View Full Version : M8 should drop in price, in line with the new lenses.
photomoof
03-14-2008, 19:12
This just popped up in my mailbox
http://www.handelsblatt.com/News/default.aspx?_p=200038&_t=ft&_b=1401865
Mention that the M8 should drop in price, in line with the new lenses.
Anyone else see it, trust/know the source?
DrK:
"From my point of view the idea to offer inexpensive lenses for new M-users is a good one. But the price of the body has to go in line with this concept. If you look at the current price of the M8 there is a certain discrepancy."
:cool:
The interview seems like a legit interview... It would be nice for a cheaper M8, however, I don't know if that could happen. It seems that the whole M8 upgrade program is there to "protect" the investment of M8 owners. A price drop would completely contradict that claim. Although that was a claim put under the Lee era.
Can't happen....fall of the dollar's value, and all that.
Just wanted to be the first to say that on this thread.
photomoof
03-14-2008, 19:44
Can't happen....fall of the dollar's value, and all that.
Just wanted to be the first to say that on this thread.
I don't think he is referring to the dollar on the money market, but the price of the M8 in Euros. Cheaper is cheaper, even if it only means the price in USD does not rise.
Cindy Flood
03-16-2008, 16:25
I read the entire interview with Dr. Kaufmann. He said: "From my point of view the idea to offer inexpensive lenses for new M-users is a good one. But the price of the body has to go in line with this concept. If you look at the current price of the M8 there is a certain discrepancy."
It could be that he is talking about a different camera than the M8. I did not read it as him saying that the M8 should drop in price. I felt that he might be talking about a CL type body. Wouldn't that be great!:eek: Who knows. You have to be careful how you interpret these comments, so as not to spread rumors.
photomoof
03-16-2008, 17:36
Well sure Cindy you can read it in a number of ways. But the M8 is only priced so very high because they have sold so few, Stephen G says only 12,000. If Leica can afford to be daring then they can lower the price, sell three times as many, and thus make more money. Any body CL type or otherwise cannot be sold for too much more, they have reached a ceiling where sales are dropping off, which of course is partly due to end of cycle on the M8.
When they release a new model, I wonder if it will cost even more?
Something is going to happen, but what only the good Dr. knows. One thing he did make clear, he intends to stick with it for the foreseeable future, and profit is not the driving force.
won't happen. want an M8, you need to open your wallet.
As Mark Norton points out on LUF, it is by far the cheapest camera made outside the Far East,,,,,,
ZebGoesZeiss
03-17-2008, 00:14
Of course it will fall in price, I just got one :D
But, seriuosly: They are available new at $4700, I got mine from PhotoVillage for that price just a week ago (after having sold my first M8, and instantly regretted it...).
Please people, when has a Leica ever gone down in price when it was new? Even the used stuff is going up in price to be more then it was new before.
Sounded to me more like he was referring to an upcoming digital CL.
Roland.
bluepenguin
03-17-2008, 08:12
M8 price is kind a scary... if any company comes with good priced DRF,,, M8 price will fall a part.
It would be nice to leverage that initial R&D investment in M8 to make other products for different markets. Perhaps the question is what features/quality to take away from the M8 to reduce production cost while maintaining new buyers' interest.
Has there been any threads that discuss what people would accept in the digital CL ? Shorter base length, manual winding (thus smaller buffer), 1/2000s max shutter speed, lighter and smaller chassis?
I read the entire interview with Dr. Kaufmann. He said: "From my point of view the idea to offer inexpensive lenses for new M-users is a good one. But the price of the body has to go in line with this concept. If you look at the current price of the M8 there is a certain discrepancy."
It could be that he is talking about a different camera than the M8. I did not read it as him saying that the M8 should drop in price. I felt that he might be talking about a CL type body. Wouldn't that be great!:eek: Who knows. You have to be careful how you interpret these comments, so as not to spread rumors.
gtmerideth@mac.
03-17-2008, 08:51
I realize that this is the M8 forum but the company is too small to be all things. Their focus now is the R series which has been absent for much too long. The development of an entirely new R has to consume most all of the resources and the lack of income for both bodies and glass must hurt. The M series is going to be invloved with upgrades for years to come.
