View Full Version : canon p or canon 7?
i was watching those cameras on the net last few weeks , and i find them very nice. unfortunately i have never seen one in serbia and prices would probably be crazy here. so i am wondering - what are differences apart from meter (i would not use it anyway). which is more reliable, has better vf/rf? and also what is lowest price it can be found.
thanks in advance
srdjan
back alley
12-30-2007, 12:55
canon p = sports car
canon 7 = station wagon
it depends on the ride you want...
Steve Bellayr
12-30-2007, 13:00
Caonon P: no meter. Canon 7 has a 50 year old meter. Does the meter work? How accurate? How long will it last? Go for the P!
Difficult to say; I happily use both, but may be P is to prefer.
sniki
nzeeman -- over the last few years, there have been a number of threads at RFF comparing the P and the 7. You can find them online via Google. Here's one such thread: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18096.html. Dante Stella (www.dantestella.com (http://www.dantestella.com)), Karen Nakamura (www.photoethnography.com (http://www.photoethnography.com)), and our own head bartender have written articles on both cameras. RFF member Sonnar2 also has articles on Canon rangefinders and lenses on his website.
I have both cameras, and they are solid, well-constructed, and fun to use w/ LTM lenses. Apart from the meter, the biggest difference between the two is the viewfinder. The P's finder is 1:1, and has framelines for 35, 50 and 100 mm lenses visible all the time. I wear glasses and find the 35 framelines hard to see, but the camera is a joy to use w/ the 50 and 100 mm lenses. The 7 has .85 magnification (or so), and switchable framelines for 35, 50, 85/100, and 135 lenses. I find the 35 mm framelines easier to see on the 7. Other differences: the 7 is slightly larger than the P, and slightly heavier; it's comparable in size to an M5, I've been told. The P is a little taller than a Leica MP, but otherwise comparable in terms of dimensions and weight. The 7 has no accessory shoe; the P does. The P has no shutter lock; the 7 does. One major consideration may be whether you intend to use an accessory viewfinder. If you do, go w/ the P.
My P has been CLA'd, and its shutter is very quiet, close to Leica M. I find it works v. well for street photography. I like to use my 7 for landscapes, where the switchable framelines are an asset.
I have no idea what prices are like for either camera in Europe, let alone Serbia, but here in the U.S. a clean P body can be had for between $250 and $300. The 7 is a little cheaper.
Good luck!
Mackinaw
12-30-2007, 14:23
As already mentioned, this topic has come up for discussion may times in RFF. Personally, I prefer the 7 to the P mainly because of it's viewfinder. The 7 uses projected framelines, like the Leica M, while the P uses reflected framelines. This means that P viewfinders, after 45+ years, can be a bit flary, while 7 viewfinders usually are sharp and clear, even today. Both are well constructed, quality 35mm cameras capable of taking excellent pictures
Jim B.
canon p = sports car
canon 7 = station wagon
it depends on the ride you want...
Joe,
Most people here want a station wagon with a 500HP engine!
We want it all. :D
What is the purpose of a shutter lock? I have never owned a 7.
OK I actually know, a lot of people wind cameras right after they shoot due to a nervous reflex, and they probably have a hard time leaving shutters unwound. I used to try to get students to avoid this behavior, and concentrate only on gentle smooth release of the shutter, without the jerking motion of a wind immediately.
I have never owned a 7, hopefully the lock is not easy to activate by accident.
I think you've got the general idea. I always assumed the shutter lock was to prevent the shutter from being triggered when stowing the camera in a bag, having experienced the nervous reflex you describe. I think it would be hard to activate the shutter lock by accident. I hardly ever use mine.
Kim Coxon
12-30-2007, 15:35
Canon VI-L = Race Car. :D
Kim
canon p = sports car
canon 7 = station wagon
it depends on the ride you want...
David Murphy
12-30-2007, 15:52
P - better made, good finders, good looks
7 - well made, fine camera, better finders, good deal (forget the meters -- they are a novelty at best), takes the Canon 50m F0.95 lens
Both cameras are really fantastic
Canon VI-L = Race Car. :D
Kim
I traded my "Race Car" for a Leica Standard.
Did I do well?
Here are some more golden oldie RFF threads on the comparative virtues of the P and the 7:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2049
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3103
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3830
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3372
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4931
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7252
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8195
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8110
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11611
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11943
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13452
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18017
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18096
There seems to have been a much more active buzz going at RFF 2 to 3 years ago over the P and the 7, but these threads still make interesting and informative reading.
Mackinaw
12-30-2007, 16:53
I have never owned a 7, hopefully the lock is not easy to activate by accident.
