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scottyb70
02-24-2008, 12:07
I bought my first folder on EBAY from a trusted and respectable person (I was hoping) I will keep their name private due to respect.

Here is the story.

I bought a camera with buy it now and it was a very fair amount that I paid for this folder. I did not bargain or anything. I recieved the camera and it wasn't the one that was listed on EBAY. I checked the pictures of the camera on ebay and the serial numbers didn't match on the lens. I sent the person an email stating the situation. They told me that the reason they sent me the one I have is because it is in better condition than the one listed on ebay. Why didn't they tell me this in before they sent it out. I was going back and forth on emails and requested the one that was listed. I was very polite and patient. They told me to keep the one I have it is just like the one that was shown on the ebay auction. I feel the one on ebay is a little better. I was comparing the two by looking at the pictures of the auction (only 2 left) the rest were deleted.
Now I feel if I send this one back will the one that I should have got be worse. After admitting he sent me the wrong one he will only give me credit if the camera he sent me was his. This was the second time I ever bought a folder and how could I have one similar to this one, it is kinda of a rare camera.

What should I do, ask for a partial credit and leave at that? The camera was in the 350-400 area.

If he did this to me, just picture who else he did this to. That is probably why he tries to delete the pictures right after auction.

Am I wrong here?

I trusted this person that is why I had no problem with the buy it now.


Any advise would be appreciated.

david b
02-24-2008, 12:15
Remember what it said when you hit the buy it now?

It is a legally binding contract and the seller did not keep up his end of that contract.

If you really want the one in the photo, get it.

Or just send the one he sent you, back to him.

Look for another one.

scottyb70
02-24-2008, 12:22
The auction started at 10.00 and had a buy it now for 335.00.

tripod
02-24-2008, 12:28
What make and model of folder was it? Why do you think the one pictured was better than the one you got? Was it just cosmetics, or different specs (like lens type)?

colyn
02-24-2008, 12:35
If the one you got is in good working and cosmetic condition why not just keep it.

Granted the seller pulled a switch but you take a chance of getting one in lesser condition if you insist on trading..

peterm1
02-24-2008, 12:36
Legally of course, you are in the right. He has not delivered the camera you have contracted to buy and should have been up front with you about this before if for some reason he was unable to deliver on the contract - maybe the shop boy sent the camera you bought to someone else. Who knows but he should have been square with you.

If it truly was a mistake and if your statement is correct...."After admitting he sent me the wrong one he will only give me credit if the camera he sent me was his. " then I would send him another email stating the serial number of the camera you bought and maybe a photo of it, asking him to acknowledge it is the camera he sent you then seek confirmation that he will credit you or send the camera you asked for. This suggests that it could be a mix up, and he had more than one camera and sent you the wrong one by mistake. In which case he should be keen to rectify the error in a way that leaves you happy with the outcome. If I were you I might also indicate that you will report him to eBay if he reneges. Of course if he is a shonky dealer there is a risk that he will renege and take that risk. But hopefully not.

Alternatively you could ask him to send you all the photos of the eBay camera so you can put your mind at rest regarding condition.

eBay is a bit like the wild west and you are forced to take people more or less on trust. I have one or two experiences where products have turned up not exactly as described - usually by omission of course and my imagination has wrongly filled in the blanks. But these have all been inexpensive items and in each case I have put it down to experience. I am more careful when buying anything expensive to (a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed.

scottyb70
02-24-2008, 12:45
I really didn't mean rare. It is a certo 6 and I would say cosmetics has a lot to do with it that is why I didn't hesitate about paying for what he was asking. I felt the one pictured was very clean like stated. I am not looking for mint. I know it is a very old camera.
I have a question about the focusing. When looking through the rangefinder the closest I can get the camera to an object is about 2-3 feet (>1 meter) before the lens focuses properly. Is this right? I can't ask the seller about this because I have lost my trust.

The main reason why it bugs me is because this person will say I can help you, I am the best,Trust Me, no problems, blah blah. Had articles about him, etc.


Who else do you think he could have done this to besides me?

(a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed.

I did this and guess you still have to be careful.

Kind of makes me want to start back into digital now.

scottyb70
02-24-2008, 12:50
hard to find manual

dnk512
02-24-2008, 12:58
Rangefinders from that era focus from 3 feet, or 5 feet to infinity. You bought a Certo 6 from Certo6 :-). Lots of folks are happy with his work, but some folks are not so happy. If the camera you have is not working send it back for repair. If the cosmetics are not up to par with his images on e-bay ask for a fair refund on the difference. The former he will honor, the later.... not sure.

imajypsee
02-28-2008, 12:48
to expect to get the merchandise you paid for. But, I don't think you will.
I've had a few exchanges with certo6 and here's what I think about him:
* he's starting to believe his own press (which he himself writes) and, apparently, so did you.... his feedback rating would seem like it makes sense to believe him, so I can't see why you should be faulted for trusting him.
* he once posted a Weltur for auction and the camera was a Weltax; when I pointed that out to him he just blew it off....
* I've tried to buy from him directly because I get tired of the bidding process and he never answers my emails regarding the specific camera I want (and, why should he since he can sell it on ebay for astronomical prices?)
* his "success" in his cornering the niche market on folders on ebay has got the better of him and, I'm guessing here, he's overwhelmed and can't keep up. OTOH, he's making his money while the sun shines.

Anyhow, I'd just learn how to use the camera and write off certo6. You won't win since he clearly states that he doesn't do refunds and he seems to suspect your camera isn't really the one he shipped you (if I'm reading your posts correctly) so he's going to resist your efforts at redress.

Regarding a manual, here's a link I found on the forum here:
http://www.certo6.com/images/certo6instrux/CertoSixInstructions.pdf

Good luck,
Mary in Florida

drewbarb
02-28-2008, 13:10
Is it possible that although the one pictured might have looked better cosmetically, but the one he sent you is functionally in better condition? Perhaps that the basis for his claim.

Regardless, you do have every right to expect to receive what you think you are paying for, and the seller is obligated to fix the situation to your satisfaction.

As for the focus distance, 2-3 feet sounds about right- but you'd have to look up the manufacturer's specifications to find the exact closest coupled-focus distance.

whitecat
02-28-2008, 13:38
IF.... the seller was Certo 6 I would be careful. His prices are high and I already had to send one camera back after a CLA since It would not fire. It took months to return. I also bought a filter for $30.00 and never got it. When I complained, he sent another but made it sound like I was cheating him.
I have had 3 Certo's. An excellent one is worth no more than $200.00- $250.00. For this price, the rangefinder should be clear and the distance gauge on top should work. For questions about the camera, PM me. If it were me, I would have sent it back.

Malcolm_J
02-28-2008, 14:58
You should also post this query on the Qustions and Answers forum on eBay. A lot of experienced sellers visit that regularly and would give sound advice.

Read carefully the conditions presented on the sale. Genuine sellers state "this is the item you will get". If that was not the case here then that weakens your argument.

The problem with any commercial transaction is that if it goes well you take it for granted but if it goes badly it really sours you. I have been through similar experiences to yourself (although not for such expensive items) so that has made me more careful

Also consider whether the item you got is good value and works well. If that is the case, then my advice is;just walk away from it and enjoy your new camera; I have found with eBay (and life in general) that there is rarely much to be gained by nursing a grievence if things have worked out basically OK.

