View Full Version : Is the 28mm Biogon the ugly stepchild?
The praise for the 35mm and 25mm Biogon is universal at photo forums on the web. It is hard to find the same warm and fuzzy feelings for the 28mm. The size and field of view of the 28mm would fit my kit quite nicely. I also want to see what the Zeiss zeitgeist is all about.
If anyone wants to convince me to get/avoid the 28mm Biogon - here is your chance. :D
Roger Hicks
02-07-2008, 12:22
I think it's the focal length that is the ugly stepchild. It used to be the definitive ultrawide, until 21mm appeared, then it was neither 'wide standard' nor seriously wide.
It's a very nice lens: Zeiss lent me one. But I'd rather have a 25. That's just me. If it suits you -- go for it.
Cheers,
R.
sepiareverb
02-07-2008, 12:26
Much like the 25 in how it draws, smoother even if possible, but certainly not because of lack of detail. Smaller than the 25 also, a nice size on the M.
visiondr
02-07-2008, 12:28
If they made an f/2 version, I'd be all over it like white on rice. As it stands at f/2.8 the biogon just looks to me like any other f/2.8 28 mm. To me, pardon my philistinism, they all look the same.
Steve Bellayr
02-07-2008, 12:34
From what I have read (I do not own one.) it is sharper and less expensive than the Leica 28mm. You did not say which camera it was to go on. If you like the 35mm or already have a 35mm especially the Summicron it might be overlap. For owners of the M6 framelines only go to 28mm therefore less than 28mm you will need an accessory viewfinder which I find defeats the purpose of a Leica. IMOP.
dpetrzelka
02-07-2008, 12:36
Robert-
The build quality on the Zeiss lenses is impeccable- I feel they are built every bit as well as the current Leica glass I've owned. Zeiss is well-known for its uniformity of imaging/drawing across its line up. If you've been excited about the image quality you've seen from the 35 and 25, you will not be dissappointed by the 28 Biogon.
As for the 28 - I owned one for a while, and loved its performance, great size as well- not so small as some well know 35s, you can easily get your fingers in there to focus, and yet the lesn does not get in the way- I just found that 28 was not the right FOV for my style.
Here is one recent photo:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/Diesel_28Biogon03.jpg
(http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=78344&ppuser=8595)
Robert: You should definitely get it, here's why...
If dpetrzelka is correct regarding the lens characteristics (and I have no doubt), then I would love to see what you could do with it. I won't be able to acquire one for awhile, though I think this 28, the Nokton 40 and maybe the Hex 50 might be an almost perfect kit for me.
So please be my test driver with respect to the Zeiss 28. :D
(And I do agree about the speed ... f2 or 1.7 would be sweet.)
kshapero
02-07-2008, 13:33
I found the 24/25mm to be a better fit for me. A little more distinction.
thomasw_
02-07-2008, 13:46
I have owned the zm 28 but traded it for a zm 25. They are similar in signature as Bob mentioned, but the 25 offers just a few degrees more of storytelling view in the frame: which is great for street scenes. Also, I think the 25 resolves a wee bit more sharply. That may or may not be to your liking.
dpetrzelka
02-07-2008, 13:59
I couldn't agree with you more- a 2.0 or faster 28 from Zeiss would be much more usable, especially indoors. However with that wide of FOV, I guess you can get away with slower shutter speeds.
Robert - if you like what you've seen from the others in the Zeiss lineup (save the 1,5/50 Sonnar - as its a unigue character) - I bet you'll be well served by the 28 Biogon.
And if you are using an M4-P/M6 you won't need an external viewfinder.
sepiareverb
02-07-2008, 14:04
...I think the 25 resolves a wee bit more sharply. That may or may not be to your liking.
This may be that 'smoothness' coming into play. I don't think anyone will go wrong with any of these ZM wides.
The 25 and the 21 are a bit big for me, but I can't quibble with their drawing.
Hephaestus
02-07-2008, 14:17
If you like the focal lenght then I don't think you'll find anything to complain about. :)
Lots of good info to chew on here. Thanks to all for your input.
I just picked up a M6 to go with my M2 and R-D1. I'll be travelling to China next month and I wanted something wider than my 35 without having to use an external finder. The 28 would fit nicely on both the R-D1 and M6.
To finance this personal largesse I'm afraid my Plaubel Makina 67 will have to again hit the chopping block.
Earl - I'll do my best to put the lens through it's paces and yes, f2.0 would be sweet.
I do believe FrankS needs a third Makina. :D
sepiareverb
02-07-2008, 15:54
I'd trade my 28 for a Makina :D
Nothing wrong with the ZM28 but the ZM25 and ZM35 are the stars of line so if you get both and many do then why bother with the 28?