With regard to Steven Lee, whomever positioned the partnership for the DMR committed a much greater gaff.
g.
this dejavu again
I consider M8 fairly cheap when it can compete with the best digital camera from Canon still. The canon is obviously more expensive and larger so there is a choice to a heavy DSLR. In the end you may end up with a lot higher expenses if you purchase leica equipment (canon lenses are cheaper).
But M8 price looks unbelievably cheap when you compare it with analog film cameras as M7 or MP when electronics must cost more than the difference of those compared prices.
I hope that M8 could drop price by about 1000 euros then they can sell more cameras without much loss. It can work for leica if it does work for Sony with Bluray player and PS3 though it is different because Sony sell those named products hundreds time more than leica does.
sevres_babylone
03-17-2008, 09:59
From my reading of the interview, I agree with Cindy's comment. I believe he is talking about a newer camera, or cameras, at a lower price point. I think they will try to maintain the current price for the M8 and sell it as their ever-upgradeable model.
photomoof
03-17-2008, 10:26
From my reading of the interview, I agree with Cindy's comment. I believe he is talking about a newer camera, or cameras, at a lower price point. I think they will try to maintain the current price for the M8 and sell it as their ever-upgradeable model.
I would agree, the M8 is what it is. Leica is selling a D300 level camera, and needs to build something cheaper.
They need a camera from Panasonic, but the rub remains, if Panasonic builds an M-mount camera, with a long base rangefinder, for $2500, why would anyone buy another German Leica? No matter what they do, anything Panasonic builds is going to outperform the current handmade M8, which is in reality just a prototype that went into production.
I think the M8 is a lovely design, I have never met anyone who owns one who hates it, in fact just the opposite, most users love the camera. They are just a tough sale. There is no reason they should cost more than an MP, which in reality is much more complicated to manufacture.
M8s cost what they do, because currently, other than the licensing with Panasonic, the M8 is the only revenue stream.
:)
I think it is better lower price of m8 than put r&d money for a new different model when you can cut down price of m8 instead and have more sales. My experience tells me that smaller body than typical M is less good for maintaining stability when you take a shoot.
It exist small cameras like c-lux with brand name LEICA for ones who want small camera with name leica :D Who really want a small camera with interchangeable lens. There is no large market anyway.
Unless there's a huge profit margin on the M8 I don't see how (at least N. American) dealers can decide to lower their M8 prices as long as Leica keeps raising it to pass through currency fluctuations. I spoke with a friend who runs a large big-city M-B dealership and he said M-B Germany knows if they tried that all it'd do is kill their US market.
Leica is under pressure to increase turnover in the immediate term. I do not see how they will achieve this with any body other than the M8. It will be more cost effective for Leica to increase turnover by discounting the M8 since development costs are already sunk and the body is in production. A reduced price CL style body will not achieve the desired result since it's development needs to be funded. This will also take time and once released, any reduced price M-mount digital body will have an adverse impact on M8 sales.
The current economic climate will place further pressure on Leica to act sooner rather than later. The M8 is clearly a luxury item and any downturn at the top end of town will hurt sales. And given that Leica have overproduced chrome M8s, I anticipate a generous discount on offer in the immediate future.
Digital Dude
03-18-2008, 06:17
Well, I purchased my late model M8 (s/n 333****) in November at 5400-US. It is chrome and from what I’ve been reading here on the forums (lately), the chrome units appear to have become a bit more popular. Still, I wonder where the overstock rumor of chrome units came from. Conversely, I find it interesting the price reported in this thread shows them selling for 4700-US. Presumably, these are demo units or older stock serial numbers? In any event, I agree with Cindy and other members, the article does not imply the M8 has officially dropped or will drop in price, any time soon.
Regards,:confused:
Not the old "Leica needs to do this and that because Nikon and Canon blabla" kinda thread?
The current economic climate will place further pressure on Leica to act sooner rather than later. The M8 is clearly a luxury item and any downturn at the top end of town will hurt sales. And given that Leica have overproduced chrome M8s, I anticipate a generous discount on offer in the immediate future.
Don't hold your breath. In Europe chrome is more popular than black and the economy is not in the state the American one is in. Expensive car sales are up against last year, etc....What they overstocked (if they did - I don't know where that came from - only Leica knows) over there they will sell over here....
There is no reason they should cost more than an MP, which in reality is much more complicated to manufacture.
Have you ever looked at the price of sensors? That is a reason for one thing..
