View Full Version : Just got an M2 : keep or trash?
Greetings to all,
About a week ago I asked you if I should be worried about decementing on this M2 I found on photo.net [ see http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51129 ]
At the time I only had pictures but yesterday I received the camera. Boy I understand now why some many of you love these vintage Leica's. The thing is a beauty!
However I have more questions and if you have the time I'd like honest answers :)
The seller told me the camera did not need service. I guess his standards are pretty low because after 5 minutes here is what I found, there may be more :
- Golden droplets but I understand this is OK so I can live with that.
- The RF is totally out of whack vertically, I did not check for focus but it needs a serious adjustment that's for sure.
- It is very hard to mount and remove a lens on this body, I have to use a lot of force and sometimes if I use a LTM adapted lens it's the lens that unscrews and the adapter stays locked in the camera mount.
- At low speeds the second shutter curtain does not travel all the way. I can see the seam protuding about 3mm from the left hand side of the chamber.
- The VF is a bit dim, has a lot of dust as smudges and needs good cleaning.
Besides that all is fine :D The RF patch is OK, speeds sound good, action is smooth as butter, cosmetically it's nice.
I know Gerry Smith will ask me $200 to $300 to fix all this. I paid the camera $750 with all the shipping cost (it comes from Australia) taxes at the border and all. The price is a bit high I hear you say but remember I was buying a camera that was said to be fine!
I have a return privilege for a full refund, but the seller told me he agrees to split the cost of servicing in case that's what I choose.
What would you do? Keep it or return it? This is my first M2 so I really do not know what to expect.
Thanks a lot for your time and help!
Philippe.
Kim Coxon
12-20-2007, 07:15
Bearing in mind the cost of the camera and the fact that you will have to pay half the cost of the repairs, I would return it. I am sure you will find an equal or better one for the price. You have found a number of faults and it may well be that the tech will find more once he stsrts work. If the seller pays the full bill, fair enough but otherwise I wouldn't take the risk.
Kim
Greetings to all,
About a week ago I asked you if I should be worried about decementing on this M2 I found on photo.net [ see http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51129 ]
At the time I only had pictures but yesterday I received the camera. Boy I understand now why some many of you love these vintage Leica's. The thing is a beauty!
However I have more questions and if you have the time I'd like honest answers :)
The seller told me the camera did not need service. I guess his standards are pretty low because after 5 minutes here is what I found, there may be more :
- Golden droplets but I understand this is OK so I can live with that.
- The RF is totally out of whack vertically, I did not check for focus but it needs a serious adjustment that's for sure.
- It is very hard to mount and remove a lens on this body, I have to use a lot of force and sometimes if I use a LTM adapted lens it's the lens that unscrews and the adapter stays locked in the camera mount.
- At low speeds the second shutter curtain does not travel all the way. I can see the seam protuding about 3mm from the left hand side of the chamber.
- The VF is a bit dim, has a lot of dust as smudges and needs good cleaning.
Besides that all is fine :D The RF patch is OK, speeds sound good, action is smooth as butter, cosmetically it's nice.
I know Gerry Smith will ask me $200 to $300 to fix all this. I paid the camera $750 with all the shipping cost (it comes from Australia) taxes at the border and all. The price is a bit high I hear you say but remember I was buying a camera that was said to be fine!
I have a return privilege for a full refund, but the seller told me he agrees to split the cost of servicing in case that's what I choose.
What would you do? Keep it or return it? This is my first M2 so I really do not know what to expect.
Thanks a lot for your time and help!
Philippe.
I would return it, obviously the camera is not ok and after the cost of a cla it would be even more expensive. I say send it back, and stick a want to buy here!
photogdave
12-20-2007, 07:26
Will you have to pay the shipping cost back to Australia? If not send it back.
A great example of why I always cringe at buying equipment sight unseen. My local camera store has a nice M2 that's been sitting on the shelf for months at $800 with 30 day warranty! Send this one back and PM me - I'll go snap some photos of this M2 for you and ask them to hold it if you like.
MCTuomey
12-20-2007, 07:33
I'll third that thought. Return it, patiently locate another, here or at a reliable commercial seller (popflash, keh, golden touch/sherry krauter, to name a few). Your seller is deceptive or ignorant. Either way, you suffer for it.
Wow 6 views and 5 replies already. Love you guys!
The consensus seems to be : return it. Erik I also thought about Youxin, in fact I emailed him before I received the camera and he seems to be a very nice guy.
If he quotes me say $100 to fix the camera would it be more of a keeper?
digitalintrigue
12-20-2007, 07:40
Second vote for Youxin.
How are the cosmetics?
Cosmetics are OK. There are not meter marks, only a 1/2 in. brightmark above the door and two tiny dings next to it. Nothing I would worry about. The vulcanite is original and there's a tiny bit missing next to the lens mount but you have to look close. The black paint on the door is... well... 50 years old!
I am very worried about the lens mount though. I could not find someone describing the same problem that I have. It's really hard!
SolaresLarrave
12-20-2007, 07:52
Bear in mind that Youxin will be able to do a CLA, but not the kind of repair your camera may need. I'd say... return it with a thorough report of the reasons you're not satisfied. Whatever the cost of shipping it back, it'll be lower than the repair.