You do not have to leave feedback, after all.

Steve Bellayr
02-28-2008, 15:31
It is not a question as to whether the items workds well or not. Rather, it is one of "bait and switch" a transaction that is illegal. Obviously, the buyer desired the one that was shown on ther internet photo. Is is possible that he wanted it because of the serial number? There are instances where that was a factor...one was listed here with an incredibly unusual serial number. Probably not. Nevertheless, if a photo is presented then it should be of the item auctioned. I recall that more than once on this forum that such an issue was called into question. I'd like to thank the original poster for calling this to our attention and all others that added comments. This certainly is an issue that is important to all of us. By reading posters coomments I have discovered and made wonderful purchases. Should the original poster desire he can post comments on photo.net & resellerratings.com I hope that this camera works out for you as folders of that age are difficult to come by.

Thardy
02-28-2008, 16:20
I'd send it back, if he takes it. Of all the cameras I have, the 120 folder I bought last year is the only one that disappoints. I don't think you'll be missing anything.

FallisPhoto
02-28-2008, 18:17
Rangefinders from that era focus from 3 feet, or 5 feet to infinity. You bought a Certo 6 from Certo6 :-). Lots of folks are happy with his work, but some folks are not so happy. If the camera you have is not working send it back for repair. If the cosmetics are not up to par with his images on e-bay ask for a fair refund on the difference. The former he will honor, the later.... not sure.

The former he will honor sometimes. I've run into a few folks who were not at all happy with him.

FallisPhoto
02-28-2008, 18:21
I bought my first folder on EBAY from a trusted and respectable person (I was hoping) I will keep their name private due to respect.

Here is the story.

I bought a camera with buy it now and it was a very fair amount that I paid for this folder. I did not bargain or anything. I recieved the camera and it wasn't the one that was listed on EBAY. I checked the pictures of the camera on ebay and the serial numbers didn't match on the lens. I sent the person an email stating the situation. They told me that the reason they sent me the one I have is because it is in better condition than the one listed on ebay. Why didn't they tell me this in before they sent it out. I was going back and forth on emails and requested the one that was listed. I was very polite and patient. They told me to keep the one I have it is just like the one that was shown on the ebay auction. I feel the one on ebay is a little better. I was comparing the two by looking at the pictures of the auction (only 2 left) the rest were deleted.
Now I feel if I send this one back will the one that I should have got be worse. After admitting he sent me the wrong one he will only give me credit if the camera he sent me was his. This was the second time I ever bought a folder and how could I have one similar to this one, it is kinda of a rare camera.

What should I do, ask for a partial credit and leave at that? The camera was in the 350-400 area.

If he did this to me, just picture who else he did this to. That is probably why he tries to delete the pictures right after auction.

Am I wrong here?

I trusted this person that is why I had no problem with the buy it now.


Any advise would be appreciated.

Then why did you give him positive feedback? Yeah, I found the auction on ebay.

remegius
03-01-2008, 23:21
Interesting. I just received and Isolette II from seller in question, and it arrived precisely as I ordered. Of course, I didn't get it from him on eBay, nor would I. I simply ordered it from him off his web site, after having communicated my desires (I wanted the Isolette with the red bellows). The camera arrived looking for all intents and purposes as it did when it was new. I couldn't be more pleased.

Cheers...

George Bonanno
03-02-2008, 00:28
Jurgen screwed me "twice" on a CLA.

Never again !!!

underbyte
03-02-2008, 00:34
In 2007, I sent him 2 emails to ask about having an Isolette II CLA'd. He never responded. I would be hesitant to deal with him.

semrich
03-02-2008, 04:40
For what it's worth I just bought two folders (Agfa Super Isolette and a Zeiss Super Ikonta IV with working meter) from Jurgen also directly from his website. I sent him e-mail with questions, received prompt answers, sent him a check, and got two clean almost like new cameras. The Super Isolette works fine and takes fantastic pictures, the Super Ikonta and meter seems to work fine, I'll find out tomorrow after I develop two rolls I've taken with it.

chippy
03-04-2008, 00:15
Then why did you give him positive feedback? Yeah, I found the auction on ebay.

i cant speak for scottyb (i have no idea what was going thru his head)...but i have many times given positive feedback when it could of easily or should of rated negative or at least the grey one. especialy when one has a low score who wants a red mark against them.

early on i had all sorts of trouble from sellars, to begin with, simply allowing me to bid because of a low tranaction count (albeit 100%). i had to send money orders across the world instead of ppal or appeal to them that i was genuine or missed out being alowwed to bid at all and then cross my fingers they would send it and all be good. ........sellers in most instances want feedback left first before they recipricate...if one leaves negative feedback for a seller then as sure as a fly blown sheep is uncomfortable and craves the aerogaurd,,then the seller will leave red feedback.

who in their right mind, if a vintage folder fanatic, would want the GOD of folders seller's, restoration and repairs leaving a negative feedback against them!

should they --yes-- but it doesnt always work that way hey!

i once recieved a weltur of the afore mentioned from eb*y--took a long long time before i got it, months, was guarunteed bellows light tight as he writes over and over againin the advert. upon recieving guess what---bloody pinholes!

(btw once this was all done it was far too late to leave feedback-90 days expired)

he said he did not beleive it but would take me at my word and proposed to assist me in fixing them...that turned out more difficult than first thought so he offered me a replacment camera, nicer with unequivocally guaranteed good light tight bellows, he said he checked them with a 300 watt lamp!. cool i thought as it was nicer cosmectically, and the first had other significant problems too, rangefinder malajusted and a disk thingy that gets loose on these things and prevents from being able to open the film loading bay, hence cant use the camera. new camera arrives-- looks heaps better--great. well the bellows had a tear in them more than 10mm long, (blind freddy would not have seen it but would of felt the howling wind blow through the gapping hole!) in a crease on the bottom, so not obvious without knowing it was there at first. as i said to him,,perhaps 300 watts is a sledge hammer approach, as all i used was a small pen torch and it lit up my darkroom through the bellows imediately!


he again said he did not beleive it (went on longer than that i assure you),,simply impossible as he checked them! but had no reason to doubt my word so he told me to rip off the bellows from the first, cut a slither that matched the portion to be repaired and glue it on. if that didnt work then he said he would replace the bellows . by this time i am starting to worry (for him and me, him loosing money and me getting dud cameras) because out of a buch of cameras i purchased from hin a seperate transaction (got discount for multiple purchase) arriving around the same time, each had its own significant problems.

i did rip the bellows of the first and in the process got to see how it was built ...and then was concerned because to replace the bellows on a weltur looks far more difficult than an isolette for example, because it appears the bellows are sandwiched between body frames that are rivited. In the mean time (not that he knew i had already begun the proceedure) he writes back and says just send them both back and he will repair it himself with a patch and if ness new bellows. i prefered the option he gave me to replace the bellows obviously but now i am loosing faith whether the job will be done correctly after seeing the how the weltur is put together. i ask all the right questions as to how he will exchange new bellows if nessarsary but dont get satifactory answers.

