View Full Version : am i "selling out"?
II just applied for a photo / sales job at our365.com -- they do newborn
photography at the local hospitals... am I selling out? It's an easy job
considering the local talent -- might be an opportunity to hustle some extra
work
thery are all digital and provide equipment -- but this might steer me to get a hold of an epson rd 1 with the govt economy stimulus checks
please reassure me of my insanity
I'm not abandoning my leica by any stretch -- I got some great photos yesterday of my daughter playing outside as well as two low flying military helicopters...
Gabriel M.A.
03-13-2008, 07:53
please reassure me of my insanity
You are insane. Hospital photography? Just think of the babies, that'll balance your serotonin. You'll be ok.
And I've called the choppers off. ;)
Didn't Larry Clark start out by doing children's photography? Now all you need to do is start injecting amphetamines.......:eek: :eek:
well, if I get bored, I can go down a floor --- the opening is at the Regional Medical Center at Memphis :: This is the hospital where they take you for trauma / gunshot / stabbing / etc... could get grisly just being around this particular hospital --- but I figure I can use my skills in photography to pull better pics than the average salesperson with a dslr.
Didn't Larry Clark start out by doing children's photography? Now all you need to do is start injecting amphetamines.......:eek: :eek:
I prefer the route of Dr. House - Vicodin, Darvocet, pain pills., pot .. not much of a speed junkie... plus the enamel on my teeth is already shot
;)
I don't abuse substances anymore as I've got to try to give a good example for my daughter
never heard of Larry Clark -- sounds interesting
Leicas have this mystique of being the artists camera... high art, DDD, Eggelston, etc... I dealt with the dicotomy of Art for Art's sake vs. commercialism and mainstream work in art school - i need to put bread on the table, and it pays better than doing stick up jobs on the local 7-11 (and safer) --- maybe I can bring some nice touches to the baby portraiture... and any way you look at it, it's better than the photo booth at sears or glamour shots...
Bread and butter my friend. Nothing wrong with putting food on the table and paying for a roof over yer head. One job always lead to another.....
Here those kind of jobs pay the lowest of lows and they hire just about everybody who's a nobody. I don't have anything against people taking those jobs, but my advise is to get a better paid job and photograph for fun until the right thing comes along. I don't think you will have a better chance of moving up from that kind of job instead of doing things you are really passionate about.
And then, don't feel bad about making money on strait forward photography. Even Magnum and VII photographers have to bring bread to the table, and doing photography books and long journeys in to the jungle for National Geographic don't bring that much bacon. You have to do the boring to do the fun. It's all about passion i guess.
M. Valdemar
03-13-2008, 09:59
What's wrong with taking a job because you need money?
I'd hardly call that "selling out". "Selling out" from what? Unemployment?
If you can get a job doing something that even has some marginal interest for you (such as photography), you're doing better than most people. You never know who you might meet or what any job can lead to.
What nonsense.
since the it market here has dried up for tech support and php web design, If they offer, I'll work it... yeah, they hire a bunch of schmoes... and it's commission -- but at least it's more enjoyable (to me) than being stuck in a warehouse or a fast food joint...
sonofdanang
03-13-2008, 10:20
Ignore #8 as well intentioned as he is. If you actually get a "better paid job", you will usually have to trade more of your life, thus energy, for it. Getting paid to take pictures? Perfect. Every shutter actuation is a step towards better art, better technique. Print independant business cards and, where the circumstances allow, hand them out. "Whose your photographer?" "Oh I met him on another photo job/baby shoot/emerg shooting for the local paper,".... sounds a lot better than, "Oh, I ran into him in a restaraunt where he's a bartender and he said he was a PHOTOGRAPHER." Word of mouth, baby. Word of mouth. And a body of work. Between those two floors you will have lots of interesting subject matter. Carry your Leica "it's a mechanical back-up, boss!" at all times.
One last piece of advice - carry your own memory card/stick so that if you see something newsworthy (I'm thinking the emerg here) you can slap it into your employer's digital and not get you images mixed up in the baby workflow. Worst case, you get fired, you still own your images. On your data card.
Steve Bellayr
03-13-2008, 10:22
Yes, take the job until something better comes along. Don't worry they won't be committed to you & you won't be married to them.
SolaresLarrave
03-13-2008, 10:23
A job is a job is a job... and it doesn't have to define you. It's a job, I don't understand how it could be seen as you selling out. Now, go and do your best.
