2x3 cameras?

[alternatve]

Hello to all,

I'm testing the waters of medium format photography and want to learn more about 2x3 cameras which, if I understand, accepts 120 roll film. I love the way a press camera feels and handles and want to try on my own tilting and shifting, but don't want the bulk nor the 4x5 format... yet as I can't support it as well as 35mm and 120. I'm probably going to use it for landscape, architecture and possibly portrait shots, if I don't scare people away with it in the first place. Information is rather spotty on the web and LF users in my home country are few and far between.

Thus, I wish to know:

-What are the disadvantages with a 2x3 camera compared to a real 4x5 press camera?

-Are all graflock backs from all manufactuers useable?

-Am I sane to think about using such a camera when I came from a 35mm background?

-What are the makes and models of 2x3 cameras to look out for?

-Are the lenses used by 4x5 cameras all useable on a 2x3 camera? If not, how do I look for one that is useable?

-Is it alright to use a "small" format on such a big camera?

-Any other cavents?

It's alright if you sigh after 1,231,1232 such requests, and I would appreciate if you would simply point me in the right direction if you are too tired to type out the same response yet again

Thank you, and feel free to correct me if I have said anything wrong.

Samuel

[FPjohn]

Hello:

A Century Graphic (economical) or a Linhof Tech 70/ Baby Master Technica (expensive) would make a fine landscape and portrait camera. Architecture would lead you to the likes of the 6x9 Ebonies and Arca Swiss field and monorail view cameras. The horseman backs are the standard and preferred graflock backs. 645, 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 backs are also available. Linhof has its own back not compatible with Graflock.

Extreme wide angle work is more difficult on most 6x9s and the lens choice is restricted.

yours
Frank

[wlewisiii]

Hello Samuel,

As a happy user of a 2x3 Baby Speed Graphic as well as 2 4x5 Graphics, I hope I can answer your questions for you.

The 2x3 Graphic is the same camera as the 4x5, just writ smaller. This means they share pluses and minuses: minimal movements, limited bellows draw and so forth.

The graflok backs provide a standard of attaching accessories. The back itself may be different on different brands of cameras, but they will have the same connections allowing the same, for example, roll film backs to be used. Whatever camera you get, simply get one that has a graflok back - if it doesn't, don't bother no matter how "good" the price may be.

For a great listing of 2x3 cameras and their respective strengths and weaknesses see: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html

Lenses are a different kettle of fish. 4x5 lenses will work though most will be rather long focus lenses on the smaller format. Instead look for lenses like the Kodak Ektar 101/4.5 and 127/4.7 - the 127 is _the_ press camera lens on 4x5 where it is a moderate wide angle with little capacity for movements. On a 2x3 it will be a slightly longer than normal lens with ample movements. It is one of the great lenses and easy to find inexpensivly since it was so popular back in the day.

I use a 1938 Carl Zeiss Jena 105mm/3.5 in a Compur Rapid on mine - this is basically a normal lens on the 6x7 format I use. There are many other good lenses out there as well.

Good information resources (if you haven't already read them):
http://www.graflex.org
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

As for sanity, well, I leave that up to you :) I shoot 35, (6x6, 6x7, 6x9) & 4x5 on a fairly large variety of cameras (see my .sig ;) ) so my objectivity is non-existent. Only you can decide if you enjoy using this format and style of camera. I enjoy it and find people react positively to my baby Speed after decades of it being what a "CAMERA" looks like.

Hope this helps,

William

[David Goldfarb]

If you go for a Linhof 23 and want to use the rangefinder, try to find one in a kit with three cammed lenses. They're wonderful cameras, and the quality of Linhof service is first rate, but I've been waiting for my Tech V 23b to come back from Marflex to have three lenses cammed and a few small repairs since April. Wait times may be different in other countries or if you deal directly with the factory.

The Super-Rollex backs also have excellent film flatness. You'll really notice the difference.

Avoid old Linhof Rollex backs with the knob wind, though (Super-Rollex backs have a lever wind). Because of the way they are designed, they sometimes have overlapping frames with certain modern films due to the thickness of the film base and paper backing.

[kuzano]

Such as a bellows, and the previous post listed a couple of nice ones. The most reasonably priced entry level camera is the Graflex Century Graphic.
Graflok is Graflok... it's a patented film back coupling method. If you have a graflok 2X3 (6X9) film back it will fit all 2X3 graflok equipped cameras.

