View Full Version : Poll: Will Leica make good its promise for a full frame M8 upgrade?
pizzahut88
02-26-2008, 23:04
Will Leica make good its promise for a full frame M8 upgrade?
I suppose this poll will show the public preception over Leica, and its competence.
Leica never "promised" anything.
What blathering nonsense. There is no promise.
I didn't see any promise either, but it sure will be interesting to see whatever the future will bring!
Personally I couldn't care less about a full frame sensor ... some of the other minor bugs are more important in my opinion. I'm very happy with what my camera produces at the moment and full frame is far from my thoughts!
This is a National Inquirer type poll.
No matter how often or loudly you say it you can't make it more than a rumor.
Heck, is it even a rumor, or just something posted on the internet in a list of desires?
Of course they will. Included will be three special program matrix messages
at the bottom of the viewfinder:-
If you point it at HM Queen Liz when she's having a smoke an error message will flash 'NOT NOW YOU FOOL' if at HM Prince Charlie when he is talking to his flowers' FOR GODS SAKE TELL HIM TO GIVE THEM A DRINK' and if pointed at"Queen Camilla" 'KLINGONS OFF THE STARBOARD BOW'.
Now what a fine Leica that would be.
kshapero
02-27-2008, 04:51
Actually the rumor is, and I know this to be true from inside sourcses, is that Leica is asking its new CEO to marry Brittney Spears then they will do a full frame sensor. I think I have this right.
Ronald M
02-27-2008, 04:57
That was a teaser put out by Steven Lee. He may have been fired for it.
He also promised 24 new lenses.
I am sure they are are working on auto-focus and full frame. But traditionally the lips are sealed.
Actually the rumor is, and I know this to be true from inside sourcses, is that Leica is asking its new CEO to marry Brittney Spears then they will do a full frame sensor. I think I have this right.
Whose going to do the wedding pictures and what with?
Leica has bought the Holga factory and will use that body for FF. The first prototype of that camera will be used to take the wedding photographs.. The camera will need a filter in front of the lens that blocks all light in order to avoid image quality that is not up to Leica standard.
Leica has bought the Holga factory and will use that body for FF. The first prototype of that camera will be used to take the wedding photographs.. The camera will need a filter in front of the lens that blocks all light in order to avoid image quality that is not up to Leica standard.
OUTSTANDING !!
fdigital
02-27-2008, 06:18
Leica will bring out a full frame m8 or a full frame camera for sure, if it hasn't sunk under by then.
Mark Wood
02-27-2008, 06:54
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Leica_issues_statement_on_M8_future_news_184829.ht ml
Personally I couldn't care less about a full frame sensor ... some of the other minor bugs are more important in my opinion. I'm very happy with what my camera produces at the moment and full frame is far from my thoughts!
I agree with you. Once I bought a Sigma 12-24mm for my 20D I lost all desire to get a 5D on the basis of lost wide angle coverage, and discovered that the crop crops out the outer areas where my lenses perform worst. Furthermore because the M8 isn't an SLR the crop factor doesn't shrink the overall size of the viewfinder. It's really a moot issue to me. Would I buy a FF M? If it didn't suffer in any performance way as a result of Leica rushing technology to satisfy the market demand, yes. Of course it would depend on how obnoxiously expensive it was too.
RF-Addict
02-27-2008, 07:16
Quote:
Statement from Leica Camera AG - 26/02/08
'Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the Leica product development team has begun to review the M system strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made; however it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee. In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into 2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook.
It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame within the M system, however the final decision regarding the appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.'
There's your answer -that's why he got fired and it also pretty much says that a FF sensor for the M8 is not in the cards.
Not all that excited about FF. However, a sensor w/ lower noise @ higher iso would be something that I would welcome.
Gabriel M.A.
02-27-2008, 09:45
Will Leica make good its promise for a full frame M8 upgrade?
Where is the official press release from Leica promising a full-frame upgrade for the M8?
I suppose this poll will show the public preception over Leica, and its competence.
What does "to precept over" mean?
Tuolumne
02-27-2008, 12:02
If there ever was even the hint of a promise, Leica just recanted it today.
/T
pizzahut88
02-27-2008, 18:20
If there ever was even the hint of a promise, Leica just recanted it today.
/T
Yes, how disappointing.
Will Leica make good its promise for a full frame M8 upgrade?