Ignore #8 as well intentioned as he is. If you actually get a "better paid job", you will usually have to trade more of your life, thus energy, for it. Getting paid to take pictures? Perfect. Every shutter actuation is a step towards better art, better technique. Print independant business cards and, where the circumstances allow, hand them out. "Whose your photographer?" "Oh I met him on another photo job/baby shoot/emerg shooting for the local paper,".... sounds a lot better than, "Oh, I ran into him in a restaraunt where he's a bartender and he said he was a PHOTOGRAPHER." Word of mouth, baby. Word of mouth. And a body of work. Between those two floors you will have lots of interesting subject matter. Carry your Leica "it's a mechanical back-up, boss!" at all times.
One last piece of advice - carry your own memory card/stick so that if you see something newsworthy (I'm thinking the emerg here) you can slap it into your employer's digital and not get you images mixed up in the baby workflow. Worst case, you get fired, you still own your images. On your data card.
hadf already thought that through --- the leica / rollei doesn't really add much to whatever kit... plus gives a side hustle / portfolio builder (life is a portfolio builder it seems) and can always scoop for the paper as we've a high crime rate and there is always something there... plus I'm already in the building when the fan gets hit...
was planning on carrying my own mem card as well...
very sound advice...
thanks much
ok, my mind is at rest... I picked up the "selling out" thought process at art school --- it's one of the bad habits that gets in your subconscious in institutions like that...
Plus, in a few weeks, how many of these families will want a portrait photographer...
waiting on them to call back... The nice thing is, it's a 10 minute drive and babies are born at all hours... so, I'm sure there's no lack of clientelle...
4/10 of all our news reports on tv are based from the front doors of this hospital, so, there may be a chance for some serious pj work as well
Nothing wrong with getting paid. Go for it. It probably won't be this way where you're going, but the hospital where I work (in IT) has the maternity ward on the same floor as the psych ward.
Hell No man....just do it.
And do it your way.
pesphoto
03-13-2008, 10:56
We all need to pay the bills somehow. Dont let it stop you from also shooting your personal work too.
speaking of personal work... yesterday, my daughter was playing outside with the sidewalk chalk and I had been using the rolleiflex and taking some pics of her as she played with the bubbles and the sidewalk chalk... then I switched to the leica.... I heard a low rumble in the air... in the distance, I saw 2 low flying military helicopters - fully loaded and armed... I focused my 50mm lens on infinity and snapped off a few hopefully great shots --- should have the film back from the lab tomorrow --- the two helicopters were impressive... it was like a scene out of Apocalypse Now - I even heard Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries in my head... the two choppers were low enough that they filled the frame pretty good on my 50mm lens
Good luck with the new job. Not sure if possible but I look forward to seeing cool baby pictures (my youngest is already 5 :))
Most future employers will look at your resume and see that you have experience in photograpy. None of them will look askance at the type of photography. You don't have to divulge your income on a resume. You state your desired income.
In the meantime, use the work you do to enhance your skills. Do the best job you can as described in the job description, so that your employer, once he is an ex-employer will give you glowing praise as a hard worker. If it's a numbers job (as many photos as possible in the time allotted) first do the numbers and then sharpen the technique and images.
If you like photography, and if you would like photography to be a paid profession, this is a stepping stone.
You'd be selling out if those are your goals and you don't take the opportunity to start building a profile for yourself. You can still do creative stuff on the side. Work on a portfolio as you go along.
Just do it. It's not a lifetime committment. The employer knows that.... that's why they do not have a highly selective empoyment policy. How would they run a numbers business if they held out for people who are already professional or who have significant credentials.
It's Opportunity!
Let me also add that about 20 years ago, I passed on an opportunity to do just such work because I was "too uppity" for it. I believe now, I made a large mistake.
charjohncarter
03-13-2008, 11:32
Hey, you can make every job interesting and challenging (I even did it at a gas station once). Be the best newborn photographer in the world.
some of my newborn / infant work
I guess I am just down a bit about some of the junk in my life....
there's not much market here for arts or it and moving is impossible right now...
Brian Sweeney
03-13-2008, 11:53
It is a professional position doing real work that new parents and their relatives will appreciate. Do a good job at it.
