]

While we are dreaming...How about a Micro4:3 format sensor in a CL type body with the same match needle metered manual exposure only...(ok...maybe Aperture Priority too if you must) an M mount (to use your classic M or LTM Leica/CV 24s, 35s and 50s) and a new 12mm f/2 M mount lens? Dial-able frames in 24, 48, 70 and 100 (35mm equiv.)

Given a price point of $1k or less, this would tempt the same market that the DP1, the Canon G10 and the Leicasonic DMC-LX3/Digilux 4 attracts now.

[BillBingham2]

The only thing you can get from Leica these days at $1K USD is a pair of sox!

B2 (;->

[Moto Mark]

If Leica could add some more features to the D-Lux 4 on the likes of the Canon G9/G10 I think that would be their answer to the digital CL. I've used a G9 as a backup camera for over a year now and the first time I held it it reminded me of my now long gone CL.

[mike_j]

I don't expect a new CL based on the micro 4/3 but the registration distance suggests than an adaptor for LTM and M lenses will be practical.

Possbly the Olympus would team up nicely with a Color Skopar 15 or 21mm with aux. viewfinder?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092208olympus_micro_four_thirds.asp