The "big" leap

[Unregistered]

Hi all,

I am just beginning to learn about rangefinders and have decided to go straight to the source for help - experienced rf users!

First off, I am an slr user. I shoot a canon A2 in combination with 24mm 2.8, 50mm 1.8, and 100mm 2.0. This summer I inted to travel throughout europe and have decided that a smaller camera would be better. The big slr is great, but (even when shooting here at home) I find it to be very obtrusive: it gathers way too much attention. In a travel situation, I think this would make me a target for theft and also inhibit my picture-taking as an "observer." So, looks like a rangefinder should be perfect!

While that decision was easy, deciding which rf is a little more tricky. I have been reading (on the internet) as much as possible about different models/companies/features/etc. but am still lost. After all, I have never even peered through one before! So I'm hoping that maybe you can help me narrow down my choices (in terms of camera and glass).

Here are my criteria:
-relatively cheap (i'm a student......) roughly $200 Canadian.
-size does not matter. After an slr kit, anything will feel small.
-manual control
-ease of use
-availability. I'm assuming used through ebay might be the only way to find such a creature?
-Good/fast glass. Obviously not up to leica pricepoint, but something still sharp and contrasty.
-Lens. Removable or fixed? Focal length(s)?

Okay, hopefully this isn't way too much to ask. But atleast it should get the ball rolling : ) Any help would be great and I will add more detail if i've missed anything.

Thanks a bunch, Andrew

[iMacfan]

Firstly, let me say that I am far from the most experienced person who could answer this, but as a student who is in the middle of sorting out a rangefinder kit, I might be of some help.

Now, you will realise that rangefinders, both vintage and new, are having a comeback, which makes all the well known names (e.g. Leica) cost a fortune. This means that there is only one option if you want an interchangable lens rangefinder : The russians. They can be divided up into the contax mount and leica thread mount ones. I'd recommend that you plump for the LTM ones, as many more lenses have been and are made for them. They do, of course have their pitfalls and can be unreliable and crudely made, but a good one will stand up to any of todays plastic p+s cameras.

Using a currency converter, 200CDN seems to be roughly 80 UK pounds, which isn't too much. If you look hard and are lucky on eBay, you should be able to pick up a Zorki 4K with a Jupiter 8, a cheap light meter and another lens in non-mint condition for this. The Zorki 4K is probably the best LTM russian rangefinder, as it is comparatively recent, has a film wind lever as opposed to thumbwheel and was made in large numbers so as to be outside collector territory. The Jupiter8, is a copy of the Zeiss f2 50mm Sonnar, and if in good condition is as sharp as anything this side of modern Leica glass.

Plumping for a fixed lens rangefinder gives you far more options, with the ability to demand a bit more quality. These are three possibilities (of many).

1. Canonet G111QL
The best of a long line of well built, compact Canon rangefinders. Comes with an excellent fixed 40mm f1.7 lens. Loads quickly and is pretty small. This does have auto exposure, which is shutter priority, and there is a pure manual mode.

2. Olympus XA
The original (and better) template for the mju/epic. Slower f2.8 35mm lens, which is said to be pretty sharp, but the body is very small. The best feature (for me) is the apeture priority. I'd love to have one!

3. Rollei 35
I know that this isn't really a rangefinder, but it is tiny, well built and quirky enough to appeal to rangefinder nuts. Make sure you get one with a Tessar or Sonnar(may be too expensive). Ask me in a week or so when I have the first roll of film back from my new one with the Tessar. You might not be able to get a mint one for your budget (mine is far from mint), but these work after a great deal of abuse. The benefit of this is complete manual control - the meter is separate.

Hope this helps, and keep us informed of what you do,

David

[strangedoctor]

First, search the archives of this forum since there is a lot of information about this subject there. It's been discussed many times.

I've used the Olympus XA. While it has a great lens, it is quite junky, closer to a point-and-shoot, and mine broke after a few months.
Maybe look for other fixed-lens 1970's stuff.

I always recommend the new Voigtlanders. The lenses are superb. At bare minimum ($50-$75) you could get a Bessa L (http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtbl.htm), which is like a modern Leica from the 1920's, and a 35mm lens, finder. I love mine -- simple, although you must really stick to wide angles since there's only scale focussing.