so by now i am afraid i will be out of pocket (postage etc) and without a weltur for who knows how long!! and who knows what sort of repair i get upon return. so i fix it myself unhappily (i would want new bellows of course) and sent the first back. that camera showed up on ebay days later with new bellows (i had ripped the old one out to fix the second weltur) and sold for a pretty dollar, the results of the new bellows instalation are below, it was obvious that it was not done correctly (have pictures to prove it! of the open back camera) and the new owner eventually after negotiation recieved a settlement and returned the camera. the weltur (or the best part of it) then appeared again on ebay days later with bellows fixed (so it looked) and sold again. each time apparently the rangefinder was said to worked on for hours! hmmm.

ah well what do ya do--prefer to think i just has unbelivable bad luck-but virtually every single camera with fault is difficult to take

i dont doubt that as someone said on here in the past 'he probably does more good than bad'--so that is a good thing hey! and no doubt for every bad one there are good ones as well (makes one wonder tho whether they happen to be good to begin with)

so i cant help but agree with Mary- it seemed to me he has little time, and is pressed. god know (differnet god!) after multiple dozens of emails exchanged and reminded each time he still got my name wrong 90% of the time (yet its written on the top and bottom of the emails-cant miss).

also had emails gone unanswered as well

remegius thats great..you might want to give them a run with film first. but they are what his 'thing' started with according to what he says, and they are dead easy cameras to work on. although i got one of these as well from him fully refurbished as he does,, and it arrived with frozen solid rangefinder---easy fixed with a replacment rangefinder (which he did send me) or doing the job, but one wonders if he is simply under too much pressure to check his own work as closely as should be.


Had the same thing as someone mentioned earlier- payed for filters and never recieved them(have reciepts and emails to prove). also he never refunded the postage costs as he said he would (also in emails)

wallace
03-04-2008, 00:45
I have sent 5 folders for a CLA to Mr. Kreckel. All of them came back with faults.
I have been deeply disapointed. Never again!!!! Be aware!

FallisPhoto
03-04-2008, 07:41
i cant speak for scottyb (i have no idea what was going thru his head)...but i have many times given positive feedback when it could of easily or should of rated negative or at least the grey one. especialy when one has a low score who wants a red mark against them.

early on i had all sorts of trouble from sellars, to begin with, simply allowing me to bid because of a low tranaction count (albeit 100%). i had to send money orders across the world instead of ppal or appeal to them that i was genuine or missed out being alowwed to bid at all and then cross my fingers they would send it and all be good. ........sellers in most instances want feedback left first before they recipricate...if one leaves negative feedback for a seller then as sure as a fly blown sheep is uncomfortable and craves the aerogaurd,,then the seller will leave red feedback.

That doesn't necessarily follow. I have 100% positive feedback and I've left maybe half a dozen negative and neutral feedbacks under this name and maybe 20 under another. I make a practice of leaving negative feedback if I feel that the seller has deleiberately tried to deceive me. If I think it was just stupidity, but the seller won't rectify the situation, then I leave neutral feedback. Otherwise, I leave positive feedback. I pay the same day I win, I try to work out my problems with the seller, if I have any, and only if this doesn't work do I resort to negative or neutral feedback.

who in their right mind, if a vintage folder fanatic, would want the GOD of folders seller's, restoration and repairs leaving a negative feedback against them!

Someone who is honest, who isn't impressed, and who would take being called a liar (twice) very seriously indeed? Seriously, I think Jurgen makes good bellows, but, judging by what I have read about him here and elsewhere, I believe that is his only real camera-related talent. I would rate our own Rick Oleson WAY higher for pretty much anything else (and, for all I know, Rick may fold a mean bellows himself). Hell, I'd even rate myself higher for doing the other stuff. I'm a whole lot slower than Rick, or even Jurgen, but I'm not slipshod and I've heard enough to convince me that your so-called god is.

... it appears the bellows are sandwiched between body frames that are rivited.

It is. Instead of undoing four screws, you just peel back the leather from the front and drill out four rivets, that's all. There is a company on ebay that sells aluminum rivets for "Hot Wheels" toy cars at about $1.50 for 50 of them. When you get the bellows put in, you use a hammer and dolly to set the new rivets, file them off smooth and glue the leatherette back down over them. It's a little more trouble than an Agfa's screws, but not overwhelming. You can run into real problems with some of the early Billy Records though. With those, you have the rivets AND you have to remove the tripod socket too, to get that back piece out (the difficult part is that it is really hard to get a grip on that socket, because they beveled the damned thing -- it is kind of like the greased pig of camera repair).

imajypsee
03-04-2008, 09:14
asking for a specific camera and he answered the first with a query about what camera I was referring to, etc. I emailed him again on the 28th and still have no answer. His customer skills are pathetic.

Interesting. I just received and Isolette II from seller in question, and it arrived precisely as I ordered. Of course, I didn't get it from him on eBay, nor would I. I simply ordered it from him off his web site, after having communicated my desires (I wanted the Isolette with the red bellows). The camera arrived looking for all intents and purposes as it did when it was new. I couldn't be more pleased.

Cheers...

Way
03-04-2008, 11:41
Jurgen has been pretty straight forward with me. Both my purchases were directly through him, not ebay. The first was an Agfa Super Isolette and that camera is in amazing condition. It is my favorite folder, maybe even my favorite camera. The next purchase was a Bessa RF w/Heliar lens. That camera came with a crooked rangefinder and a light leak. When emailed he responded promptly and said to send the camera back to be looked at. I haven't had the time yet to return it to Jurgen. All communicaton with him has been quite good. He did mention that the Bessa's crooked RF was a matter of "personal tolerance" or something like that. I just shot my 2nd roll with the Bessa and the RF is not easy to use so I'll be sending it back to him shortly.

FallisPhoto
03-05-2008, 18:56
Jurgen has been pretty straight forward with me. Both my purchases were directly through him, not ebay. The first was an Agfa Super Isolette and that camera is in amazing condition. It is my favorite folder, maybe even my favorite camera. The next purchase was a Bessa RF w/Heliar lens. That camera came with a crooked rangefinder and a light leak. When emailed he responded promptly and said to send the camera back to be looked at. I haven't had the time yet to return it to Jurgen. All communicaton with him has been quite good. He did mention that the Bessa's crooked RF was a matter of "personal tolerance" or something like that. I just shot my 2nd roll with the Bessa and the RF is not easy to use so I'll be sending it back to him shortly.

Personal tolerance? I don't even know where to start with that.

jdos2
03-05-2008, 19:31
My story about dealing with certo6 is on the forum somewhere.

Here's what I did:

Called, got a high-ish price for an inexpensive folder that's supposed to be "very nice." "Excellent working condition." "You won't have to worry about a thing." (and a promise of that, at that!

Got camera, cosmetically, quite nice. Not CLEANED nice, but decent.
Took pictures... Camera had BAD light leak. Ruined a roll of film or 3.
Sent it back.
Came back. Took pictures with it, camera had BAD light leak.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Repeat... Camera barely folds for all the patches in the original bellows. Had to adjust rangefinder mirror myself. Found the INTERNAL element of the Novar had a damaged coating. Light leak fixed.

Unhappy. Got shrugs from him. Lost about $100 in postage and ruined film. He DID send a free hood with the camera on the last trip back, but that wasn't enough for me to ever trust it again.

I originally got the camera from the dealer after he promised it'd work. That it was tested. I'd been through a rash of used equipment that was supposed to work, but needed expensive repairs, so I spent a fair bit of money for a relatively inexpensive folder. I do feel like he "saw me coming."

