folding TLR 6x9-how or who to replace mirror [Archive]

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chippy

02-20-2008, 16:00

i have recently aquired a Welta superfekta. although it needs primaraly a replacemnt mirror (there are are a couple of other small things) i have not been able to figure out how to get to it,,to replace it! its obviously a rare camera and deserves a little respect, so i am not entirely confortable 'having at it' so to speak...and thought mabye there may be 'qualified people' (they are probably all dead!! no offence to the fantastic dead camera techs or living one i dont know of) to look to??

so now i am considering what options are open to me and was considering sending it Ken Ruth at Bald mountain....i hear he is good but I have no personal experiance. i made an inquirery and got information on packing and sending it but no idea on rates/charges or turn around time or much else..anyone have any idea what path i should take????or experiance with Ken?

or tho unlikely i guess..but anyone know how to get into these?-they would be the same as the folding 6x6 Welta Perfekta

payasam

02-20-2008, 23:42

If you mean the half-reflectance mirror in the rangefinder, Edmunds in the US sell large sheets from which pieces must be cut of whatever is the size needed.

chippy

02-21-2008, 00:14

thanks payasam,
have you a web address on them...it didn't show up on my google.

Is rangfinder mirror 50% reflectance? i didnt know that...i wonder why they dont make it as reflecting as possible! just wondering that once i get a mirror i can cut whether its worth replacing in some of my older rangefinder camera (welturs, weltini, etc.)

but no, i was meaning the large mirror that you would find in a TLR camera. although the superfekta is a TLR its also a folding 120, 6x9 and i didnt know where else to post to get some answers. this camera is sorta one of a kind...and if you think of the view screen as a big rangefinder screen its almost the same as a rangefinder cam.

at any rate i have been playing around with my Perfekta (its 6x6 folding) and i got into it and removed the mirror. i need a micro measure to measure the mirror acurately and find the correct thickness so maybe edmunds have the right thickness i can cut. i just cant see exactly 1.2-1.5mm by the looks.

presumebly the superfekta is the same thinkness mirror but i still cant find a way into its chamber..it more complex than the Perfekta!

Solinar

02-21-2008, 01:57

The Reflecta will need a custom made "front surface mirror". It will have to be custom cut to size.

I saw this link on google. http://www.highreflectivemirrors.com/?gclid=CKTL9pmO1ZECFRGDIgodrxUYbw

There may be others, hopefully there is one in OZ.

fgianni

02-21-2008, 02:09

Erm, I am confused, why do you need a rangefinder to focus a TLR?

chippy

02-21-2008, 02:53

I need to replace a mirror for a superfekta or someone that can be trusted to do it (Ken Ruth?)

its a folding 6x9 TLR ( a unique type camera) , i was tonge in cheek saying it is like a rangefinder---it is in a way!---you adjust focus ring and the image comes into focus...

(the Perfecta is a small version of Superfekta, the Reflekta 1950 and Perfekta 1935 are different cameras altogether)

payasam

02-21-2008, 23:13

www.edmundoptics.com (http://www.edmundoptics.com) is the site you want. In a TLR, you need not a semi-reflective mirror but a fully reflective one. Thickness will be critical and, as the Texan Andrew says, the mirror will in all likelihood have to be front silvered.

#FT2_8*fffg.

03-24-2008, 21:55

Hello, I have one of these as well. I was actually going to have both taking and viewing lenses dis-assembled and coated by Arax, but didn't get around to it by the time the factory quit, despite having this camera since May last year. :bang:

Mine's about in the same condition as your; since it's such a unique camera, and the mirror needs to be re-silvered rather than replaced.

Bald Mountain seems to be a good bet, but I also contacted Henry Scherer to see if he would been willing to attempt such a bold overhaul as well. It seems possible, but this is not going to be cheap. I don't plan on having mine ready to use for about three years, but it can wait.

As for this camera, the pluses are that it focuses like a TLR and moves all the lens elements, rather than just front cell focusing (which drastically reduces resolution). Flipping the camera from horizontal to vertical format is easy, and beautifully designed. Folds up really compact. It only focuses to 1.5m, but since the lens is a tessar type without a lot of elements, if it were coated, a diopter could be added to get focus to 1m.