You also can use 2X3 cut sheet film holders if you like, but roll film is more more convenient.

Architecture photography pretty much implies a camera with front rise/fall and other simple movements. A camera with movements allows a myriad of focus and perspective controls.

Backs come in 6X4.5, 6X6, 6X7, and 6X9. There are backs made for the Graflok mount by many manufacturers, and again including Graflex. The biggest consideration for purchasing backs is film flatness. Early knob type Graflex backs were OK, but later lever backs with extra pin rollers inside were better. Horseman, Linhof and others make very expensive backs that supposedly deal with film flatness best.

Lenses come in many varieties, with the normal focal length for 2X3 being 90mm or 100mm.

You've opened the door to a vast storehouse of information and a huge inventory sitting out there unused. At any given time the number of listings on eBay total around 600 items in the large format category up to 5X7. If you go for cameras with bellows and movements (best choice for architecture because of the correction of merging lines), then most of the Graflex Centuries will be in that category, along with other smaller large format cameras.

Learn the difference between field type cameras... Century, Linhof, Horseman, Toyo, etc. and monorail or rail cameras for the smaller large format.

If you are inclined toward typical rangefinder or SLR 2X3 (6X9) cameras, like Pentax, Fuji, Bronica, Mamiya, or the later press cameras, you will be giving up perspective control (converging lines on architecture) and focus controls (near/far focus control) because fixed lens cameras do not allow such correction as a rule.

www.graflex.org is a great place to start your search. Look at the Graflex Graphic section where they talk about the larger 4X5's, and the smaller Century 2X3 format.

[alternatve]

Thank you for all your help.

So, I can buy a camera without a lens and mount almost any lens using a lens board? I assume the lens board is special for the different models of cameras available, so how do I go about obtaining them?

Also, I would like to focus using the ground glass, would that be a good idea? Or would using (and possibly obtaining) the rangefinder be a better idea?

Samuel

[wlewisiii]

Thank you for all your help.

So, I can buy a camera without a lens and mount almost any lens using a lens board? I assume the lens board is special for the different models of cameras available, so how do I go about obtaining them?



There are a number of different types, but once you have gotten a camera then you can look a number of places. For older Graphics, they are wood & can be made easily. Otherwise they show up on ebay frequently.



Also, I would like to focus using the ground glass, would that be a good idea? Or would using (and possibly obtaining) the rangefinder be a better idea?

Samuel

One of the fun things about the press cameras is the sheer versatility of them. Ground glass on tripod? Yep. RF handheld? Yep. Scale focused point & shoot? Yep. Heck I once balanced a 4x5 Speed on my knees while focusing on the ground glass. Not the smartest thing I've ever done, but the image worked well. For landscape & architectural, using the glass on a tripod is probably your best option. However, if you get a camera that has an RF, adjust it to your lens so you have all your options available.

William

[David Goldfarb]

You can find used lensboards, have them made for you, or make them yourself. Some places like www.mpex.com or www.lensandrepro.com usually have them, sometimes even new ones they've ordered in batches. For cameras that are still in production like Linhof, you can buy new ones.

In general, with LF cameras you can use any lens on any camera. If the lens is a non-standard size, you just have the lensboard machined with an appropriately sized hole. So there's usually no problem using a modern lens with an ancient camera, or a classic lens with a new camera, as long as the lens can physically mount on the camera (i.e., it's not too big). There are some that use helical mounts (more expensive) that are specific to a particular camera, but these are less common.

Groundglass and rangefinder focusing serve different purposes, and both can be useful. To use camera movements, you have to use the groundglass, but it's also handy to be able to pick up the camera and shoot it like a big Leica or use the rangefinder for portraits or moving subjects, so you can check focus with a filmholder in the back.

[venchka]

...So, I can buy a camera without a lens and mount almost any lens using a lens board? I assume the lens board is special for the different models of cameras available, so how do I go about obtaining them?

Samuel

These things come along all the time complete & ready to go. While you can put a variety of lenses on the correct board for your camera there are limits. Have you been to the Graflex or large format web pages yet? A lot is explained there. Absolutely wait for a camera with a built in functioning rangefinder. Adding one later is not a viable option. Also, stick to the popular brands, Graflex being the most popular and therefore the most plentiful.