On the other hand, you can try with Don Goldberg, who may do something for you for about $200 (like the technician you mentioned).
Take care! :)
thomasw_
12-20-2007, 07:53
I'd error on the side of caution and send it back. Weigh a doubt against a certainty. You do need a CLA if you are to be able to use the M2, which, at minimum is going to be about 150 US when you include shipping there/back. But it may be more, much more if the speeds need resetting or some other issue with the VF, etc.. Yet, it is certain you will pay a fixed sum to return it and get your payment returned in full. Consider the return shipping a relatively inexpensive "lesson", and count yourself fortunate your seller will do the return.
Then buy a M2 in better condition; I think the one Dave is referring to is at Leo's on Granville St. in Vancouver? I have seen and handled it; I can recommend that M2.
Return it...I bought a beater M2 from Germany at a great price. It will not win any beauty contests, but mechanically it is sound.
I sent Youxin a DS M3 that still had the L seal, along with a IIIc which needed a CLA. He did a wonderful job and I had both cameras back within 10 days. The finders are super clean, the shutters wonderful. The cost was probably half of what others would charge. The IIIc got a new cover, as the original one came apart quickly during the disassembly process. I would recommend Youxin to anyone.
In your case, though, there are better options out there...return it and treat this as a lesson learned.
Cheers,
AJ
BigSteveG
12-20-2007, 08:11
Picked up my M2 for about $800 USD. Great condition. The VF needs some interior cleaning. Seller offered to take it back. Kept it anyway.
BigSteveG
12-20-2007, 08:12
If the seller won't take it back file a dispute w/ the CC company!!!
laptoprob
12-20-2007, 08:35
Problem with cases like these is the shipping. Can be quite costly. So does the seller offer to refund both shipping charges as well?
Then I'd return it. Otherwise it depends...
I could sell you my black M2. Just serviced, but no beauty contest winner.
like2fiddle
12-20-2007, 08:38
Considering all the questions surrounding the actual condition of this M2, it seems expensive to me. If you are patient and do some searching, you will be able to find a good deal. A year or so ago I sold a really nice button rewind M2 that had just returned from a full CLA at Sherry Krauter's to a fellow RFF member for less than the price you mentioned above.
If the droplets do not indicate separation, the problems are all fixable and typical.
Youxin Ye would charge you US 80 + shipping.
Still the amount you paid is too much. I guess, for me it would depend on
cosmetics, i.e. how does the camera look once it is mechanically fixed.
No dings and major scratches, than it is worth what you paid + YY CLA.
Roger: the M2 I bought from you is one of my favorites :)
Roland.
For $750 you would expect that the camera would be free of major flaws. However, it is a 50 year old mechanical contraption.
- The "golden" drops in te finder is most likely either dust or "separation" of prism.It should be OK, and a good cleaning of the surfaces, particularly of the sec ondary mirror should brighten up the viewfinder.
- The "dragging" shutter curtain, very common on M's that have been sitting idle for a long time. Usually only requires an adjustment and a "lube" job. Unless the cutrtains are pinholed or dried out, that should fix it.
-The stiff mount. This is something that is quite common on older M's. The previous owner might have been someone who only used one lens and really never took it off! The mount will "wear" a bit if you use multiple lenses and slowly become easier to remove or mount them. The sticky adapter ring is nomal! Leica made these to be quite stiff in action. This is why the older back caps had the three small 1/2 moon shaped "bumps". You simply unscrewed the LTM lens and put the back of the cap over the mount and turned it.
- The rangefinder alignment is simple and would be part of the CLA. Send it to Gerry and have him give you a written quote on the CLA and pass that on to the seller. To be fair, he should absorb at least 50% if not 75% of that cost. This depends to some extent on how he described it in the ad too.
As for price and value, provided you got the seller to agree to a split in the service ( say $200 from Gerry at Kinderman) you would end up with a $850 M2. Not super cheap, but not a bad price either. Particularly as you take into consideration that you now have a fully CLA's M2!
Whenever I buy a camera, particularly a M2/M3 I add $100-150 to my "cost" and that is a CLA. ANY M-camera (M2/M3/M4) is going to be at laeast 40 years old and unless the previous owner can show documentation that it has been serviced in the last couple of years, always add your own CLA cost. Stores will freely wave 30 days return or warranty, but it can often be frustrating to try to collect - and some stores are quite "free" with statements like "Oh, it was serviced by our own technician so there is no documentation".
Once you have had your camera serviced, it should be fine for the next 10-15 years, if you shoot with it regularly. So, it was a bit more than you bargained for, but it is now yours and that's what counts!
I sold a beautiful M2 earlier this year with a full CLA from DAG for $700. Came with some cool accessories too (Luigi wrist strap, Gordy wrist strap, meter, etc). I say send it back and keep looking.
