Help! choosing LTM or K or war- not a fake

[chippy]

Ok it looks like I am about to become one of those Leica nuts!

I have tried to stay away but keep getting drawn back to them. The mechanics, history- look of them and so on--particularly at the moment the LTM's

A little about me I guess; I am happy using all formats from LF to 35mm at least at various times in the past. I used to use SLR modern canon's (at least they were modern at the time. most of that stuff I sold off--still got a couple of fav including my Olympus OM's that I cant part with) and Hasselblad daily and really have to say I found the larger negatives to produce better quality images and only ended up using my 35mm for leisure--to the point were eventually I didn’t use it much at all. preferring the better tonal range ect from bigger negs (maybe it was also the effect the lenses on blad had!).

the years go by and I have become a bit of a 120 folder fanatic (big neg to carry in your pocket so to speak), Bessa 6x9 S/Ikonta many others (both pre & post war) with the Welta becoming my own little fascination (pre-war fascination) that begun with the Welta Weltur and has progressed to the point were I have almost every Welta folding roll film camera as well as their 35mm folders. The Welta Company made some quality cameras and must have had some sort of respectful relationship with Leica as leitz allowed Welta to use their Elmar lens on some of their cameras. For this discussion most notably the Welta Weltini 3.5 5cm Elmar.......which brings me back full circle to Leica again.

I have been reading everything on Leica I can and constantly refer to Mckeowns for reference and many places on the web. (btw it seems prices asked are often higher than those in McKeowns?)

to start with I want/ed a model/s I can place alongside my Weltini's (1&2 models) 1937-38 & 1939 which would be a Leica III as a direct comparison with speeds 1-500 or perhaps the III a,b,c produced in the similar pre-war years (even tho they have 1000 they are made in the same year if I can get the correct serial #).

then my thoughts progressed -so long as Leica is one of these models it would do as ordinary (read not camera nuts) folks don’t really care and it is my collection and what interests me....so I am considering perhaps a war time Leica (maybe red curtain for something different) but it seems endless the threat of getting a fake!!

LeicaTom in this thread
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47125 (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47125)

mentions that the ‘K’ camera pictured is a fake but I can’t tell for the life of me!

What are the key things to look for?

That picture seems to correspond with McKeowns serial numbers as being just as described and I tend to think that if someone was going to fake it wouldn’t the paint look new and maybe even new covering be used (its covering is split and worn)..Well perhaps not but it is a thought. So how can one tell what’s a fake?

There is an IIIc with Luftwaffe & Wehrmacht advertised from one of the apparently respected Leica seller (not evilbay) and they say it a grey model; just looks black to me! And also mention that that there has been some touch up paint around the engraving, that sounds suspect to me; not that I am considering buying it as the price tag is wwway more than I want to spend -Leica or not

There is this camera that I may consider just because it looks shiny and nice and is apparently (if true) a Leitz company camera (something different hey!. They say No serial #, flash sync. added (but does not activate flash), black painted top & bottom, chrome accessories.
On back of top engraved Leitz-Egentum (Leitz Property). Shutter works perfectly. Early war-time lllc.

Any opinions on this camera? Genuine? Restored I guess? Is that a bad thing? Looks nice tho! And hopefully works!

I am also considering getting a IIIg to use from day to day, the general consensus being it has a bigger brighter view. And I figure that if I do find myself using 35mm much (tho I don’t know because compared 120 it has its drawbacks) and decide to get a later M Leica then the screw lenses can work on the M’s. using an adapter does it still activate the frame lines etc in the later M Leica

So far I have 3 Leica IIIg’s to choose from; one looks mint (as they describe it!) but has a small 2mm ding in the top and slight pitting of chrome in one spot, but does look the nicer of the lot apart from the afore mentioned. The second is said to be mint- but has brassing on the slow speed dial and a probably one or two other spots but they aren’t noticeable in the picture. The third is on evilbay and the pics look ok but who knows what you get from there. any advice on mt complecated delemar? i do use all these cameras by the way(so they arnt just to sit on the shelf), some plain cameras get very little (to none) use but i have my favourites that get used all the time.

