View Full Version : New Leica Statement
bob cole
02-27-2008, 07:48
FYI, from a different Leica site:
''Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the
Leica product development team has begun to review the M system
strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made; however
it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee.
In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into
2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the
possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we
apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook.
It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame
within the M system, however the final decision regarding the
appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.''
<http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/
Translation:
"Forget the M8 upgrade program; we'll likely have a fullframe sensor once, but will put in a new and more costly body; and please don't ask us when this will happen"
Didier
johnastovall
02-27-2008, 08:47
Good, get the FF nonsense of the table for awhile.
But I hope the Leica design and engineering team has a dozen or so Konica Hexar RF's on the table to look at for some starting ideas.
amateriat
02-27-2008, 09:34
The merry-go-round speeds up, slows down, briefly gets thrown into reverse, comes to a screeching halt, loses a painted pony or two, then starts up again (forward, this time). Between this and Bill Buckley's death, this is anything but a dull Wednesday.
And, obviously, I agree about the Hexars. I'd send one of mine to Solms if I didn't need 'em so much. :)
- Barrett
Gabriel M.A.
02-27-2008, 09:48
Translation:
"Forget the M8 upgrade program; we'll likely have a fullframe sensor once, but will put in a new and more costly body; and please don't ask us when this will happen"
Wow, has Fox News launched a new online translation application (Rabbidfish)?
It isn't that many weeks ago that I was declared an idiot by posters here, because I claimed that a FF-M is an impossibility within foreseeable future (4 - 5 years). Now the Leica board has fired their CEO and issued a statement which indeed confirms my posts on the issue....
It isn't that many weeks ago that I was declared an idiot by posters here, because I claimed that a FF-M is an impossibility within foreseeable future (4 - 5 years). Now the Leica board has fired their CEO and issued a statement which indeed confirms my posts on the issue....
Hm.
"Interesting" interpretation.
Absolutely nowhere in the Leica statement is there mention of a lustrum...
Regards,
Bill
I'm sorry, Olsen, but you are confused. The first post is from Leica and it is clear FF is coming, beyond 2009.
You are probably basing your post based on the joke translation from Didier in post #2. Even though I wasn't the one to declare you an idiot, I think you may end up like one when Leica releases a FF in 2010 or 2011.
It isn't that many weeks ago that I was declared an idiot by posters here, because I claimed that a FF-M is an impossibility within foreseeable future (4 - 5 years). Now the Leica board has fired their CEO and issued a statement which indeed confirms my posts on the issue....
Tuolumne
02-27-2008, 10:08
I want an orphan R-D1, but the price is alot less. For $2K, I would take an orphan M8. Not more.
/T
I'm sorry, Olsen, but you are confused. The first post is from Leica and it is clear FF is coming, beyond 2009.
You are probably basing your post based on the joke translation from Didier in post #2. Even though I wasn't the one to declare you an idiot, I think you may end up like one when Leica releases a FF in 2010 or 2011.
Sorry, but that is daydreams.
Tuolumne
02-27-2008, 10:13
''Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the
Leica product development team has begun to review the M system
strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made; however
it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee. "
This is an amazing statement coming from any company. There must have been a considerable uproar caused by Stephen Lee. But which uproar was that? What was the direction Stephen Lee had set?
"In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into
2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the
possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we
apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook."
Transaltion: Don't hold your breath waiting for an M9. Please buy our M8 now.
"It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame
within the M system, however the final decision regarding the
appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.''
Transaltion: when we bring out a full-frame rangefinder, it will loook nothing like you expect an M camera to be. The M8 is the end of the line for "thinking inside the box".
<http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/
Sorry, but that is daydreams.
Sure it's daydreams. Exactly the same Daydream a Nikon, when they announced they'd never have a FF all until 1 month before the D3 announcement.
With sony producing FF chips, Canon and Nikon being FF, Pentax will soon join the parade and then Leica. Daydreaming is over.
But me, personally, I don't care. FF is not an issue for me.
""Andreas Kaufmann will run the company jointly with board financial controller and treasurer, Andreas Lobejäger, on a temporary basis until 28 February 2009, according to a statement issued by Leica late today.
