Summicron front element recoated by Arax, looks good. [Archive]

phototone

04-01-2005, 07:32

I just received back the front element from a Summicron 50mm f2 lens, that I sent Gevorg at Arax Photo in the Ukraine, for polishing and recoating.

I decided to try Gevorg, because I have ordered quite a few pieces of Kiev medium format equipment and lenses from him and have received excellent service, and he does offer recoating of lenses.

The only alternative was here in the USA, and it was so much higher, that I thought it was worth the risk. I think I remember the price as being over $250, for here in the USA.

He requested that I just send the element, not the whole lens, and it was easy to remove, as I have a lens spanner wrench to remove the front retaining ring, and I also have one of those little suction bulbs to lift the cell out. I wrapped it in cotton, and put it in an old Kodak screw-apart filter box, and wrapped that in bubble wrap and then put the whole thing in a much larger box.

Oh, I know you are wondering what the cost was. Polish and recoat front element, $30 + $8 shipping back to me.

I will test the lens out today, and give feedback on its performance. This lens had so many abraisions on the front coating that it looked like the moon, but it was obvious that they were coating scratches, and not deep (not into the glass). It now looks new!

Gene McCluney (Phototone)

rover

04-01-2005, 07:47

Wow, I will enjoy seeing some results from the "new" lens.

unsharp

04-01-2005, 08:06

Just now prices for M-Rokkors went up 50% :D

Anders

taffer

04-01-2005, 08:25

Are M-Rokkors specially prone to coating problems / cleaning marks ? :confused:

Btw Gene, thanks for sharing that, it the results come out nice, it's a great price for recoating and I guess he'll have more customers soon...

denishr

04-01-2005, 08:32

phototone

04-01-2005, 08:48

Gene, MANY THANKS FOR THIS INFO!
I've got the same problem with my collapsible Summicron 50/2. I'm in Croatia, so USA is too expensive - another guy in UK wanted about GBP 90 plus shipping - still a bit too high.

Please, shoot some test photos, and let us know about the results. Watch for the flare - does it flare less than before? Crispness, clarity? Bokeh? Any info about results will be appreciated!

As soon as you can confirm that it's better than before, mine will be mailed to Ukraine!!!

Thanks,

Denis

Well, Dennis,
As far as I was concerned, the lens was unusable in its previous condition, so any improvement will be good. I don't see any way that it could be any thing but vastly improved.

I have a few more that I intend to send. It can take a while to have done. I think it took about a month not counting shipping.

It would say that probably the only type of lens elements that could be re-coated on an economical basis would be "air-spaced" ones. I really doubt that they could polish and re-coat a cemented pair, such as found on many Leica lenses. The cemented pairs would have to be separated, re-coated and then re-cemented together, which would increase the complexity vastly. (Cemented pairs...refers to two or more glass elements that are bonded together with Canada Balsam to form one optical block)

Gene

rover

04-01-2005, 09:27

The coatings of the 28/2.8 M Rokkor is notorious for coating problems. Minolta used to recoat them, but does not any more. The 40/2 and 90/4 did not have the same problem.

taffer

04-01-2005, 13:21

Ahh, I see, I remember reading something about 28s and was just curious as if there was a problem with more lenses as well. Thx.

unsharp

04-02-2005, 00:35

Looking for a M-Rokkor 40mm I came across the info that the 28mm aften had coating (or glue/sealer?) problem. But the M-Rokkor range (28, 40, 90) are very good value for the money I understand.

Anders

Doug

04-02-2005, 12:22

Yes, I'd heard of (incipient) separation of cemented pairs of elements in the 28 Rokkor. Don't know about coating.

denishr

04-07-2005, 04:42

Well, following Gene's experience above, I dismantled my Summicron with hazy coating and shipped it off to Ukraine...

We'll see.... Hopefully, the flare will be reduced. It's a collapsible 50/2 Summicron, and I really like it for its compact size and "character". But, it was pretty darn useless outdoors or anywhere alse with strong light sources in the frame...

Denis

RObert Budding

04-08-2005, 01:55

Well? How are the images from your recoated lense?

Robert

phototone

04-08-2005, 06:02

I don't have any images scanned yet...however since I got the front element back from Arax, and installed it...I have to say, looking at my negatives with a loupe, that my collapsable LTM 50mm f2 Summicron appears to be one of the sharpest lenses I have in LTM. I notice no tendency to flare easily.

The new coating is multicoating. This may actually improve the tendency towards flare, although this lens is not particularly flare prone anyway in comparison to others ..

The rest of my lens was in excellent shape, including the coating on the back element, and no internal hazing, although I did clean each element, just to make sure.

Total cost including postage both ways (from USA) was about $50 USD. This was just the front element sent. Postage would have been more, thus raising total price, if I had sent the whole lens. No need to send lens, usually it is just the front element that is scratched in the coating.

