Sexism and photography?

[dave lackey]

Recently, after admiring the works of various photographers from the Luminous Lint site, I awoke one Sunday morning thinking of people that I admire. I made a quick mental list of all the people in my life that I admire.

9 out of ten were women!

For various reasons, those nine women either contributed something very profound to me or I simply admired them because of their constant struggle against adversity.

Ruth Bernhard struck me as one of the photographers to be most admired becuase of her work in presenting the female form as a thing of beauty, without the raw, in-your-face work that we have all become too familiar with....if you have not seen her work, just google up "The Eternal Body".

So, now, I wonder...why is it that so few women frequent these forums? Is it a fear of sexism? If so, it is a shame becuase it seems that I, personally, prefer the perspective that female photographers lend to their work. It truly seems to be different to me.

[nyx]

Internet photography forums are mostly for gearheads...and I think women would rather do something more useful than measure and compare their...oh wait :)

[mabelsound]

Yeah, exactly, there are fewer women gearheads.

I just read that Diane Arbus biography...highly recommended, although I was frustrated that the (female) author didn't give me more information on Arbus's cameras! Obviously, the lesson to take away from that is...it doesn't freaking matter.

[Roger Hicks]

ACTUALLY, FROM FRANCES SCHULTZ, NOT ROGER AT ALL

The main reason I avoid forums is that they are thieves of time. Time when I might take pictures , or work in the darkroom, or do some handcolouring, or embroider, or garden, or cook, or go to the Donjon for a cup of coffee and maybe some French or English conversation, or (if I can't put it off any more) clean the house.

I don't really care about the detail that many of the 'gearheads' are so passionate about. I don't want to get into political wrangles which raise my blood pressure and make me question the sanity of my fellow human beings. If there is something interesting about techniques Roger will point it out and I will happily join in the discussion.

Otherwise, I was half inclined to say, I'm too busy. But that's not exactly true. Sometimes I'm busy doing nothing at all; and besides, I hate sitting in front of a computer.

Cheers,

Frances E. Schultz (check the site!)

[mabelsound]

Frances, your motel photos are terrific.

[Kevin]

... or I simply admired them because of their constant struggle against adversity.

What are you going on about, lackey?

[kshapero]

I was born an idiot and thats a hell of an adversity to lick. All sentient beings are welcome here. I love that word but have no idea what it means.

[bmattock]

So, now, I wonder...why is it that so few women frequent these forums? Is it a fear of sexism?

Fear of sexism? I kind of doubt that. Have you seen how most women on discussion forums are treated? They are sniffed, pawed at, and chased around by the men, who suddenly stop fighting over Leica accessories and start offering to send her cameras, lenses, and oh by the way, would she mind posing sometime, or taking a self-portrait that they could gaze at in the wee hours of the night? It's not fear of sexism, it's fear of virtual sexual assault. By nerds.

[Todd.Hanz]

ACTUALLY, FROM FRANCES SCHULTZ, NOT ROGER AT ALL

The main reason I avoid forums is that they are thieves of time. Time when I might take pictures , or work in the darkroom, or do some handcolouring, or embroider, or garden, or cook, or go to the Donjon for a cup of coffee and maybe some French or English conversation, or (if I can't put it off any more) clean the house.

I don't really care about the detail that many of the 'gearheads' are so passionate about. I don't want to get into political wrangles which raise my blood pressure and make me question the sanity of my fellow human beings. If there is something interesting about techniques Roger will point it out and I will happily join in the discussion.

Otherwise, I was half inclined to say, I'm too busy. But that's not exactly true. Sometimes I'm busy doing nothing at all; and besides, I hate sitting in front of a computer.

Cheers,

Frances E. Schultz (check the site!)



well said...nothing to add ;)

Todd

[RML]

Women photogs perhaps care more for shooting with than blabbing about gear. :)

[Spider67]

I rememeber when I got my first PC how me and my gf reacted:

I - learned immediately about RAMs, Accessories etc basically things that are needed when you buy a new one which happens every 2-3 years
She - knew how to use the applications like word processing and spreadsheets in no time things needed daily.

Hi Frances thanks for your input: I concur Comoputers rarely keep me in my sparetime....during my office hours RFF is like a window of my prison cell

[williams473]

Yeah I have to concur that the main reason is probably the female aversion to tech-talk. Most women I knew in photo school, and my good friend and mentor (a woman) have no desire to talk shop about cameras, beyond learning to use them - nor do I for that matter. I have a great respect for a finely made camera, and I love that there are gearheads to consult on sites like this when I have a technical question, but in my experience women don't get competitive and demonstrative about the machines they own. Course, that's a massive generalization, but I think if more posts were about how we FEEL about photography versus how we DO photography, a great many more women would join in.

