How do you agitate?

[CuS]

I have been souping my own for about 3 months now and have used Rodinal, HC-110 (B and E so far) as well as D-76 1:1.

I have had a run of underdeveloped rolls and have narrowed it down to too little agitation (I love high contrast).

My question is: what is the best type of agitiation?

Do you shake, rattle or roll (or something else))?

Thanks!

[bmattock]

I read about politics. That usually does it.

[nikon_sam]

15-20 seconds when the developer is first poured in...then for 15 seconds every two minutes...5 seconds CW, 5 seconds CCW then the last 5 CW again...this is just how I do it...nothing scientific about it...
I've been using D-76 1:1 @68* for 12 minutes (Neopan 400 rated @ 320)
No inverting for me...

[Trius]

I agree with Bill.

This is actually a very good question ... some controlled testing would be fun and instructive.

I am currently of the "less is more" school, especially with high-dilution solutions.

[Keith]

I agree with Bill.

This is actually a very good question ... some controlled testing would be fun and instructive.

I am currently of the "less is more" school, especially with high-dilution solutions.


I'll join Trius's less is more school of thought ... I was getting some pretty wierd results until I backed off the enthusiasm on my agitation.

I actually place the tank between my ankles and jump up and down a few times every two minutes ... makes Neopan look like HP5 every time! :p

[moonwire]

First minute continuous agitation, then every minute 2 inversions (slowly). Definitely no shaking :)

[thomasw_]

less agitation is more with trix and rodinal 50+1.

[SolaresLarrave]

My version of agitation: turn the tank upside down very slowly, in a way that involves girating the tank at the same time that you invert it. Just put one hand holding the top, the other holding the bottom, and then switch them around at the same time you make the tank turn in your hands... easier done than said, alas, but very effective. An artist, photographer and art-gallery owner told me it's his surefire way to get the developer around the film.

Immediately after pouring the developer in, I agitate this way for 30 seconds. Then, I do it for 10 seconds, every 30 seconds until the timer goes off. Ideally, I will invert the tank five times during each 10-second agitation period, which is what the Ilford stuff I downloaded from the web recommends.

[naruto]

I follow the method mentioned above by SolaresLarrave. I slow it down considerably (1~1.5 inversion in 10secs every minute), when using Rodinal 1+50 and TriX. But, I follow the 2~3 inversions in 10 secs with HC110 dil H. :)

I have been happy with my results after the initial disaster with the first roll of TriX in Rodinal. :o

[mllanos1111]

This is all very interesting to me because I've been thinking about this more lately.
My film has been coming out pretty good for the most part, but maybe I'm a little anal retentive about my film.
I keep getting spots along the sprocket holes if I use an apron and long clear lines along the sprocket holes if I use a Hewes reel.
On occasion they have shown up on one of the frames and it's leading me to believe that it has something to do with my agitation.
I've been agitating for 30 sec after I pour it in with a couple inversions and for 10 seconds ever minute after. My agitation is a pretty good circular motion in both directions. I'm starting to think that the spots are either air bubbles and I do tap it or maybe I'm agitating too forcefully.:bang:
I would like the sprocket holes as well to be perfect because on occasion I print the entire frame sprocket holes and all.

[benmacphoto]

With HC110 I do 1 minute straight agitation by flipping the tank back and forth. Then every 30 seconds I agitate for 5 seconds back and forth until times up.

[Gabriel M.A.]

I read about politics. That usually does it.
I was thinking the same thing.

For photography, though, I do it gently. If using Diafine, I do my "gently" even "gentlier".

When using T-Max, no matter how I do it, it's wrong, so I just think about the 2000 election, and agitate it like there's no tomorrow.

[aizan]

one inversion per second for one or two reel tanks. i've never used larger ones...how long does one inversion take with those?

[chikne]

I flip the tank up and down, not slowly and not gently =)

[charjohncarter]

Like Trius and Bill, I think agitation is better gentle and at a minimum. For a while I was reading that to increase contrast you agitated more. But in my sloppy existence it seems to me that all you have to do is extend development time to get the same increase in contrast.

Stand development is possibly an exception to this. For my money, agitation is to even development, and to eliminate bubbles on the film. I agree there might be some freshing of developer in the highlight area with increased agitation, but I don't think it is enough to quantify, at least during normal development.

If anyone has an article that recommends increasing contrast by increased agitation, AND that couldn't be accomplished by just increasing development time, I would like to see it.

(I've searched the Web, again in my sloppy way so maybe incompletely)

[quizzard87]

@nikonhswebmaster: in what developer did you usually develop the tri-x?