Yes, eventually.
rjporter
02-27-2008, 21:04
good heavens to betsy, isn't a cropped sensor M8 expensive enough? what on earth will a full frame cost? the M8 already costs more than my car is worth... are they making cameras for photographers or doctors?!?
ZebGoesZeiss
02-27-2008, 22:43
good heavens to betsy, isn't a cropped sensor M8 expensive enough? what on earth will a full frame cost? the M8 already costs more than my car is worth... are they making cameras for photographers or doctors?!?
Since you asked: Doctors. :D But this doctor sold his M8 yesterday - not sure what that means, though... :) I will probably get another one in a couple of years, but it simply wasn't seeing much use compared to my other Leica/Zeiss film cameras and dSLR.
Chris101
02-27-2008, 23:56
Is this poll binding?
Gabriel M.A.
02-28-2008, 09:37
Since you asked: Doctors.
So when do I get my degree in the mail?
Gabriel M.A.
02-28-2008, 09:37
I suppose this poll will show the public preception over Leica, and its competence.
So, what does this poll show about the public's competence, so far?
see the "Truculenta incognito" thread.
Leica's statement is that they are in the very early stages of conceptual develoment of a full frame sensor version of a digital M. It may not prove to be viable. I have read no where that a ffs would be offered as an upgrade.
Bob
Leica's statement:
''Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the
Leica product development team has begun to review the M system
strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made; however
it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee.
In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into
2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the
possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we
apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook.
Leica's statement is that they are in the very early stages of conceptual develoment of a full frame sensor version of a digital M.That may be a reasonable inference, but I don't read Leica's statement as saying that. Indeed, rejecting Lee's hint of that as premature.
Leica never "promised" anything.
"Promised", not. But their now dismissed chairman S. Lee had presented the upgrade idea in a interview, in his funcion as Leica CEO, which gave the statements a quasi-official status. Later, after they had fired him, Leica communicated that his statements were "prematured".
Didier
Links:
Interview with Leica M fullframe announcement (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/PMA_news_Leica_to_develop_fullframe_digital_rangef inder_camera_news_177351.html)
Article about dismission (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Leica_Camera_sacks_CEO_Steven_K_Lee_news_182225.ht ml)
Leica demento (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/leica_issues_statement_on_m8_future_news_184829.ht ml)
Leica's statement is that they are in the very early stages of conceptual develoment of a full frame sensor version of a digital M. It may not prove to be viable. I have read no where that a ffs would be offered as an upgrade.
Bob
Leica's statement:
''Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the
Leica product development team has begun to review the M system
strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made; however
it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee.
In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into
2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the
possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we
apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook.
Question 1: Does anyone on this forum understand that you can't just pop a new, full-frame sensor into an older camera body? When you select a sensor you have to build the whole camera around the sensor. It ain't gonna happen with the current M body.
Question 2: If Leica comes up with an M9 that has a body about half again the size of the M8 and a good deal heavier, will anyone really consider it to be an M? That's assuming the thing can handle existing M lenses, which it might not.
Al Patterson
02-29-2008, 16:27
Question 1: Does anyone on this forum understand that you can't just pop a new, full-frame sensor into an older camera body? When you select a sensor you have to build the whole camera around the sensor. It ain't gonna happen with the current M body.
Question 2: If Leica comes up with an M9 that has a body about half again the size of the M8 and a good deal heavier, will anyone really consider it to be an M? That's assuming the thing can handle existing M lenses, which it might not.
Q1) Yeah,it's kind of like pulling a Pentium II chip out of my old laptop and expecting the new Dual Core to fit right in there. Sheer nonsense if you ask me.
Q2) What I want is a way to use my M mount glass on a digital camera. I don't really care why the box they attach to looks like. I'd take a digital M5 clone if they made one, if I could afford it. Hey, if I could get an M to Four Thirds adapter, I'd go that way.
That may be a reasonable inference, but I don't read Leica's statement as saying that. Indeed, rejecting Lee's hint of that as premature.
Leica would be extremely stupid if they were not looking into the possibility.
It is extremely doubtful however, to put it mildly, that that possibility has a chance of turning into a reality at the present time. So it would be even more stupid of Leica to make any promises on the issue. In fact, it may be part of the reason that got Mr. Lee fired.
eric mac
03-01-2008, 06:05
Leica will probably get a full frame sensor for their M cameras. The problem is Fuji will also intoduce a full frame one for their folding 6x6 camera at the same time.
