Pencil scribble numbering on inside bottom plate of my IIIa

[[o] Marc]

After successful insertion (thanks to this very forum), shooting and developing of a first roll with my IIIa, I am getting more interested in some hardware related questions.

Shown below is the pencilled numbering written onto the bottom plate; the handwriting looks rather old to me (e.g. much like my grand-father's, someone from the generations born and educated before WWII).

It wouldn't surprise me if anyone had the same (numbering? code? or even handwriting?) inside their mid 1930's Leica, IIIa or other.
I'd be interested in getting to know of its significane (if any). [ mine's serial no. is 164728, by the way ]

Apologies if I have overlooked any older threads dealing with this question - and apologies for the quality of my quick and dirty mobile phone shot illustration below. I obviously couldn't have shot this with my Leica :-)

Cheers,
Marc

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56908&stc=1&d=1204998091

[crawdiddy]

Interesting question, [o]Marc. I checked my IIIf, which I suppose must be about 20 years newer than your IIIa, and I found no pencilled lettering on the inside bottom plate.

I'll be curious to hear what others report.

[sepiareverb]

Another iiif without any secret code.

[MikeL]

My Leica Standard from 1930 has a penciled number on the bottom. A Standard from 1931 (bought by the same owner) that was later converted to a III does not have a penciled number on the bottom of the camera, but does on the bottom cover.

[sepiareverb]

Perhaps a phone number? Lonely Leitz assembler hoping for a night out?

[john neal]

It could be either a dealer's stock no or a repairer's code.

I had a IIIa with a very similar mark, but my III and II do not. These and my IIIc has marks all over inside - scratched into the metal, mostly initials. i understand these are the marks made by the technician that assembled that part of the camera at Wetzlar - they were on piecework pay and needed to demonstrate how many pieces thay had finished.

[[o] Marc]

(a night out) ...with a screw mount insider thus.

More seriously, I thought it could either be something like a quality check responsibility ID - but why inside the camera. But maybe the point is that, apart from the lens and the body (which both have serial numbers), the bottom would be the only part which can easily be detached and erroneously separated from the camera it belongs to but which has no ID in itself.
In fact, I cannot know whether my camera's bottom is the original one it was supposed to have.
They probably??? made them in a separate process than the body, anyway, so the number could as well indicate something to do with, say, pairing them adequately. (The more sad in the eyes of the Lonely Leitz assembler I agree :-)

PS: Yes, John - the piecework pay and the assemblers having to demonstrate or sign their products is a good explanation. That's what I like about the handwritten quality of the scribbling, as the most individually human touch this fantastic product of craftmanship seems to carry.

[Graybeard]

It seems most likely that the writing was placed there when the camera was in for service. A IIIa probably has been in for cleaning more than once.

I've found a number of interesting things inside Barnack Leicas - most often stickers from service shops, but on a couple of ocassions, labels from European camera shops where the camera was, presumably, originally purchased.

[sepiareverb]

It would seem like notations made to keep a baseplate with a body would use the serial number, or last 4 digits of the serial number. I wouldn't discount a mismatched baseplate on a camera, but it seems unlikely. I have several M's and only load one at a time. This might be a good question for the German forum, there may be someone with more 'inside' knowledge there.

[[o] Marc]

Indeed. The number should in that case relate to the body's serial no. but it doesn't. (I was going to ask in the German forum, anyway, and I might cross-post a brief report.) - Meanwhile, web search has returned some descriptions of graphite/pencil markings inside lens barrels and some more mentions of repair or service markings. Not to mention lots of creative ideas about the hidden meaning of this kind of numbers...

Thanks so far, everybody.

[TheHub]

My IIIf doesn't have any writing, but my M3 does. Some numbering and a sticker from "Photo Hildenbrandt" in Stuttgart.

[David Hughes]

How about 5243 being 5.2.43 or 5th February 1943? Perhaps it was taken in and repaired on that date. Watch makers used to date and initial their repairs: usually inside the back cover.

Regards, David

[sepiareverb]

Good guess David.

[[o] Marc]

Interesting theory, the more so in the light of the watchmaker reference.

However, having to vary between 4, 5 and 6 digits (depending on the date) AND not even being able to distinguish between, say, 21 feb and 2 dec would have been way beyond the levels of clarity, quality control and precision one would expect from a Leitz employee, don't you think...
- and a lot of confusion only to omit two pencilled dots in between numbers?

[MartinP]

Perhaps the number of the work-ticket when the camera was repaired or serviced ? These days one might expect that "sticky-labels" would be used, but pencil is an older alternative of course.

[tunznath]

Maybe its a number from a Pawn Broker??

[antiquark]

The phone number of HCB?

[[o] Marc]

What for? He'd never be at home :-)

Meanwhile, a member of the German l-camera-forum was so friendly as to describe for me the complicated chain of service returns and identification of the cameras/process during that. For now, I make the conclusion that my pencil scribbling may, as unrelated to the camera's serial no., rather refer to an accompanying repair ticket or a process number, as an Auftragsnummer, and not necessarily be a unique identifier worthy or possible to track down.