28mm is my favorite focal length in 35mm format, and the Zeiss 28mm/2.8 ZM is one of the best I have used. It is quite high resolution and contrast with very smooth OOF rendition. It is more like the Zeiss 25mm ZM than the 35mm ZM. I did eventually part with it when the Leica 28mm/2.8 ASPH came out. From middle distances to infinity, the 28mm ZM and new Leica are actually really similar, though the Zeiss is smoother in the close range (around 1 meter to minimum distance). I just wanted a smaller, lighter lens, not that the 28mm ZM is big, just that the Leica is so small, so I sold the Zeiss and kept the Leica. See #23, 24, 25 of this old thread (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30622) for some comparison shots. I find the 28mm to be about as wide as you can usually go without calling attention to the fact that you are using a wideangle.
One big advantage of 28mm with most Leicas is the finder compatibility. The ability to get parallax correction and see a little around the framelines is great for my brain's photo-composition functions, especially with rapidly changing scenes. To get the same with a 24-25mm M mount lens, I would have to buy a Bessa R4A or R4M. The 0.58X Leicas and 0.6X Hexar RF finders do work fairly well if you use the whole view for the 25mm Biogon, but it is just not the same as using a 28mm on a 0.58X or a even 0.72X Leica. Unfortunately, the HexarRF has a poor 28mm frameline due to Konica's placement of the meter LEDs ruing the left side brightline.
Steven - Thank you. Very helpful information.
Hi Robert,
I have a few dozen film rolls through my ZM 28 biogon, and maybe a hundred or so through the RD1, mostly of downtown SF. Let me know if you want me to post. I find the lens sharp, high contrast (not like a 30s Leica lens), and flare resistant, never once thought I needed the custom hood for it. The wide angle gives a lot of DOF unless you're wide open with a close subject.
Jamie Pillers
02-07-2008, 22:10
Why not the CV 28 Ultron? f/1.9, less $$.
Ted - thanks for info. The flare resistance of the Biogons is particularly appealing. I like the size without a hood.
Jamie - the CV 28 Ultron is a nice optic. Size matters to me though, and it's a bit larger than I would prefer. I also don't anticipate needing the extra speed with a 28. The price is certainly an improvement.
I got a ZM 28 one week ago, but no pictures until now.
But I also have a Zeiss 28 in use together with my Contax G2. And this one is really very good - crisp, very fine details and nice colors. I hope and I am sure, the ZM delivers similar performance.
sepiareverb
02-08-2008, 04:21
ZM 28 shot directly into the sun- it is not too far above the top frame edge- a grab shot, trying to get the snowball impact!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/zm28flare.jpg
The Ultron is a very good optic for the money & the extra stop does make a difference when shooting in low-light. I don't know about the ZM 28/2.8's size, but the Ultron certainly is not significantly bigger than the Leica 28/2 ASPH 'cron (I suppose greater speed inevitably means a larger lens). The Ultron has also been pretty flare-resistant (in comparison w/the 'cron & other modern lenses) in my experience.
Since I have the 'cron, I could sell you my Ultron (I kept it thinking I might use it w/1 of my LTM bodies, but that looks increasingly unlikely), so send an email if you're interested.
Ted - thanks for info. The flare resistance of the Biogons is particularly appealing. I like the size without a hood.
Jamie - the CV 28 Ultron is a nice optic. Size matters to me though, and it's a bit larger than I would prefer. I also don't anticipate needing the extra speed with a 28. The price is certainly an improvement.
ZM 28 shot directly into the sun- it is not too far above the top frame edge- a grab shot, trying to get the snowball impact!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff221/sepiareverb/zm28flare.jpg
So, I guess this shows that ZM lenses flare after all, huh?
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55659&stc=1&d=1202487837
The above photo was taken at 1/4 second f2.8 with an M2 on tri-x.
I just bought one but have not had a lot of time with it. It is a lovely lens to handle, solid and well made. The click-stop of the apertures are nicer than all my leica lenses and I like the knob for focusing. It blocks a little of the M6 rangefinder window.
The few rolls I've done have all the characteristics I've heard about the other ZM lense: sharp, beautiful rich tonality, nice contrast, slightly saturated colours, and nice smooth bokeh (when close and wide with this lens). It's strange, but when I get the scanned file there is a lot more information in the highlights than with other lenses. I'm very easily able to pull down the overexposed parts.
I love the 28mm focal length and am excited to have this lens, I think it will be a great performer for me. The 28mm f2.8 Leica lens has too much contrast for my taste and I like what Zeiss does better than the CV lenses, so for a modern lens, it is really my only choice. The 28 summicron is just out of the park for me at that price.
So, there's nothing ugly about this one in my eyes!