Eric
Who wants a full frame camera without 24mp? ;)
Guess who's coming for dinner. *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvCI-gNK_y4 (turn up the volume)
* clue: Photokina 2009, Alpha 900
...The problem is Fuji will also intoduce a full frame one for their folding 6x6 camera at the same time.Interesting thought, Eric! But that's a 6x7 folder, image size roughly 56x70mm. A folding-bellows MF digital would be unique. It would be quite a different camera, replacing all the mechanical film-handling provisions of the design by electronics. If you stack two of the "full frame" 24x36mm sensors to make a 48x36mm sensor, that's not an uncommon size for medium format digitals. But it's a lot smaller than the camera's original film gate. The original 80mm lens is a mild wide-angle, with 58-deg angle of view. For a 48x36mm sensor, that same angle would be served up by about a 55mm lens, and it could take a shorter bellows and folding mechanism.
Bryan Lee
03-02-2008, 04:20
This has certainly gone full circle but is far from full sensor. When the original "Statement" was made about the upgrade it was never credible and now "Lee" has been fired, so much for the full sensor.
I would still like to see Fuji or Sigma come out with a generic and ugly M-Mount body with no rangefinder, only live view and a viewfinder centered on the top. A full sensor would be great but I would buy about anything M just to use my glass.
stephenpicken
03-04-2008, 15:47
There is no obvious phyiscal reason why a FF M8 (or similar FF M system) could not be offered - so sooner or later it will be done. Whether the price is acceptable or not is a different matter (and yes I am aware of all of the stuff about the special M constraints like high angle of incidence on the sensor). My own opinion is that it would cost less than the current sensor.
BillBingham2
03-05-2008, 21:35
All full frame really gives you is the ability to reuse the glass you already have. If say Nikon came out with a lower cost M mount DRF and some reasonably priced glass a lot of folks would dump and jump. Unfortunately the impact of the 1.5x factor messes with wide angle lenses as there are not a lot of choices in the 16-19 range. It seems once again, Pres K knew this issue but few were interested in the 18mm he showed a few years back.
As I'm migrating to a digital space I've given up on the hope to have a really good wide (24-28mm) without spending an arm and a leg. I've made some very nice tasting lemonade and am using a GR-D1 (28mm) as both my wide and backup camera. All my old Nikkors (and new CV) fit nicely now.
We are focusing on the wrong answer. FF in RF just to save our glass, silly. Let's focus on what glass we would want to buy and get that going. This will stimulate the sales of new lenses and more bodies that people know how to build.
B2 (;->
We are focusing on the wrong answer. FF in RF just to save our glass, silly. Let's focus on what glass we would want to buy and get that going. This will stimulate the sales of new lenses and more bodies that people know how to build.
Sensible answer, and that's the way Nikon intended to go with their DSLRs. And look what they've done; FF D3..
It would have been more reasonable for Mr. Lee to point out that Leica's history has always been one of ongoing evolutionary improvement. It should be remembered that not so long ago, a digital Leica M was thought to be impossible at all! Thus a 1.33 factor is really quite impressive already! Given the evolutionary history of the company, it is not unreasonable that an M9, or an M8b, for example, may improve on this already low crop factor by a matter of some degrees. Improvements in technology might allow a factor of 1.25, for example. But as to whether there will ever be a full frame digital M, it is too soon to say.
And that, I think, is a more reasonable thing for us to expect. Incremental improvements from time to time, as the state of the art progresses.
infocusf8@earthlink.
03-07-2008, 19:24
Leica has bought the Holga factory and will use that body for FF. The first prototype of that camera will be used to take the wedding photographs.. The camera will need a filter in front of the lens that blocks all light in order to avoid image quality that is not up to Leica standard.
Rolls of black electricians tape will be added as an accessory to prevent light leaks.:D
Wang Chung
03-09-2008, 17:23
Will Leica make good its promise for a full frame M8 upgrade?
I suppose this poll will show the public preception over Leica, and its competence.
There is a difference, you know, between a 'promise' and a rumor.
Guys I've had some extraordinary leaked information from the Leica factory.
The next upgrade to come might be the following:
Simply send your camera back back to Leica and they will put a new skin on it, that's right your old vulcanite will be removed and replaced by a new skin made with 2 layers of smoked salmon and stuffed with fertilized cod roe.