I just sent off two more. Another 50mm Summicron front element (this seems to be common with that lens...scratched coating)..and a 90 Elmar f4 front element.

As a side note....the 50mm Summicrons that I have, have been with me for many years, and have been set aside as unsatisfactory due to the severe coating abrasions on the front element. This is just like getting brand new lenses. It is very exciting.

Gene McCluney (Phototone)

Ed Schwartzreic

04-11-2005, 07:07

I usually post on the R-D1 forum here, but was reading this one with interest. I have an 8-element 35/2 Summicron which developed fungus on an inner element. John van Stelten removed the fungus but said the element was etched (? coating, ? glass) and he could do nothing about it. The lens is o/w Mint.

I had the following email contact with ARAX:

Hello Ed.

Responding to your e-mail of 09.04.2005.

ES> Q: I have an 8-element 35 Summicron which had fungus on an
ES> inner elemt. The fungus was removed, but the element is still
ES> etched (? coating versus the glass itself). Can you do anything
ES> with such a lens?

Yes, it should be polished, then multi-coated for $15 for surface or
$30 for one glass independent from the lens size. You should send the
glass only without any metallic parts.

Sincerely
Gevorg Vartanyan

This is more than just unscrewing a front element. I could ask DAG to take it apart, but does the whole thing sound reasonable?

Appreciate comments.

Ed

phototone

04-11-2005, 10:20

Yes, this sounds reasonable, however if you do not feel that you can dis-mantle your lens, perhaps you could have Gevorg or his technician do this for an additional fee. It would not hurt to ask.

Myself, I have had no problems taking the front elements off my lenses, etc.

Phototone

Ed Schwartzreic

04-11-2005, 10:55

Unfortunately, the affected surface(s) may be on cemented doublets. This is my latest exchange:

ES> What happens if the affected element(s) are part of a
ES> cemented pair? The 8-element Summicron is a symmetrical Gaussian
ES> design with 2 cemented pairs.

We can work with it, but the risk of braking is too high. If you agree
take the risk, we can do it. The price will increase only for $5 for
each cemented lens.

Then spoke to DAG who said that he would be happy to dismantlle the lens, and his thought is, even if the fungus is one one surface of a cemented pair, that surface could still be recoated.

Ed

phototone

04-11-2005, 17:45

My thinking is this. You have to determine the value of the lens in good condition. If the value of the lens will be exceeded by the cost of the repairs, then it may just pay you to try to acquire another identical lens in good shape. There are PLENTY of 50mm f2 Summicrons, 50mm Summitars, etc. You can get a good one for a fair price, as these were made in relatively large quantities for Leica lenses.

Example....one can have a 50mm f2 Summar front cemented pair dismantled, polished, coated recemented and assembled by a firm in England for several hundred dollars, but why?...when you could probably find one in good shape for $200 or less. A Summar is neither a very good lens, or rare. It has its qualities though, but razor sharpness is not one of them.

Now, consider that having Gevorg at Arax handle the work is going to cost you a fraction of this, and there are possibilities that heretofore didn't exist in economically "restoring" lenses that do not have a high enough value to have repaired otherwise.

I am sure Gevorg could dis-assemble the lens for an additional fee. After all, the technicians used by Gevorg are in the lens manufacturing business, and are trained in optical manufacture and assembly. I would guess, considering the economy there, that they relish "outside" "extra" work for ready cash, and will do the best job possible.

There are some very fine lenses coming new from Kiev these days for medium format cameras.

Phototone

Ed Schwartzreic

04-13-2005, 05:12

I've decided to send the whole lens to Gevorg, as suggested. He is quite willing to do this and see what reconditioning is feasible. Thanks for the help, and I'll reply about this as things develop.

This is not a 50/2 but a 35/2 and the fungus is on inner elements, not the easier-to-remove front elelmet of the various 50/2's.

Ed

Canon Junkie

04-13-2005, 06:00

This seems like very reasonable (if not downright cheap) cost for this. I am glad to see it as an option and will dig around for lenses I have long burried in the back of my closet as worthless.

rotzbremse

04-15-2005, 07:25

Hi Gene,
I have just joined this Fprum today. Could you please post the mailing address for Gevorg. Also, if I am not an experienced camera repair person, would it better if I asked one to remove the lens element for me? Thanks.

Raid Amin

I just received back the front element from a Summicron 50mm f2 lens, that I sent Gevorg at Arax Photo in the Ukraine, for polishing and recoating.

I decided to try Gevorg, because I have ordered quite a few pieces of Kiev medium format equipment and lenses from him and have received excellent service, and he does offer recoating of lenses.

The only alternative was here in the USA, and it was so much higher, that I thought it was worth the risk. I think I remember the price as being over $250, for here in the USA.

