6x9 Folder Recommendations?

[Way]

Since getting my Super Isolette, the folder bug has bitten pretty hard and I'm now looking for a 6x9 folder. Any recommendations from you knowledgable folks? Good optics, reliabilty and probably a rangefinder would be nice.

[LazyHammock]

I just received my Voigtlander Bessa II back from service with Jurgen Kreckel. It is a fantastic piece of machinery, a little heavy but the operation is wonderful and well suited to a left-hander. The lens (color-skopar) is very sharp and rivals some of the best in MF. The rangefinder is a little squinty although most rangefinders seem that way after using Leica Ms. I use an accessory Kontur 6x9 finder which is a delight, allowing shooting with both eyes open. This has been my only experience with 6x9 but would not hesitate to recommend the Bessa II.
Nick

[Borghesia]

Hello Way, the only 6x9 folder I have is the Super Ikonta 6x9. An apparatus with a victorian look, certainly not a 20th century design.
But it has a coupled (!) rangefinder and I was surprised that my pre-war version still works accurate without a CLA.
It makes beautifull pictures, with great depth, soft backgrounds and sharp in focus subjects.
Still I am not very used to shoot with the 6x9 format, but that's because all my other MF camera's are for the 6x6 size. I have only used this camera just a few times since I bought it, my simple Isolette II is in my bag almost all the time, because of its smallness, being less delicate, and my preference for the square format.
There must be a wide choice of good 6x9 folders (Bessa's), my Ikonta example was excellent and relatively cheap (125 euro's). Be aware of the technical condition of such a camera, it's best to hold such a camera in your own hands, testing everything hinge and bolt, diminishing risks.
Here a sample photo made with my Super Ikonta :
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=80217841&size=o

[kuzano]

I like the Voigtlander offerings in old folders. I had an early Bessa RF (rangefinder) with a Heliar lens. The rangefinder mechanism was the same as the later Bessa II. But for a while the Bessa RF's were a lot less money than a nice Bessa II. Also, unlike the Bessa II, there was an internal mask (removable) which allowed me to shoot 6X4.5 and get 15 frames from a roll of 120. The cameras that offer this kind of option (not many) have two ruby windows on the back door, with slides to close them.

After I sold the RF, I found a rather rare combo. A Bessa 1, with a Color Skopar lens, a compur shutter (1/500th) and the internal mask (getting the mask with any of these is a real find). That camera was a real find. While it was front cell focusing, it had a slightly sturdier set of front standards than either of the two RF models, which made focusing a bit of a chore, but more reliable.

The Bessa RF had four lens choices. The Bessa 1, typically came with a Vaskar lens, and the Bessa II had 3 or four choices.

Know one thing about all folders in the 40's and 50's. They often came with a consumer or department store lens for the masses, an upgrade lens for the knowledgeable but frugal, and a high quality lens for the monied gentry and professionals. The lenses were triplets, 4 element and 5 element.

The Vaskar and Helomars were triplets, The Color Skopars were 4 element and later examples were coated better, and the Heliars were 5 element. There is one lens that puts a Bessa II in the over $2000 category. It uses Lanthanium (spelling?) in it's makeup.

This is true of many mfr folders. High end Zeiss Ikons used Zeiss glass, while middle of the road used Nettar.

Also, a good 6X9 folder that has been well cared for will take very nice pictures even with the Vaskar and Helomar lenses.

In nice condition:
Bessa RF's are selling for $250 to 500 depending on the lens
Bessa I's sell routinely around $100 with a Vaskar, $200 with a Color Skopar
Bessa II's routinely sell for $300 to over $2000 depending on lens. (I have only seen 3 Bessa II's with the Lanthanium based lens)
The dual format mask on either of the first two will generally add to the price and is difficult to find.

Another option is a copy of a Zeiss Ikon... the russian Moska5. It is a rangefinder, has the dual format option (watch for the plate accompanying the camera), and has been noted to have a nice lens. However, the russian quality issue is present on those cameras.

If I were going to buy a Moskva 5, I would probably only buy one that CERTO6 on eBay (Jurgen Kreckel) was selling. I have had him do repairs and bought from him. He is quite the folder man. Here is a link to his site. (not affiliated):

http://www.certo6.com/

The options are vast in the old folder market. If you know you only want a 6X9 camera, there are many to choose from. If you want the dual format option, which would fill out nicely around your 6X6, the market is somewhat limited.