On my travels I always brought this with my M6, 28mm + 50mm lenses. Small and unobtrusive. SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE,SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE,SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE.

[iMacfan]

Originally posted by strangedoctor
At bare minimum ($50-$75) you could get a Bessa L, which is like a modern Leica from the 1920's, and a 35mm lens, finder.

How can you get that kit for that price?

[sherp]

Thank you for the help so far guys,

Your input brings up a few more questions/thoughts. A rangefinder without a built in meter would be too much of a pain, for travelling especially, I think. I have noticed that some rfs have ttl metering while others do not. Does this make much of a difference? I will be shooting b&w neg. film and colour slide film. I am worried that the slide film might be too difficult to shoot with an "iffy" meter. Am I wrong in thinking this?

[iMacfan]

Slide film will indeed be the hardest to shoot without an accurate meter. You won't get TTL metering in a '70s compact rangefinder, only in the Leica M5 or later, and the Cosina Voigtlanders. The best you can hope for in the compact RFs is ATL (above the lens metering), where there is a seperate light sensor which is within the filter ring of the lens, so it automatically compensates for filters and has a very similar angle of view as the actual lens.

[ZeissFan]

A budget of C$200 is a bit limiting. You're probably looking and something without interchangeable lenses and most likely used.

The folding Retinas and the Retina IIIS are very nice cameras and might fall within your budget. A good condition Retina IIa is an excellent choice.

Other possibilities: Voigtlander Vito II or IIa, a 1970s-era rangefinder (lots of choices, mostly Japanese) and an Olympus Pen F -- a very slim half-frame SLR. Ultra-cool camera.

I might lean toward either a Retina IIa, IIc or IIIc. Both have excellent 50mm f/2.0 lenses. The IIc/IIIc can use angle and telephoto lenses. Downside of anything from eBay: Most will need some routine service.

[strangedoctor]

I meant $75 for the Bessa L body. You'll still need finder and lens.

Try one of those Olympus 35s if you must have a rangefinder.

[That Guy]

Hi Sherp, and welcome to the board. I just wanted to give a word of note on the 70's era fixed lens cameras. I've bought two from eBay hoping to get a good deal on a first rangefinder. The Yashica GSN had a busted meter which I had hoped to get fixed, but it consequently fell from about 6 feet, so a moot point (no worries, it was ten bucks). But it took a long since discontinued mercury-cell battery. The Minolta Hi-Matic 9 I bought also takes a mercury-cell, though a different size.

Yashica Guy (http://www.yashica-guy.com/) has a great website and sells a battery adapter for a few dollars that fits the Electro "G" Series cameras. It worked perfectly for me. A great RF patch on that camera, BTW.

So be advised that you might have some battery finagling to deal with on the older cameras.

[That Guy]

Okay after posting my last replay, I couldn't help but look for a "replacement" Yashica for myself and I came across this on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=30028&item=3808570609&rd=1).

I mention it because it has some of the accessory lenses included to give it telephoto and wide-angle capabilities. Maybe someone else will chime in with an opinion of it.

[Brian Sweeney]

Accessory lenses on a Rangefinder, ie front element wide-angle and telephoto, are very slow to use on a rangefinder. You must focus, read the scale off of the normal lens, and then reset the distance using the distance scale on the wide/tele lens. This includes lenses that screw into the filter mount, like the Yashica GSN, and that replace the front element, like the Retina IIIc.
The Russian cameras, like a Kiev 4, can be bought with lenses for your price. But reliability can be an issue. Buy from someone who has checked out the camera and has shot film through it.

The Kodak Retina IIIS is a great camera, and it plus a 50mm F1.9 Xenon, 35mm F2.8 Curtagon and 85mm Tele-arton can be bought for $200 Canadian. Again, this camera is from 1958 and should be bought from someone who has actually used it. The VF/RF is easy to clean and the manual is available on Ebay. I need to finish off my "mini-review" of it. This is a reliable camera, and the meters even work on about 3 of 4 cameras. I sold one on Ebay not too long ago in perfect operating condition and EX+ cosmetics with 4 (50 F2.8, 50 F1.9, 35 f2.8, and 135F4) lenses for $200US.