I'll not again deal with him.

To be clear, this is one person's experience. Others have wonderful transactions with him.

George Bonanno
03-05-2008, 20:19
Jurgen screwed me "twice" on a CLA.

Never again !!!

Maybe I should elaborate... (amplify as Bob Grant says).

I sent Jurgan my Solida III for a CLA and new bellows at a "premium price". I was drawn in by his website copy, supreme (self proclaimed) experience and guarantee of satisfaction. The camera came back in reasonable time with new bellows and a clean lens. However the shutter was still very erratic and the rangefinder-viewer was still internally filthy. I emailed him with my dissatisfaction and was told I was "sadly mistaken" in my observations. I sent the camera back at my expense for the proper paid service noting (giving him the edge) that maybe my "sadly mistaken" observations were overlooked. The camera came back to me untouched with an erratic shutter and a filthy rangefinder-viewer. I mean this guy didn't even take the top cover off to clean the internal viewfinder glass. Keep in mind I'm a sharpie from NNJ and few things get over on me. Anyway, I ate the crow and brought the camera to Essex Camera Repair for a CLA. Those Korean dudes did an outstanding job.

So that's that on that.

chippy
03-06-2008, 06:22
I wrote a reply a few days ago and as I was about to press post/send the power went out!! Thereby losing everything I wrote. I have been busy with work and family and didn’t have the chace to write it again…..this is the abridged version. The first was simular ;I was a bit hot under the collar about Jurgen and a great deal of the post was to falis photo and his willingness to share and also asked him a few questions. which I don’t think I have done justice to in this second attempt. To make this even more weird there is a twist at the end!!!!!


That doesn't necessarily follow. I have 100% positive feedback and I've left maybe half a dozen negative and neutral feedbacks under this name and maybe 20 under another. I make a practice of leaving negative feedback if I feel that the seller has deliberately tried to deceive me. If I think it was just stupidity, but the seller won't rectify the situation, then I leave neutral feedback. Otherwise, I leave positive feedback. I pay the same day I win, I try to work out my problems with the seller, if I have any, and only if this doesn't work do I resort to negative or neutral feedback. .


I think what you say is spot on (as we say) or a good balanced market place approach as it might be suggested in our globalisation rhetoric nowadays. Either way it is a good approach/practice ( I in most cases I pay immediately as well—but I am in such a different time zone (literately) sometimes it has to wait 12 hours or so-until I am back from work or wake up in the morning) and now that I have a reasonable score I am less worried about a negative response (not that I have done it yet!)..so I guess fear of getting a red mark in retaliation is my only defence.

Someone who is honest, who isn't impressed, and who would take being called a liar (twice) very seriously indeed? .

I had to read what you wrote a couple times here! I wasn’t sure if you were suggesting I was dishonest (stupid me!). I do my best to live my life with honesty, integrity and good character. I think when all else is removed that is what we have left.

I must admit though I was somewhat surprised, shocked and disappointed on the first discovery of pinholes and not impressed with the response. But as I said he eventually accepted the mistake as his own, and I accepted he was human. But true, upon receiving the second with a huge hole that was guaranteed checked first with 300 watts!!!! I was beside myself with “what in the !@#$%^&*&* is going on here. This can not be happening! …With the response I got saying that is was impossible and more+ I have t admit I was less than happy (frankly I was beside myself more than I can describe here; I don’t lie and it was very offensive to me personally. However I felt that if it was a genuine mistake on his behalf then of course he would state such things, after all if I expect to be taken at my word then why can I not do the same for others). To rub salt into the wound I had not mentioned to him where the hole was, and he, in one of his responses mentioned exactly were it in fact was! Whilst it sounds incriminating I thought that perhaps someone with his experience would likely guess the location.

The worst thing from my side of the fence with this particular camera and transaction is I have a patched up bellows camera ( I wanted fine light tight bellows which I thought I paid for) when at least at the beginning were said to be perfect, and then later were going to be replaced (which was acceptable) but later said would only be patched!(not really acceptable) I did not require him or anyone else to patch them! Of course I can do that myself.

The thing is, as I mentioned to him I was concerned he would make a loss out this camera transaction and felt that was possibly a cause for his suggestion at patching instead of replacing the bellows,( however he said that he does this as hobby not a business, so not to be concerned that it would be made right, unfortunately in this instance it was not). I may not have made it clear to him (but I tried) but I would of paid a reasonable negotiated price for any work the camera required, my assumption being that he honestly did not know of the problems and how could he sleep at night if he was loosing money instead of making a few bob.

So now because I am determined to put new bellows on this camera it is costing me hundreds upon hundreds of dollars+. I have bought 2 poor condition welturs (sold for way more than they were worth) with the intention of pulling them apart to see how to place new bellows in them. Then I will send away to Uk bellows or someone to get what I need. This camera cost me something like $400 and will end up costing probably well more than a $1000 with postage and all (probably lots more). Just to put this right!

A bit long winded there I apologise but just trying to give an informed account.

Seriously, I think Jurgen makes good bellows, but, judging by what I have read about him here and elsewhere, I believe that is his only real camera-related talent. I would rate our own Rick Oleson WAY higher for pretty much anything else (and, for all I know, Rick may fold a mean bellows himself). Hell, I'd even rate myself higher for doing the other stuff. I'm a whole lot slower than Rick, or even Jurgen, but I'm not slipshod and I've heard enough to convince me that your so-called god is. .

I can say that I do not believe Jurgen ‘makes’ his own bellows. Whether he has done in the past I can not say but from what he told me he buys them in. I purchased several off him in my initial transaction ( for other cameras such as isolettes) and he conveyed as much and indicated he gave them to me at his cost from his supplier. My god (not him) (actually I’m not religious at all, its just a phrase, unless you know Aussie rules football and then there is actuary a god!) can anyone actually imagine that this guy really has the time to make bellows (can you imagine the time involved to, cla shutters and test tham, overhaul cameras in large amounts, culminate lens, and restore every part of them. I guess I may be mistaken but I cant imagine that one person can do all this and have time to run a web site and ebay and sweep the floor and go to the post office every other day. I don’t think I could if was doing nothing else! I also know he gets others to CLA shutters for whatever reason (I have a receipt from one). Which I can not state for a fact but was my inner feeling why some of the problems may have occurred. He simply didn’t see them! Far fetched maybe! But I have always had trouble believing that the obvious problems went unnoticed by an experienced person, that sort of problem to me as a long term employer and trainer suggests he is covering for people doing the work. Again I must say its only an intuition and quite possibly wrong but I would not be surprised in the slightest!

I am more than glad to hear also that rick and also your self are competent. At this point I don’t know either of you personally and don’t know if rick takes work on or just does his own cameras. But no matter in what capacity you guys help I think is first rate.


Instead of undoing four screws, you just peel back the leather from the front and drill out four rivets, that's all. There is a company on ebay that sells aluminum rivets for "Hot Wheels" toy cars at about $1.50 for 50 of them. When you get the bellows put in, you use a hammer and dolly to set the new rivets, file them off smooth and glue the leatherette back down over them. It's a little more trouble than an Agfa's screws, but not overwhelming. You can run into real problems with some of the early Billy Records though. With those, you have the rivets AND you have to remove the tripod socket too, to get that back piece out (the difficult part is that it is really hard to get a grip on that socket, because they beveled the damned thing -- it is kind of like the greased pig of camera repair). .