This is only for the first one, for the next one all you have to do is to send your camera to Leica (via Alaskan salmon express this time) and Leica will replace the stuffing with caviar and also rehydrate your salmon skin. The last one is only at the condition that after each use you have marinated your camera in salt water and that the cod roe hasn't hatched, otherwise your skin will also need to be resmoked with oakwood for 3 days.
$2000(+vat) only for each upgrade.
DelDavis
03-11-2008, 06:53
The last one is only at the condition that after each use you have marinated your camera in salt water and that the cod roe hasn't hatched, otherwise your skin will also need to be resmoked with oakwood for 3 days.
$2000(+vat) only for each upgrade.
I might buy the M8 to take advantage of this. Sounds like a great source of Omega-3.
pizzahut88
03-13-2008, 01:48
There is a difference, you know, between a 'promise' and a rumor.
A promise is not a rumour,
a hint is not a promise.
It was a hint that was later refuted,
Gabriel M.A.
03-14-2008, 08:45
A promise is not a rumour,
a hint is not a promise.
It was a hint that was later refuted,
So the question is "will Leica make good its (noncommittal) hint I thought was a promise?"
A promise is not a rumour,
a hint is not a promise.
It was a hint that was later refuted,
And the hinter fired.....:rolleyes:
Fitting a full frame and alongside software programming is a huge investment in R&D for Leica that will have to be recouped at some point. Given a simple shutter upgrade is already close to €1000 euros, I can imagine the sensor upgrade to be significantly more. Given the generally wealthy customer base of Leica, wouldn't it be just more common sense to introduce it as a M9 with full options ?
Many would be pissed but well, look at current prices of the first pro digital models of Canon of Nikon, they are basically less than 20% of original price, so it would not be inconsiderate to just drop the M8 and move on to new technology.
The camera throat is too narrow to fit a full frame sensor, due to the battery. The only parts usable for such an operation would be the camera top and bottom.
The Leica product/service head for USA was the after dinner speaker at the LHSA event last week. The upgrades were discussed and to the subject of a FF sensor upgrade his response was something like (not an exact quote but as close as I can remember) "certain things which sound to some people like they should be simple, are not always so simple. Putting a full frame sensor into the M8 as an upgrade is one of those things, that in fact may never happen."
Is it conceivable that Canon, Nikon and any other FF sensor manufacturers are making their FF cameras monstrously huge just to use up excess materials and charge prices by the gram? Or, is it possible the FF sensor necessitates such a large camera body? Perhaps the FF guys think Professional photographers need the extra weight for stability?
Technology will change, but I'd put my buck on faster development of the crop sensors, down to 2X over increased image quality out of the FF sensor in a smaller exterior housing.
The 4/3rds sensor, while reviled by many, is showing excellent promise in image quality approaching current FF sensors. The previous Olympus E1 and the current Olympus E3 are pounding at the door of FF sensor image quality. In addition, the new 420 Olympus and 28mm prime lens are a tighter package than that available from Leica, even if not up to the standards perceived as superior in the overpriced market.
Didn't you read the interview with the Leica CEO recently??? No full frame. They are commited to updating the M8 as much as possible.
nikonhswebmaster
05-09-2008, 08:41
If I had to actually invest money in Leica, my guess would still be out of camera manufacturing in 5 years or less, name and design team licensed to Panasonic and others.
Maybe not but certainly a more likely "guess."
dougiec29
05-09-2008, 09:01
Zeiss will beat them to FF because they have been eyeing that product while Leica concentrates on development and upgrades for the M8. Zeiss has stated that digital is an important part of the future of photography, but that the technology is not yet advanced enough to introduce a FF dRF. When it is, they will sell it.
I understand the inherent heresy of implying that maybe a digital Leica (a TRUE Leica) be made in conjunction with Panasonic - but I think that's a relationship that Leica can leverage.
I tend to agree with Nikonhswebmaster - but I'd hate to think that Leica as a whole would disappear rather than exist as a separate division of Matsu****a.
An M8 isn't in the immediate future for me, but the PanaLeica products I use are really great build and quality.
Full-frame is a ways off, I think, but I agree that cropped sensor technology will continue to evolve and surpass their noisy reputations.
I don't believe I've ever seen such an inconclusive poll on RFF - split almost evenly four ways at the moment ... now what does that tell us?