He requested that I just send the element, not the whole lens, and it was easy to remove, as I have a lens spanner wrench to remove the front retaining ring, and I also have one of those little suction bulbs to lift the cell out. I wrapped it in cotton, and put it in an old Kodak screw-apart filter box, and wrapped that in bubble wrap and then put the whole thing in a much larger box.

Oh, I know you are wondering what the cost was. Polish and recoat front element, $30 + $8 shipping back to me.

I will test the lens out today, and give feedback on its performance. This lens had so many abraisions on the front coating that it looked like the moon, but it was obvious that they were coating scratches, and not deep (not into the glass). It now looks new!

Gene McCluney (Phototone)

phototone

04-15-2005, 08:51

Go to the website

http://www.araxfoto.com/

and contact him through that.

He has specific instructions for sending repair items to avoid any customs charges.
He will detail this to you in an email.

Gene

denishr

05-24-2005, 14:41

Well, after about 6 weeks, I got the front element of my Summicron back. It looks very nice - like new... Actually, better than new, since it now has a better coating (more durable) than the original. :)

I took a few quick snaps on Efke 100, souped it in Rodinal, and the results are satisfactory. I tried several shots with strong backlight, and I'm pleased to say that in this regard the lens is much better now. I'll be shooting more with this lens, and will definitely have a better opinion whether anything has gone "wrong" with it during this procedure, but the first results look quite OK. In short, it was practically useless outdoors in bright light, whereas now I can't see any flaring and serious reduction of contrast...

Attached are two shots - first is one of the worst flare examples with this lens prior to recoating, and the second is my son, taken today with newly recoated front element, in roughly similar situation (strong backlight). Proof is in the pudding :)

Denis

rover

05-24-2005, 14:42

#2 is very nice indeed.

back alley

05-24-2005, 14:56

big difference, looks good.

joe

Doug

05-24-2005, 15:48

So, hmmm, wondering if it was worth the trouble? :angel:

Ed Schwartzreic

05-27-2005, 03:20

denishr

05-30-2005, 23:55

Well, I finally did some more shooting - color negative stuff, on consumer film, I think Fuji or something...
Lots of backlight, glaring sun, etc., etc...

Anyway, no flare or ghosting to speak of. I used a skylight filter and a lens hood - generic vented one I got from "Heavystar" on ebay...

Two shots attached are characteristic of lighting situation. Before recoating those shots would have been practically unusable.

The color might be a bit off, due to 1-hour lab scan :)

Denis

phototone

05-31-2005, 06:37

I too, recently received back a couple of front elements from older Leica lenses polished and recoated through Arax, and as always I am quite happy with the results. The front element probably is the most critical for coating, due to its position.

I now wonder what benefit I might get from having the front element coated on an otherwise uncoated optic.

phototone

05-31-2005, 06:38

I would like to add, that I think the modern multicoating that Arax provides is probably much, much harder than the coatings Leica used in the 1950's and 1960's.

phototone

05-31-2005, 06:42

I just got back my recoated 35 Summicron from Gevorg, Because of the complexity of the lens, I had to send the whole thing to Kiev for them to dismantle. His technicians apparently did not like to do this--it involved opening 2 metal frames to remove uncemented pairs--but what was returned to me has mint optics, and a brief testing wide open indicates the familiar 8-element 35/2 fingerprint is intact. It seems like a major success in revitalizing what is these days a very expensive Leitz lens.

Thanks to this forum for the information to make this possible.

Ed

Do you mean "uncemented pairs" or "cemented pairs"? I have been wondering if Arax could handle lenses that had cemented pairs? They would have to be uncemented to be polished and coated, then re-cemented.

What were the charges for your work? Did he recoat all the elements?

Ed Schwartzreic

06-06-2005, 02:27

No, they were uncemented.

Ed

ghost

08-09-2006, 13:56

is the front element all you need to, or can, send to have recoated? i've put it off forever, but i want to bring a canon 28mm back to life.

peter_n

08-09-2006, 16:31

is the front element all you need to, or can, send to have recoated? i've put it off forever, but i want to bring a canon 28mm back to life.I'm giving this a bump because I'm interested in the answer too.

raid

08-13-2006, 10:39

I am considering sending Gevork a Summar, a Summarit, and a Summaron to have the front element recaoted and also to have the inside cleaned for each lens. I just requested an estimate of the cost from ARAX. I may send more lenses, but first I need to hear back from Gevork. None of the three lenses is really problematic, but I also would like a perect lens whenever possible.