[Brian Sweeney]

One other thought, the low-road. Get a good fixed-lens RF like the Canonet QL17 (40mm f1.7 lens) or Yashica Lynx 14 (45mm F1.4 lens) and stick to the SLR for wide-angle and Telephoto. Cost will be under $100CDN. I picked my Canonet Ql17 for $30US, and sold a Lynx 14 for $50US. The Lynx is not a small camera... it fit perfectly in a Yashica fitted case for the J5 SLR.

PS: For "unobtrusive", the Canonet and other small RF's are hard to beat. My Retina vintage IIIS with it's all-chrome lenses will draw attention when out in a public place. One time I had a Bag-Pipe player at a festival stop playing, walk up to me, and ask "Is that a Leica? My Father always wanted a Leica."

[wierdcollector]

If you really must have a meter, a FED 5C is a good choice, cheap, reasonably recent so less likely to need CLA, many good lenses available cheap. If you don't need removeable lenses, a Yashica Electo GSN, Ricoh 500 G, Minolta Himatic F or G, Konica C35, Canon Canonette 19, 25 or 28, Olympus Stylus Epic, or even a Petri 7S in working shape, are all affordable, relatively good quality and in the case of the Petri at least, make a mean self defense weapon on an old hippie style strap. Point being, there are many choices of fixed lens RF cameras which you can use by carrying a separate cheap light meter, or a few choices that have interchangeable lenses and built in meters. There is also the option of the older hot shoe mounted meter units if you can find a good working one. I have a Ricoh unit myself that still works like a charm. It all depends on your tastes, needs and budget. Let us know how you make out in your search. Curt in Canada.

[Todd.Hanz]

Good thread,
I just aquired a Yashica GSN for 35.00, with acc. lenses. Supposedly they can take the 45mm and make a "wide" 37.7mm and a tele 58mm, the jury is still out as to the quality of the end picture but stay tuned and I will post some samples when I develop the film. The camera itself is very slick, although it is apeture priority and shutter speed is set for you, not manual so it may not be what you are looking for. Don't knock the fixed lens rangefinders most have a fixed lense size of 40-50mm and a FAST f stop of 1.4-2.8 . I read somewhere that 95% of all pictures could have been taken with a normal lens, there may be something to that.
I say go get a Canonet, a Konica S2, GSN, or whatever for about 25.00-75.00 bucks, throw a roll of film in there and go shoot it. They'll impress the hell outta' ya, you cannot go wrong. If you keep it, it will be one more tool in your bag.

[taffer]

Hi Andrew and welcome to Rangefinderdom !

Here's another vote for the Canonet. I own and use some Former Soviet Union rangefinders, and even though I like them a lot (mainly the Contax II copies, the Kievs, of which I have three now), they're probably not the best way to be introduced in the RF world for everyone.

On the other hand, they were my intro to that world :), but after owning and using also a couple of Canonets and some other fixed lens rangefinders, I can't do more than praise their virtues.

The Canonet G-III QL17 is probably the most famous fixed lens RF out there nowadays, and a lot can be read about it. Apart from a great lens, it's a well made and really compact camera that you can carry easily everywhere.

It has an automatic exposure (shutter priority) mode as well as a manual one that doesn't need batteries to operate. You'll find lots of them on eBay, but if you can find a recently serviced one (if light seals were not recently replaced then you'll have to do that, after 20+ years they turn into some sticky black goo) for $75 or so with Buy-It-Now options. They're not always there, but if you wait a bit you'll find it.

There are also a lot of other interesting fixed lens RFs, such as Minolta Himatics, Konica Auto S, and the huge Olympus family. I suggest you to take a look at Stephen Gandy's www.cameraquest.com and have a look at Compact 35's RF section.

You'll find there info about Russian rangefinders too, so you can make yourself an idea about them. Also, if you're lucky enough, you can find a nice Canonet and still have some money to get a Fed-2, 3, a Zorki 4, a Kiev or some other ruski and give it a try just to give yourself an idea.

Good luck with the quest !

Oscar

[sherp]

Thanks so much for all the input everybody!