I understand the inherent heresy of implying that maybe a digital Leica (a TRUE Leica) be made in conjunction with Panasonic - but I think that's a relationship that Leica can leverage.
IIRC... Leica brought an economical film rangefinder to the masses with the knowledge and assistance of Minolta, including some pretty fantastic Minolta glass. Furthermore, Minolta led the way for Leica to develop a truly nice and advanced SLR.
Obviously Leica did not share the income stream well with Minolta, contributing to their demise.
I read somewhere that , due to the closeness of the lense elements to the sensor on a rangefinder , that the angle of the light means that Leica adopted the max size of sensor to work within these restrictions . Can anyone shed some light on this thought ?
I couldn't have cared less about a full frame sensor a while ago but now that I've worked out what a great tool the M8 is in tight dark shooting environments I would like to be able to use my 35mm Nokton as a 35 and not the 46mm that the crop forces it to become. This is where the camera does fall down a little in my opinion ... to gain an equivalent focal length to 35mm I would need a 25mm Biogon or similar and f2.8 doesn't cut it in a lot of the situations I'm using my camera in currently.
If they do come out with a new camera in the near future that has a full frame sensor it will be hellishly expensive for sure and certainly out of my league ... I still haven't recovered from having to pay $6500.00 Aust for what I have now!
nikonhswebmaster
05-09-2008, 16:35
IIRC... Leica brought an economical film rangefinder to the masses with the knowledge and assistance of Minolta, including some pretty fantastic Minolta glass. Furthermore, Minolta led the way for Leica to develop a truly nice and advanced SLR.
Obviously Leica did not share the income stream well with Minolta, contributing to their demise.
I seriously doubt that Leica sales had much impact on Minolta. They only made 65,000, or so, CLs (according to CameraQuest). At that time they represented almost all of the profitable sales for Leica, since the company was going into certain bankruptcy. Leica had nothing to share except red ink.
Sadly during the CL era there was no "income stream."
jwhitley
05-09-2008, 18:52
Is it conceivable that Canon, Nikon and any other FF sensor manufacturers are making their FF cameras monstrously huge just to use up excess materials and charge prices by the gram?
This makes no sense. Having shipped embedded consumer electronics devices, I'll say that one does not increase profits for an embedded electronic device solely by increasing the BOM (bill of materials) costs. :bang: Consider that the FF sensors are young and expensive technology. Just being larger means that production yields will be lower due to increased defect rates, the same as for computer chip production. The high cost of an FF sensor merits introduction at the high end while production and integration costs are still high for FF sensors.
There are also marketing and customer relations concerns: On one hand, it's something to show off at the high end. On the other, introducing an FF sensor anywhere other than at the top-end models would produce massive customer confusion.
jackal2513
05-11-2008, 00:47
if a full fraem sensor is not possible and they aren't developing one for the M8 then why did Steven Lee say they were ? Sounds more like he leaked something they didn't want to broadcast and then they backtracked. Or maybe thats just wishful thinking.
whatever the price, I would be first in the queue for a FF M. The Noctilux would be truly useable and all those wide angles would look normal again. I hate the fact that the picture is heavily underscanned for any given focal length.... it just doesn't look right !
if a full fraem sensor is not possible and they aren't developing one for the M8 then why did Steven Lee say they were ?
It's possible Dr. Kaufmann might have asked him the same question during the exit interview :D But not getting a FF upgrade for the M8 doesn't mean a FF ins't being researched/developed for a new camera model, eg M9.
The Noctilux would be truly useable and all those wide angles would look normal again. I hate the fact that the picture is heavily underscanned for any given focal length.... it just doesn't look right !
I have to confess I have no idea what you mean by that. My shots on the M8 look exactly like the same shots would look from an M6 after cropping. If I were to step back enough to compensate for the crop, they would be identical.
This makes no sense. Having shipped embedded consumer electronics devices, I'll say that one does not increase profits for an embedded electronic device solely by increasing the BOM (bill of materials) costs.
I feel I must learn to brand my perverted sense of humor and sarcasm by placing one of those emoticons with the wry smile at each end of my sarcastic comments.
:rolleyes:No, I do not truly believe that any of the manufactures are charging by the pound on each camera sold.:p
My comment should be taken to reinforce that NOT ONE manufacturer has offered a FF sensor camera that was not markedly bigger than the crop factor cameras sized for 2X (4/3rds) to 1.7X (many Canon/Nikon/Other Mfrs).