[bobbyrab]

I think those of us who like cars, cameras, hi fi, whatever your passion, it often revolves around impressive numbers, 1.4 in cameras is great, not so good in cars. It's what remains of the five year old in us, all slightly autistic, but thats half the fun is it not.

[shadowfox]

ACTUALLY, FROM FRANCES SCHULTZ, NOT ROGER AT ALL

The main reason I avoid forums is that they are thieves of time. Time when I might take pictures , or work in the darkroom, or do some handcolouring, or embroider, or garden, or cook, or go to the Donjon for a cup of coffee and maybe some French or English conversation, or (if I can't put it off any more) clean the house.

I don't really care about the detail that many of the 'gearheads' are so passionate about. I don't want to get into political wrangles which raise my blood pressure and make me question the sanity of my fellow human beings. If there is something interesting about techniques Roger will point it out and I will happily join in the discussion.

Otherwise, I was half inclined to say, I'm too busy. But that's not exactly true. Sometimes I'm busy doing nothing at all; and besides, I hate sitting in front of a computer.

Cheers,

Frances E. Schultz (check the site!)

Just want to say hi to Frances, Hi Frances! :)

I learnt a lot about film and black and white from your writings also, not just Roger's. Thank you!

[minoltist7]

Internet photography forums are mostly for gearheads...and I think women would rather do something more useful than measure and compare their...oh wait :)

+1
normal people (including women and men of other professions) don't spend too much time near computer at all :-)
it's not suprise if most of "forum talkers" are men, and profesionally - IT workers/programmers/sysadmins/etc

[Stephanie Brim]

One of the things that I try to avoid in a forum is a lack of a theme. I've belonged to many forums that were for nothing but general chatter and they tend to be the ones with the problems. This forum has little, if any, of those problems. It is a photography-themed board and we tend to talk about gear and, sometimes, even photography. ;)

[Gabriel M.A.]

I was born an idiot and thats a hell of an adversity to lick.
Hear hear!

As a male, I fight adversity taking photos all the time. ;)

Whenever I am around a nonmale that is taking photos, people stop giving me a hard time (no more "why are you taking a photo?!?" and more "ooh! that is interesting, isn't it?")

Then again, I live in the midwest U.S. :o

[Gabriel M.A.]

Women photogs perhaps care more for shooting with than blabbing about gear. :)
I wouldn't do any reverse-stereotyping in this case. im(v)ho ;)

[RML]

I wouldn't do any reverse-stereotyping in this case. im(v)ho ;)

I wasn't planning to figure out something that works the other way around. :)

[bean_counter]

My aunt is a successful artist in the southwest US. She signs her paintings with her initials, which spell out a man's nick-name. She remains anonymous, dealing only through trusted galleries and intermediaries; she estimates her gallery prices would decline 40-50% if anybody knew her true gender.

Who knows, maybe there are several "anonymous" women posting here.

[Senecabud]

Fear of sexism? I kind of doubt that. Have you seen how most women on discussion forums are treated? They are sniffed, pawed at, and chased around by the men, who suddenly stop fighting over Leica accessories and start offering to send her cameras, lenses, and oh by the way, would she mind posing sometime, or taking a self-portrait that they could gaze at in the wee hours of the night? It's not fear of sexism, it's fear of virtual sexual assault. By nerds.
Hey, no hard feelings, but I will comment frankly about this issue.

There is some truth in what you say, yes, especially for younger women. Being female and naturally blonde (although in my "senior" years now), I recall my younger days when men automatically assumed upon first meeting me that I was an air-head and they were shocked to learn that I not only had a brain, but a very sharp one at that--i.e., good at math and science.

Back in the late '70s I was shooting sports for a local newspaper, as well as writing a weekly column on baseball. My by-line was my actual name "Pat Trent." My editor received some nice "letters to the editor" praising my work, but they always assumed I was male. The readers would say things such as "Tell HIM to keep up the good work," etc. Once my editor asked me if I wanted a small photo at the top of my column, and I said "No, let's not disillusion them." We would just laugh about it. Yes, a few readers (and of course my fellow sports photographers/writers) knew my gender, but for the most part, I was lucky to have a gender-neutral name like "Pat."

After years of avoiding any reference to my gender when participating in online forums, I finally reached the point (the age???) where I no longer care whether someone forms unfounded opinions about me simply because of my gender. In the 80's I became an attorney and had my own practice for 15 years, which taught me that--if I choose to--I have the nerve "play with the boys" so to speak, and it boosted my confidence. But I know many women, especially younger women, who would rather walk over hot coals than speak out in a male-dominated setting.