By the sounds of it, a 70s fixed-lens rf is the way to go. So I'll keep my eyes open for a bargain, and once I get one, play around with it for a while and decide whether it would suit all my needs for europe. I can see myself prefering a rf over an slr.... hopefully this won't become too expensive later down the line!

A few quick specific questions now (Canonet Q17 GIII):
- Is the top shutter speed of 1/500th a pain in the butt?
- The meter is not ttl. Will it be accurate enough to shoot slide or am I stuck with neg film? This part is pretty important for me!
- What is a fair price for an overhauled (seals restored, shutter cleaned+calibrated, vf cleaned+calibrated) canonet?

Another interesting camera I have noted is the Olympus 35SP. It has center-weighted as well as a spot meter. Would the spot meter be very difficult to use? Would it be at all beneficial for shooting slide film?

Thanks again, Andrew

[iMacfan]

The shutter speed isn't too annoying, as long as you use appropriate film (i.e. don't leave 400 film in on a bright day in Summer). One idea is to use a polariser, which doubles up as a 2-stop natural density filter at a pinch. Get a 48mm (Canonet's unusal filter size) to 52mm converter to make it easier to find filters. The light meter should be fine for slides, especially as there is an exposure lock function. Be careful not to be ripped off, as a shop could charge up to $400 USD for a perfect one, which makes replacing the light seals yourself seem not too bad!

David

[rover]

48 mm filters are easily found on ebay, this seller has been very good to me and some others here,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=maisonfoto&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50

In general I use 200 ASA or slower film, but I have 1 and 2 stop ND filters that I can use in bright light when I have faster film loaded. The meter is not TTL, but it is in the lens construction, so the camera will automaticly compensate for the filter.

As far as price, follow a bunch on Ebay, real clean ones probably will still command close to $100. If you are looking for a good user, find a good one and send it for a full CLA. The total investment may be up to $200 doing this, but you will have a good friend for a while.

I don't have an Oly SP, but you will hear a lot of good about them too.

[SolaresLarrave]

sherp, for a while I was an enthusiastic collector of Japanese 70s RF cameras until I stumbled into Leicas... but that's another story.

Canonets are one choice to use that film you always wanted to, but never knew how to get: Kodachrome 64. With this film, sunny days are more than a blessing, and your fastest shutterspeed necessary will be 1/125 (assuming you use the lens at f5.6).

Now, another good alternative: the Konica Auto S2. It's larger and heavier than the Canonet, but the viewfinder is just like the Leica M3's. Unlike the Canonet, the meter doesn't quit working when you switch the camera to manual, and their lenses are first rate as well. At risk of hurting some good ole members here, I'd aim for one instead of an Oly. If I see something for sale (be it a Canonet or anything I'd like to lay my hands on), I'll pass you a PM through the board. Good luck! :)

[SolaresLarrave]

Ooops! As for a fair price for a Canonet... it's still under USD $100. Regarding accuracy of metering: I only shot slides with mine. If the metering isn't strictly TTL, it's close, because the cell is located right above the inner lens ring, and if you put a filter on it, it'll cover the cell as well. So, for practical purposes, it is TTL.

Let's hope I covered all your questions. BTW, Kodachrome 64 is slide film (the best there is in color!).

[Taipei-metro]

There are a lot of cameras out there,other than GIII,problem w/GIII is the battery and metering system,last GIII rolled out of Taiwan Canon factory in 1982,22 years probably is the time the metering system goes dead,I don't know, mine died 2-3 years ago.
The auto focus relieve the photographer from the fuss of lining up two images in the viewfinder,an absolute necessity in street shooting,

Konica Eco 28/3.5,Fuji Tiera(DL Mini) 28/3.5,Olympus Epic 35/2.8,Canon WP-1 32/3.5,Leica C3 28-80/3.5-10.5,Konica Lexio 28-80/3.5-10,Fuji Klasse 38/2.6(Rollei AFM,this camera drop its price from $499 to $299)....
Have fun searching for the next camera...

[back alley]

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007yoE

and no, i'm not connected to the seller.

joe

[SolaresLarrave]

Andrew, check your PMs! There's something in there for you.