Good luck. The market is rife with good, average, and poor examples.

[Pakmanpdx]

I have a bessa 1 with the Vaskar lens, and I have to say that it produces excellent shots. I use a shoe mount rangefinder for it, it's a very slow and deliberate way to shoot, but I like the results. It is a very inovative camera in a lot of ways- the viewfinder has masks for close-ups to correct parallax and lots of exposure locks to keep you from double exposing. I don't have the 6x4.5 mask, but I have a rolleicord if I need smaller 120 (6X6) and don't really miss it. I think they are great cameras and highly recommend them!

[rich815]

The most important thing is going to be proper alignment otherwise the lens and the whole idea of shooting 6x9 goes out the window. Assuming that you cannot go wrong with Zeiss glass usually. Frankly I'd pay the premium for a good CLA'd and fully adjusted Jurgen camera. I have a Zeiss Ikon 6x6 folder from him (thru someone else) that is just awesome.

Example image here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/2075425099/

[shadowfox]

kuzano: I think the super-expensive lens that you're describing is the Apo-Lanthar.

Way: Another way to think about this, it depends what kind of look you're after. If you are after the sharp, contrast look, go with the ones with top lenses (Tessar, Solinar, Heliar, etc.).

But if you're looking for a romantic, vintage look, you can get the much cheaper lens (Novar, Vaskar, Agnar, Voigtar, etc.).

Here's a thread with samples from my Bessa RF with Heliar lens. Sorry for the poor digitalization (no scanner), but it shows how sharp the top lenses can be. The slides themselves are even more amazing.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51215

I also have an Ansco Viking with the cheap Agnar lens. It takes wonderful portraits with that vintage look, very lovely. Sorry, no samples online (having no scanner sucks).

[KoNickon]

I just yesterday got a Bessa I with the Vaskar but alas no 6x4.5 mask. It seems to be a really well made camera, like all the Voigtlanders of that vintage, and should be a lot of fun.

But I would definitely consider the Moskva-5 also, if you want a rangefinder. And try to get one with the 6x6 mask if you can.

[polaski]

I have an older dual format Bessa that I am restoring. That's the extent of my 6x9 experience, unless you want to count Kodak Autographics and a rollfilm back on the 2x3 Graphic.

The Voigtlander 6x6 folders are terrific. I have a very good Perkeo II, and the (Baby) Bessa 66 is a hoot to work with.

[FallisPhoto]

Since getting my Super Isolette, the folder bug has bitten pretty hard and I'm now looking for a 6x9 folder. Any recommendations from you knowledgable folks? Good optics, reliabilty and probably a rangefinder would be nice.

Go to Jurgen Kreckel's website and browse the cameras. He doesn't have every medium format folding camera ever made listed there, but he does have some good ones. http://www.certo6.com/index.html

That said, look more at the lenses than at the cameras. Franka, Balda, Agfa/Ansco, Zeiss, Voigtlander and several others all made nice cameras. Just try to get one with a nice lens. Tessars, Xenars, Xenons, Solinars, Soligons, Rodenstocks, Skopars, a few of the Ektars and so on are all good. Some of the better cooke triplet lenses are pretty good if you are using b&w film (Apotars, Cassars, Radionars and so on). I mean they are not Tessars, but it's a pretty small step up for the difference in price. Just try to avoid the low end lenses. BTW, take Jurgen's statements about lenses with a grain of salt. I agree with most of what he says, but I don't agree with all of it. Some of the triplet lenses he thinks are good are just plain not.

[Way]

Wow! A ton of great advice and information. And so fast! I need to run off to a rehearsal, but I did want to quickly say that all your help is much appreciated. I'll digest all this information and get back to this thread soon.

[P C Headland]

If you get a good one, the Moskva 5 is a great option. The lens is very good. Excellent value for money. If you decide not to get a CLA'ed one from a reputable source, get one that looks like it has been used - usually a good indication it's a good 'un! Some people find them a bit too "left handed", but you soon get to grips with that.