Or shoot 6x9, and crop down to 6x7, 6x6, 645, etc. It definately has a wonderful 1930's Brassai feel to it, even in the horrible shape mine is in. Which is why I cannot get rid of it.

later.

Luddite Frank

03-25-2008, 10:56

greyhoundman

03-25-2008, 12:01

SurplusShed has a good selection of first surface mirrors. Or you could use one from a Polaroid camera, and cut to size. If the polaroid is too thin. It can be shimmed with paper to the right thickness.

www.surplusshed.com

chippy

03-25-2008, 14:20

Hello, I have one of these as well. I was actually going to have both taking and viewing lenses dis-assembled and coated by Arax, but didn't get around to it by the time the factory quit, despite having this camera since May last year. :bang:
i have wondered if and where it is possible to get the old lenses coated, not that i want to coat the superfekta, but i wouldnt mind having one of my weltur w/tessar coated, for that matter i wouldnt mind having a flash sync added to the shutter as well

Mine's about in the same condition as your; since it's such a unique camera, and the mirror needs to be re-silvered rather than replaced.

i simply assume it will be cheaper and easier to buy a mirror already made and then cut to size rather than sending the old mirror in to be cleaned and then re-silvered.
through a couple of the links provided earlier and further searches i found a few places that can provide optical aluminium front surface mirror (available with a coating for extra durability as well from memory) and i found one place that could provide a silver mirror as well. the performance between the two are much the same with probably the coated aluminium more durable. the silver mirror keeps the camera more origonal not that it would be noticed.

chippy

03-25-2008, 14:49

I have a Welta "Welta-flex", which is a rigid TLR, a al Rollei.

The camera itself is in nice shape, and was stored in the original vevlet-flocked box; sadly, the viewing mirror is a mess - needs to be resilvered.

I wonder if this was a chronic issue with Welta mirrors ?

Could one of you chaps post some digi pics of your Perfekta / Superfekta ?

Thanks,

Luddite Frank

Hi frank.
sooner or later i may get around to finding a place where i can upload pictures of my little collection of cameras. in the mean time i found this link with a superfekta. the picture does not show it but the back rotates for taking landscape as well

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/Welta/html/superfekta.php

i dont think mirror degredation is specific to the welta brand. more like it is simply one of the pittfulls of age, enviroment and use of the old mirror and silver method. i have a perfekta and its mirror is much better and have heard of others being in good shape. the same can be seen in antique silvered household mirrors where the silvering has cracked, broken down and become shabby. they have the advantage of being rear surface mirrors with protective paint; the mirror in these camera dont have that benifit so it understanable they after 70+ years show signs of age.

is the welta-flex still a silver mirror? it is a much later camera and i am not sure when they started using aluminium is all.

i imagine (famous last words!) it would not be difficult to change out the mirror in the welta-flex. at least most TLR design cameras seem relatively easy (usualy involves finding the screws that hold the top on and removing them to gain access to the mirror, but the superfekta is more complex up the top with its moving mechanisms for landscape and portrait masks etc in that area.

Luddite Frank

03-25-2008, 15:18

Wow... that is truly an odd camera...

( Not that "odd" is a bad thing...)

Thanks for the link; I never knew such a thing existed !

LF

David Goldfarb

03-25-2008, 15:32

I had Frank Marshman (CameraWiz) do a complete overhaul on my Voigtlander Superb (which now belongs to another member of this site), and that included a new viewing mirror and recalibration for the new mirror, so he could do this. He's also worked on much of my Bronica stuff and a few folders and LF items. He does good work, and his prices are reasonable. 1-800-471-8133.

chippy

03-25-2008, 16:00

Wow... that is truly an odd camera...

( Not that "odd" is a bad thing...)

Thanks for the link; I never knew such a thing existed !