And you should have a look at Mark Norton's "anatomy"thread on Luf - the complication is considerably more than a mechanical camera.
Actually I think the M8 is underpriced compared to the MP - or the MP overpriced, if you will.
Don't hold your breath. In Europe chrome is more popular than black and the economy is not in the state the American one is in. Expensive car sales are up against last year, etc....What they overstocked (if they did - I don't know where that came from - only Leica knows) over there they will sell over here....
Are you suggesting Europe will make up for downturn in US demand for M8s? Somehow I don't think so. If the US market is off the boil and demand for luxury items pulls back, Leica must either bear the consequence of reduced turnover or attempt to sell more by reducing the price.
Back in the early 1990s Porsche were on the brink of bankruptcy when reduced US demand for 911s fell from a peak of 30,000 to 4,000 in 1992. Europe didn't make up the shortfall then and they won't do it now. Porsche have reacted this time around by reducing inventories by 15-20%.
Leica can't afford to sit back and hope that Europe will bail it out.
Mark my words, you can expect a fall in the price of the M8 sometime in the not too distant future!
photomoof
03-18-2008, 16:59
Have you ever looked at the price of sensors? That is a reason for one thing..
And you should have a look at Mark Norton's "anatomy"thread on Luf - the complication is considerably more than a mechanical camera.
Actually I think the M8 is underpriced compared to the MP - or the MP overpriced, if you will.
The price of the parts is what it is, you are right, however the camera itself is a simple modular design.
Leica puts in a shutter that is completely assembled, sensor, etc, all prebuilt by outside contractors. The parts however are probably costing Leica an arm and leg, since the quality is so high, and the quantities so low. I am actually amazed they can sell 12,000 cameras so cheaply, considering their continued huge overhead, in printed matter, expensive packaging, dealer shows etc.
I wonder what the price of an M8 would be if they began a brown box, internet sales model? It could probably drop in half, just by closing all the distribution world-wide, just ship from locations in US, EU and Asia.
I have not been following the MP, and do not personally know anything about who is building what, or where. The rumors and opinions are endless on the RFF, too hard to sort out for me.
Larry Manuel
03-18-2008, 17:48
"
M8 should drop in price, in line with the new lenses.
I find this thread title ambiguous, and agree with Ned [NB23]. Do you [everyone in general] mean "the M8 will drop in price due to factors x,y, and z". Or do you mean "I want the Leica M8 to drop in price." ?
With my limited knowledge of manufacturing methods, optical design and fabrication, and Leica quality, I suggest that you [meaning the populace of earth] count your lucky stars that Leica exists at all, at any price. Over and over, I read that a Voigtlander / Zeiss ZM / etc. is just as good as a Leica, and just the right price. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that "This should be true because I want it to be true".
The meaning of the word "need" has be pitifully debased in the last several years, and there seems to be a hint of "Leica needs to lower the M8's [and everything else] price" here. An analogy: "You need to give me twenty dollars".
I'm all for free speech, but not for ill-logic.
Comparing a Leica to a brand P, Q, R or S confounds me. The digital SLR cameras are the size of toasters and look to me like cancerous gonads.
35mmdelux
03-18-2008, 18:01
Please provide one (1) instance of new Leica cameras dropping in price.
Larry Manuel
03-18-2008, 18:39
[with thanks to the Canadian comedy troupe The Frantics].
There's eternal posturing on RFF that Leica stuff should* be less expensive. While it might be nice if it were, I'm amazed it exists at all, let alone at the prices it is available for. People who want Leica for less, are, I suspect, the type of people who would happily choose 250 pairs of four-dollar shoes over 4 pairs of 250 dollar shoes. Almost everybody wants something for nothing. That is the new way to tell if someone is alive or not. A pulse is not longer the tell-tale clue.
* Should: meaning, "I want it that way".
The digital SLR cameras are the size of toasters and look to me like cancerous gonads.
LOL ... that's the quote of the week for me! :p
The digital SLR cameras are the size of toasters and look to me like cancerous gonads.
Here here, why the f have the camera companies figured it out that there are a lot of people out there who HATE the size of their cameras? Yet these are the same companies who used to make these small cameras. Give me a digital Nikon FM3a and I will hock my canon system and switch to nikon faster you can imagine. I give great credit and props to Olympus for realizing this with their current offerings of a camera similar in style and size to the great compact SLR's, but I can see anything out of their tiny little viewfinders, let alone the fact that their lens options are sorely slim.
