View Full Version : Sigma Changes DP-1 Website
bmattock
01-29-2008, 09:37
About a month after an email message from Sigma CEO regarding the long-awaited, could-be-vaporware DP-1, the website has been changed. PMA announcement?
Or more disappointments?
http://www.sigma-dp1.com
You think they could write properly: "Now, a dreams come true"??
bmattock
01-29-2008, 09:45
That's not the only typo on it that I noticed.
But this makes me think it was a rush job - for some reason.
Announcement? One can hopes, doesn't one?
bmattock
01-29-2008, 10:28
The DP-1 is still going to be a horrible disappointment for me at least, it has no viewfinder, but just one of those horrid screens you have to hold 2 feet from your face.
What I want is an M8 killer, a Canon G9 with an APS size sensor. Seems the designers find that impossible to build.
The DP-1 is just another chimp camera as far as I am concerned.
I agree with your concerns for the drawbacks - those are mine as well. I also feel that the wide lens (I hear 28mm) is wider than I prefer - I would like a 35mm (equiv) or even a 40mm but I fear not many agree with me on that.
However, given 'only game in town' status if and when it is finally released, if I can possibly afford it (and perhaps I am waiting in vain and will not be able to afford it), I am tempted to epoxy a bloody external viewfinder to it and get on with my life.
I know, I know, I could have a Ricoh with that already - but I did not want the tiny sensor, regardless of how 'good' it is - it is tiny and that cannot be overcome with 'goodness'. I want what I want - an APS/C sensor, 35mm fixed lens, manual control, optical viewfinder. And the bloody LCD can bloody get stuffed - I have no particular use for it. I'll admit to the occasional histogram checking - but it is a bad habit to get into.
Tuolumne
01-29-2008, 10:34
It looks like its time has come 'round. Here's the announcement of the dealy:
http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/news/DP1_UpdateMessage_071130.htm
This new place holder Web site looks like it's preparing the way for a launch.
/T
Sigma can be such a tease. Or is it teases in Sigma speak.
Chimp camera or not - maybe some other manufacturers will consider building fixed-lens digicams with near APS-C sized sensors. Maybe if Yoshihisa Maitani were still at Olympus. Is anyone at Oly or Panasonic paying attention? .................... Probably not.
The DP-1 is still going to be a horrible disappointment for me at least, it has no viewfinder
The lack of an optical finder would be the good side of this camera. It allows you to use much brighter and sharper external viewfinders than any inbuilt optical finder of any digital camera ever was. And many of us happen to have such a finder.
The more negative aspects are the DP-1's slow lens (f4 compared to f2.5 of the Ricoh GR-D) and the fact the new Foveon sensor (also used in the already available SD-14) seems to be quite weak at higher ISO.
Didier
bmattock
01-29-2008, 10:42
Niche market, I don't think the Canons and Nikons, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic, et al, are listening. This properly belongs in the small craft-scale domain of the Sigmas, Cosinas, and etc. I'd just like to see more of it.
I agree with your concerns for the drawbacks - those are mine as well. I also feel that the wide lens (I hear 28mm) is wider than I prefer - I would like a 35mm (equiv) or even a 40mm but I fear not many agree with me on that.
Perfect so long as it is a 35mm equiv focal length that opens up to f/2.8. I wouldn't *** *** the lack of an optical viewfinder, because I'd rather use one that I already own.
bmattock
01-29-2008, 10:44
It looks like its time has come 'round. Here's the announcement of the dealy:
http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/news/DP1_UpdateMessage_071130.htm
This new place holder Web site looks like it's preparing the way for a launch.
/T
That announcement and mea culpa from the CEO was from November of last year. I took solace from it, but was still mindful of past vaporware and so held my enthusiasm in check to the extent that I was able. I'd like to see the camera shipping.
xayraa33
01-29-2008, 10:51
if this thing ever comes to a photo store shelf near you, it would be hopelessly out of date with all the delays in its intro.
bmattock
01-29-2008, 10:53
Depends entirely on what its capabilities are, although I agree with you in principle. The Olympus C-3040, case in point. 2001 tech, still a viable camera; and not really equalled at what it is good at.
if this thing ever comes to a photo store shelf near you, it would be hopelessly out of date with all the delays in its intro.