I think this alone reinforces the argument that, based on current technology of FF sensors (which may remain true for an undetermined time), it appears that there is not a way to make a FF camera in the size that both Leica and Leica enthusiast would be satisfied with. That being the case, I doubt that Leica would risk coming to market with a FF camera at the sizes dictated by currently possible standards.
As I said before, the people advancing the cause of digital sensors will more likely pursue better image quality from smaller sensors than to try to pursue a smaller package of support technology so that FF sensors will fit in a smaller body. It makes more sense to engineer in that direction for the mass market than to spend huge amounts of money to satisfy a tiny (Leica) market which will not sell enough cameras at $7000 to recover a fraction of the development.
Furthermore, it appears from all I have read here and in other venues, the sensor size in the M8 is NOT a problem. It captures very good images in it's own right. The problems mentioned seem to be in how the crop sensor interacts with standard 35mm lenses, and in software complications of the camera. On the software side, it seems to me that a FF sensor would not automatically resolve the issue of the M8 being poor on JPEG writing and White Balance issues. Those can be taken care of without a larger sensor.
As for the need to buy lenses specific to the crop factor. That issue is true for the masses moving from any film SLR to crop factor DSLR cameras. If the average professional or advanced amateur must pony up the money for dedicated digital crop factor lenses, then truly serious Leica enthusiasts happy with the M8 can surely more afford to come up with the additional money for dedicated digital lenses.
However, for that to happen, Leica and makers of lenses for the Leica need to show a serious commitment to digital image capture by providing crop factor lenses that work with the M8 and successors on the current crop factor. Otherwise, Leica needs to show commitment by coming to market with a much bigger M9 containing the FF sensor, using existing lenses (If they can overcome the angle of incidence problem in doing so), and see if they can pencil out a profit on a smaller number of buyers at a higher price.
Otherwise, Leica may be faced with the possibility of dropping RF digital in the M series, expand on their partnership with Panasonic, come to market with a FF DSLR, and continue to derive M money out of a film only market. :D
jplomley
05-11-2008, 12:25
Why not scale back their promise a bit to the same crop factor but a sensor with improved noise performance. I would certainly upgrade my M8 for better ISO 1250 and 2500 performance long before I add a saphire screen. Give me a break already on these nonsensical upgrades. Why should the customer have to pay for Leica's oversight concerning shutter noise. It should have been done right in the first place.
jackal2513
05-11-2008, 16:16
If I were to step back enough to compensate for the crop, they would be identical.
but then they would be cropped for the position at which you are standing !
i don't like cropped wides personally, the space feels cramped for the given optical characteristics... they don't feel right
jwhitley
05-11-2008, 18:44
I feel I must learn to brand my perverted sense of humor and sarcasm by placing one of those emoticons with the wry smile at each end of my sarcastic comments.
Likewise, my sarcasm meter was apparently acting up. :bang: Time for a CLA, methinks...
My comment should be taken to reinforce that NOT ONE manufacturer has offered a FF sensor camera that was not markedly bigger than the crop factor cameras sized for 2X (4/3rds) to 1.7X (many Canon/Nikon/Other Mfrs).
This is true, but based on my experience in embedded electronics, I believe this to be an artifact of the non-sensor features and designed form-factors of the targeted dSLRs. The bodies at these ranges have been pretty big for several generations. Compare the very similar dimensions of the Nikon D2X (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond2x/page2.asp) to the Nikon D3 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3/page2.asp). The D3 is ~200g heavier, but its physical size is so close that it would be difficult for an outside observer (and possibly even for the engineering team) to ascribe to any one component change between the models.
The chip size of a full frame sensor is substantial, but not so large as to be a prohibitive factor in compact body design. Quick searches provide this example: press release on new Sony 24 MP FF sensor (http://www.dcviews.com/press/Sony-CMOS.htm). The chip dimensions are about 40mm by 32mm -- big, but not nearly so much as to induce a form-factor change on the entire camera. Of course, if you want bulk, check out these images of the Sony FF sensor bare vs. mounted in Sony's in-camera image stabilization harness. (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/18219/sony-24-megapixel-image-sensor/) Maybe we'll just have to agree to forego in-body IS in our FF dRF dreams. :p
I'm more concerned about the big known technical limitation: angle of incidence issues with modern sensors, a particular plague of current digital RF designs that causes vignetting. Folks here and there talk about this problem as "impossible", which IMO is balderdash. It's an engineering problem like any other, and requires resources to resolve. If some large player (Nikon, Canon, Sony) had a desire to solve this, they've got the staff, facilities, and resources to make it happen. Leica may be able to work with a partner (as they already have with Kodak) to see this through as well. Time will tell.