[BigSteveG]

I invert continuously for the 1st minute. Then invert for 5 seconds every 30 seconds. works fine w/ Rodinal 1:25 and TMAX. I've not tried the 1:50 solution and am not sure what the effects would be. Any experienced comments on that?

[kaiyen]

Dektol? That must be some intense grain.

I use the same agitation for every film, every developer (well, other than stand, of course).

30 second initial.
10 seconds every minute.

Right hand on top, left hand on bottom. Invert while rotating right hand away from body. Return. Invert while rotating right hand towards body (no, this is not very comfortable). Return. Then one more time. I do 3 inversions in 10s. That's just how it works out.

I found that 5s every 30s left me with insufficient break-up of flow at times, especially with 120. So I switched to 10/60 and it's been fine.

I do not change agitation ever, regardless of developer. Not thousands of rolls but definitely hundreds. Probably 200.

allan

[drewbarb]

I read about politics. That usually does it.
Hilarious.

As for agitation, I couldn't begin to describe my exact motion. I think this is something that has to be learned in person by example. I use a variety of motions for different film formats in a variety of developing tanks and other equipment. I develop sheet film completely in the dark in open tanks or trays, with a range of movements. Roll films get a sort of rotating inversion, always done gently and fluidly, with as even a tempo as I can give. After 20 years I think I am pretty smooth and egular, but I still work at it. My tank film processing agitation gets about 3 rotating inversions per 5 seconds.

Remember that there is some truth in the old axiom "time controls desnity; agitation controls contrast". This is of course not the end of the matter at all, just a general concept worth remembering. With all of this in mind, I agitate differently, depending upon what information I have about how the film in question was exposed. In general, for film in closed tanks I give 45 seconds of agitation to begin with, and between 3 and 10 seconds of agitation per minute there-after. I follow the same agitation routine in the pre-wash, developer, and fix; the stop bath gets continuous agitation for the whole 30-45 seconds.

[Roger Hicks]

For a fixed time, temperature and developer concentration (for a given developer):

More agitation = more toe speed, grain and contrast

More agitation = less sharpness

After that, the precise choice of time, temperature and agitation is personal choice. There is no 'best way', just the way that gives the results you want.

All that matters is consistency -- and even then, the differences between 5 seconds per 30 seconds and 10 seconds per minute are pretty trivial with long dev times (over 10 minutes).

The simple truth is that the neg/pos process is immensely flexible. A lot of people who think they are being REALLY clever and precise and knowledgeable are being saved by this inherent flexibility.

If there were one 'best' way to do it, we'd all do the same thing. What does it tell you that we don't?

Cheers,

R.

[kaiyen]

I'm not Roger, so I'm wary of answering (I think that goes for anytime I am writing in place of someone whose books I read...) but yes, you want thinner negatives in general when scanning. If you could shoot every frame for minimum required density - just enough to get shadow detail - and develop to exactly the same highlight density every time, then you'd be set.

You're not going to see a big difference in grain between different agitation methods, in reality. The biggest factor, by FAR, is the film itself. So if you wanted finest grain then just shoot Delta 100 all the time. :-)

More agitation will produce more grain because you're putting fresh developer over the silver grains more often. That's just in general accurate.

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Ravinder,

Kaiyen has it exactly, except for one additional factor: grain is also very dependent on developer choice.

Some devs give more speed and coarser grain (e.g. Ilford DDX, Microphen); others give finer grain but less speed (e.g. Ilford Perceptol). A few devs give low speed AND coarse grain (e.g. Rodinal).

Any dev claiming high speed and fine grain should be examined carefully to see what they mean by 'fine grain'. If they mean 'fine for the speed', that's one thing; if they mean 'finer than a non-speed-increasing developer, and higher speed too,' they're lying. If it were otherwise, everyone would use that dev.

'Cut back on development' can be done in lots of ways: weaker dev, lower temperature, shorter time, less agitation... It doesn't matter much which you use. Agitation is like bokeh; a fashionable topic for people who are more concerned with equipment and process than with pictures.

So, yes: keep exposure to a minimum, and development to a minimum, and you'll get fine-grain, easily scanned negatives. They may not be as tonally rich for wet printing, but if you're not wet printing, what do you care?

Cheers,

Roger

[santi-u]

Very interesting all this thread. I'm new on developing, recently got my first two Delta 400 rolls, developed with HC-110. I'm trying to learn all this personal way on doing it.
I'm happy with my results, very exciting but is difficult to take conclusions. I need to develope hundreds more to understand all this concepts.
My way was; continious during the first 30s, and 5s (3 inversions +-) every 30s till finish.
I'd liked how kaiyen explained it, maybe i'll try that way.
I learn many things here, thanks all.

Cheers
Santi