28mm is funny for me, it's not wide enough to have fun with with a wide angle, I'l use 21 for that and it's a little to wide for what I really want which is 35.
I have a version III elmarit that was an outstanding performer it just wasn't my FOV I guess, maybe in the future someday.
And I think all the Zeiss glass is top notch, spending time in time out with the sonnar just proves that. I just developed a ton of film the other day shot with my MP and Biogon and it's really something else.
Once I got to know Winogrand's photos, I was sold on the 28mm. I tend to be a fairly static composer. I have not yet learned to anticipate dynamic and moving events that well. The 28 inherently lends some drama to what I photograph and forces me to get close (not the case with the above photo :-). Sometimes it still distorts: when the camera is not parallel to the subject or when a person is near the edges (particularly violence inducing reactions when it's a female loved one that ends up seeing her photo).
sepiareverb
02-08-2008, 09:40
The ZM's will flare, but I don't know what wouldn't flare in the scene I posted.
sepiareverb, out of curiosity - do you put any extra surface in front of the lens? My ZM lenses flare much less even with the sun in the frame...
Can anybody offer any direct comparison of the ZM 28/2.8 with the summicron 28/2.0 (cost aside for the sake of academic discussion)?
LJS
sepiareverb
02-08-2008, 18:07
sepiareverb, out of curiosity - do you put any extra surface in front of the lens? My ZM lenses flare much less even with the sun in the frame...
No, that was naked. I think it was just the angle to the sun, I too have had much less flare generally- should have said this was worst case.
Hi guys
while attending at the reportage course in Milan, I tried (even if on a reflex) all the four classical short focal lenghts. This is what I found out.
50mm: see below, for my kind of shots, this is almost a "tele" lens. Of course, the utmost planarity is expected here. F/2 is enough, no need to go to a faster lens.
35mm: probably the nicest to frame a single person inserted on a certain context. The "longer" focal lenght also tend to avoid any kind of ugly distortions at the frame side. In my very personal opinion, it's an "intimate" lens, but I found it a bit narrow for larger views.
25mm: Well, here we are at the opposite. As someone said, you can frame a whole road without any doubt on what or how to take. Keep your camera on your chest, it's not strictly necessary putting it to your eyes, focus at about 3-4 m with F/5.6 and you're done. The problem, here is that you have to be REALLY close to people which otherwise look small (and somehow distorted if on the frame side) if already at 2 - 3 m from you. I'd keep it more for "landscapes" than for street.
So, this is why I too prefer the 28mm lenght. It gives me a bit more air than a 35 while substantially avoiding too much distortions at the sides. It can also be paired with a 50 for tighter framings. As for the 50/2, a F/2 lens would fit nicely everything. I'd pair it with an around 20 lens.
Of course, but this is only a reflex-based statement, a 25-50 F/2 or a 24-135 F/2.8-4 would be two excellent choices to work with.
As you see from my statement, my favourite lens is exactly the 17-35 which I can exploit both for landscapes and reportage, even if here a little more lenght would be greatly appreciated.
The 25 might be a star of the line...as might the 35 but have you used the 50 planar!?!?!!? Fantastic!
I own the 28 and am very pleased with it. If you use this lens and find it inhibits your photography (from a quality persepctive) frankly there is something wrong....(with you!). Sharp, good but not excessive contrast, smooth tonal rendition, and OOF. not too big, but not too small to handle, well built. The 28 fl might not hit you between the eyes like wider lenses but that is of benefit as often as it is a hindrance, depending on the creative intent. If you want a 28, you will not feel let down by the 28 in terms of image quality I am confident of that.
sepiareverb, I don't know about that photo. It looks very different than any I've seen from this lens. Everything seems to be fuzzy like an old vintage lens. Something really seems wrong with it. Is there snow on the surface? I doesn't look like what the lens should be doing. I've shot directly into the sun with the ZM and it didn't flare and was much sharper than that.
Looks like fog (condensation) on the lens, plus overexposure to me, but that's a guess. Shooting with the sun just outside the frame is a challenge for almost any lens though.
I have used ZM 28 and 25, and CV Skopar(LTM) 28 and 25, and Leica 24, BUT not Leica 28s: I still use Leica 24(sold the ZM 25), both CV(Skopars are great!), and ZM 28; the ZM 28 is very easy in hand, great contrast, great size(for moving about) and most of all, great FL, film and cropped digital.
Having some older Leica glass, I might agree that the 28/2,0 has a certain rendering because it too is of this "Old School(Mandler) Character", but Zeiss has a rendering that should not be discounted, at all!