Meanwhile, there's film. :D
but then they would be cropped for the position at which you are standing !
i don't like cropped wides personally, the space feels cramped for the given optical characteristics... they don't feel right
I guess I still don't get it. I used to have a Hasselblad. On it a 50mm lens was a wide angle. On my Pentax 50mm was a 'standard' lens. I don't recall me (or for that matter anybody else who shot both formats) ever grousing about the fact their small-format camera cropped 50mm from wide to standard. They just bought whatever lens for wide angle gave them the same coverage as the 50mm did on medium format. I think of my M8 (which crops much less than between medium and small-format BTW ) as a smaller-format camera and I use a shorter lens (12 instead of 15, 15 instead of 21, etcetera). There was a huge advantage to medium-format in terms of image quality, but that's by and large not the case between FF and 1.3-crop digitals where the pixel count is in the same range (i.e. not comparing a 10-12mp cropped sensor to a 22mp FF).
I'm with you here, Ben. In essence, the whole full-format complaint (a total misuse of the term, btw, a full-format sensor -or film - is the sensor the same size as the print. The last time we saw that in daily photography was contacts from a 6x9...) boils down to one thing: I want to stand here, see this perspective and this field of view and I want the same number on my lens. The only real difference being a slight change in DOF which is moot anyway, since wideangles are certainly no first choice for narrow-dof photography.
BillBlackwell
05-13-2008, 09:30
I am flabbergasted this thread is still going.
First, five minutes of web research would reveal that Steven Lee (or, for that matter, anyone at Leica) never made such a promise. What Lee indicated was that Leica was looking into a full-frame sensor as a "possibility" within the upgrade program. Quite frankly, such an upgrade would require almost entirely new innards (new RF mag, new shutter, new sensor, etc.). Any larger sensor would indeed make more sense if installed in an entirely new camera - M9.
Second, initially I felt inhibited by the 1.33x crop factor. But now I am almost completely adjusted to it. I would agree with some other posters that an improved sensor (higher mega pixels, better high ISO quality, etc.) would be more productive in the short run as an upgrade (should the upgrade concept even survive).
Any talk of a full-frame sensor (M8 upgrade) is shear nonsense and pure speculation.
BillBlackwell
05-13-2008, 10:06
... why/how exactly is the m8 hindered by it's current manifestation beyond fast super wide angles? ...
You hit the proverbial nail on the head.
It is in fact in the super-wide category in which the Leica M thrives. So M users like to see the 28mm as an un-cropped 28mm, a 21mm (and so forth). This thinking bleeds into the standard lens category in which photographers are used to their 50mm lens characteristics (DOF, bukeh, etc.) and prefer not to use a cropped 35mm lens for the same job.
It simply comes down to the fact that Leica M users want their lenses where they are - un-cropped. Taking three steps backwards for similar results just will not do.
I'm surprised this thread is still going as well. It is not the camera that is hindered, it's the people who don't own a M8, who think they want/need something other then what is currently available. There is nothing wrong with the crop factor. If and when Lieca produces a full frame rf, great, if not great too. While you are waiting, I'll be happily making images.
jackal2513
05-13-2008, 12:01
the noctilux is not the same lens with a crop
the noctilux is one of teh big big reasons for FF
you lose a lot of its character and a lot of its useability (50mm is a useless focal length on the M8)
LONG LIVE THE FF M9
BillBlackwell
05-13-2008, 14:10
SOME users bill. SOME. i have never had an issue with this and i have been a leica user (film and digital) for some time now. if that's the reasoning for not endorsing the camera i can most certainly respect it... beyond that matter of preference the current form of the m8 seems to perform pretty well in my humble opinion. high iso included.
Agreed. I am 100% with you on this one.
I was simply attempting to address your question (how exactly is the m8 hindered by it's current manifestation... ?) by illustrating the prevailing wisdom of proponents of the FF digital sensor "upgrade" in the M8 (or M9, if you will). But it was never my intension to endorse its line of thinking, either by implication or otherwise.