Selling out would be viewing it as a crap job and shortchanging your clients on quality pictures of a precious memory.
NOW! Get in there and take some good photos!
williams473
03-13-2008, 12:48
I know what you mean about worrying about "selling out," but earning a living and doing art work are two different things entriely, so there's no danger as long as the two don't cross. Art is entirely academic and the artist doesn't benefit at all for thinking about how to make a living from it while creating it - in fact it's a liability to do so. Trying to market Art is best left to someone who isn't creating it.
From this photographer's perspective, shooting Art is a much more private, personal act than anything I would ever do for money. Just because I've earned money shooting weddings, working for a newspaper, and other small commissions, I would consider that kind of work "photography" only in that a camera is being used to make the pictures, but that's it. That's where I draw the line in my mind. Shooting a wedding FOR someone is an entirely different thing than shooting it for ME, you know?
So I would just look at it that way - but I have to disagree with a couple people - I don't think this job it will help polish your skills very much - you probably already know how to properly shoot and print. For your eye to progress and come in line with how you feel and express, you have to be shooting for Art and no other reason. The people you work for often have a vision for what they expect from you, and since you are basically their employee, it is your duty to give it to them. I once had a contract with a University for a while, shooting their events for the Communications staff. I had their PR woman right over my shoulder most of the time telling me "which shots to get." I wanted to club her - pure drudgery. I'd rather earn my living doing what I do for a paycheck, and leave my shooting for pleasure and the gratification of creation. I found when I had steady work as a newspaper photographer, I did a lot less Art shooting, because the last thing I wanted to do in my free time, was pick up the camera which I had been using all week. There's a guy on my hockey team who's a pro ad shooter who says the same thing - he's a successful pro, but lost interest in personal work completely. Then again, flipping burgers isn't very gratifying either, so if that's your only other option - why not?
shadowfox
03-13-2008, 13:17
An artist will do everything to make an impact with his work.
A greater artist will starve to death besides his unfinished masterpiece.
But the True artist will endure two job shifts and still smile when he sees his family.
Be true to yourself, your daughter will grow up inspired.
#11 and memphis
Very nice. Each has his own opinion. I don't think you really understood what I was saying.
Of course you can do some fun things on the side with injured people. But Every job gives you that chance. Drive a cap instead and shoot out the window.
All I am saying... My opinion and somewhat experience is, that this kind of job will not make you a better photographer and it will not give you a better chance at becoming a professional photographer.
If you want to make good money - there are better jobs. (this is just what I think compared to similar jobs in DK)
If you want to be a photographer - there are better ways.
Do stories that matters to you. Make pictures that makes your body tinkle. If you want to make cute baby pictures and burn out doing so, fine. If you want to advance to be a wedding photographer, this is the job to start with. Is that really your ambition? If you want to be great and want your body of work to matter, then maybe work at that.
I nearly burned out doing photography related stuff and did not have energy to do what really got me going. I got out, but the job did not get me anywhere - hard work and effort with personal work did.
I never said that this job you are looking at is a sellout, but just don't take it if you just hope that something better is coming from that, and burn out in a year.
Now I said my thoughts. Please don't neglect them, but consider what I and everyone else have said (including #11)
Memphis, just promise that once you get this job, you will not rub our noses in the fact that you are a PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER! :)
photogdave
03-13-2008, 15:33
Once when I was in between newspaper jobs I took a gig as a bowling league photographer to pay the bills.
The job involved traveling to all the sleaziest bowling alleys in the area (North Surrey for those of you in the know!) on league nights, walking across the lanes and interrupting play and trying to talk the half-cut bowlers into gathering for a group shot in front of this huge wooden sign I had to lug around. After taking all the crap for stopping the play and arranging a bunch of loud mouth drunks into a reasonable group (my apologies to serious bowlers) I would blast them with the 1950s-era flash with the battery pack the size and shape of a small refrigerator, and move on to the next group.
The first week was shooting all the leagues in all the alleys. Then I had to take the films to the studio for developing and printing, get all the prints home and sleeve one print per person into these cheezy folders and organize them by alley and league. The second week was returning to the alleys and interrupting their league play again to try and sell them the prints.
Now the guy who hired me was a real jerk and berated for me for not having lens caps on my lenses. (Real PJs don't have time for lens caps!) Anyway I ended up making selling more bowling photos for him than any other person in the history of the company. After a few weeks he anted to move me into baby photography, and if I was good enough at that, team sports photography!