It takes a conscious effort to turn the shutter collar to the lock position, but I have managed to do so at the most inopportune moment. Overall, I think the shutter lock answers a question that nobody ever asked.
Jim B.
It takes a conscious effort to turn the shutter collar to the lock position, but I have managed to do so at the most inopportune moment.
Note that the P's shutter button also will lock if you set the collar between the A and R positions. All they did with the 7 was provide a mark and a clickstop detent.
So, the P is just as prone to "inopportune moments" of this sort. Or to look at it in a more positive way, if you think the shutter lock is a useful feature, the P already has a "stealth" version of it.
P - better made, good finders, good looks
7 - well made, fine camera, better finders, good deal (forget the meters -- they are a novelty at best), takes the Canon 50m F0.95 lens
Both cameras are really fantastic
Having had the covers off both, I'd say both are equally well-made. But I agree that the P is better finished, with more lustrous satin chrome and fanatically deep, glossy black enamel, even on places most people don't look.
Looking at the finish on a V/VI/P camera conjures up a very strong sense of shop rats who were very proud of their work and determined to prove that they didn't have to take a backseat to anyone in the quality department.
(The 7 is nicely, even handsomely finished, but doesn't quite convey the same sense of pride... on the outside. You still get it when you get the covers off and see the beautiful workmanship on the geartrains and levers, though.)
mr_phillip
12-31-2007, 04:25
The Canon P was Canon's entry-level model in the VI series, and was deliberately stripped-down in terms of features but, as has been mentioned, the build quality, fit and finish was absolutely to the highest level Canon could manage at the time. They're simple cameras, relatively compact and a pleasure to own and use (although the 35mm lines are at the edge of visibility even if you don't wear glasses).
The Canon 7 however was intended as a top-of-the-range, state-of-the-art rangefinder that took a huge amount of development effort from Canon's design team (headed by Masamichi Kakunodate). All of the new features resulted in a larger body, and a few compromises had to be made (like the deletion of an accessory shoe in the early models). As people have already mentioned, the build and finish isn't quite as heroic as the previous generation of Canon RFs, but it's still an excellently made camera.
What no-one here seems to have mentioned is that there were actually three different Canon 7 models. The first had a selenium meter and no accessory shoe (there was a clip-on Accessory Coupler that connected to the flash-sync socket but that's a rare find now, and was never a great solution anyway). This was a popular model and Canon shifted nearly 140,000 of the things.
In '65 Canon launched the 7s which had a (more accurate and reliable) CdS meter in place of the earlier selenium unit, and they even managed to squeeze an accessory shoe onto the top panel. Unfortunately sales of SLRs were overtaking rangefinders by this point and Canon made less than 16,000 7s bodies.
Lastly came the 7sZ in '67. This was a really minor update to the 7s, but it does benefit from a new finder system that corrected the ghost images and flair that the previous 7 models had been accused of suffering from under certain circumstances. There were less than 4000 7sZ models made so they're quite rare.
If you're looking for a 7 and actually want to use the meter (and if you ever intend to use accessory viewfinders or a flash) then try to find a 7s or 7sZ – just be aware that these are rarer models and can be expensive. If you want an earlier selenium Canon 7 I'd strongly recommend looking for one with a non-functioning meter as it'll save you money, and they were never the most accurate of meters anyway (and are unlikely to have improved with age).
My own personal choice however was the Canon P. There's a purity of purpose that comes from the stripped-down feature set, and that results in a more compact and beautiful design (to my tastes at least). Get a good one and you'll never want to part with it.
Mackinaw
12-31-2007, 04:43
Having had the covers off both, I'd say both are equally well-made. But I agree that the P is better finished, with more lustrous satin chrome and fanatically deep, glossy black enamel, even on places most people don't look.
I'm probably alone on this, but I consider the shiny chrome of the earliest models of the P (see Dechert, the finish of the P did change over its production run) to be overly garish. Almost like Canon took a clue from U.S. produced cars of the time and made cameras that were gaudy (the famous "chrome and fins" era of the late 1950's). I much prefer the more subtle chrome finish of the 7 series, looks classier to me.
Jim B.
KoNickon
12-31-2007, 05:26
I recently got a 7 and I don't think it cedes anything in terms of finish to the P. The switchable framelines of the 7 are moreover quite an achievement, and as a glasses wearer I prefer the lower magnification of the 7 over that of the P. (And on the meter readout I keep seeing that little number ".95" staring at me -- having seen gdi's great NYC nighttime pictures on another thread I fear I will need to get the Dream Lens at some point!)