Wake up nikon and canon....especially nikon.....
Please provide one (1) instance of new Leica cameras dropping in price.
7-10 years ago Leica (USA anyhow) issued $200-300 rebates off retail price for new M6 and later M6TTL cameras, even before they were discontinued/closed-out. Then all of a sudden Leica-USA stopped the rebates. They also had 10%-off Leica Day's for a long time too, then they stopped them, but they may have reinstated them, I'm not positive.
[quote=Larry Manuel;779615]. People who want Leica for less, are, I suspect, the type of people who would happily choose 250 pairs of four-dollar shoes over 4 pairs of 250 dollar shoes. [quote]
I think these people are suggesting that if LEICA's 250 shoes were priced at 150 more people would buy them and the "shoe" company would not go out of business!:)
...and jaapv, "Have you ever looked at the price of sensors? That is a reason for one thing.." really now :)... There are 10 and 12 mp cameras there with superb sensors selling as a whole body for 1,000 bucks, I am SURE LEICA can get one for a good price :D...even with perimeter microlenses!
Its all a psychological thing, if the M8, or any other Leica went down in price people would realize that they had an average digital/film camera. At least for now, in the digital world the sensor is still king. Until the sensors reach the point where the difference between them is negligible the camera with the best sensor wins. Why would you pay big bucks for an M8 with average performance when you could buy a real camera, like a Nikon D3? Seriously, if you want to shoot a Leica buy a M1-7 and scan your negs, and wait for a decent digital rangefinder product to come out. Now an M8 with a D3 sensor, I might be interested in buying, but only if they fixed the way the body looked, better yet a digital SP or FM3a, with the D3 sensor, wow.
The price of the sensor used in the M8 is $650,--. That is without sensor board and attendant electronics, and without montage, which can be quite time- and thus money consuming, but is speeded up by robots in the case of the cameras you mean. Those sensors are of lesser quality, more spread in the number of dead pixels etc, bringing the price down to, say, the $ 200,.. range.
I would guess the net cost of the sensor unit in the M8 to be about 1250 Euro. The shutter for instance, has a net cost of 165 Euro, the "leather" covering, 16 Euro...
ts all a psychological thing, if the M8, or any other Leica went down in price people would realize that they had an average digital/film camera. At least for now, in the digital world the sensor is still king. Until the sensors reach the point where the difference between them is negligible the camera with the best sensor wins. Why would you pay big bucks for an M8 with average performance when you could buy a real camera, like a Nikon D3? Seriously, if you want to shoot a Leica buy a M1-7 and scan your negs, and wait for a decent digital rangefinder product to come out. Now an M8 with a D3 sensor, I might be interested in buying, but only if they fixed the way the body looked, better yet a digital SP or FM3a, with the D3 sensor, wow.[/COLOR]
Just one thing wrong with this - the M8 - and a number of other digital cameras- outperform film by a very large margin....The Nikon D3. Those that own both that one and the M8 prefer th M8 files I'm told. Not that that makes the D3 a bad camera, it is perfect if you are looking for that kind of thing.
Iso performance worse than my d200, Infrared / Ultraviolet problems, dull colors, not really a product worthy of the price IMO. Sure, digital is more convenient than scanning film and provides better results on average, but if you want to shoot a Leica I'd buy a M1-7, not an M8.
I should qualify my statements a bit, I am a product of the digital world, I expect my digital products to give me what I want in every situation, my Nikons do that, from what I see of the M8 it wouldn't. I make exceptions for price, if I buy something cheap I expect it to perform worse, if I pay more I expect more. For ~D200 level image quality I would expect to pay around the same price ~2000 new, nowdays ~1000. Which brings up the next point. Digital products are outdated in 2-3 years at the BEST case and 1 year worst case. In the next product cycle, when the D3 level prosumer cameras, or even now with the d300, come out the M8 will be an even worse deal. M8 files are around the net, I guess I just don't see the magical performance that justifies the cost.
If the dollar keeps falling I don't think the retail price in the US will be any lower, regardless of what Leica decides.