In the meantime i was able to interview at a weekly newspaper and the editor was in stitches about my bowling photography stories! As a bowler and a photographer himself he could relate to both angles and was really impressed with what I had done. He hired me right away and I told my boss I would pass on the babies.
Years later both bosses became my clients while working in a sales-related field. The newspaper editor got some screaming deals and the bowling guy paid full price!
So long story short, take what ever comes your way because you never know how it will help you in the future, and what comes around goes around!
One year I shot college frat parties for something like $6 an hour. It was a very useful experience learning about deadlines, dealing with customers, equipment malfunctions and all the rest.
Most of what we consider to be our great works of art were done on commission or to put dinner on the table ... that includes Shakespeare's plays, Mozart's compositions and the best of DaVinci, Rembrandt and others. The commission/job is a business arrangement. From there, it's up to you whether the result is just getting the job done for the money, or strives for something of greater aesthetic value.
And, if you can keep active kids in focus with a manual-focus lens, you will know you are the master of your equipment.
jwhitley
03-13-2008, 18:09
ok, my mind is at rest... I picked up the "selling out" thought process at art school --- it's one of the bad habits that gets in your subconscious in institutions like that...
funny that. I'm taking some classes at the Photographic Center Northwest (http://pcnw.org/) (PCNW, for short). The folks I've met at PCNW so far, faculty and students, seem to be really at ease with both photography for art and photography for a career. I've run into the 'selling out' attitude before in other contexts; it's nice to work with folks who are more about the craft than the appearance of the craft...
NickTrop
03-13-2008, 18:20
Always try your best and always let your conscience be your guide.
I've always hated my various jobs, but with a family to support I just shut up and bring home as much as I can...the family-man's burden that fewer people seem willing to endure nowadays.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no martyr, I spend money on gear out of sheer selfishness. But I won't risk my family's standard of living to chase an elusive dream. That's for younger men with no kids.
And I've always feared that if photography was my profession I would come to dread it....God forbid.
But that's me.
Red Rock Bill
03-13-2008, 19:32
Take the job and photograph each baby as if it were your own....Did you happen to check up on Larry Clark? Two of his books are "Tulsa" and "Teen Age Lust" I won't bother to tell you how much they are worth now...Regards and good luck if you take the job,Bill
Al Patterson
03-13-2008, 19:36
I've always hated my various jobs, but with a family to support I just shut up and bring home as much as I can...the family-man's burden that fewer people seem willing to endure nowadays.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no martyr, I spend money on gear out of sheer selfishness. But I won't risk my family's standard of living to chase an elusive dream. That's for younger men with no kids.
And I've always feared that if photography was my profession I would come to dread it....God forbid.
But that's me.
I used to play around with computers as a hobby in the Commodore 64 days. So, when I was laid off from my IT job a few years back, a lot of people suggested I get a job in the photography field. My reply was "What, and ruin ANOTHER hobby?"
And memphis, I do not think you are selling out if you are taking the job to eat and keep a roof over your head. Not to mention adding a paying photography gig onto your resume.
But do be careful that you don't ruin a hobby you enjoy...
sonofdanang
03-13-2008, 22:48
While I disagree with Lance's position that any job gives you the opportunity (to be in the position - so to speak - to shoot), I agree with his premise that one must be careful not to "whore the muse" my interpretation of his position, and, as he points out, not necessarily accurate. Case in point:
Guy I know, flies aeroplanes for a living. Hates it. Why? Because he got into it not for the status, the uniform, the pay, but for the flying. The bitter irony is that his job is to "make it as much like not flying as possible. For the folks in the back." So he flies airshow in his off-times. He's senior enough to do that.
Another guy: Played music for a living. After 20 years up and down the road, he quit. "Do you miss it?" I ask. "I miss the music," he says, "but I don't miss the business."
There is a lesson in ethics there. The ethics of honesty to one's own aesthetic. I guess that's meta-truth - whatever.
After two marriages - both foundered on the rocks of my own determination to let no-one but me control content, and the difficulty of explaining to people that they must make their own choices - for themselves - not for anyone else, I have become a sociable hermit. It's the only way that I have time to read, write, make pictures, travel - in short, control the content of my own life.
Take the gig. But be vigilant. It's the price of peace.
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