[DickS]

I like the Yashica Electro cameras, but don't expect too much from the auxiliary lenses. And when you are trying to line up the focus of the auxiliary lens it is all to easy to unscrew it from the camera and then you have to start over again.

There is supposed to be a type of auxiliary lens that slips on the main lens rather than screwing on. I have never seen one but it should be easier to use.

I think the Yashica Lynx is a good camers and is easy to use. And there are various Russian cameras available at a low price. Go to EBay and search for rangefinder cameras and you'll find many with prices ranging from around $25 to several hundred dollars, depending on the type of camers.

Dick

[Huck Finn]

Andrew,

I would be very careful about buying an older camera from e-bay. You have no idea what you will be getting & no idea who you are dealing with. Many older budget cameras being sold are broken in some way & many buyers don't care if the light meter, for example, isn't working. Others are just happy to have a collectible camera to display on a shelf. But you are a user & want something you cand depend on. After all it is the only camera you will be taking on this trip & you don't want it to fail you.

I agree with the idea of a fixed lens '70s era rangefinder, given your budget. The Konica S2 & S3 had the best lenses of these cameras in this era, but the build quality is suspect. If you can gety one in good shape, it will take great pictures. But these are rare.

I own a Canonet GIII QL17 & recommend it highly. Its sister camera the Canonet GIII QL19 is also excellent. The difference is a 40mm/f1.7 lens on the former & a 45mm/f1.9 lens on the latter. While the entire Canonet line was very good, these two were the best & last of the series, manufacturing dates 1972-82, so other models will be older. By the way, the Canonet manuals are available on line & can be copied on your printer.

I would recommend that you buy from www.cameraquest.com. This is Stephen Gandy's website & he is excellent to deal with. He will take your calls personally & answer your questions. He has one of each of the Canonets for sale right now. QL19 for $150 & QL17 for $175. While you will pay more from him, you can count on the fact that he has inspected them & done any necessary repairs. He has also updated them to accept modern batteries. He will also warranty them, so if you have a problem, you can find him - something that you can't necessarily do with a purchase from e-bay. Ignore the higher-priced black models on his site; the price reflects their value as collectibles, not their value as picture taking machines.

Good luck with your purchase & enjoy your trip!

[Huck Finn]

By the way, I recently had my Canonet CLA'd (clean, lubricate, adjust) through a local camera shop. It cost $125 after they sent it out. Seals needed to be replaced. Stephen Gandy advertises this service for $100 plus shipping. This may give you some idea of what you get when you're buying a camera in the $20-$50 price range vs buying from a dealer who has already done the service.

[Huck Finn]

Final note on your question re the metering system not being through the lens. The meter uses a CdS cell & is actually an ingenious device that partially works off the distance as determined by the rangefinder. It is quite accurate. Remember that Leicas of this era had no metering at all! And the M6 did not have TTL metering when it first came out. That feature was added on later models. TTl metering is just a more recent technology than what was available in the '70s.

[back alley]

huck, your advice is excellent and i agree it with all of it!

joe

[Brian Sweeney]

The Minolta Hi-Matic 9, and Hi-Matic 7, are also worth a look at. These tend to go for much less than the Canonet, They are bigger, have a longer throw shutter release, but maintain metering when used in manual mode. The Canonet meter turns off in manual mode. The Hi-Matic 7 and 9 operate "uncoupled", give an EV reading that must be manually set in. The lens on my Minolta Hi-Matic 9 seems a little sharper than my Canonet QL17.

[Duncan Ross]

A quick note about the Himatic 7; be careful with electronic flash - I blew the electrics on one by plugging in a modern flash. I should have stuck to my flashbulbs!

Also consider the batteries, many of these '70s rangefinders use mercury batteries that are hard to replace.

[HelenB]

Originally posted by Huck Finn
... And the M6 did not have TTL metering when it first came out. That feature was added on later models. TTl metering is just a more recent technology than what was available in the '70s.

Huck, the M6 has always had TTL metering, as did the M5 (introduced in 1971) as well as the CL (introduced in 1973).

Best,
Helen

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by Brian Sweeney
The Canonet meter turns off in manual mode. .