Another one you could consider is the Zeiss Ikonta 524/2 or Mess Ikonta. This has an uncoupled rangefinder and either a Novar or Tessar lens. You pay quite a bit more for the Tessar equiped version, but stopped down the Novar is pretty close.

If you want something a little more exotic and with a coupled RF, you could look for a Telka or Royer. The Telka comes with a shorter than usual 90mm lens.

[Range Loser]

Another option is the excellent Kershaw Kurlew, a British camera I think. I don't think it has a rangefinder as far as I remember, but others in the Kershaw range may have. It took some great pictures when I owned it.

Andy.

[FallisPhoto]

If you get a good one, the Moskva 5 is a great option. The lens is very good. Excellent value for money. If you decide not to get a CLA'ed one from a reputable source, get one that looks like it has been used - usually a good indication it's a good 'un! Some people find them a bit too "left handed", but you soon get to grips with that.

Another one you could consider is the Zeiss Ikonta 524/2 or Mess Ikonta. This has an uncoupled rangefinder and either a Novar or Tessar lens. You pay quite a bit more for the Tessar equiped version, but stopped down the Novar is pretty close.

If you want something a little more exotic and with a coupled RF, you could look for a Telka or Royer. The Telka comes with a shorter than usual 90mm lens.

Before buying a Moskva, be sure to look through the viewfinder. If it is a little off horizontally, it is no big deal to fix, but if it is off vertically, it is nearly impossible to fix. It can be done, but it is seriously not worth it. By the time you get it done, the very sight of that camera will make you want to cry. To realign the rangefinder vertically, you take the arm apart that contains the prisms. Inside, you will find two prisms mounted inside toothed wheels. You have to rotate the wheels in relationship to one another one tooth at a time until you just happen to hit the right combination. Both wheels have a LOT of fine teeth. You have to partially reassemble the arm between each adjustment, to see if it works. Add to that that the screws are the size of pin heads and are painted black, so it is very difficult to see what you are doing. It is utterly nerve wracking. After realigning mine, I didn't want to look at it for about 4 months.

[FallisPhoto]

This is true of many mfr folders. High end Zeiss Ikons used Zeiss glass, while middle of the road used Nettar.

High end Zeiss Ikons used Tessars or Color Skopars. Middle of the road models could have either one of those or a Novar. Low end models almost always used Novars. The Nettars were Zeiss's low end camera models, not lenses. All Zeiss cameras used Zeiss glass.

[raid]

I would add the Franka Solida III with RF and fast Schneider lens (2.9). It is not expensive and it is highly recommended by Juergen Kreckel.

[literiter]

If you want something a little more exotic and with a coupled RF, you could look for a Telka or Royer. The Telka comes with a shorter than usual 90mm lens.

I have a Demaria Dehel Lapierre Telka III. Telka III for short. Yes it is a tad exotic but quite nice to look at.

P C Headland,
What do you know of the camera? Do you have one??

Way,
I would follow P C Headland and Fallisphoto's advice and consider the Moskva 5. As well the Moskva 4 comes in two versions and either is just fine. I think the lens on the Moskva 4 is really very good. Ebay or Jurgen, the final cost will be nearly the same.
The Super Ikonta Cs are lovely cameras but the Albada finders are a problem with most of them. But the lens is great and I've used mine for panoramics with some success.

The problem I have now, is finding different little exotics here and there on Ebay. Sites like this (I'd never heard of the Royer till Headland mentioned it. Damn!) and elsewhere on the net.

So at this count I have for 6 x 9 rangefinder folders:
Super Ikonta, Ensign, Voigtlander, Balda(?), Welta, Telka, Kershaw, Moskva and Royer.

What did I leave out??

[FallisPhoto]

So at this count I have for 6 x 9 rangefinder folders:
Super Ikonta, Ensign, Voigtlander, Balda(?), Welta, Telka, Kershaw, Moskva and Royer.

What did I leave out??

Agfa/Ansco, Franka and Adox/Wergin come immediately to mind.

[P C Headland]

I have a Demaria Dehel Lapierre Telka III. Telka III for short. Yes it is a tad exotic but quite nice to look at.

P C Headland,
What do you know of the camera? Do you have one??