'This change of management allows Leica Camera AG to immediately review strategies and make changes where required,' Leica UK's MD David Bell tells AP. 'One of the first tasks for Dr Kaufmann will be to positively review all options for the M system's future. There will be more details in the following weeks.' ""
I would like to see some JP company release a FF cheap plastic M body. the price is around 1000$, Even without the Screen behide.
nikonhswebmaster
02-27-2008, 10:27
Leave Olsen alone... he is a doom and gloom-er, by nature, but most likely has a point.
The bigger lottery is who will own Leica in 2011? My guess is the current hobby-investor will have tired of losing money, just to provide you guys with a digital camera.
Is he simply preserving capital?
J. Borger
02-27-2008, 10:33
I do not care for FF very much but ........ IF i did not have an M8 already and there would be strong rumours of a FF version later this year i would probably hold on and wait before deciding......
That is exactly where Lee made an unforgivable mistake ..... he killed a part of the M8 restpotential with his remarks.... no matter if there will be or will not be a FF version short time.
From a company point of view It would probably even be wise for Leica to wait with a FF M9 (even if the technology was there!!) till the restpotential of the M8 is fully consumed .....
I do not care for FF very much but ........ IF i did not have an M8 already and there would be strong rumours of a FF version later this year i would probably hold on and wait before deciding......
That is exactly where Lee made an unforgivable mistake ..... he killed a part of the M8 restpotential with his remarks.... no matter if there will be or will not be a FF version short time.
From a company point of view It would probably even be wise for Leica to wait with a FF M9 (even if the technology was there!!) till the restpotential of the M8 is fully consumed .....
That's what I'm thinking, except for the first sentence.
'
"In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into
2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the
possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we
apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook."
Transaltion: Don't hold your breath waiting for an M9. Please buy our M8 now.
"It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame
within the M system, however the final decision regarding the
appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.''
Transaltion: when we bring out a full-frame rangefinder, it will loook nothing like you expect an M camera to be. The M8 is the end of the line for "thinking inside the box".
I'm in agreement with your paraphrasing of the first paragraph. The second one I'm getting a different message. What I'm getting is We haven't decided whether FF will be available as a retrofit for current M8 owners or only as a complete camera Somehow I don't forsee a FF body being a radical departure from the M8, but I was always skeptical that it would be economically feasible to put a FF sensor and everything else (like a more powerful battery, larger buffer card, and all various and sundry electronic circuits and stuff) into an M8, along with the labor involved to first take it apart.
Tuolumne
02-27-2008, 10:57
I'm in agreement with your paraphrasing of the first paragraph. The second one I'm getting a different message. What I'm getting is We haven't decided whether FF will be available as a retrofit for current M8 owners or only as a complete camera Somehow I don't forsee a FF body being a radical departure from the M8, but I was always skeptical that it would be economically feasible to put a FF sensor and everything else (like a more powerful battery, larger buffer card, and all various and sundry electronic circuits and stuff) into an M8, along with the labor involved to first take it apart.
Ben,
I guess there is a conservative and radical interpretation. Your conservative interpretation is a certainty. I hope my radical one is more likely.
/T
Roger Hicks
02-27-2008, 11:14
This does somewhat bear out the suggestion I made in another thread that Lee got the push for shooting his mouth off once too often.
More than one person inside Leica has said to me:
"Yes, one day, full frame will probably be possible. We don't know when, and it won't be soon."
This has been their consistent message for a year or so, which is why I was astonished to read the 'full frame at photokina' message.
From the same conversations, I completely back Ben's disinclination to believe in a FF 'upgrade' to the M8. M9 or M10 maybe; not (I suspect) M8.
As ever, I could well be wrong. I am not arrogant enough to believe that my contacts at Leica tell me everything.
Cheers,
R.
namelast
02-27-2008, 11:17
It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame
within the M system, however the final decision regarding the
appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.''
Alternative translation: "we are still debating if doing an M9 or an R10 for our FF chip".
Agree? Not agree?
namelast
02-27-2008, 11:26
@sitemistic
I hope so! :)
Roger Hicks
02-27-2008, 11:48
Alternative translation: "we are still debating if doing an M9 or an R10 for our FF chip".