[john neal]

That un-numbered body looks very interesting - A IIIf but with a IIIc stepped top-plate. I would suggest you buy it and sell it on to LeicaTom here - it's just what he is looking for - he would likely swap you a very nice (genuine) wartime body!

[Rob-F]

"LeicaTom in this thread
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47125 (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47125)

mentions that the ‘K’ camera pictured is a fake but I can’t tell for the life of me! "

I went throught the same thing myself. Initially I imagined I could spot a fake IIIcK the same way as any other fake: Front finder window flush with the top of the camera; oversize front screws; bright front screws instead of black; too many front screws; hole in the shutter release; bad engraving job; etc.

No. By reading Tom's threads and asking questions, I learned that the conterfeiters start with a real IIIc, not a couonterfeit. Then they rework it so it apears to be a K. And I learned that each individual camera has to be checked out by serial number. Tom said he checks with Jim Lager about the serial number, as Jim has extensive records.

[Rob-F]

I think the camera whose picture you posted, as John noted, is basically a wartime IIIc converted to a IIIf. But the absence of a serial number makes me think it has a replacement top plate, issued without a serial number, meant to be engraved to match the top plate being replaced. Only in this case someone--maybe not Leitz-- omitted the number. And apparently painted the cover black. But if Leitz didn't do it, why would it say "Leitz Eigentum" (Leitz property)? This camera raises more questions than answers!

[BillP]

Aargh!

Could people PLEASE stop writing in white?

If you are using VBP Legacy as your skin, you can't read a word!

Regards,

Bill

[chippy]

"But if Leitz didn't do it, why would it say "Leitz Eigentum" (Leitz property)? "

also if you look closely the word Eigentum is missing the 'I'

sorry i just found this extra picture


(is this in white on your VBP Legacy?---i have not changed any settings-just typed in whatever standard setting the forum uses)

[LeicaTom]

Hmmm well here`s my 2 cents about this camera......

Sadly this WAS :( a very rare top plate, that`s been misstamped and also painted black - these were replacement tops made from restposten (surplus) in about ca. 1957 - this was also the era many "wartime" er IIIC`s in Europe had relatively inexpensive upgrade conversions from IIIC specs to IIIFBD specs
*I`m researching the original costs of these upgrades - if there`s any German or European Leica Photographer who had this done reading this forum, please contact me I want some original prices on conversions*

There was a ebay seller who had sold a top plate very similar to one one on this camera recently and I KNEW that it (or one like it) would pop back up as fake or something soon enough, to the BEST of what I know Leitz NEVER made any "stepped rewind" platform cameras in black paint - NONE

The top plate here in question, quite possibly could be a factory replacement that was produced (post 1955) look at the IIIG engraving/replacement engraving

Many of the modified cameras (mostly all) of them that were upgraded to have flash sync. had tops with this engraving post 1955

The leaving out the i in Eigentum - would NEVER have happened at Leitz, this is a case of someone not knowing what the hell they are doing.....a Chinese engraving job? Or Russian?
Damm shame becasue they screwed up a pretty rare top plate, this was also 100% a parts top plate that was NEVER attached to a camera, at least NEVER at Leitz

This is a BOTCH JOB if I ever saw one, a camera maybe worth $300 just for parts alone, too bad it`s not a REAL IIIC "wartime" to IIIF conversion now that`s something I would be interested in buying because they make GREAT users! (They are in the $300/$500 range according to condition)

There`s a few tell-tale signs here of a camera "made from parts" the shutter button collar is correct for early Leica IIIC, also notice no locking knob on the slow speed dial, rewind lever looks correct, but Leitz NEVER would have missmatched the IIIF style diaptor lever without the knob, also Leitz NEVER made a painted camera with chrome screws to secure the top plate to rangefinder top deck, the shoe base plate is also gone, the rear eyepiece is chrome with black painted over- etc. etc. my list could go on and on.......and on

I suspect this is a Leica IIIC (era 1940/41) that`s been pieced together with that bogusly painted and stamped top plate

That`s my report on this camera

Tom

PS: Black paint looks pretty good on a IIIC/IIIF conversion, I have seen the REALLY RARE factory IIIC "Flat Top" conversions before - there`s only like maybe 25 of them ever made, from factory TEST cameras made in ca. 1949

[Peter A (NYC)]

This camera is for sale on Don Goldberg's "DAG Camera" website, and I think there was one on eBay just a couple weeks ago.