What's funny, if you set the Ricoh GRD II to ISO 80 and the DP1 to its slowest ISO, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Ricoh has better resolution.
The Fovecon has 14 million pixels, but they are layered giving an effective resolution of a 5 or so mega pixel Bayern sensor.
Fred, there is no VR on this puppy.
bmattock
01-29-2008, 11:07
Ricoh has better resolution
As if that were the only criteria. Small sensor is SMALL. Some types of creative photography cannot be practiced on a small sensor. This cannot be changed, physics being what it is. To me the resolution is but one part of the dance. For this, I have and will continue to reject the Ricoh GRD, et al. I'm sure they make fine photographs, no argument there.
Have you all seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv285AfHtp4&feature=related
Zenjitsuman
01-29-2008, 11:10
Look at this photo of the DP1
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06092604sigmadp1.asp
It seems to me the lens enclosure is much wider than the glass elements and that an extra f-stop f2.8 instead of f4 is doable without increase in diameter of the lens housing.
It also need raw and no shutter lag. You could use a small VF on the hot shoe in bright sun otherwise if the lens has DOF it won't be all that much a problem.
Look at this photo of the DP1
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06092604sigmadp1.asp
It seems to me the lens enclosure is much wider than the glass elements and that an extra f-stop f2.8 instead of f4 is doable without increase in diameter of the lens housing.
It also need raw and no shutter lag. You could use a small VF on the hot shoe in bright sun otherwise if the lens has DOF it won't be all that much a problem.
Starts to sound like an R-D1, except for the interchangeable M mount lenses. :)
shadowfox
01-29-2008, 12:49
That version in the Youtube video looks like a Panasonic LX2. And sports an external VF.
So, aside from the APS size sensor, what else is worth getting excited about this camera?
bmattock
01-29-2008, 12:55
I think that's pretty much it, unless the Foveon design also floats your boat. The APS/C is enough to make me want it - and frankly, I need no other reason.
PetarDima
01-29-2008, 13:33
with fast focus - as it can be on digicam, it will be fine street shooter - Winogrand
28 mm retro style :)
BillBingham2
01-29-2008, 14:34
GR-D I is working fine for me. What I really want is something about the size of a GR-D, maybe a bit bigger. The controls (Shutter Speed and ISO) and meter of a Bessa L (perhaps a bit more center weighted please). 28 or 25mm equivalent, manual focus and aperture control like the SnapShot-S. A verification of focus would be nice but only if there was an LCD to show just that area. Shots JPG and RAW, fast cycle times for up to three shots. f3.5 on the lens would be nice, but 2.8 would rock.
B2 (;->
A shop in Australia has just listed the DP1 for sale along with a few accessories eg hood, viewfinder, etc...
http://www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?id=220.253.28.1981201247473&brand=&user=&end=1&Item1=CAMERA&Item2=SIGMA&Item3=Digital
The retail price of Au$990 including taxes is about US$870 at current rates. But everything here is marked up to buggery which is why myself and most others buy from the larger internet order companies eg B&H. 50% or more above the cost of buying from overseas is common.
My bet is on US$699 rrp (msrp) when/if it's announced.
George.
I know, I know, I could have a Ricoh with that already - but I did not want the tiny sensor, regardless of how 'good' it is - it is tiny and that cannot be overcome with 'goodness'. I want what I want - an APS/C sensor,
That may or may not be true, but a big sensor can be overcome with badness, though. The Foveon sensor, which isn't exactly big to begin with, traditionally has had underwhelming low-light performance, and the lens is so slow that you don't get a DOF advantage either vis-a-vis the smaller sensor, so in the DP-1 the advantages of the larger sensor are exactly zero.
Philipp
Not exactly true, the Fovecon will have better color reproduction.
IGMeanwell
01-30-2008, 03:16
GR-D I is working fine for me. What I really want is something about the size of a GR-D, maybe a bit bigger. The controls (Shutter Speed and ISO) and meter of a Bessa L (perhaps a bit more center weighted please). 28 or 25mm equivalent, manual focus and aperture control like the SnapShot-S. A verification of focus would be nice but only if there was an LCD to show just that area. Shots JPG and RAW, fast cycle times for up to three shots. f3.5 on the lens would be nice, but 2.8 would rock.