I must say this was bliss to my ears! Not just someone actually sharing something but in depth knowledge and tips. I can’t thank you enough! Truly! I hope one day I can repay the favour...... I did have look the other day but did not find exactly what the rivets you were referring to were, but found dinky toys and such. However I am not completely familiar with imperial measurements on this small scale (we are metric here) so are not sure what size rivets are compatible with cameras of the nature we are discussing?

From my point of view I am now one step closer to fixing a few old cameras that I have and in no way can afford to send them out to fixed

eBay is a bit like the wild west and you are forced to take people more or less on trust. I have one or two experiences where products have turned up not exactly as described - usually by omission of course and my imagination has wrongly filled in the blanks. But these have all been inexpensive items and in each case I have put it down to experience. I am more careful when buying anything expensive to (a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed. .


So here comes the twist…..not unlike mary mentioned, I too had contacted Jurgen some time back with a question. As a few folk here may know by now I collect the welta camera’s,,,some are more favourite than others. And I have almost every rollflim camera they ever made. But still missing the black weltur 6x4.5! I was at a loss where I could get one from and sent jurgen an email a while back asking if he had one (frankly I was not holding my breath, but I love these things so much, not much is out of the question). Didn’t get a reply. And I wasn’t surprised, as people had mentioned emails seem to go unanswered and I have experienced it also. However to my surprise on this particular day (some time after my inquirery) I did get a response. He had the camera I was after and a very fine example ta boot! Now I am not as we say here trying to ‘suck up’ but simply being straight forward and honest. If I am going to ‘bag’ a guy or state what problems I have encountered then I would be remiss not to say what positives have occurred as well. At any rate I have purchased the camera all is said to correct and right , bellows yarda yarda,,,, we shall see. But further to that I asked a question (ironically one I asked falisphoto in my first draft before the power went out to do with if he knew about a problem , with the film chamber being jammed-not important now) after jurgen went to the time, trouble and effort (and you have to keep in mind here they were not related to cameras he sold me (well maybe the first weltur-it had the same problem). He sent me an email with detail pictures and instruction on how to fix the problem! And it worked! I performed the procedure in minutes. Simple if you know what to do yes, but he did go to the trouble and time to send me email with instruction and pictures. That really was bloody marvellous !

So what do I make of it…well I will reserve judgment this one more time , the thing is I really want this camera I have not been able to get so far. Y find irt hard to believe anyine can be as crooked as it sometimes seems, surely not! If I was to guess I just think he has too much work load and not the time to make every camera perfect………sitting at the emd of my bed with palms pressed I say please GOD let me get a good one

chippy
03-06-2008, 06:24
I wrote a reply a few days ago and as I was about to press post/send the power went out!! Thereby losing everything I wrote. I have been busy with work and family and didn’t have the chace to write it again…..this is the abridged version. The first was simular ;I was a bit hot under the collar about Jurgen and a great deal of the post was to falis photo and his willingness to share and also asked him a few questions. which I don’t think I have done justice to in this second attempt. To make this even more weird there is a twist at the end!!!!!


That doesn't necessarily follow. I have 100% positive feedback and I've left maybe half a dozen negative and neutral feedbacks under this name and maybe 20 under another. I make a practice of leaving negative feedback if I feel that the seller has deliberately tried to deceive me. If I think it was just stupidity, but the seller won't rectify the situation, then I leave neutral feedback. Otherwise, I leave positive feedback. I pay the same day I win, I try to work out my problems with the seller, if I have any, and only if this doesn't work do I resort to negative or neutral feedback. .


I think what you say is spot on (as we say) or a good balanced market place approach as it might be suggested in our globalisation rhetoric nowadays. Either way it is a good approach/practice ( I in most cases I pay immediately as well—but I am in such a different time zone (literately) sometimes it has to wait 12 hours or so-until I am back from work or wake up in the morning) and now that I have a reasonable score I am less worried about a negative response (not that I have done it yet!)..so I guess fear of getting a red mark in retaliation is my only defence.

I]Someone who is honest, who isn't impressed, and who would take being called a liar (twice) very seriously indeed? .

I had to read what you wrote a couple times here! I wasn’t sure if you were suggesting I was dishonest (stupid me!). I do my best to live my life with honesty, integrity and good character. I think when all else is removed that is what we have left.

I must admit though I was somewhat surprised, shocked and disappointed on the first discovery of pinholes and not impressed with the response. But as I said he eventually accepted the mistake as his own, and I accepted he was human. But true, upon receiving the second with a huge hole that was guaranteed checked first with 300 watts!!!! I was beside myself with “what in the !@#$%^&*&* is going on here. This can not be happening! …With the response I got saying that is was impossible and more+ I have t admit I was less than happy (frankly I was beside myself more than I can describe here; I don’t lie and it was very offensive to me personally. However I felt that if it was a genuine mistake on his behalf then of course he would state such things, after all if I expect to be taken at my word then why can I not do the same for others). To rub salt into the wound I had not mentioned to him where the hole was, and he, in one of his responses mentioned exactly were it in fact was! Whilst it sounds incriminating I thought that perhaps someone with his experience would likely guess the location.

The worst thing from my side of the fence with this particular camera and transaction is I have a patched up bellows camera ( I wanted fine light tight bellows which I thought I paid for) when at least at the beginning were said to be perfect, and then later were going to be replaced (which was acceptable) but later said would only be patched!(not really acceptable) I did not require him or anyone else to patch them! Of course I can do that myself.

The thing is, as I mentioned to him I was concerned he would make a loss out this camera transaction and felt that was possibly a cause for his suggestion at patching instead of replacing the bellows,( however he said that he does this as hobby not a business, so not to be concerned that it would be made right, unfortunately in this instance it was not). I may not have made it clear to him (but I tried) but I would of paid a reasonable negotiated price for any work the camera required, my assumption being that he honestly did not know of the problems and how could he sleep at night if he was loosing money instead of making a few bob.

So now because I am determined to put new bellows on this camera it is costing me hundreds upon hundreds of dollars+. I have bought 2 poor condition welturs (sold for way more than they were worth) with the intention of pulling them apart to see how to place new bellows in them. Then I will send away to Uk bellows or someone to get what I need. This camera cost me something like $400 and will end up costing probably well more than a $1000 with postage and all (probably lots more). Just to put this right!

A bit long winded there I apologise but just trying to give an informed account.

Seriously, I think Jurgen makes good bellows, but, judging by what I have read about him here and elsewhere, I believe that is his only real camera-related talent. I would rate our own Rick Oleson WAY higher for pretty much anything else (and, for all I know, Rick may fold a mean bellows himself). Hell, I'd even rate myself higher for doing the other stuff. I'm a whole lot slower than Rick, or even Jurgen, but I'm not slipshod and I've heard enough to convince me that your so-called god is. .