If you go through many threads here on RFF, you'll see comments that just assume all the thread viewers are guys. No doubt there are times in life when it's appropriate for a guys-only or a gals-only conversation; but in a public meeting or forum--online or off--I think there is a tendency of men to want to take control--addressing each other only and ignoring the women, especially in technical matters. That's not surprising given the long world history of male domination, and there may be deep-seated species-survival instincts behind that behavior. So be it.

OK, you asked, and I answered. Peace be with you all. BTW I really enjoy this forum--even the rants and flame wars! :)

[drewbarb]

If you go through many threads here on RFF, you'll see comments that just assume all the thread viewers are guys...

Check this out. (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2637)

Sexism is a big problem in our world, no question, and maybe after 10,000+ years of male domination and oppression of women, we don't deserve to get to make distinctions about which of our behaviors are sexist and which are not. But maybe sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[mfunnell]

There is some truth in what you say, yes, especially for younger women. Being female and naturally blonde (although in my "senior" years now), I recall my younger days when men automatically assumed upon first meeting me that I was an air-head and they were shocked to learn that I not only had a brain, but a very sharp one at that--i.e., good at math and science. Hi Pat. I can recognise this one. When I lived in LA a friend of mine was a lawyer who played into this. Her practice was defending other lawyers against malpractice suits ("you want to see someone who has scum for clients?") and her technique during the pre-trial phases was to play the air-head bimbo. Come trial date, however....My by-line was my actual name "Pat Trent." My editor received some nice "letters to the editor" praising my work, but they always assumed I was male. The readers would say things such as "Tell HIM to keep up the good work,"My boss, in a previous job, was named Pat, and she was our CIO. This caused much mumbling and back-tracking when we were in Tokyo doing due-dilligence with a major Japanese conglomerate... (:o was the least of it).

BTW I really enjoy this forum--even the rants and flame wars! :)Hey, I assume we all do - else we wouldn't be here.

Thanks for your perspective. As you can see, it resonates with some things I've seen over the years.

...Mike

[bmattock]

Hey, no hard feelings, but I will comment frankly about this issue.

There is some truth in what you say, yes, especially for younger women. Being female and naturally blonde (although in my "senior" years now), I recall my younger days when men automatically assumed upon first meeting me that I was an air-head and they were shocked to learn that I not only had a brain, but a very sharp one at that--i.e., good at math and science.

Back in the late '70s I was shooting sports for a local newspaper, as well as writing a weekly column on baseball. My by-line was my actual name "Pat Trent." My editor received some nice "letters to the editor" praising my work, but they always assumed I was male. The readers would say things such as "Tell HIM to keep up the good work," etc. Once my editor asked me if I wanted a small photo at the top of my column, and I said "No, let's not disillusion them." We would just laugh about it. Yes, a few readers (and of course my fellow sports photographers/writers) knew my gender, but for the most part, I was lucky to have a gender-neutral name like "Pat."

After years of avoiding any reference to my gender when participating in online forums, I finally reached the point (the age???) where I no longer care whether someone forms unfounded opinions about me simply because of my gender. In the 80's I became an attorney and had my own practice for 15 years, which taught me that--if I choose to--I have the nerve "play with the boys" so to speak, and it boosted my confidence. But I know many women, especially younger women, who would rather walk over hot coals than speak out in a male-dominated setting.

If you go through many threads here on RFF, you'll see comments that just assume all the thread viewers are guys. No doubt there are times in life when it's appropriate for a guys-only or a gals-only conversation; but in a public meeting or forum--online or off--I think there is a tendency of men to want to take control--addressing each other only and ignoring the women, especially in technical matters. That's not surprising given the long world history of male domination, and there may be deep-seated species-survival instincts behind that behavior. So be it.

OK, you asked, and I answered. Peace be with you all. BTW I really enjoy this forum--even the rants and flame wars! :)

I believe what you say, but that is not actually what I meant. Sorry if I failed to communicate very well.

It is not that the people who post here do not behave as if it were an exclusive boy's club - they do. Yes, they appear to assume everyone is male, or at least genderless. I have no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is when a new user appears, using bearing a user name like "Camera Maiden in the Mist" or something along those lines - no mistakes, she is claiming femininity. She says "Hi, boys, can a cute 'lil girl play here too? (giggle)" and she is immediately set upon. If it were a company picnic, guys would be knocking each other over to get her a chair, a drink from the punch bowl, a little something from the grill, and someone would probably steal a parasol from their own wife to hand to her. It's pathetic.