~Joe
Hmm... Better acuity, better shadow performance, more subtle colours (dull is nonsense), Noctilux so ISO irrelevant -not that I shoot many black cats in a coal cellar.
[quote=Athos6;780034].. Digital products are outdated in 2-3 years at the BEST case and 1 year worst case...quote]
thank goodness I got rid of my CANON 1Ds system last year because, by now, it would only take digicam-quality pics..:bang:
Hmm... Better acuity, better shadow performance, more subtle colours (dull is nonsense), Noctilux so ISO irrelevant -not that I shoot many black cats in a coal cellar.
and dont forget a viewfinder that would put any DSLR to shame:)
[QUOTE=Ozkar;779533]Are you suggesting Europe will make up for downturn in US demand for M8s? Somehow I don't think so. If the US market is off the boil and demand for luxury items pulls back, Leica must either bear the consequence of reduced turnover or attempt to sell more by reducing the price...
You are partially correct. You neglect to point out however, that the price on the 911 then increased steadily thru the 1990's largely because Porsche had to absorb the inventory costs associated with the earlier down town in sales. Further, Porsche had to fund very substantial development costs as early as 1995 for their new "water" car, the 996. Porsche needed every cent they could get for their fast approaching obsolescence 911 design to move forward with a new model.
Just my two cents worth, but I see Leica as holding steady on the price for the next year or so until which time they can figure out how to get out of the 'fix' they are in. Look at it this way, could they have developed a newer model? Yes. They are not a cash rich company and development of new models saps needed cash. Lots of it and, for example, the current update program is just another revenue stream, small though it may be, to keep their head above water until the US economy and world economy, in general, picks up.
Bat
Just my two cents worth, but I see Leica as holding steady on the price for the next year or so until which time they can figure out how to get out of the 'fix' they are in. Look at it this way, could they have developed a newer model? Yes. They are not a cash rich company and development of new models saps needed cash. Lots of it and, for example, the current update program is just another revenue stream, small though it may be, to keep their head above water until the US economy and world economy, in general, picks up.
Bat
Makes sense. Price aside, the M8 is a unique little beast and is as good as it gets for an M-mount digital. It's great to see that Leica will continue to support the M8 into the foreseeable future.
Makes sense. Price aside, the M8 is a unique little beast and is as good as it gets for an M-mount digital. It's great to see that Leica will continue to support the M8 into the foreseeable future.
Totally agree!!
Bat
stephenpicken
03-20-2008, 15:17
"is as good as it gets for an M-mount digital"
I really love my M8 but somehow this statement makes no sense as there is only one M-mount digital on the market?
"Leica makes the best Noctilux"
Well - there has been the RD-1. Some new ones are still to be found even now....
There are a few points I'd like to make:
1: Aside from the very rare few new RD-1s cameras around in shops, the M8 is the ONLY rangefinder for digital shooting. This makes it a specialty item and as such we have to be prepared to pay for something both unique AND not of broad appeal.
2: It's a great camera with a few quirks. Because it's the only DRF to be had new you either buy it and take pictures with it or you choose not to bother.
Dr. K seems content with his company for the moment. End of story.
, dull colors, not really a product worthy of the price IMO.
Something like this you mean I suppose? And no, I did not kick saturation over the top,as you can tell by the leaves...
http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/5/0/bridge.jpg
Roger Hicks
03-22-2008, 03:14
Hmm... Better acuity, better shadow performance, more subtle colours (dull is nonsense), Noctilux so ISO irrelevant -not that I shoot many black cats in a coal cellar.
Interesting.... I have both an M8 and film Leicas, and find that film delivers better results, but not enough better in colour to be worth the effort. In B+W, film is so easily the winner that there's no contest.
Cheers,
R.
I agree, Roger, as long as film is kept in the chemical process all the way. As soon as it is digitalized by scanning it loses all advantage, and turns into an inferior medium of capture, as digital "cuts out the middleman" so to speak.
Roger Hicks
03-22-2008, 08:02
I agree, Roger, as long as film is kept in the chemical process all the way. As soon as it is digitalized by scanning it loses all advantage, and turns into an inferior medium of capture, as digital "cuts out the middleman" so to speak.
Dear Jaap,
Broadly we are in agreement but I would still suggest that with a top-flight scanner (= able to penetrate a high Dmax) film beats digi even in colour.
Cheers,
R.
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