Agree? Not agree?
Not agree, because they are completely different chips and an FF chip 'off the shelf' would be vastly easier for the R.
Leica are not, and cannot easily become, chip manufacturers. They therefore rely on external suppliers meeting their standard at a price they can afford -- or indeed, being willing to supply a small, high-end, high-precision company at all.
Cheers,
R.
Leave Olsen alone... he is a doom and gloom-er, by nature, but most likely has a point.
The bigger lottery is who will own Leica in 2011? My guess is the current hobby-investor will have tired of losing money, just to provide you guys with a digital camera.
Is he simply preserving capital?
So far Leica gear has fallen far less in value than my Hasselblad and Canon gear, relatively speaking. My Noctilux has doubled in value since I bought it, if I am to believe the figures. Further; buying photo gear has never been an 'investment'. I relatively optimistic on behalf of Leica, - FF-M is not such a big issue. But price, - and the falling dollar is. The dollar fall, - yes, I am glooming, could kill Leica. - As I have stated several times here.
Tuolumne
02-27-2008, 11:55
So far Leica gear has fallen far less in value than my Hasselblad and Canon gear, relatively speaking. My Noctilux has doubled in value since I bought it, if I am to believe the figures. Further; buying photo gear has never been an 'investment'. I relatively optimistic on behalf of Leica, - FF-M is not such a big issue. But price, - and the falling dollar is. The dollar fall, - yes, I am glooming, could kill Leica. - As I have stated several times here.
The fall of the dollar is supposed to make imports more expensive, exports cheaper. And so it has. I'm rooting for the American rangefinder company to take advantage of this. No...wait...there isn't one? Oh darn. Maybe Leica should move it's new plant to the US instead of Wetzlar. How about Youngtown? I hear there are alot of out of work steel workers there who can work on Leica's all metal rangefinders.
/T
Roger Hicks
02-27-2008, 12:05
The dollar fall, - yes, I am glooming, could kill Leica. - As I have stated several times here.
Dear Olsen,
And today the euro went above the $1.50 level for the first time. From $0.88 at its all-time high, as far as I recall. Will the euro hit $2?
I just hope that Leica is selling well in China and India. I almost wrote 'and other hard-currency countries' before realizing what a reversal of perception that is. Fortunately, I think they (Leica) rely on the US market far less than they used to, or they'd be dead by now.
Cheers,
R.
RIVI1969
02-27-2008, 12:14
from a marketing point of view declaring that they will release a FF M camera in a near future could sounds correct, since it is crucial as a camera company to be up-to-date in this days. It is a blade with 2 sharp edges; you create a perception of being on the loop, that you will compete with the big brands technological speaking. but in the other hand there is a narrow market who do not buy this sort of things just for impulse, so any claim of this nature could put on hold any possible new clients... what a dilemma!
As I posted a long time ago here, Audi has the A line, with all the versions in between: 3,4,5,6,8, all the way to the S line and finally their crown jewel R8.
If Leica stop thinking like Bentley or Bugatti and they read the thousands of posts regarding this topic they could offer digicams between $1000-$2500 to fulfill a big market demand. Digital CMs, Digilux2 reloaded etc, real products with real consumer benefits, not smoke and mirrors like crystal LCDs and fancy engravings. Costumers are far more intelligent than that.
RIVI1969
02-27-2008, 12:14
from a marketing point of view declaring that they will release a FF M camera in a near future could sounds correct, since it is crucial as a camera company to be up-to-date in this days. It is a blade with 2 sharp edges; you create a perception of being on the loop, that you will compete with the big brands technological speaking. but in the other hand there is a narrow market who do not buy this sort of things just for impulse, so any claim of this nature could put on hold any possible new clients... what a dilemma!
As I posted a long time ago here, Audi has the A line, with all the versions in between: 3,4,5,6,8, all the way to the S line and finally their crown jewel R8.
If Leica stop thinking like Bentley or Bugatti and they read the thousands of posts regarding this topic they could offer digicams between $1000-$2500 to fulfill a big market demand. Digital CMs, Digilux2 reloaded etc, real products with real consumer benefits, not smoke and mirrors like crystal LCDs and fancy engravings. Costumers are far more intelligent than that.