I can say that I do not believe Jurgen ‘makes’ his own bellows. Whether he has done in the past I can not say but from what he told me he buys them in. I purchased several off him in my initial transaction ( for other cameras such as isolettes) and he conveyed as much and indicated he gave them to me at his cost from his supplier. My god (not him) (actually I’m not religious at all, its just a phrase, unless you know Aussie rules football and then there is actuary a god!) can anyone actually imagine that this guy really has the time to make bellows (can you imagine the time involved to, cla shutters and test tham, overhaul cameras in large amounts, culminate lens, and restore every part of them. I guess I may be mistaken but I cant imagine that one person can do all this and have time to run a web site and ebay and sweep the floor and go to the post office every other day. I don’t think I could if was doing nothing else! I also know he gets others to CLA shutters for whatever reason (I have a receipt from one). Which I can not state for a fact but was my inner feeling why some of the problems may have occurred. He simply didn’t see them! Far fetched maybe! But I have always had trouble believing that the obvious problems went unnoticed by an experienced person, that sort of problem to me as a long term employer and trainer suggests he is covering for people doing the work. Again I must say its only an intuition and quite possibly wrong but I would not be surprised in the slightest!

I am more than glad to hear also that rick and also your self are competent. At this point I don’t know either of you personally and don’t know if rick takes work on or just does his own cameras. But no matter in what capacity you guys help I think is first rate.


Instead of undoing four screws, you just peel back the leather from the front and drill out four rivets, that's all. There is a company on ebay that sells aluminum rivets for "Hot Wheels" toy cars at about $1.50 for 50 of them. When you get the bellows put in, you use a hammer and dolly to set the new rivets, file them off smooth and glue the leatherette back down over them. It's a little more trouble than an Agfa's screws, but not overwhelming. You can run into real problems with some of the early Billy Records though. With those, you have the rivets AND you have to remove the tripod socket too, to get that back piece out (the difficult part is that it is really hard to get a grip on that socket, because they beveled the damned thing -- it is kind of like the greased pig of camera repair). .


I must say this was bliss to my ears! Not just someone actually sharing something but in depth knowledge and tips. I can’t thank you enough! Truly! I hope one day I can repay the favour...... I did have look the other day but did not find exactly what the rivets you were referring to were, but found dinky toys and such. However I am not completely familiar with imperial measurements on this small scale (we are metric here) so are not sure what size rivets are compatible with cameras of the nature we are discussing?

From my point of view I am now one step closer to fixing a few old cameras that I have and in no way can afford to send them out to fixed

eBay is a bit like the wild west and you are forced to take people more or less on trust. I have one or two experiences where products have turned up not exactly as described - usually by omission of course and my imagination has wrongly filled in the blanks. But these have all been inexpensive items and in each case I have put it down to experience. I am more careful when buying anything expensive to (a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed. .


So here comes the twist…..not unlike mary mentioned, I too had contacted Jurgen some time back with a question. As a few folk here may know by now I collect the welta camera’s,,,some are more favourite than others. And I have almost every rollflim camera they ever made. But still missing the black weltur 6x4.5! I was at a loss where I could get one from and sent jurgen an email a while back asking if he had one (frankly I was not holding my breath, but I love these things so much, not much is out of the question). Didn’t get a reply. And I wasn’t surprised, as people had mentioned emails seem to go unanswered and I have experienced it also. However to my surprise on this particular day (some time after my inquirery) I did get a response. He had the camera I was after and a very fine example ta boot! Now I am not as we say here trying to ‘suck up’ but simply being straight forward and honest. If I am going to ‘bag’ a guy or state what problems I have encountered then I would be remiss not to say what positives have occurred as well. At any rate I have purchased the camera all is said to correct and right , bellows yarda yarda,,,, we shall see. But further to that I asked a question (ironically one I asked falisphoto in my first draft before the power went out to do with if he knew about a problem , with the film chamber being jammed-not important now) after jurgen went to the time, trouble and effort (and you have to keep in mind here they were not related to cameras he sold me (well maybe the first weltur-it had the same problem). He sent me an email with detail pictures and instruction on how to fix the problem! And it worked! I performed the procedure in minutes. Simple if you know what to do yes, but he did go to the trouble and time to send me email with instruction and pictures. That really was bloody marvellous !

So what do I make of it…well I will reserve judgment this one more time , the thing is I really want this camera I have not been able to get so far. Y find irt hard to believe anyine can be as crooked as it sometimes seems, surely not! If I was to guess I just think he has too much work load and not the time to make every camera perfect………sitting at the emd of my bed with palms pressed I say please GOD let me get a good one

chippy
03-06-2008, 07:00
oops sorry folks i didn know it came through twice, must be paranoid about blackouts!!!

chippy
03-06-2008, 07:44
eBay is a bit like the wild west and you are forced to take people more or less on trust. I have one or two experiences where products have turned up not exactly as described - usually by omission of course and my imagination has wrongly filled in the blanks. But these have all been inexpensive items and in each case I have put it down to experience. I am more careful when buying anything expensive to (a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed.

sorry Peter i placed this quote in my other post and somehow my comments didn't get through ...maybe it gets late earlyier here than everywhers else, or maybe its just the weather, each day is in the high 30's lately, the rest of the country is getting some rain and we are stil without (sorry folks --adelaide talk).

i just wanted to concure with your sensible outlook on ebay, although the missing facts by omisission is a real pain in the butt. by the large tho i do agree but have had experiance were it is contary..

one large international shop (they have cameras listed for 10s of thousands),,,and ebay seller has barely answered a single email i have sent, the only word from them I have had has been " its sent" seriously thats all they wrote!!!.still waiting for the camera (they advertise in McKeowns as well!)..i asked if and when it was sent and if they could provide a traking number. on other occassions i have asked for a picture of the camera, they just say 'no'.....go figure!!!

Spyderman
03-06-2008, 07:47
Please be so kind and don't change color of the font.

chippy
03-06-2008, 08:03
Please be so kind and don't change color of the font.

sorry, it was unintentional, just trying to copy and paste from M/word

btw you seem to have multicolour fonts going on!! quite the rainbow actually

Spyderman
03-06-2008, 08:36
yes :) but the green and gray is difficult to read on white background (I use the white color scheme at work).

You can remove the the color by clicking "edit" below the post and removing the [ COLOR="SomeColor" ] and [ / COLOR ].

scorpius73
03-06-2008, 18:50
i bought a Zeiss super ikonta IV from ebay. i found that mr. kreckel did cla's on them. i sent mine to him. the problem i had was that the shutter didnt always fire when i tripped the shutter. i got it back. but, the rangefinder was off by about 8 ft or more. when i emailed him. he said that it was nothing he did. i had to play around with the camera myself and figured out how to reallign the rangefinder. i knew it was something he did. because the first 2 rolls i shot with it were very sharp before i sent it to him. once i got it back. the images were out of focus. i thought i needed new glasses.:eek: he also took the lens off for cleaning. he never repainted the drill holes that he did. i had to ask if he put in another lens in its place before i figured that the rangefinder was no longer accurate. ill never deal with him again. he acted like i was a complete idiot. in some cases i am. :rolleyes: but, i do know whats out of focus and what isnt.
he asked where i got the camera. i said ebay. he said if i bought from him i wouldnt be having problems. he fixed one problem and created another one. i just had to share my experience with him. not good.

eli griggs
03-06-2008, 19:54
scottyb70, if you paid by-way-of PayPal, let them sort it out. If you paid by-way-of Postal Money Order, file a complaint of fraud and let them fix this particular wagon. Either way, don't accept anything you didn't order, especially at the high price of your winning bid. This guy owes you what you bid on and should be the one worrying about how to make things right, not you.

Keep us informed as to how this is resolved, ok?