B2 (;->
If the lens is excellent with minimal distortion and sharpness throughout ... I will think of it more like the Yashica T4 (though with a 28mm equiv)
A great camera for bright days, travel camera and hopefully an excellent performer in the flash photography end of things ... perhaps this could be a digital equivalent of the T4
Just throwing a few ideas out there
Not exactly true, the Fovecon will have better color reproduction.
Well firstly this is not a function of sensor size in the first place, secondly in existing cameras you get that for a huge tradeoff in wideangle vignetting and in weird, difficult-to-correct colour noise at higher ISOs for those low-light shots we're all interested in, thirdly Bayer sensors are catching up here as well, and fourthly that's highly subjective anyway.
Philipp
bmattock
01-30-2008, 03:52
That may or may not be true, but a big sensor can be overcome with badness, though. The Foveon sensor, which isn't exactly big to begin with, traditionally has had underwhelming low-light performance, and the lens is so slow that you don't get a DOF advantage either vis-a-vis the smaller sensor, so in the DP-1 the advantages of the larger sensor are exactly zero.
Philipp
At the risk of sounding pedantic - I want what I want. I know what a large sensor vs a small sensor does for me, as I have extensive experience with large film versus small film. I want what I want, and I know why I want it.
I know what a large sensor vs a small sensor does for me, as I have extensive experience with large film versus small film.
Well, as the sensor technologies are somewhat different, my impression is that you'd find yourself in the situation of somebody who uses 100 ASA slide film on 35mm and 1600 ASA negative on medium format and then wonders why the sensor size doesn't make the difference he thinks it should, but maybe Sigma gets their act together and you'll get lucky.
I want what I want, and I know why I want it.
Well if you don't get what you want with existing cameras, IMHO you're unlikely to get it from this one, but anyway good luck with the DP-1 if the camera ever hits the market.
Philipp
bmattock
01-30-2008, 15:22
Here's an announcement of sorts:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08013108sigmadp1.asp
Perhaps something a bit more solid:
http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/sigma_dp11/
bmattock
02-01-2008, 05:56
Here's some more - details trickling out.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/01/hands-on-with-sigmas-dp1/
Maybe if Yoshihisa Maitani were still at Olympus. Is anyone at Oly or Panasonic paying attention? .................... Probably not.
According to my avatar tagline, I'm still waiting. :bang:
Hell, I would take a fixed lens 35 to 40mm with a FF sensor. As with Bill, no need for an LCD ... give me analog controls, manual exposure (maybe aperture preferred thrown in for lazy days) and multi-spot metering. OK, it's a 35SP with OM-4 metering. So sue me, Olympus, for being picky.
bmattock
02-01-2008, 07:15
Yes, that would be very nice. Apparently not something that enough people want to induce any manufacturer to make it - but one can hope. In the meantime, I get by with my Kodak C663 and wait to see if I'll be able to scrape together the shekels for the DP-1 (and whether it will be something I truly want once people start using and reporting on it).
Trius, I remember when I got my first Oly XA back in 1984 - no one I knew took Yoshihisa Maitani's creation seriously. It wasn't perfect by any measure, but the photos that came out of it at f/5.6 to f/8 were more than impressive.
I'm waiting to see what an 5x7 or even an uprezzed 8x10 image photo from the DP-1 looks like compared to one taken from a Canon G9 or Ricoh GRD II.
I think Olympus (or anyone else) would be surprised at how many people would buy such a camera. Not in the huge volumes consumer/prosumer digicams sell, of course, but enough, with flexible, efficient manufacturing, to make it worthwhile. Even if the profit were small, it is a statement camera, and every company, no matter how large or small, needs to make a statement from time to time.