Just to add a comment on this. While it's true that the Canonet meter turns off in manual mode, you can still meter. Since it's shutter priority in "automatic" mode, you set the shutter speed & the camera selected aperture is displayed in the viewfinder. Having metered in this manner, you can simply adjust the aperture setting to override it if you choose to underexpose/overexpose relative to the meter's recommendation. Or you can set the aperture to the meter's recommendation & you now have both aperture & shutter speed at the metered setting. You can then vary either from there.

The key is that the metered aperture setting is displayed unlike some other "automatic" systems of the time. A nice feature of this system as well is that the aperture settings are stepless in automatic setting, so you can fine tune your settings with it, changing your settings by adjusting shutter speed.

One other exceptional feature of the Canonet is that it has automatic compensating framelinesfor the parallax view. I believe that it is the only fixed focal length rangefinder camera do this. This is an enormous advantage in composing your pictures.

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by HelenB
Huck, the M6 has always had TTL metering, as did the M5 (introduced in 1971) as well as the CL (introduced in 1973).

Best,
Helen

Thank you for correcting me, Helen. I don't know where my mind was. It is TTL FLASH metering that was added on later versions of the M6. Sorry about the error.

[Brian Sweeney]

Most of the upper end fixed-Lens RF's of the 60s and 70s have automatix parallax compensation; typically if it has an F1.8, F1.7, or F1.4 you can count on the parallax compensation. My Minolta Hi-Matic 9, Hi-Matic E, Konica S2, Yashica Lynx 14, Yashica GSN, Canonet QL17, Balda Automatic, etc... all have parallax compensation. The cheaper ones haves fixed compensation lines. And, for whatever reason, Nikon chose fixed compensation for the S3-2000.

[SolaresLarrave]

Huck, what I have done with my trusty Canonet when I want to override the metering and intentionally over- or underexpose is easier than turning the ring: the little camera has EL. Among the current Leica lineup, only the M7 has it, but both the Canonet and the Konica S2 have it. You "spotmeter" on another surface, lock the exposure, compose, focus and shoot.

This is a nice camera! I should take it out more often...

[JohnL]

Originally posted by Huck Finn

<snip>
It is TTL FLASH metering that was added on later versions of the M6.
<snip>
I really don't know much about Leicas, but I'm interested.
Does this mean that "M6 TTL"s have flash TTL metering, while "M6 classic"s have just regular TTL metering?
Thanks, John

[Huck Finn]

John, you are correct.

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by Brian Sweeney
Most of the upper end fixed-Lens RF's of the 60s and 70s have automatix parallax compensation; typically if it has an F1.8, F1.7, or F1.4 you can count on the parallax compensation. My Minolta Hi-Matic 9, Hi-Matic E, Konica S2, Yashica Lynx 14, Yashica GSN, Canonet QL17, Balda Automatic, etc... all have parallax compensation. The cheaper ones haves fixed compensation lines. And, for whatever reason, Nikon chose fixed compensation for the S3-2000.

Brian, thanks for educating me on this point. I knew but had forgotten that Konica had this feature, but I had no idea that there were a number of other models that had this as well. I have read repeatedly that this was a rare feature on compact rangefinders of its day.

[Brian Sweeney]

Huck,
It IS one of the only COMPACT rangefinders to have the parallax correction feature; most compacts had F2.8 lenses and fixed compensation lines. Olympus was big into this. Around 1970 most of the companies came out with Fast Compacts, auto exposure, and nice VF/RF with projected, parallax corrected finder lines. The Olympus RD, Minolta Hi-Matic E, Konica S3, and several others dropped in size and weight but put on a fast, F1.7 or F1.8, lens. These cameras tend to go for more these days than the full-size cameras that they replace. A Konica S3 goes for ~$150 when an S2 may fetch $25. If you do not mind the size, these older cameras are worth a look.

[Huck Finn]

Interesting info, Brian. Stephen Gandy has a nice discussion of these on cameraquest.com. He says that for every S3 that comes his way he sees 25 Canonets. So I guess that the laws of economics come into play when something is a rarity. The Konica had one of the best lenses you'll find on any camera, but its price today is probably as much a factor of its scarcity as it is of its quality. Stephen gives similar insights on the availability of others of that genre.