Mike Richards
12-20-2007, 09:57
I' in the minority and agree with Tom A. No need to return a cosmetically good M2. The "show stopper" seems to be the shutter. I'd try to wind and release the shutter 10 times at every shutter speed to see if it loosens up -- perhaps even do this twice. If that works, you can run a test roll of film through it to evaluate for light leaks, exposure, focus, etc. I did this with a used M4-2 that I bought and it brought it back to life. Works perfectly and did not need a CLA. The other problems you have with the M2 seem to be fixable with some minor attention under $100 -- some lube and minor adjustments.
Hello folks,
I thought I would post a follow-up on this. Thank you very much for all the replies and to all who PM'ed me. Love RFF!
It's still quite hard to me to make up my mind about this so I decided to give Gerry Smith a call yesterday. He said I could send him the M2 and he would have a look at it. The camera is on its way, I should have his estimate soon and then I will take a decision.
As Tom said I believe that whenever a camera this old is purchased it would need a CLA anyways, even if purchased from a store. Also this particuliar M2 has some good things : cosmetics are nice, speeds are OK, VF patch is nice and contrasty... if the seller pays for a good portion of the servicing I might keep it. It all depends on what Gerry will say now.
I'll keep you posted, with some pics when possible :)
Thanks again and Merry Xmas to all!
sepiareverb
12-21-2007, 05:10
Good luck with it. My M5 was cosmetically beautiful but needed a lot of TLC. I jumped in with it, and I wouldn't trade it now for anything. Seems like all the effort (and $!) I put into putting it back to perfect was almost like having owned it for thirty years. I'm quite attached.
kalokeri
12-21-2007, 05:21
Good luck with your M2. Hopefully a cla is all it does need.
Just as a side remark: I bought my M2 which is a little beaten for a decent price and took it to Leica - as I´m living in Germany it´s just a day´s journey. They fixed the shutter, cleaned the rangefinder and adjusted everything. The service wasn´t cheap, it was as much as the price I had payed for the camera, but I found it worthwhile. The camera still has scratches and damages but works very fine and very smooth since the service.
Thomas
hans voralberg
12-21-2007, 13:08
If CLA is ~$100, keep it. Yes you pay ~850 but you have an M2 now to use, that's the cost to have it now rather than sit and wait for god know how long before a better one shows up
LeicaTom
12-21-2007, 13:39
Return it, there`s much better condition M2`s out there for that price, that are not as beat up mechanically, that lens mount problem is a big one, more than likely the reason they sold it in the first place
Tom
Well here's how I do the math. There is a button rewind M2 in EX condition at KEH right now. It's $700. They'll charge me $50 for shipping. And I'll have to pay 14% taxes at the border. Total cost : $855. Knowing KEH there are some chances that the camera would still need a CLA soon anyways so I'll add $100 for Youxin including shipping back and forth.
Total : $955.
The M2 that I sent to Kindermann I paid $750 including shipping AND taxes. If Gerry tells me it costs $250 to fix it and CLA, plus shipping, Ontario taxes and so on that would be $300. I intend to ask a $200 refund to the seller of this M2.
Total net to me : $850. And I would have a beautiful M2 serviced by one of the bests Leica tech in North America. How does it sound? Not too bad I think.
I know I could find an M2 here on RFF for cheaper than that, I don't know how much FrankS sold his a few weeks ago but that was certainly quite a deal. But how long would I have to wait?
Kim Coxon
12-21-2007, 15:04
In the end, I think it boils down to what Gerry says. If he can give the camera a clean bill of health after a CLA and you can get a reasonable amount from the seller, it seems natural to keep it. If he indentifies more problems or there is any difficulty in getting a fair sum from the seller then I would send it back. I would keep an open mind until you receive Gerry's report.
Kim
hans voralberg
12-21-2007, 15:07
Unless somebody gonna post the ads in the next minute, you dont know, it's opportunity cost. You want a good value body in xxx days, or taking pics with that M2 now ?
Phillipe - as you probably know Gerry is excellent - I've had 3 Leica's CLA'd by him and he's a super person to work with - and great work.
Good luck whatever the outcome
David
I'd return it. I have seen many M2's in better condition at much lower prices, even considering possible CLA.
Greetings,
I thought I would post a last update to the story. I just got a call and an email from Gerry Smith and it turns out this M2 is worse than I thought, see Gerry's report below. It is then going back to the seller. Lesson learned : never buy online unless the source has an excellent reputation. I am thinking KEH, PopFlash and especially the super sellers here on RFF!
I must really add that Gerry is a super-duper person to deal with. He called me from home, it was a day off for him but as I said I was short of time to return the camera he looked at it and we spent quite a while on the phone. He is a true gentleman.
Now I am looking for another Leica. The quest never ends... for me it seems.
Happy new year everyone!
Philippe.
Hello Philippe,
Here is the report on your camera body.
Camera requires gen. clean compl. lubrication readjust all functions to specifications.
Clean fungus from rangefinder optics best possible,
Camera body collimation is out of tolerance,(suspect impact damage to lens flange)
lens flange has small indentations,Lenses very stiff and rough to mount on body.
Flange may need to be replaced and machined to tolerance.
Reasemble camera check all functions.
Lab. $285.00
Lens flange App. $125.00
Shipping app. $15.00
Plus applicable sales tax.
Note rangefinder has signs of separation, may not get any worse.
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