RIVI1969
02-27-2008, 12:16
Sorry for the "double click"
Al Patterson
02-27-2008, 12:24
The fall of the dollar is supposed to make imports more expensive, exports cheaper. And so it has. I'm rooting for the American rangefinder company to take advantage of this. No...wait...there isn't one? Oh darn. Maybe Leica should move it's new plant to the US instead of Wetzlar. How about Youngtown? I hear there are alot of out of work steel workers there who can work on Leica's all metal rangefinders.
/T
Maybe somebody can buy the Argus name and make a digital Argus C3....
Dear Olsen,
And today the euro went above the $1.50 level for the first time. From $0.88 at its all-time high, as far as I recall. Will the euro hit $2?
I just hope that Leica is selling well in China and India. I almost wrote 'and other hard-currency countries' before realizing what a reversal of perception that is. Fortunately, I think they (Leica) rely on the US market far less than they used to, or they'd be dead by now.
Cheers,
R.
On Euro News, this evening, a rate of $ 1,51 is confirmed - and a further fall of the dollar (and price increase of Leica goods) is expected. The Fed's reduction of the interest rate was an act of panic; that is the opinion of the financial world over here. With the same inflation figures as USA, Sweden's National Bank recently increased their interest rate. So has Norway. Etc.
The good thing about it is that employment in the US should pick up since more and more multi national producers just as well can produce the good for the US market in USA. - And that you now can buy a huge cattle farm in Texas for the price of a small summer house on the Norwegian south coast..... Mind-boggling...
Roger Hicks
02-27-2008, 13:38
The Fed's reduction of the interest rate was an act of panic; that is the opinion of the financial world over here....
Yes. Greenspan is sorely missed.
Cheers,
R.
Yes. Greenspan is sorely missed.
Cheers,
R.
Hear Hear! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Our current government is trying hard to get back to the Jimmy Carter days of stagflation. And they're getting there.
infocusf8@earthlink.
02-27-2008, 19:43
Well I hate to rain on all of your parades but this move is a power move. Leica wants to be Leica again with no outside ownership or representation which includes an outsider CEO. Firing Lee was the first step in restructuring the company to more aggressively move into the digital market. There will soon be a more aggressive marketing of the M8 which involves customer loaner programs of the camera to allow photogs to try out the camera before purchasing. What has consistantly sold this camera has been ease of use and image quality- so the trial program to get it into the hands of prospective buyers. Leica wants to develop more boutiques in stores and improve delivery of products. They also want to step up development of product. Does this involve a full frame? Only they know and they ain't talkin.' I don't understand the negative talk on these forums about Leica's demise. It almost seems that some posters here would rejoice in seeing Leica go under. Do you not understand that for every camera company that does go under your choices become more and more limited? Do you really want a day when Canon tells you what your going to get in a camera and how much you'll pay for it? I certainly don't. I hope to see a full frame DSLR out of Leica, which is more realistic at this time than a FF M and a compact M that is in a lower price range. These developments seem more realistic than this constant desire by non owners and non users for a FF m9 or whatever it is that you want to call it. Those who don't own the M8 won't buy the M9 anyway so why not just stop your chronic and annoying whining on this forum about it and let those of us who own the M8 discuss something productive on this forum for a change.
don't you have anything better to do than to spread doom & gloom all over this forum?
joe
Incredible, eh? All this guy is doing is just that.
amateriat
02-27-2008, 22:36
\
The good thing about it is that employment in the US should pick up since more and more multi national producers just as well can produce the good for the US market in USA.... That would be reassuring...if we still had a real manufacturing base. (Cars and fighter planes we can still do, but we're not gonna run this economy on just those, however many we think we can sell in a year, and, last time I looked, we're not the only place making 'em.)
Yes. Greenspan is sorely missed.
Maybe it's just me, but I think Mr. G was a bit more lucky than clairvoyant.
- Barrett
infrequent
02-28-2008, 00:00
I am sorry but Greenspan was overrated.
Roger Hicks
02-28-2008, 01:45
Maybe it's just me, but I think Mr. G was a bit more lucky than clairvoyant.