[BillBingham2]

Look at the spacing in the letters on the back. Something looks after market to me. I would have a hard time buying off on the fact that Leica would do anything so sloppy, even one or two up. They were too perfection minded back then.

B2 (;->

[LeicaTom]

http://i16.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/d9/2e/a387_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300198030067&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

Here`s a wartime era (very late 1942 or early 1943) #388xxx series original Grey paint (civilian) IIIC with the original 1950`s Leitz conversion job done to it from the factory -
(ooh BTW that`s the original WW2 Leitz/German Army Grey paint, it just looks black, because it`s the HARDEST camera paint in the world to photograph!!!!!!
It`s nearly impossible to photograph the grey paint tone and get it right to the eye in cheap internet digital photos)

Tom

PS: If anyone out there has one like this I`m interested, either Grey paint normal shutter or Grey paint K shutter (K serial number) and I`ll pay depending on condition up to $1,000

[LeicaTom]

This camera is for sale on Don Goldberg's "DAG Camera" website, and I think there was one on eBay just a couple weeks ago.

I just went there and looked that over, it`s worth maybe $300 for parts alone, that`s all - any serious collector knows that it`s a camera from parts, sorry but at $1,500 that`s crazy - I`m calling this camera out to the unkowing and weary

I would have bought just the TOP PLATE un-engraved and in it`s ORIGINAL chome plated condition for maybe $150 - because that would have made a good conversion piece and something also to add to the book LeoB and I are writing.......

But I can find REAL "wartime" conversions for quarter of that price, I say that this is only worth it for parts and I might be honestly too generous saying $300

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Ohhh BTW Andrew, my advice to you is buy a "normal" Leica IIIC - a good clean postwar one - serial number range #400000 to about #420000, they were the BEST build series of the postwar cameras
(they also don`t suffer from BAD CHROME flaking and pitting problems) that almost 75% of all post 425000 serial number cameras suffer from (contaminated chrome solutions) with most of the 1947/48/49 models

Very good examples of the pre #425000 IIIC`s can still be found with a nice Elmar or Summitar for under $300, they make for great shooters, also the prewar Leica IIIa is also a good suggestion camera as well, with a nice uncoated Summitar, that`s the Leica I started out with as well a 1939 model

Good Luck and Happy Shooting!

Tom

[chippy]

Thanks for the responce, just got back from work and its awsome! thanks Tom for your input. i will no doubt read it all over and over again. but it does raise further questions for me. please forgive my ignorance-but i am a quick study and listen and learn.

if you would induldge me Tom (or anyone) can i ask why you would advise a post war IIIc (not counting the reasons you have mentioned to date concerning build quality and chroming ect compared to other IIIc) when you yourself seem to like the war time models? or have i got it wrong?

obviously i am new to leica but my thinking at the moment is if i was to choose a post war model then i may as well go for a IIIf or better still a IIIg as opposed to a IIIc? dont get me wrong i appreaciate the advice and vaule your input, just honest questions is all.

the IIIa is what got me hooked in the first place--being a relative (quite distant cousin perhaps) if you like, to my weltini w/elmar (1939) so indeed i favour that as at least a start....but not the end lol

respectfully where are you guys finding leicas w/lens for under $300? Please tell me!

here is an eba*y example (see below) starting bidding at $350! it needs plenty of work yet! and hundreds of dollars spent to get it right. the old adage spend a little more to start with and get something good comes to mind.

I prefer if i can afford it and they are available, to have cameras with no less than 'signs of use but not misuse' the better they are the more i like them and prefer them...