I have handled one (Telka) , and came close to buy a couple, but I haven't found the right one. Same for the Royer, although that is more a price thing - the ones I have seen were quite expensive.

Paul

[literiter]

Agfa/Ansco, Franka and Adox/Wergin come immediately to mind.

Did Agfa/Ansco make a 6x9 rangefinder? I forgot about the Franka and Wergin.

My Telka is missing the bellows (it rotted off) and the shutter actuator. I now have a bellows but will have to manufature the actuator. I would like a picture of the actuator if anyone has a camera like this.

[clarence]

I once had a Moskva with the vertical alignment out of whack. The view through the rangefinder was very funky; it reminded me of a kaleidoscope since the double images would move along a diagonal axis. I still managed to use it, though. As long as the double images were right atop one another, the subject would be in focus.


Clarence

[FallisPhoto]

[quote=literiter]Did Agfa/Ansco make a 6x9 rangefinder? [quote]

Yes, the Record III

[FallisPhoto]

I once had a Moskva with the vertical alignment out of whack. The view through the rangefinder was very funky; it reminded me of a kaleidoscope since the double images would move along a diagonal axis. I still managed to use it, though. As long as the double images were right atop one another, the subject would be in focus.


Clarence

This is how I fixed mine, that did the same thing: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/superfix.html

[Krosya]

I'm a big fan of a Welta Weltur. Coupled RF, nice VF very solid. Somewhat hard to find. I have both 6x9 and 6x6 versions. This is one of those old time German craftsmanship type of cameras. Made around 1936-38 but still looks and works great. And they usually have good lenses on them too. As they are pretty rare - they cost. Not Bessa II with Heliar prices, but can be high in good condition.:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2337/2127127683_08075435ea_o.jpg

[Krosya]

and here is it's smaller sister Welta Weltur 6x6:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/1458961292_63b704166e.jpg

[FallisPhoto]

I'm a big fan of a Welta Weltur. Coupled RF, nice VF very solid. Somewhat hard to find. I have both 6x9 and 6x6 versions. This is one of those old time German craftsmanship type of cameras. Made around 1936-38 but still looks and works great. And they usually have good lenses on them too. As they are pretty rare - they cost. Not Bessa II with Heliar prices, but can be high in good condition.

Personally, I think Welta made some of the very best folders ever. Everything they did had some of the best lenses available at the time and just screams craftsmanship.

[RObert Budding]

I picked up a Zeiss Ercona II for less than $100 (from Germany via eBay). The Tessar lens is bitingly sharp. It does not have a rangefinder, so I usually just stop down and zone focus.

[whitecat]

A Bessa I is a good choice.

[Way]

I'm a big fan of a Welta Weltur. Coupled RF, nice VF very solid. Somewhat hard to find. I have both 6x9 and 6x6 versions. This is one of those old time German craftsmanship type of cameras. Made around 1936-38 but still looks and works great. And they usually have good lenses on them too. As they are pretty rare - they cost. Not Bessa II with Heliar prices, but can be high in good condition.:


Hi Krosya,

The Welta looks interesting but I'm a little concerned that the VF is way over to the right side of the camera body. I use my left eye and I wonder if that would be uncomfortable to use?

[puderse]

My Record III w/Solinar works great!!!

[Krosya]

Hi Krosya,

The Welta looks interesting but I'm a little concerned that the VF is way over to the right side of the camera body. I use my left eye and I wonder if that would be uncomfortable to use?


Well, being a left-handed camera, it may take a little getting used to, but I feel comfortable using it. I use either eye - I'm comfortable with left and right equally with any rangefinder, so switching back and forth isn't hard for me. But I suppose it depends on a personal preference at this point.

[Way]

Thank you all for the valuable information. I just purchased a Bessa RF/Heliar with the 6x4.5 insert from Jurgen Kreckel. Can't wait to use it!

[Ikontafan]

Zeiss Super Ikonta C or Mess Ikonta

[Solinar]

Way - A belated congratulations on acquiring a pre-war Bessa RF. - Enjoy -

[Way]

Way - A belated congratulations on acquiring a pre-war Bessa RF. - Enjoy -

Thanks Andrew. I'll post pics of the Bessa RF and pictures taken by the camera when it arrives. BTW I like your avatar!