Raid

Ash

08-13-2006, 10:52

Arax medium format cameras look quite nice as well... I'll have to keep an eye on that site.

johne

08-13-2006, 11:08

I endorse this site without reservation. I have been most pleased with my transformed 50'crom.
Johne

@Denishr. Love the two color shots! Wonderful sharpness but the bokah is also excellent IMHO.

raid

08-14-2006, 16:21

I got an email back; it will cost $25/lens for cleaning and reassembly, and it will cost $30/lens for recoating. His main concern is the presence of any metal parts holding the glass elements.

mac_wt

10-03-2006, 03:29

On page 1 of this thread, someone suggested the 28mm M-rokkor as a good candidate for this type of repair. Did anyone ever contact Arax about that specific lens?

Wim

jamiewakeham

10-03-2006, 03:58

Ash - they are very nice! I'll scan and post something when I get a chance...

My only quibble about the whole Arax system is that the bokeh of the Arsat 80/2.8 is somewhat unpleasant.

Jamie

phototone

10-04-2006, 11:17

Some classic lenses have cemented pairs as first elements. If this is the case, the elements have to be separated, I would think, and this is a specialized task. Also, some classic lenses have the front elements held together with a knurled flange that is "rolled" over the element in manufacture. This has to be "cut" off in a lathe to separate the elements for recoating. Don't know if Arax technicians are able to do this.

In regards the recoating of "all" elements. It is usually only the front element that has suffered coating damage from cleaning. Then possibly the rear element, but I have never experienced any lens elements other than the front one needing polishing and re-coating. The internal elements do require cleaning, but you can do this while you are waiting for your front element to be sent back to you from polishing and recoating.

digitalintrigue

11-16-2007, 18:49

Is Arax still offering this service? Their website under 'repairing' now says "We NOT work with 35mm cameras and lenses, sorry."

rulnacco

05-23-2009, 05:05

Arax is out of the the lens recoating business. I e-mailed Gevorg earlier this week, and here is his reply:

Unfortunately we no longer offer the polishing and recoating service.
Arsenal factory in Kiev sold all machines which works with optics.

I'm very sorry for bad news.

Damn!

peter_n

05-23-2009, 05:11

digitalintrigue's post is from 2007. They stopped recoating a couple of years ago. A pity, they were very good.

bawang

05-23-2009, 06:06

I got exactly the same reply.

peter_n

05-23-2009, 07:39

Don't jump to conclusions. Gevorg Vartanyan at Arax did excellent work, DAG used to send all his recoating jobs to Kyiv and commented to me about how good Gevorg was. Just because a service is inexpensive and in a foreign country doesn't mean it's crap.

One thing I liked about Gevorg is that he knew his limitations. He would ask you to send only the element that required coating and not the whole lens assembly because he's an optics guy pure and simple, not a lens technician. As far as I know Arax is flourishing and they've shut down for summer vacation.

chippy

05-23-2009, 18:52

bawang

05-23-2009, 19:09

I sent him an email asking the question, but he never replied. It remains a mystery.

rulnacco

05-27-2009, 12:14

After being disappointed by Arax's discontinuance of lens recoating (see above; like Bawang, I also sent a followup e-mail asking if Gevorg knew where I might send my lens to for recoating and got no answer), I did some checking around. Lo and behold, I found this firm, which I had never seen mentioned on any photographic forum:

www.optil.co.uk (http://www.optil.co.uk)

And even more amazingly, they are located only a few miles from my home in South Croydon!

So I popped in today and chatted with the two older gentlemen running the firm. They were very pleasant, let me peek around a bit (fascinating), had a look at my 5cm Summicron and were positive they could take care of the few scratches in the front coating & the more extensive coating wear on my 9cm collapsible Elmar.

They stated that their service is recommended by Leica, and their website lists a very impressive set of other clients. They told me they could polish and apply a hard single coating to front element of the lenses (all I really want done), that they would colour-match the coating, and that it would cost me a mere £52 per surface if I brought them the elements only, and £62 if they had to disassemble the lenses themselves. They said it might take as much as three weeks, as they waited until they had a batch of optics that needed coating before they put them all together into the chamber.

They told me that they also manufacture lenses to specification. Who knows what kind of surveillance optics the secret services have had them fabricate, lol.

It's obviously not quite as cheap as Gevorg's service was, but it looks extremely promising and is still very reasonably priced. When I get the 35 Summaron I just won on eBay up to snuff so I've still got a walking-around lens handy (the prism in the eyes is out of alignment), I'm gonna drop off the Summicron and let them have a go. I'll try to report back on the results.

chippy

05-27-2009, 18:16

thanks for posting that info rulnacco, its always handy to have a source for these...

there is a company in Tasmania (Longman Optical) that does them too, also things like beam splitters, ND filters, mirrors and a heap of other things..at least they used too recoat the lenses, i am sure they still do, it used to cost about A$70 per surface, i dont know if their prices have gone up since, possibly have

http://www.longmanoptical.com.au/page/products.html#optical