Tom when you say you would have bought the top plate un-engraved are you refering to the 'leica property' stamp or something on the top. i notice that it has DBP instead of DRP and the GMPH?

what is it that you say makes this top rare? forgive my ignorance!

what do you mean miss stamped? the letter 'I' missing or serial number or other?

yes the cats out of bag on the seller, i wasnt going to say as it was my impression that folk here favour him and he seemed ok to me and wasnt going to say if it caused a problem...didnt seem the right thing to do

i did receive a reply from the seller that comes across honest enough...he says that it was not uncommon for the mispelling to accure (the letter 'I') and he has seen it many times. and because it was an in house camera and not to be sold it was no big deal to misspell something and missing the serial number is ok since it was not to be sold. I had asked him about the serial number inside and he mentioned that when he recieved the camera months ago he opened it and lubed as it was dry and he saw that the number started with 3 but didnt write it down or take note of it, simply rembering that it was an early war IIIc...anyway in a nutshell that is what was convayed to me

[LeicaTom]

Andrew,

I suggested the early postwar IIIC while they are built well and are not hard to acquire at a good price still (under $300) here in the USA

That top was a unstamped surplus top with the stepped rewind platform - these were/are very uncommon and with that post 1955 engraving very strange - ohh that comment by the owner about it being ok/normal that a
Eigentum/Betriebs camera would have an i missing in an engraving and this being no big deal, hmmmmm well that HAS to be proven to me, I`ll run this by Jim Lager and see what he says, I NEVER have seen a miss-engraved factory camera they always had properly done engravings and ALL of them I have seen have also had serial numbers on the top plate

When you start getting into the "stepped rewind" platform cameras then you also have to compete with crazy collectors, while they just buy the damm thing, because it was made during the war (well all but maybe 5,000) of the "rarer" postwar K shutter and half race bearing cameras - GOOD examples of any of these are now being pushed higher in price due to the collectors lust for them etc.
(you will spend $400+ now for a good one, in some cases overseas even more, they are alot more common to find here in the USA due to the fact that ALL the postwar production went to the US Army and most of the captured WW2 cameras are now also still here

I suppose when the books written and out it will reflect the true story about these cameras and open up alot of facts about them, I personally prefer them while the build quality is far superior to the postwar production of the IIIC - the IIIF was the first "real" Leica after the war that excelled once again in production and quailty standards that were set in the pre-war times - (and even the IIIFBD had some serious issues, BUT I won`t get onto that now either.....)

That "new" stepped rewind platform camera on evilbay is a 1940/41 issue, more then likely a red curtain, while one of the curtains looks really lighter in color, and notice there`s no locking button for the slow speed dial
(this was introduced in very late 1942)
The condition of this camera is so poor that it`s honestly a $150/$200 camera, a "user" that needs full CLA and new vulcanite, which can only be done with very expensive processes, that are limited to maybe one person here and also in England and costing hundreds of dollars to do

Tom

[gjlynx]

Tom,

At what serial No. did they stop using the stepped rewind for the IIIc?

[Luddite Frank]

Regarding the III-f and III-g Leicae:


The III-f 'Black-Dial' cameras were the first model to offer flash sync from the factory; apparently they were also somewhat plagued by inferior plating and inferior shutter curtain material compared to the III-c and the later III-f " Red-Dial" cameras.

I have a III-f BD, s/n 600,xxx (1950-'51), which has lovely chrome, but crackled and leaking curtains. The slow speeds do not run, so it needs a CLA + new curtains, about $250 -$300 to become a good shooter again.

I have a 1934 III, chrome, that has some brassing / flaking chrome. but good curtains, and is a fine "user".


The III-g is the ultimate extent of Leitz's development of the "thread-mount" Barnack camera, complete with "modern" shutter speeds (1/25 - 1/50th - 1/75th, etc), self-timer, brightline-finder for the 50mm & 35mm lenses, with automatic parallax correction. The down-side is that they seem to be hot collectibles, and frequently run over $1,000 USD, for a "nice" camera.