While the ZM28 may not be praised as highly for its object, Zeiss did not produce a /bad/ lens at this FL. However great the CV 28 for its price, the ZM28 renders a bit more, ah, cleanly(distortion,CA,flare), thus more predictably and as expected. Good color and tone. I am not the reviewer type(saying exactly something about everything), but if 28 was my sweet spot, I might consider the Leica 28/2,0... not the newer 28/2,8.
I use the CV 28 for its size, the ZM 28 for its result. Compared to the ZM 25, it's got the air, color and tone from f4 up, with a tad less contrast below f8. Not knowing what you shoot, at this FL, the ZM 28 is not ugly, but speaks quietly(more quietly than one, well respected--and you must pay to read--reviewer felt his WA+mid-tele kit should[sic] afford). A truely plain dealer, this lens.
rgds,
Dave
rivercrew
03-05-2008, 20:05
Ted - thanks for info. The flare resistance of the Biogons is particularly appealing. I like the size without a hood.
Jamie - the CV 28 Ultron is a nice optic. Size matters to me though, and it's a bit larger than I would prefer. I also don't anticipate needing the extra speed with a 28. The price is certainly an improvement.
Robert
I had the 28mm CV Ultron and found it too flat for my tastes. Sold it and bought a Zeiss 28mm, absolutely love it. I also own a Zeiss 21mm f4.5 which I use a lot, so the 25mm wasn't a FOV that fit for me.
Dave, Roy - Thanks for the input. I ordered the 2,8/28 Biogon. I'll be using it on both an R-D1 and M6. I'm looking forward to using it.
Robert, I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy it. I enjoy my 28/2.8 Biogon on both the RD1 and the M6. Haven't used the Elmarit or Hexanon 28's, but from the photos I've seen it's up there with them, if anything it might have a tad more contrast, which I like especially for color. It's definitely a modern look, not the look of a '30s piece of Leitz glass.
Dave, Roy - Thanks for the input. I ordered the 2,8/28 Biogon. I'll be using it on both an R-D1 and M6. I'm looking forward to using it.
I'm reviving this thread to see if Robert's got any photos from the ZM 28 with the R-D1 :)
I'm mulling a 28mm again for the M8...
Cheers
Dave
Dave,
Here are a couple from my China trip w/ the R-D1. There are a lot more, but I am still processing from the trip. I just ran a roll of Tri-X through the M6 with it as well that I can post later.
I have no complaints with the lens. Both resolution and color rendering are excellent. More to come ...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3276/2388340232_a93a7b41a7.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2387510707_46818d25a7.jpg
The top one has a very cinematic look to it, the blue sky.
The 2nd one shows how accurate this lens is.
These photos want to make me want to pull mine from the classifieds, but I just don't use mine much relative to 35s and 50s.
Dave,
Here are a couple from my China trip w/ the R-D1. There are a lot more, but I am still processing from the trip. I just ran a roll of Tri-X through the M6 with it as well that I can post later.
I have no complaints with the lens. Both resolution and color rendering are excellent. More to come ...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3276/2388340232_a93a7b41a7.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2387510707_46818d25a7.jpg
Thanks for that Robert... very impressive - looks like a winner and would be a savings of about 1/2 the cost of the Elmarit-M
Cheers
Dave
I am planning a good test of 28mm lenses during the summer. Maybe then I could test such a lens to see how it compares with its peer lenses.
I am planning a good test of 28mm lenses during the summer. Maybe then I could test such a lens to see how it compares with its peer lenses.
Raid,
I'd like to see it beside the new Elmarit-M (most recent version) - mind you, if the 28mm is even close to the 35mm then I'd be happy with it.
Dave
I like this lens very much. Not many good examples of photo so far as mainly used for family shots. I have never tried other RF 28mm though, but are quite happy with the SLR C/Y 28/2.8 Distagon.
http://www.fuwen.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=81&Itemid=143
Johann Espiritu
04-19-2008, 18:27
I've been liking my 28mm Biogon (and 28mm in general) more each time I use it. Steven is right in saying that its "about as wide as you can usually go without calling attention to the fact that you are using a wideangle" - enough to see wider than human perspective, but not to the effect that the angle of view itself becomes the subject in itself.
Some samples here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/yophoto/
Just do a search for "Biogon" and you'll narrow it down considerably. :-)
Also, it's the "widest" I can get on my .72 M7 - making it practical in the sense that I don't need an external VF to use it.
Build quality is excellent, and it really has that "Zeiss" contrast and resolution to it. It's the perfect match to the 50mm Planar.
Hope that helps,
Johann
Looks like there are quite a number of supporters for the ZM28/2.8 :)
Johann Espiritu
04-20-2008, 05:50
Once I got to know Winogrand's photos, I was sold on the 28mm. I tend to be a fairly static composer.
Same here. Had a conversation with Charles Harbutt and he said he uses 28mm the most. I was sold after that.
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