LF
it sure is! but it does have a certain appeal to it. very mechanical and kind of gadgety thing to it as well. of course it folds to be more compact than it otherwise would be..... and if seeing the big picture in the waist level finder is appealing but one does not want a square format which is the usual case then this is a great camera for 6x9 (although quirky odd haha!!)....cant wait to give it a go...whenever that might be! i still cant get over how nice the shutter on this one feels,compared to other old but good shutters i have, assuming it hasnt been cla (i dont think it has) it feels and sound crisp and spot on

chippy

03-25-2008, 16:02

Wayno

03-25-2008, 16:11

Hi Andrew. Have you checked with your local glass suppliers? There's a place here in Brisbane that sells (or used to last time I checked) first surface mirror. It's imported from the USA I think - it's a bit thicker than most mirrors used in TLRs, but you can usually adjust the viewing lens to compensate.

In regard to coating, there's a guy in Tasmania who has done that for me in the past. Search for Longman Optical. They can only do single coating, but it was a pretty cheap service.

chippy

03-25-2008, 16:21

In regard to coating, there's a guy in Tasmania who has done that for me in the past. Search for Longman Optical. They can only do single coating, but it was a pretty cheap service.

that is curious--did they coat the just the front lens or dismantle and coat the others too. could you say if the single coating made any significant or other difference. i remember reading that once zeiss changed to a coated lens with their tessars they claimed to capture 35% more light than the uncoated lenses. i also read that back in those days it was common for people to take their old lenses in to have them coated,,

i dont suppose you remember the ballpark cost ?

Wayno

03-25-2008, 16:35

that is curious--did they coat the just the front lens or dismantle and coat the others too. could you say if the single coating made any significant or other difference. i remember reading that once zeiss changed to a coated lens with their tessars they claimed to capture 35% more light than the uncoated lenses. i also read that back in those days it was common for people to take their old lenses in to have them coated,,

i dont suppose you remember the ballpark cost ?

I sent them damaged front elements which they polished to remove the old coating and then recoated. It's a single layer of Magnesium Flouride. I think it was about $70 for polish and recoat (one surface), but that was a couple of years ago now. A single coating is superior to uncoated in terms of light transmission and flare resistance; the later is probably the main advantage. Here's a shot from one of the repaired lenses, I was happy with the performance:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/Wayno3/Rolleiflex/th_Valleygraf2.jpg (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/Wayno3/Rolleiflex/Valleygraf2.jpg)

chippy

03-25-2008, 16:57

I sent them damaged front elements which they polished to remove the old coating and then recoated. It's a single layer of Magnesium Flouride. I think it was about $70 for polish and recoat (one surface), but that was a couple of years ago now. A single coating is superior to uncoated in terms of light transmission and flare resistance; the later is probably the main advantage. Here's a shot from one of the repaired lenses, I was happy with the performance:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/Wayno3/Rolleiflex/th_Valleygraf2.jpg (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/Wayno3/Rolleiflex/Valleygraf2.jpg)

i'll give em a call at some point re the coating, that would be cool...i had asked around localy but they all said too hard and too expensive and wernt really interested......i have a f2 xenon 50mm also that has some cleaning marks on the surface, if they can be polished off it should be a good lens as well..

hey funny that pic...are you sure you didnt go down to Tassie to take that. last time i was in the highlands of tassie i am sure i saw that exact family. i thought perhaps you took their portrait ;)

....just an old aussie joke re tasmanians (all tasmanians here are exempt of course!) kinda like the folk from that area in the movie 'Deliverance'

David Goldfarb

03-25-2008, 19:40

I think Focal Point Lens in Colorado charges $150 per surface for recoating, and it's mainly aimed at repairing the front surface of very desirable lenses that have become worn, or lenses on fixed-lens cameras like Rolleiflexes that would be difficult to replace. I think single coating improves light transmission by about 4% per surface, and multicoating gets about another 1% per surface. A Tessar has 4 elements in three groups, so that's 6 air-glass surfaces, and I guess the effect is cumulative, so I could see how you could get a 35% improvement.

Burke and James used to do aftermarket coating of uncoated lenses. I have a Schneider 210/3.5 Xenar with a serial number that indicates it was made before coatings, but it's coated and has a B&J sticker on it. I use it on my 5x7" Press Graflex--

http://www.echonyc.com/~goldfarb/who/28.jpg

#FT2_8*fffg.