[FallisPhoto]

Thank you all for the valuable information. I just purchased a Bessa RF/Heliar with the 6x4.5 insert from Jurgen Kreckel. Can't wait to use it!

Congratulations. That is a fine camera. Be sure to check it over thoroughly. Jurgen is pretty good, but he occasionally forgets to put some of the screws back where he found them.

[moving_electron]

I just started using a Moskva 4. One thing about it is that at least with the Arista Edu film (Fomapan) I was using to test with, it is nearly impossible to see numbers through the red window. Even a penlight does not help me read the numbers out-of-doors. I am getting used to the number of winding turns (12) that spaces correctly in 6x9. I will try a red LED mini flaslight though and see if that helps.

Thanks to some of the info and links in this thread and forum I was able to fix the Moskva 4 (v1 type) that I got this week. I bought it direct from a website I used before to get my beloved Iskra.

The camera was supposed to be CLAed. And it is clean but the rangefinder worked exactly backwards. When you used it to focus at infinity it set the lens to 1.5m and vise-versa!

Maybe I was missing something obvious but I had to mess with the two geared lenses in the pop-up "window" and eventually I got it corrected. I had the rangefinder images moving vertically at one time. :-).

The person doing the CLA did adjust the lens to be correct at the infinity mark so that was very helpful. I think they just put the geared lens pair back in upside down after cleaning them. I am still scratching my head and maybe the rangefinder infinity adjust alone could have corrected it. Well at least I know how the mechanisms work now!

Adjusting the rangefinder for infinity is really easy on this camera. The test images look sharp and in focus now.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/2305408797_585620e892_b.jpg

[Luddite Frank]

I have a couple of 6x9 Folders:

Franka "Rolfix Jr." (Made in Germany - US Zone), with which came with the 6x6 mask. VF has frame lines for 6x6 & 6x9.
f:4.5 Anastigmat Frankar 105mm, uncoated. scale focus.
Vario Shutter: B - 25 - 50 - 200
Hyperfocal marks for "point & shoot" : 13 ft @ f: 11


Voigtlander Bessa - pre-War ? f: 3.5 Skopar 10,5 cm lens (uncoated), Compur-Rapid Shutter: B - 1 - 2 - 5 - 10 - 25 - 50 - 100 - 200 - 400
Originally had a 6x6 mask (now missing), and the Viewfinder has a flip-up 6x6 mask. Wondeful camera, big, crisp lens.
HF marks: f:8 @ 11ft for close subjects ( 8 - 16 ft);
35 ft for distant subjects (20 ft to Inf ).

My other "nice" folder is a Zeiss "Ikonta 521", which is 4.5 x 6 cm. It has the 75mm Novar (coated) in a Prontor shutter. This is a tiny camera, and will give 16 exposures on a roll of 120.
The shutter is sticky due to oil on the blades.

One other beast that I shoot 6x9 with is a late 1920's Zeiss "Donata" 9x12 plate camera, equipped with a 120 roll-film back.


It's hard to go wrong with a Zeiss camera; RF -equipped models generally cost more than their non-RF cousins.

Good luck !

Luddite Frank

[wallace]

Frank,

I think your Bessa dates from 1945-1950. The prewar versions don't have such a fast lens. Good to hear that you are satisfied with the results you got. Only yesterday I bought that camera from the evilbay. It has no mask but it don't bother me since I use my wonderful Perkeo II for 6x6. The Skopar is a fantastic lens and all the old Voigtlanders are high quality machines. Never had a lighthole issue with the Voigtllanders bellows.

[chippy]

Frank,

I think your Bessa dates from 1945-1950. The prewar versions don't have such a fast lens. .

Wallace i thnk you will find the pre-war had the 3.5 scoper (i have seen many). not sure if they even offered a scoper (uncoated) post war..the book (mine anyway)does not mention it. it says post war (1947 resumed production) was offered in uncoated heliar and later with 3.5 colour scopar and 3.5 colour heliar

[wallace]

Frank, please look here: http://www.cinci.de/unter_bessa.html

My Bessa looks exactly like this: http://www.cinci.de/einzel/40.html
The only difference: my lens is an uncoated Skopar. I think it dates only a few years back, all the described pre war Bessas seem to have slower Skopars.

Wallace