Sigma isn't exactly a camera company, and they are trying it. Ricoh isn't a major player, but look at what they're doing. I guarantee a huge percentage of the folks on the OM list would buy one, there would be a bunch more from here and other forums, and for every four or five buyers, they would "sell" one to a friend or acquaintance through the cheapest form of marketing there is ... word of mouth.
shadowfox
02-01-2008, 08:18
According to my avatar tagline, I'm still waiting. :bang:
Hell, I would take a fixed lens 35 to 40mm with a FF sensor. As with Bill, no need for an LCD ... give me analog controls, manual exposure (maybe aperture preferred thrown in for lazy days) and multi-spot metering. OK, it's a 35SP with OM-4 metering. So sue me, Olympus, for being picky.
On top of that, I want a digital XA-4 and a digital Pen-FT. :D
So we have our fixed lens FF and half-frame digi lineup all set then!
Oh, and I finally went to the new DP-1 website ... a very good job of teasing. The promise of the Foveon and new processing engine are alluring indeed. Since there's a hot shoe on the camera, I'd stick on an external finder and hope the LCD could be turned off. :D
foto_mike
02-01-2008, 12:53
I honestly don't understand the animosity towards this little camera, especially from folks who claim they have no use for it. It's another option. It might force your favorite manufacturer to build something better or drop their price on your favored camera. Or, horror of all horrors, it might be a great little camera in its own right.
For some of us, there's way more to a good digital camera than resolution or ISO specs. I'll personally be thrilled if the DP1 nails a wide, accurate color gamut with good dynamic range. I still shoot mostly film, even though the high megapixel cams have eclipsed the resolution capabilities of many of the film cameras I use. I still prefer the tonal characteristics of the films I use.
I'm not currently in the Foveon sensor camp. I don't own a Foveon-based camera. However, I appreciate the attempt by Sigma at making a high performance wide angle camera that fits in a jacket pocket. If the samples look good, I'll jump at the chance to buy one.
Rick Waldroup
02-02-2008, 16:03
I honestly don't understand the animosity towards this little camera, especially from folks who claim they have no use for it. It's another option. It might force your favorite manufacturer to build something better or drop their price on your favored camera. Or, horror of all horrors, it might be a great little camera in its own right.
For some of us, there's way more to a good digital camera than resolution or ISO specs. I'll personally be thrilled if the DP1 nails a wide, accurate color gamut with good dynamic range. I still shoot mostly film, even though the high megapixel cams have eclipsed the resolution capabilities of many of the film cameras I use. I still prefer the tonal characteristics of the films I use.
I'm not currently in the Foveon sensor camp. I don't own a Foveon-based camera. However, I appreciate the attempt by Sigma at making a high performance wide angle camera that fits in a jacket pocket. If the samples look good, I'll jump at the chance to buy one.
I agree 100%. I can't wait to see the test results. If things look good, I will definately be taking a serious look at buying one of these.
Kawabatnam
02-02-2008, 17:23
Have a look here: http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2008/02/02/7893.html
(I've just realised that max ISO was 800...).
bmattock
02-03-2008, 08:29
More hands-on with photos of the results:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0802/08020301sigmadp1gallery.asp
PetarDima
02-03-2008, 09:55
up to ISO 4oo DP1 is killer camera! Extra sharp, I'll try some B&W conversions in Ps ... ISO 800 is a little different, noise is not film like - like lower ISOs, there are
some moire too ... I hope that final product + post processing will make ISO 8oo
100% usefull :) . Big question is focus: is it quick enough? Does manual focus works well?
ncd_photo
02-03-2008, 10:56
At first Glance the pictures look pretty sharp but they look very 'digital' to me with a fair amount of stair stepping - the downside to no AA filter I suppose.
Jury is still out - its still pre-production, but I think for a pocketable landscape camera my FM and provia will probably win the day.
If you want fast grainy street photos without shooting film then the GRD looks a better option I fear....
shadowfox
02-04-2008, 07:45
I agree with Nick above. So far looking at the test photos, they are indistinguishable from the throngs of other digital P&S pictures. Super clean, very sharp, ... and flat :)
But this opinion weighs more on the choice of the scenery.
I have always been curious as to the choice of full-day, sun-blasted scenery for a camera test. Every lenses nowadays perform "ok" under this condition. I guess I am asking too much from a dedicated review.
I'd like to see the camera in the hands of a gritty street photographer, low-light, up-close, and let's see if the big sensor can render the stuff close to film's depth.
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.