Now, in the example I gave above (admittedly exaggerated for effect), the woman in the scenario is clearly asking for that kind of "I'm just a helpless girl, somebody help me" treatment. But in many others, they are not. They simply show up with an ID that indicates their gender, don't make the 'howdy boys' signal, but they still get panted after, sniffed at, etc. Some of them have left.

In my opinion, this is why a lot of women don't frequent forums such as this one - or perhaps I should modify that to say why they do not post but remain in lurker mode. It might also be that I am somewhat sensitive to it. I do not understand why men my own age, apparently sufficiently mature and some married, have to act like hormone-driven nerd boys when a woman walks in the room. It's like you can see them all hiding their wedding rings while they begin to drop subtle double-entendres to see how they'll be taken. When it gets to the stage of asking for personal photos from the woman in question, it's gotten beyond disgusting.

My 2 cents. You may note that until you spoke up, everyone ignored my statement as if I had not made it. If they disagreed, you'd think they'd take issue with it. But most of them know exactly what I'm talking about, so they'd rather pretend it doesn't occur.

[bmattock]

Check this out. (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2637)

Sexism is a big problem in our world, no question, and maybe after 10,000+ years of male domination and oppression of women, we don't deserve to get to make distinctions about which of our behaviors are sexist and which are not. But maybe sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If I logged in here with a clearly feminine screen name, and began asking innocent questions to show I was new to photography and just wanted to learn, and posted a photo of myself that showed me to be a lovely young thing, men would be standing in line to answer my questions, offering to send me cameras, film, and come over to help me understand it all if I lived within 500 miles of them.

That's the truth - and that happens here and on other forums like this one.

New users who are NOT clearly female get help too - and sometimes members make kind offers of equipment, etc - but not the way they stumble over themselves to help a new female user - followed by double-entendre jokes, hints about personal photo sessions, and so on. Icky.

[Keith]

Imaginary scenario to contemplate ... a female RFFer posts a pic of her naked partner in a thread. The guy is drop dead gorgeous and the pic is tastefully taken.

What do you think the reaction would be from the forum members, mods etc? :angel:

[RML]

Imaginary scenario to contemplate ... a female RFFer posts a pic of her naked partner in a thread. The guy is drop dead gorgeous and the pic is tastefully taken.

What do you think the reaction would be from the forum members, mods etc? :angel:

Do you happen to have such a GF? And such a photo of yourself? :)

[Pherdinand]

what male domination? Women were the ones truly in power, behind the scenes. Always. :)

AS said very briefly and precisely in the very first answer: This is a gear oriented forum, women get bored of most of the discussion. Out of sixteen "active threads", onlt TWO have a title that does not scream GEAR DISCUSSION. And even those are slowly drifting towards gear discussions.

[Pherdinand]

Imaginary scenario to contemplate ... a female RFFer posts a pic of her naked partner in a thread. The guy is drop dead gorgeous and the pic is tastefully taken.

What do you think the reaction would be from the forum members, mods etc? :angel:

I think it would be fairly treated from the moderators part. Would get a few congratulating comments, and would die out quickly due to lack of real interest.

[Kevin]

Just what are you people going on about? You talk as if biological gender roles are somehow unnatural and wrong. Well let me tell you something ... you're completely misguided about this. Men are men (think masculinity) and women are women (think femininity). There is no need for one gender to act like the other and subsume the other gender's role and natural behaviour. You'll kill off your race if you keep that up.

[Pherdinand]

agree with Kevin.
Men can be and can act like men without getting annoying, aggressive, or "hormon-loaded nerd" -like.
And women should in my view look and behave at least a bit feminine.
We can be different in life, without being unequal in front og God, the Law, or whatever you believe in.

Let me tell you a small anecdote about it. I had a few women colleagues at my previous job discussing an interesting happening. One of them was complaining that "a rather ugly guy" was staring at her in the train, especially at her deep decolte. Decoltage. You know, that thing. Some other time, same three women were discussing in the coffee break how sexy a certain dutch actor is, and one of them met him in a bar in amsterdam, and they had "eye contact", and she thinks he was flirting with her.
Let's face it, guys. If we are attractive looking, we get "eye contact" and we "flirt". If we are ugly, old and bald, the very same action is called "staring", "stalking", "unwanted attention" or even sexual harrassment. That's how nature works:)

[mfunnell]

That's how nature works:)Please, please, give me a break! Changing the direction of a thread from "why ladies don't participate" to "why nerds feel bad", and what they're going to say about it, should be seen as a self-answering question. Really.