Good luck...

jmc56
03-06-2008, 21:58
If someone posted pictures of one camera and sold another without any warning of it, I don't think there's a contract. You bought and paid for one thing and you got another. In fact, depending on how it was sold, in some states that would rise to fraud.

If someone wants to substitute for what he's advertised, he needs your consent or he should simply refund the money. Giving sellers a negative rating just brings the wrath down on you, especially if it's a big seller. I just try not to get involved in buys that I can't just walk away from -- unless it's a seller I trust from my own experience. It definitely hurts some of the good people.

EBay goes a long way to make their big sellers happy and buyers are usually on the short end. Complain to Ebay or paypal, but if your're really unhappy, look for a way to whack them in their own backyard.

FWIW. I'm not a purist about this because I mostly like to collect old cameras to shoot at least a few pictures with -- and I've got some fine folders. I wish I could get them all into good working shape, but it takes time and it's expensive.

I've no objections to cosmetic repairs on a working camera, but looking at one that's been all tarted up doesn't enhance the value to me, quite the contrary. Maybe the serial numbers don't matter to some peope, but frequently they do.

it's rare that I see a bargain in cameras on Ebay.

scottyb70
03-08-2008, 18:00
Wow, I didn't know this thread would come to this. I left a postive feedback because he sent me the pictures (I requested) of the camera listed on ebay and I compared them. He probably did it due to this thread?

In my opinion, I feel he may have sent me the better one of the two. I have taken a couple of pictures with the camera but I have not had the film developed yet.

Let me explain myself further.

I am a very fair person. When I want something and I feel it is a fair price, I will pay for it. I too am a business person and know the costs of doing business. I feel if a person does a good job at what they do I have no problem paying for it. This is the feeling I got from reading about Jurgen.

Jurgen explained to me that the one he sent me was better, I by only looking at the pictures can assume the one he sent me was better than the one he had listed on Ebay, but why didn't he tell me this in the first place. This is why I was very skeptical and concerned about being cheated out of a nice camera. After talking with Jurgen I felt he may have sent me the better camera.

I left him a Positive feedback hopefully being that he was upfront with me and I felt a little guilt. Again, if he was upfront with me in the first place this would have never happened. I hope he doesn't do this to other people in the future and maybe this thread may help him out. I understand no one can be perfect, I too am not perfect. I just don't like to be lied to and then make me look like it is my fault.

I am going to purchase folders in the future, I am going to read books to try to clean them myself since no one can be trusted. Hopefully you guys can help me on the forum and point me in the right direction. I am looking into collecting the Franka cameras.

Thanks

scottyb70
03-08-2008, 18:18
Oh by the way the distance guage on top isn't accurate.

NickTrop
03-08-2008, 18:42
My one and only dealing with Jurgen was more than fair, for what it's worth. He made a repair on my Iskra in exchange for another "somewhat" rare folder (Agfa with Solinar) that needed bellows. I paid the freight both ways. After a couple months with no camera I got antsy and shot him some polite "where's my stinkin' camera?" emails. He responded promptly and professionally to cool it, it will be on its way soon. The camera came, eventually, and the necessary repair was made.

I understand you point on this one, you paid top dollar for this camera and expected the camera in the ad. However, sometimes cameras that are in better cosmetic condition and not the ones that are in better functional condition.

Certo's a business man. He might have had some reservations about the listed camera - didn't want to disappoint a customer, didn't want to do rework or have the camera returned, or realized you paid a little above the "going rate" and sent out a better camera - legitimately. Sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I didn't read all the posts here, but it seems folks have better luck purchasing offerings he puts up for sale directly as opposed to repair. I would seem to me that if someone is sent a camera to repair they will try their best to fix them, as they're obligated to do so, but with cameras this old, it can be dicey. ... As opposed to cameras that are sold directly - if there's any reservation, it becomes a "parts" camera. The last thing someone like Certo6 would want is to do rework on these things.

And, as always, dissatisfied customers (nothing against them, human nature, and I'm the same way) are more vocal than the delighted ones, so the overall "composite" gets to be lopsided.

Hopefully it's a case of "alls well that ends well" and you gotchyerself a fine sample of a wonderful folder, the Certo6.

FallisPhoto
03-09-2008, 08:46
I had to read what you wrote a couple times here! I wasn’t sure if you were suggesting I was dishonest (stupid me!).

I didn't mean to imply that! Mainly I was just saying that I don't think that Jurgen is, and I think his status as a "god" is entirely self-conferred. I know of half a dozen tinkerers, some of whom are doing this as a sideline business, they are all better than he is at it and they don't charge as much. Of course most of them are using "new old stock" Kodak bellows or Kodak 66 bellows at $5 or $15 each instead of those natty neon-cranberry and neon-blue bellows he uses that cost way more. I used to have a source in Germany for new old stock 6x6 Zeiss bellows myself ($3 each), but unfortunately, he died recently and I just used the last of them.

I do my best to live my life with honesty, integrity and good character. I think when all else is removed that is what we have left.

It is the only thing you can take with you.

I must admit though I was somewhat surprised, shocked and disappointed on the first discovery of pinholes and not impressed with the response.

I should say so! I figure he must be a Northerner, and I figured NYC. Where I live, if a guy called you a liar he could pretty much expect you to walk out of his store and tell everyone you ever heard of not to go there. It surprises me he is able to stay in business with his reputation. Apparently a lot of the people who he has ripped off, insulted, and so on are keeping relatively quiet about it. I think he's doing a quick cosmetic facelift to most of the folders he sells and not really doing much to them internally.

But as I said he eventually accepted the mistake as his own, and I accepted he was human. But true, upon receiving the second with a huge hole that was guaranteed checked first with 300 watts!!!! I was beside myself with “what in the !@#$%^&*&* is going on here. This can not be happening! …With the response I got saying that is was impossible and more+ I have t admit I was less than happy (frankly I was beside myself more than I can describe here; I don’t lie and it was very offensive to me personally. However I felt that if it was a genuine mistake on his behalf then of course he would state such things, after all if I expect to be taken at my word then why can I not do the same for others). To rub salt into the wound I had not mentioned to him where the hole was, and he, in one of his responses mentioned exactly were it in fact was! Whilst it sounds incriminating I thought that perhaps someone with his experience would likely guess the location.

With what I have read here and on many other sites, I'd have to say that I believe it's his honesty that is very much open to question. Oh, there are a few people who are pretty well-known who have ordered cameras from him and he does a very careful job on them, but for ordinary working stiffs I think he just gives the things a lick and a promise and sends them off.


The worst thing from my side of the fence with this particular camera and transaction is I have a patched up bellows camera ( I wanted fine light tight bellows which I thought I paid for) when at least at the beginning were said to be perfect, and then later were going to be replaced (which was acceptable) but later said would only be patched!(not really acceptable) I did not require him or anyone else to patch them! Of course I can do that myself. The thing is, as I mentioned to him I was concerned he would make a loss out this camera transaction and felt that was possibly a cause for his suggestion at patching instead of replacing the bellows,( however he said that he does this as hobby not a business, so not to be concerned that it would be made right, unfortunately in this instance it was not). I may not have made it clear to him (but I tried) but I would of paid a reasonable negotiated price for any work the camera required, my assumption being that he honestly did not know of the problems and how could he sleep at night if he was loosing money instead of making a few bob.