Dear Barrett,
A bit of both, I think. He was a very clever man at a lucky time. Unlike, it seems, the present incumbent.
Cheers,
R.
Life is too short to worry about nonsense, once the Leica was down, I can still shoot with the RFs and excellent lenses I owned if film is still available, on the other hand, I'll be glad to have Sonys or Nikons with powerful autofocus and metering system that are relative cheap that I can buy at will when I am too old to manual-focus. At present, I can enjoy the outstanding performance of leica M gears, just get what suits you.
What's the point worrying?
Roger Hicks
02-28-2008, 01:52
. . . this move is a power move. Leica wants to be Leica again with no outside ownership or representation which includes an outsider CEO. Firing Lee was the first step in restructuring the company to more aggressively move into the digital market.
There will soon be a more aggressive marketing of the M8 which involves customer loaner programs of the camera to allow photogs to try out the camera before purchasing. What has consistantly sold this camera has been ease of use and image quality- so the trial program to get it into the hands of prospective buyers.
Leica wants to develop more boutiques in stores and improve delivery of products. They also want to step up development of product. . . .
This ties in quite closely with my own reading of the situation. But of course I could be wrong.
I hope you'll forgive me for cutting the quote into paragraphs -- I found the solid block a bit hard to read.
Cheers,
R.
The USA as a low cost, internationally competitive manufactuirng location
+plus high workers productivity
+high rate of innovation
+plus proven history and attitude of dealing with issues pragmatically and effectively
+sound demographics
Doesn't sound to bad to me! :)
Long term, I'd rather be concerned about Europe's economic perspective. :(
infocusf8@earthlink.
02-28-2008, 07:49
It's hard to position a camera as both a boutique product and a serious professional product. Since Lee's direction, with the web site and such, appeared to be toward the boutique, perhaps the owner, in firing him, wants to position the digital Leica as a serious professional tool. I think that would be a good thing for professionals.
The challenge will be that while there is no competition in the boutique rangefinder market, there is strong competition in the professional digital camera market. All we can do is wait and see how committed the current owner is to the serious photographer.
Sitemistic have you ever been to a Leica Boutique store? If you have you know that what it offers more choices for photographers to choose from in both new and used Leica rangefinder equipment. One can quibble over the choice of words for the entity but what it does is more positive than you are attributing it to.
infocusf8@earthlink.
02-28-2008, 07:55
infocus, the M8 is a dead end for Leica.
Trial program? Uh, huh.
Sitemistic care to put some money on that?
No matter what Leica does or doesn't do today, tomorrow, or in the future is really of no concern due to the fact that most of us won't be able to afford it anyway!
I don't care how much money Dr. Kauffman has he won't continue to pour good money after bad.
Let's all just go use what we have right now.........
Tuolumne
02-28-2008, 08:49
Believe it or not the last few days has swayed me a lot. I have been using my old canon ae1 a lot and loving it then I was looking at some other....evil....things, some digital.....then all this snort about the future of Leica. I can afford it....but I have to say lately more and more, despite my leica lust, I have to think this might just be one big mistake to get an m8 right now. Maybe a nice m2 or m6 to play with for a while and then focus more on my digital fluff. Hard choices to be made I guess. Doesnt that new full frame sony digital with a 24-70 zeiss lens sounds tasty?
I don't see the advantage of a full frame sensor with a zoom lens. There is no "natural" focal length to deal with. It only really matters with fixed focal length lenses. Why do you care if a camera with a zoom lens has a cropped or FF sensor?
/T
I don't see the advantage of a full frame sensor with a zoom lens. There is no "natural" focal length to deal with. It only really matters with fixed focal length lenses. Why do you care if a camera with a zoom lens has a cropped or FF sensor?
/T
Just one option thats all. And for the record there are some very competent zoom lenses, the canon 70-200 2.8 IS and canon 24-70 come to mind. Also I like the 24-70 range, and the 17-40 lens on my 20D is not all that great (compared to the 24-70 on a 5d or any old prime) so....yeah, its all good. And I got the 17-40 to be a 17-40, and well...the reason are numerous and I have my reasons for it, plus film, the real full frame, those were my favorite lengths to use.
nikonhswebmaster
02-28-2008, 08:56
[QUOTE=Avotius][...]