I say this as someone who is, by any standard you might care to name, a fully-paid-up, propellor-headed techno-nerd. But that's just my day job...

...Mike

[Pherdinand]

It's not really changing the direction. The answer to the original question was given in the first reply. Any further blah blah is just coffee-table discussion, with a natural small scatter around the original (answered) question.

And it's not about "why nerds feel bad". It's about the inconsistency of feminism / female emancipation that happens sometimes.

[dmr]

I really think there are two issues here which have become blurred into one ...

First is sexism in the craft of photography.

Second is sexism in online forums (fora?).

As far as sexism in photography, sure, some photographers are sexist, just like some of them are racist and prejudiced in other ways.

However, I've always considered photography, particularly as an avocation, as an equal-opportunity craft.

Even in the early 1970s, girls as well as boys were getting into semi-serious photography.

There were women in the business back then and before. Jackie K-O could drive a Speed Graphic, Julia Scully's column was right up there with Herb The K, and if you want an atypical example, google Bunny Yeager! There are countless other noted women photographers, then and now.

Then there's the whole issue of sexism in online fora.

I recall my younger days when men automatically assumed upon first meeting me that I was an air-head and they were shocked to learn that I not only had a brain, but a very sharp one at that--i.e., good at math and science.

I'm not blonde, but I hear ya. :) I've found that if you come off like a ditz, you will be treated as such. This applies in real life, on line, in business, socially, etc. If you come off as having brains and confidence, only the hardcore jerks will view you as less than equal.

If you go through many threads here on RFF, you'll see comments that just assume all the thread viewers are guys.

This is a boys' club. QED! We make up just less than 6% of the membership and that's been consistent as long as the poll has been running.

IIRC, one other photo board I'm on runs about 25% women. One in the UK that I used to read was close to 50% women.

And, speaking very freely, sometimes I admit to enjoying being the only hen at the stag party. :) :) :) (NO, not what some of you are thinking!) :) :)

BTW I really enjoy this forum--even the rants and flame wars! :)

Actually, this forum is one of the more consistent and more civil of all. It's on my do-daily list and has been ever since I joined.

At first, I had some very gear-head questions and needs, and they helped me out, and I never felt talked down to.

I've also shared what I've learned with others, and very seldom have I felt not listened to.

Fear of sexism? I kind of doubt that. Have you seen how most women on discussion forums are treated? They are sniffed, pawed at, and chased around by the men,

Yes and no. As I said, if you come off as a ditz, or worse, actively flirt and act like you are on the make, yes, you will be treated that way.

Yeah, you do get hit on occasionally, but it's gonna happen. Fact of life. Pope is Catholic. Bird doo falls from the sky.

suddenly stop fighting over Leica accessories and start offering to send her cameras, lenses,

OMG how I wish! :) :)

Most I've ever got here are a couple rolls of film and a beam-splitter mirror!

In fact, I've sent other members here far more than I've received.

and oh by the way, would she mind posing sometime, or taking a self-portrait that they could gaze at in the wee hours of the night?

LOL, yeah, when it gets to asking for photos, that's when I usually back off. I also don't think some of them realize I'm old enough to be their mother!

One thing I've been very very very careful about is meeting someone, anyone, in real life that I've gotten to know on the net.

But anyway, sexism is still here to an extent, and probably will be here longer than I am.

(Hmmmmm ... which will die first, sexism or film?)

[dave lackey]

Well, the replies were just what I was hoping for...

One thing, though, the world may be perceived to be male-dominated, but women really do have the power to control us. Men just really don't anyone to know!

But, back to the point of my original post...there is a marked difference between the nude photography of Ruth Bernhard and any male photographer that I have seen. A difference that seems to be in beauty versus lust?

I dunno...just an observation.

[bmattock]

Well, the replies were just what I was hoping for...

One thing, though, the world may be perceived to be male-dominated, but women really do have the power to control us. Men just really don't anyone to know!

But, back to the point of my original post...there is a marked difference between the nude photography of Ruth Bernhard and any male photographer that I have seen. A difference that seems to be in beauty versus lust?

I dunno...just an observation.

You might want to revisit your original post. That's not the question you asked. You rambled on about how you prefer female photographers to males, and then you asked:


So, now, I wonder...why is it that so few women frequent these forums? Is it a fear of sexism?

And that was the question we have all (in a way) attempted to answer.

For the answer to the question that you're asking now - I don't know. It appears you have an opinion that you wish to share with us, but you'd like us to drag it out of you. So ok, what do YOU think?