Mackinaw
12-31-2007, 05:43
In the 7sZ this could never happen because the window is glued from the outside.
More than that, the meter window on the 7sZ has a "lip" which extends over the edge of the camera top plate preventing it from being pushed in.
Jim B.
ChrisPlatt
12-31-2007, 06:45
A 7 with a bum meter can be a real bargain.
Though not 1:1 some prefer the 7 finder over that of the P.
Chris
The P is right for people loving very straight cameras and forms. It was the only RF ever made with 1:1 finder and 35mm framelines, but when using eyeglasses the 7 is more comfortable with 35mm. The P is unbeatable with 50 and 100mm: Maybe they should have inserted a 85mm frame as well, but they didn't. Some people get disturbed by the 100mm frame anyway.
Opposite to the P, the 7 is for people who love lots of features and opportunities (except of using a seperate viewfinder).
My first Canon ever, after more than 20 years of photography, was the P. Possibly the camera is as old as I am. With the P I discovered the simplicity and beauty of rangefinder photography. The P has style - like a Leica. The 7 isn't quite just the same. A simple camera like the P keeps its class forever. Leica M2, Nikon S2, Contax II - you name it. The P is the cheapest and probably most reliable choice in this class.
The 7 misses most of it's style, but is still cheaper. Bad luck: A camera loaded with features like the 7 looks outdated 10 years later. The P is for fans and friends, the 7 is for users. It makes a great user camera with working meter.
The 7s and 7sZ are priced for collectors. There is no real reason why a 7s(Z) costs 2 or 3 times the price of a 7. As a user, go with the 7. The selenium meter of my 7 still works great in daylight and will never ask for a battery, in particular for a mercury cell (1.35v)
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Canon-P_ad.jpg
So keep your choice, it's a matter of style, and - like everything else in life - price!
regards, Frank
KoNickon
12-31-2007, 07:17
I know it detracts from the "simple" gestalt of the P, but mine came with the meter (and diffusor) -- still pretty accurate.
There are differing opinions regarding the meters on the 7 series. The (selenium) meter on my 7 works just fine, although it's not as sensitive in very low light situations. My understanding is that the cds cells on the 7s and 7sZ are not all that great, and fail more readily. If Brian Sweeney is reading this thread perhaps he can comment; I recall some posts of his from earlier threads expressing a preference for the meter on the 7.
There is no doubt, though, that a 7 w/ a dead meter can be a real bargain as a user. My impression is that clean 7 bodies these days are going for $200-250 w/ working meters.
mr_phillip
12-31-2007, 07:56
There is no doubt, though, that a 7 w/ a dead meter can be a real bargain as a user. My impression is that clean 7 bodies these days are going for $200-250 w/ working meters.
That's just the point I was trying to make earlier (although looking at my post I'm not sure it was clear).
Here in the UK Canon Ps and 7s (selenium) tend to sell for roughly the same price, with the 7s and 7sZ models commanding a premium (unless you get lucky and find a dealer who doesn't know the difference). The way to grab one of these cameras for bargain money is to go for a 7 with a non-working selenium meter: here at least they almost always seem to go for a fraction of the price of working examples, and it's debatable if it's really that much of a loss anyway.
Whatever model of Canon rangefinder you buy, provided it's in good shooting order, you're getting an exceptional rangefinder.
I recently got a 7 and I don't think it cedes anything in terms of finish to the P. The switchable framelines of the 7 are moreover quite an achievement, and as a glasses wearer I prefer the lower magnification of the 7 over that of the P. (And on the meter readout I keep seeing that little number ".95" staring at me -- having seen gdi's great NYC nighttime pictures on another thread I fear I will need to get the Dream Lens at some point!)
Yes the 0.95 monster is a great argument for any Canon 7. A Canon 7 is cheaper than a lens conversion to M-mount.
Although a 50/1.2 looks also great on a Canon P. And of course, the best and latest 50mm RF lens of Canon, the 50/1.4.
The selenium meter of my 7 still works great in daylight and will never ask for a battery, in particular for a mercury cell (1.35v)
The Se meter in my 7 still works great as well. In fact, all the Se meters in my cameras still function properly. I have a 1955 Zeiss Ikon Nettax, a Canon 7 and even the meter on the 1937 Contax III is still very light-sensitive (it only needs to be tuned). Also the Weston Master V is working great as is the dedicated Canon P meter.
ChrisPlatt
01-07-2008, 15:18
I got a good deal on a clean fixer Canon P from Pacific Rim Camera.
I sent it to Karl Bryan and he repaired it for a very reasonable price.
Chris
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