Leica is not going to suddenly turn into Apple and produce an iCamera that will change the world. The M8 will be refined, maybe a larger sensor, maybe not, but it is what it is. Enjoy it for what it is, a way to use a rangefinder if that is what you like, but keep it in perspective. From the point of an outsider (me) the images most folks are posting are not just glowing with Leica-M8-ness.
I too have been thinking a lot about my relationship with equipment. Basically I have always thought "best tool for the job" so expensive equipment was often the answer.
But I have been thinking a lot recently about "image making" rather than photography, and what that means to me. I have gone back and looked even at pinhole photography, and the Polaroid work of Warhol.
I almost consider my own personal equipment interest (fetish) to have sometimes stood in the way of my creativity. I used admonish students to "use what they own, don't lust after equipment you don't own." Like many of you I have spent a lot of creative energy buying and talking about equipment. A lot of it has been fun, but I can feel it winding down.
There is a lesson at the RFF, great work can be made with old simple equipment. But there is another lesson, too many men get totally tied up with making equipment choices at the expense of creativity.
My gut feeling is that owning a Leica M8 would be great fun, but that I can probably make better "images" with a Canon G9 (optical image stabilizer etc), or my existing DMC-LX1. It is all a matter of mindset.
I am personally on a journey to return to image making, knowing I have an equipment fetish. These days on the RFF have really helped to clarify this in my mind.
Im with you 100% there. I have one national geographic photographer on one hand telling me that my camera is too clean and on the other hand a national geographic traveler photo editor telling me im a gear head not a photographer (which is fluff kind of, I am but he is too :rolleyes: you should have seen his eys when I showed him my mint 1907 kodak folder, I thought I was going to have to use a pan under him to keep liquid off my floor). Hell I have even seriously considered selling my bessa and zeiss and vogitlander lenses, keeping the old old leica elmar and then just picking up an older film leica and be done with this leica nonsense. A thinning of my equpitment is due and a return to taking pictures is what I really need to get on, after all I got over a 100 rolls of bw film hear calling to me, and a darkroom I am putting together with the NG traveler photo editor that he has agreed to teach me everything he knows about those chemicals and developing and all that.
Maybe thinning out the pile could be the golden moment for both of us and many others here on this site. I admit, I spend way too much time thinking about gear and talking about it on here.
Tuolumne
02-28-2008, 10:32
If Leica wanted professional photo user endoresements I'm sure they could get them. First of all, some pros do use M8s. Perhaps not for photojournalism, but certainly for their fine art, maybe weddings, etc. Seond, if Leica gave some promotional cameras to pros and paid them for their endoremenst (and don't think for a second that Canon and Nikon don't do that) they could get as many endoresemnts as they wanted. It just seems that they don't care about them. Or maybe their marketing dept. is incompetent, or being given incompetent orders. (As witness their ridiculous Web site).
/T
Do you really think LEICA introducing a FF sensor in the M system will adversely grow their sales?...really?
Do you really think LEICA introducing a FF sensor in the M system will adversely grow their sales?...really?
Yes, if it means paying 6000$ and if it's the only alternative.
As much as I hate talking about marketing and about "what Leica should do", I think Leica would benefit to produce a small cheap camera ala CL priced at 2500$, a M8 priced at 4000$ and a M9 FF priced at 6500$.
Something for everyone.
infocusf8@earthlink.
02-28-2008, 18:50
I just don't know what kind of marketing would change that.
sitemistic the point is that you don't know and you continue with conjecture, uninformed and unfamiliar opinions that are always negative about the M8. You fill these forums with your views that really amount to nothing that really adds to a discussion about the M8 and is not helpful to anyone at all. For instance you say on one hand that Leica will not have a loaner program then make a statement like the above when someone calls you on it. Do you buy a car without driving the demo? How important is it to get the car or the camera into the hands of the potential buyer? Do you know anything about selling at all? If your not willing to stand behind your statements how credible do you really think you are? If your not willing to bet money on your statement then how about another wager? If Leica does not start a loaner program then I will leave this forum and never return, not even under another name. If they do start a loaner program then you leave and never return.