03-25-2008, 20:59

I just found this online. It looks like this company will re-silver a mirror. Prisms cost $125, but that's because they're tricky. Should be less for a flat mirror.

http://bearglass.com/RESILVERING.html

I don't trust a new mirror, since that part of the camera folds up, it seems like it would be better to use the original part.

thanks for the lens lens re-coating tip, Wayno. Would the cemented element of the tessar type need to be taken apart?

oftheherd

03-30-2008, 05:40

Wow... that is truly an odd camera...

( Not that "odd" is a bad thing...)

Thanks for the link; I never knew such a thing existed !

LF

Well, I have the Perfekta, the 6x6 version. Believe it or not, I can't find some of the P&S photos I took of it, or the roll of film I put through it. I have only put one roll of film through it, with another it it. As soon as I can find them in the rat's nest I call my bedroom and where I keep my scanner and negatives, I will post them. The Zeiss lens seems very sharp. Mine too suffers from a bad mirror, which is one of the reasons I am not using it more. It is difficult to use as it is rather dark. Clever idea Welta had on these cameras. I don't know what they cost, but can only guess the cost must have had something to do with them not being more popular. They are a TLR and yet they fold. Nice, and pocketable. What's not to like? I too would like one of these days to get the mirrow resilvered. It would then become a favored user, even though 6x6 isn't my favorite format. I am becoming a little more of a fan of 6x6 due to using my 6x6 folders.

chippy

03-30-2008, 06:26

Well, I have the Perfekta, the 6x6 version. Believe it or not, I can't find some of the P&S photos I took of it, or the roll of film I put through it. I have only put one roll of film through it, with another it it. As soon as I can find them in the rat's nest I call my bedroom and where I keep my scanner and negatives, I will post them. The Zeiss lens seems very sharp. Mine too suffers from a bad mirror, which is one of the reasons I am not using it more. It is difficult to use as it is rather dark. Clever idea Welta had on these cameras. I don't know what they cost, but can only guess the cost must have had something to do with them not being more popular. They are a TLR and yet they fold. Nice, and pocketable. What's not to like? I too would like one of these days to get the mirrow resilvered. It would then become a favored user, even though 6x6 isn't my favorite format. I am becoming a little more of a fan of 6x6 due to using my 6x6 folders.

i havnt got my american catalogue in front of me at the moment but have the german one. it appears the Perfekta w/tessar was about 127 RM (german currency) 103 w/Trioplan the Superfekta 197 RM which was about the same as the Weltur, although all the prices in my book have been further notated (it looks like by the store/shop)to a least 10-15% more than those prices. from memory these were still cheaper than Lieca's or Contax but definately high end cameras. i presume that inflation was starting to kick in?

i still havn't put film through either of mine yet. actually i am still wondering exactly how to do it, not that i have tried as yet. i have been wondering what that to do with that knob on the top left with small sliding button inside it does!(A and E marked on i think) .

replacing the mirror in the Perfekta is easy. personaly i would just buy a new one, whether silver or aluminum the cost from my inquireries would likely be cheaper and give a better result than resilvering the old glass. after all they have to remove the old silver first (more labour and they have minimum charges) and cant do a lot about exsisting scratches on the glass. its easy to replace in the perfekta yourself. i removed mine and put it back just to see and it only took a few minutes, if the glass is the same thickness it should be a straight swap, if not then an adjustment with the lens or shim under the mirror, which is easy as well.

i have to agree i think they are great. they may look different but completely likeable. and foldable hey! i quite like being able to see everything on the screen as well (once i have a bright mirror that is!) but i guess i got used to that after using a hassleblad for yonks

tkluck

03-30-2008, 07:39

Re "silvering" mirrors? Amateur astronomers and telescope builders face this problem all the time. We are talking about 6, 12, and 20 inch parabolic reflecting mirrors, not Granny's old dresser mirror. These guys don't ship a mirror they've sweated blood grinding and figuring for months over to just anybody.
A TLR mirror seems analogous to the job of coating the small diagonal mirror in a reflecting telescope.
The most reasonable prices I've seen are from Aluminum Coating in San Carlos, California.
web site: http://www.alcoat.net/
email: alcoat@covad.net