Since I acquired my M8 about a year ago, my M cameras have become elaborate paperweights. In fact, I am currently down to one film M camera (LHSA MP) and finding it increasingly difficult to justify holding on to.
You hit the proverbial nail on the head.
It is in fact in the super-wide category in which the Leica M thrives. So M users like to see the 28mm as an un-cropped 28mm, a 21mm (and so forth). This thinking bleeds into the standard lens category in which photographers are used to their 50mm lens characteristics (DOF, bukeh, etc.) and prefer not to use a cropped 35mm lens for the same job.
It simply comes down to the fact that Leica M users want their lenses where they are - un-cropped. Taking three steps backwards for similar results just will not do.
Och- they should bring out "digital" lenses then by that way of thinking. Thankfully they don't.
giellaleafapmu
05-24-2008, 10:44
I put YES... You know, if the company does not die...well, let's say in 40 or 50 years...well, if photography will still exists as we know it I mean, then they might well put a full frame sensor in their cameras...no wait, at least a better sensor, maybe not full frame as that might imply a little change of look which Leica conoisseurs could not really tollerate... Not sure I will be interested in the camera (if I myself live that long)...
GLF
bottley1
06-08-2008, 03:17
when Oskar Barnack first formulated the 35mm still camera "standard" , I wonder if the luddites then bemoned the fact that they could not use their 1/2 plate lenses on the new format? Forget the 1.33x concept, just accept it as a new format....The optical concepts pertaining against a full frame M digital camera have been thrashed to death on this subject.
Jim Evidon
09-03-2008, 13:16
What total and utter blathering nonsense!
Consider the geometry of the Leica body; full frame or M8. Consider the optics of Leica and 3rd party M mount lenses. Then read the following excellent article, although there are many others that set forth the same set of facts
.http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/Leica-M8-Perspective.shtml
Conclusion: There may be a FF digital Leica RF camera in the future, but it won't be an updated M8. You cannot put 7 gallons in a five gallon container.
Having just returned from several weeks in Alaska with my Nikon D300 and my M8, I have concluded that the D300 is a formidable and superb piece of digital photographic equipment and the M8 is a photographer's camera that is easy to use, versatile and doesn't get in between the mind's eye and the subject. The color is unsurpassed and the image overall is equal to the D300 in every way as long as the ISO is kept at 650 or less. But that is what photography is all about; finding creative solutions to a satisfying image..
Jim Evidon
Happy M8 owner (in training)
Nikon D300
Contax G2
Jim Evidon
09-03-2008, 22:39
John,
Amen and may that be the last word in this thread.
Happy shooting,
Jim:D
The "I couldn't care less."-option is missing.
I am happy with it as it is.
Best regards,
Uwe
Leica knows the value of their RF and wide angles. It only makes sense they would try. There weren't any promises that I heard of from Leica, so all we can do is sit back and wait. Even their attempts at a DMR2 or R10 may not be full frame if there are any attempts at a DSLR at all...
Sad, this company makes great spotting scopes and binoculars. It seems they'd be better off ending up a lens only company sometime in the future.:rolleyes:
I think a full frame upgrade for the M8 will really make a lot of people happy
instead of releasing a M8.2 or M9
People don't want to buy new camera's every two years or so, a prof modular upgradable camera is what the people want, a timeless camera!
I hope that Leica sees this post before they are going to make a second mistake...
Jim Evidon
09-04-2008, 18:23
"....a prof modular upgradable camera is what the people want, a timeless camera!...."
Be careful what you wish for. You can't be serious!
Here is what is involved in a modular camera: http://www.phaseone.com/
It's only $30,000. Being modular, it is unlikely to grow old. I suppose that in a 36x24 mm format, they can bring the price down to about $20,000, but then again if it's a Leica you can add another 20 percent or more to the price.
Frankly, I'll settle for the M8, upgrading on occasion and see what the future holds.
Jim Evidon
Yesterday at my photo academy our teacher gave us a demonstration of the Hasselblad H2 camera, it's a great piece of equipment, but I think that these are big sensor camera's not timeless modular camera's.
They change too quickly.
I have a other opinion about a modular camera, I see it a modular camera as a simple body which can be changed with other (better) parts if desired.
So everybody can order his of her unique camera adjusted to the users person needs.
Quality nevers goes out of fashion!
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.