Remember sitmistic nature gave you two ears and one mouth so you can listen twice as much as you speak a practice you may well want to
start.
infocusf8@earthlink.
02-28-2008, 19:40
infocus, I don't care whether you consider me credible or not. I just express my opinion. Most of the posts on the forum are opinion and conjecture. We are not trying to resolve issues of international importance here.
No sitemistic I don't consider you credible at all. You know the saying about opinions, however, some are informed and others are not, and if you choose to disagree with someone who is informed, by expressing an uninformed opinion, you better be able to back it up, issues of international importance or not, you have routinely insulted and heckled M8 users on this forum with your uninformed opinions. Your negativity about the M8 has grown weary much as the relative who has stayed too long or the party crasher who becomes annoying. I'll probably get kicked off here for posting this but to be honest it will be a blessing to not have to read your drivel.
Tuolumne
02-28-2008, 20:02
I wish you guys would stop beating up SM. Take a look at the IDC numbers for dSLRs sold in 2006 (in the Erwin Puts thread). Leica makes up a vanishingly small number. What's wrong with someone pointing that out? It means they have their work cut out for them.
/T
johnastovall
02-29-2008, 06:04
If Leica wanted professional photo user endoresements I'm sure they could get them. First of all, some pros do use M8s. Perhaps not for photojournalism, but certainly for their fine art, maybe weddings, etc. Seond, if Leica gave some promotional cameras to pros and paid them for their endoremenst (and don't think for a second that Canon and Nikon don't do that) they could get as many endoresemnts as they wanted. It just seems that they don't care about them. Or maybe their marketing dept. is incompetent, or being given incompetent orders. (As witness their ridiculous Web site).
/T
Pros do use Leica's today
Constantine Manos (http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essays/color.aspx)
I'm sure you can find more with a little research....
I wish you guys would stop beating up SM.
Oh come on... He loves it.
Bryan Lee
03-02-2008, 04:50
I too have been thinking a lot about my relationship with equipment. Basically I have always thought "best tool for the job" so expensive equipment was often the answer.
But I have been thinking a lot recently about "image making" rather than photography, and what that means to me. I have gone back and looked even at pinhole photography, and the Polaroid work of Warhol.
I almost consider my own personal equipment interest (fetish) to have sometimes stood in the way of my creativity. I used to admonish students to "use what they own, don't lust after equipment you don't own." Like many of you I have spent a lot of creative energy buying and talking about equipment. A lot of it has been fun, but I can feel it winding down.
There is a lesson at the RFF, great work can be made with old simple equipment. But there is another lesson, too many men get totally tied up with making equipment choices at the expense of creativity.
My gut feeling is that owning a Leica M8 would be great fun, but that I can probably make better "images" with a Canon G9 (optical image stabilizer etc), or my existing DMC-LX1. It is all a matter of mindset.
I am personally on a journey to return to image making, knowing I have an equipment fetish. These days on the RFF have really helped to clarify this in my mind.
I will probably hang around until I understand it better, listening to others.
On another note: there are enough used Leicas and Leica lenses around for the rest of eternity. My friend Eli Kurland has used MPs up the wazoo for $2400 bucks and less, buy a lens and see the price drop, would be my guess.
Leica is not going to suddenly turn into Apple and produce an iCamera that will change the world. The M8 will be refined, maybe a larger sensor, maybe not, but it is what it is. Enjoy it for what it is, a way to use a rangefinder if that is what you like, but keep it in perspective. From the point of an outsider (me) the images most folks are posting are not just glowing with Leica-M8-ness.
Put me down on your fan list, I have been going over the same things and come to the same conclusions. I'm left wondering what camera Warhol would pick up today, while he was a very wealthy man he was notoriously thrifty. I cannot for the life of me see him in any way interested in the current M-8 with its price and baggage, I think 500 bucks on a digital point and shoot and he would be in business, I can hear him saying "Thats Great!"
There is all kinds of documentary film footage available of Warhol working for us to view and come to our own conclusions. For me I have wasted to much time worrying about gear, I have a new photo project, and now just need to get on with things. I do not care what Leica or for that matter Zeiss or any other Euro Camera maker tries to sell anymore, its all overrated.
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