Sorry, but it sounds to me like you just flat-out got ripped off. A patched bellows is NEVER a permanent fix, it is always temporary. The camera obviously needed new bellows and that is what you should have gotten.

So now because I am determined to put new bellows on this camera it is costing me hundreds upon hundreds of dollars+. I have bought 2 poor condition welturs (sold for way more than they were worth) with the intention of pulling them apart to see how to place new bellows in them. Then I will send away to Uk bellows or someone to get what I need. This camera cost me something like $400 and will end up costing probably well more than a $1000 with postage and all (probably lots more). Just to put this right!

A bit long winded there I apologise but just trying to give an informed account.


WHOA!!!! Hold it right there! There are "new old stock" Kodak bellows that will fit just about any 6x9 folding camera and they are still commonly available and cheap. I have six of them right now that I paid $10 for last month. Each of them is in like-new condition. Measure your camera's bellows, match them to this guy's sizes, and he'll sell you two or three Kodak replacement bellows that have never been used for $10. http://stores.ebay.com/frendakfurnari_Kodak-Replacement-Bellows_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQsclZ0QQtZkm (http://stores.ebay.com/frendakfurnari_Kodak-Replacement-Bellows_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQsclZ0QQtZkm) If you measure right, they will work fine in pretty much any 6x9 you've got. Mine (purchased from him) have no wear on them at all and are just as good as new bellows.

For a 6x6 camera in need of new bellows, buy a Kodak 66. They were sold in Europe in the 60s. They are dirt cheap junk, but the 66 has a very nice and very well made bellows and it is easily harvestable, being only held in by four screws. It is pretty much the only part of the camera that is any good. The bellows from those work very nicely in Isolettes and Speedexes.


I can say that I do not believe Jurgen ‘makes’ his own bellows. Whether he has done in the past I can not say but from what he told me he buys them in. I purchased several off him in my initial transaction ( for other cameras such as isolettes) and he conveyed as much and indicated he gave them to me at his cost from his supplier.



I'm just going by what I read on the Classic Camera Repair Forum, where they all say he makes his own. They also say he overcharges and about half of the people who write about him are not happy with his work.


(can you imagine the time involved to, cla shutters and test tham, overhaul cameras in large amounts, culminate lens, and restore every part of them. I guess I may be mistaken but I cant imagine that one person can do all this and have time to run a web site and ebay and sweep the floor and go to the post office every other day. I don’t think I could if was doing nothing else!
I also know he gets others to CLA shutters for whatever reason (I have a receipt from one). Which I can not state for a fact but was my inner feeling why some of the problems may have occurred. He simply didn’t see them! Far fetched maybe! But I have always had trouble believing that the obvious problems went unnoticed by an experienced person, that sort of problem to me as a long term employer and trainer suggests he is covering for people doing the work. Again I must say its only an intuition and quite possibly wrong but I would not be surprised in the slightestI am more than glad to hear also that rick and also your self are competent. At this point I don’t know either of you personally and don’t know if rick takes work on or just does his own cameras. But no matter in what capacity you guys help I think is first rate.

If you go to his website, and look in the gallery, you will see where he describes his shutter cleaning method. He says he does it himself. http://www.certo6.com/gallery/shutter.html (http://www.certo6.com/gallery/shutter.html)

I must say this was bliss to my ears! Not just someone actually sharing something but in depth knowledge and tips. I can’t thank you enough! Truly! I hope one day I can repay the favour...... I did have look the other day but did not find exactly what the rivets you were referring to were, but found dinky toys and such. However I am not completely familiar with imperial measurements on this small scale (we are metric here) so are not sure what size rivets are compatible with cameras of the nature we are discussing

From my point of view I am now one step closer to fixing a few old cameras that I have and in no way can afford to send them out to fixed.

I use 1/8 inch rivets in an appropriate length (length depends on the camera). Aluminum works best, I think, since it won't corrode or cause "zeiss bumps." Brass will work too, but you need to put some nail polish or paint over it to avoid the aforementioned bumps developing over the years.

So here comes the twist…..not unlike mary mentioned, I too had contacted Jurgen some time back with a question. As a few folk here may know by now I collect the welta camera’s,,,some are more favourite than others. And I have almost every rollflim camera they ever made. But still missing the black weltur 6x4.5! I was at a loss where I could get one from and sent jurgen an email a while back asking if he had one (frankly I was not holding my breath, but I love these things so much, not much is out of the question). Didn’t get a reply. And I wasn’t surprised, as people had mentioned emails seem to go unanswered and I have experienced it also. However to my surprise on this particular day (some time after my inquirery) I did get a response. He had the camera I was after and a very fine example ta boot! Now I am not as we say here trying to ‘suck up’ but simply being straight forward and honest. If I am going to ‘bag’ a guy or state what problems I have encountered then I would be remiss not to say what positives have occurred as well. At any rate I have purchased the camera all is said to correct and right , bellows yarda yarda,,,, we shall see. But further to that I asked a question (ironically one I asked falisphoto in my first draft before the power went out to do with if he knew about a problem , with the film chamber being jammed-not important now) after jurgen went to the time, trouble and effort (and you have to keep in mind here they were not related to cameras he sold me (well maybe the first weltur-it had the same problem). He sent me an email with detail pictures and instruction on how to fix the problem! And it worked! I performed the procedure in minutes. Simple if you know what to do yes, but he did go to the trouble and time to send me email with instruction and pictures. That really was bloody marvellous!
So what do I make of it…well I will reserve judgment this one more time , the thing is I really want this camera I have not been able to get so far. Y find irt hard to believe anyine can be as crooked as it sometimes seems, surely not! If I was to guess I just think he has too much work load and not the time to make every camera perfect………sitting at the emd of my bed with palms pressed I say please GOD let me get a good one

Good luck.

Way
03-09-2008, 09:47
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WHOA!!!! Hold it right there! There are "new old stock" Kodak bellows that will fit just about any 6x9 folding camera and they are still commonly available and cheap. I have six of them right now that I paid $10 for last month. Each of them is in like-new condition. Measure your camera's bellows, match them to this guy's sizes, and he'll sell you two or three Kodak replacement bellows that have never been used for $10. http://stores.ebay.com/frendakfurnari_Kodak-Replacement-Bellows_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQsclZ0QQtZkm (http://stores.ebay.com/frendakfurnari_Kodak-Replacement-Bellows_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQsclZ0QQtZkm) If you measure right, they will work fine in pretty much any 6x9 you've got. Mine (purchased from him) have no wear on them at all and are just as good as new bellows.

For a 6x6 camera in need of new bellows, buy a Kodak 66. They were sold in Europe in the 60s. They are dirt cheap junk, but the 66 has a very nice and very well made bellows and it is easily harvestable, being only held in by four screws. It is pretty much the only part of the camera that is any good. The bellows from those work very nicely in Isolettes and Speedexes.



Thanks for the bellows info! Gonna measure my Bessa RF and see which one to get. Unless you already know the size!;)

FallisPhoto
03-09-2008, 16:06
Thanks for the bellows info! Gonna measure my Bessa RF and see which one to get. Unless you already know the size!;)

I don't recall offhand. I'd have to measure again. Also, there are several types of Bessa and I'm not sure they are the same (that first model looks like a cukoo ought to pop out of it at any minute).