You might find an "ugly" -g user for $400 - $600 ,if you're shopping _ -bay.

I would like to own a III-g myself, but haven't found one I can afford.


Leitz made the first commerically-viable 35mm cameras that would produce a 24 x 36mm negative sharp enough to be enlarged to a decent print. ( An 8x10 print is about 53 times larger than the camera negative).

Sometimes being "first" does not always guarantee being the "best"...
Leitz consistently produced a high-quality product for decades, but in the area of lens-design and coating technology, Zeiss seemed to have the edge, at least during the '30s & '40s... many Leitz lenses from this period suffer from haze, cleaning-marks, and scratches due to Leitz's "soft glass" and "soft coatings".

I don't mean the above statement as a total "slam" against Leitz; I love my Leicas, and have yet to own a Contax; but the dearth of scratched Leitz lenses can be frustrating.

Zeiss, Nikon, Canon, Minolta, and other repsectable makers made " Leica Thread-mount" versions of their lenses during the 1950's & '60s, so there are alternatives to Leitz glass...

Based on my shooting with LTM over the last six months, I would echo Tom's suggestion for post-war III-c for a starter Leica... it will do everything the later cameras can, except take a flash picture (and there are adapters to make that possible, if you really feel compelled).

If money is no object, then a nice III-g is a mighty-fine camera too...

Good Luck!

Luddite Frank

(Workhorse 35mm : 1934 Leica III, 50 mm Summicron)

[LeicaTom]

I have a III-f BD, s/n 600,xxx (1950-'51), which has lovely chrome, but crackled and leaking curtains. The slow speeds do not run, so it needs a CLA + new curtains, about $250 -$300 to become a good shooter again.



Yes, sadly my near mint 1951 IIFBD (the 1950`s sleeper Leica collectable with less than 9,000 made) that was a European Holiday "bringback" camera, sat like 40+ years unused and now has bad dry curtains and the beam splitter/mirror needs replaced, seems that many of the quality control issues at Leitz are because of the poor conditions of material available to the German`s after WW2 - common problems with cameras in the #425xxx+ to $510xxx are bad chrome plating - prone to pitting and peeling
The IIIFBD isssues in 1951/52 suffer from poor curtain materials and also rangefinder defects

Not that the "wartime" and postwar 1945/early 1946 "stepper rewind`s" didn`t have their problems too - the vulcanite on 80% of them are bad due to it not holding up well to temperature changes and also lack of proper chemicals to make the substance more robust

With 1954 and the introduction of the Leica M3 and also better working and export/import conditions the quality of the cameras improved drasticly - I`m not saying that all late Leica IIIC`s and early IIIFBD`s and RD`s are bad cameras, it`s just that the material that was used in making them doesn`t hold out as well as Leica`s in other years

If anyone out there has a 1949/50 Leica IIIC "Sharkskin" that`s mint with super clean chrome and a great shutter, you have a wonderful camera, maybe the best of the early postwar Leica Screwmounts......

Tom

PS: The "stepper rewind" platform Leica IIIC production ended about #397600 or March/April 1946

[chippy]

thanks again guys...
i did come across a mint or near mint (cant remember exactly at this second) IIIc 49xxxxx with sharkskin 1950 it was around 700 eur or a near mint IIIg around 1300 eur both w/summitar

[paragon]

I have have three LTMs which I have never used - all seem to work OK and be in good/resonable condition
What is the best site to research these - I am sure that they are just ordinary, (if you can call any Leica ordinary),models:

Serial numbers are:
549XXX with speeds up to 1000 and self timer and flash sync
259XXX with speeds up to 1000 and self rimer
241XXX with speeds up to 500

All chrome

Thanks in advance for any help

[chippy]

howdy

the 549xxx is a 1951 IIIf
the 259xxx could be a II or a standard or a IIIa....need more numbers
the 241xxx needs more numbers as well to confirm as well, 1937-38 standard, IIIa, IIIb or II

acording to my book anyway--i have little idea whats special or not after reading the afore coments :-) but getting there!