2x3 cameras are something like orphans today. 4x5 hardware seems much more readily available. I don't know for a fact, but I'm guessing that there is a larger selection of sheet film in 4x5. On the other hand, you can shoot rollfilm in a rollfilm back on either 2x3 or 4x5. Not the same back though. You need different rollfilm backs for each format.

All things considered, the difference in bulk isn't that great between 2x3 and 4x5. They both handle the same. You won't get a picture any faster with 2x3 than you could with 4x5. There are more 4x5 cameras around. More lenses around. The negatives are BIGGER. You can shoot Polaroid material in 4x5. I don't know if that's true with 2x3. For those reasons I would seriously consider 4x5.

[venchka]

Here's a complete camera kit. Look for something like this. Actually, the buy it now price for this isn't too bad.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Graflex-Century-Graphic-w-Red-Bellow-Beautiful-2x3_W0QQitemZ270195269839QQihZ017QQcategoryZ15247Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohost ing

[David Goldfarb]

Yes, there are more film types available in 4x5" than 2x3".

There are Polaroid backs for some 2x3" cameras, but they are much less common than Polaroid backs for 4x5".

My 2x3" Technika is lighter and smaller and quicker to handle than the 4x5", but I think that's the case only because I have some experience with larger formats. My first LF camera was an 8x10", because it felt more intuitive and was easier to see what was happening on the big groundglass than with a smaller camera. I only found it easy to shoot 4x5" and later 2x3" when I was comfortable with 8x10". With 2x3" the groundglass is small and movements are slight, so I think it's more challenging for beginners than a 4x5" or larger camera.

[venchka]

The Linhof 23's sure look nice. All Linhofs look nice.

[sienarot]

FYI,

Someone on APUG is selling a Busch Pressman 2x3 with a 101mm f/4.5 lens, 5 backs, and 2 boxes of film for $135 USD. If you'd like, I can send you his contact information.

[alternatve]

FYI,

Someone on APUG is selling a Busch Pressman 2x3 with a 101mm f/4.5 lens, 5 backs, and 2 boxes of film for $135 USD. If you'd like, I can send you his contact information.

Isn't a Busch Pressman incompatible with graflock backs, even though I've read that they are very capable cameras in their own right.

Samuel

[ChrisN]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the rangefinder in a press camera is usually cammed for a particular focal length, so you can't switch freely between lenses and expect the rangefinder to accurately focus different focal length lenses. On some cameras the rangefinder can be adjusted for different lenses, or the cam replaced, but that can be a messy business and is not undertaken lightly.

[alternatve]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the rangefinder in a press camera is usually cammed for a particular focal length, so you can't switch freely between lenses and expect the rangefinder to accurately focus different focal length lenses. On some cameras the rangefinder can be adjusted for different lenses, or the cam replaced, but that can be a messy business and is not undertaken lightly.

I've read about this online and I must say that the entire affair makes replacing lenses on a Argus C3 positively hassle free. Which is why I would rather use the ground glass.

Incidently, would it be possible to use an external rangefinder, get the distance from it and dial it in yourself?

Samuel

[ChrisN]

Yes, certainly, but once again you will need to calibrate the lens and the bellows adjustment for infinity, and have or create a scale on the bed. Focusing on the ground glass may well be a lot simpler!

[alternatve]

Yes, certainly, but once again you will need to calibrate the lens and the bellows adjustment for infinity, and have or create a scale on the bed. Focusing on the ground glass may well be a lot simpler!

Now I know why SLRs killed the rangefinder. It's all getting too much for me, I need a sit and a drink.

Would it be possible to focus using the ground glass and compose using the viewfinder, handheld? I dislike using tripods.

Samuel

[ChrisN]

No, you could not hold the camera steady enough for accurate focusing on the ground glass. Using the ground glass really requires a tripod. Hand-held use really needs a calibrated rangefinder. Perhaps with a small aperture for greatest depth-of-field, you might get away with it, but I'd expect a lot of poorly-focused shots (from my limited experience).

If you select the right lens for the rangefinder, and stick to just that lens, it is not too difficult to get the camera, lens and rangefinder calibrated. The Graflex Graphic cameras (either Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic) would be a good choice for starting out as they were designed to be used hand-held, but are also quite good for shooting off a tripod in a more deliberate fashion. There is also plenty of good information about them available on the web, and free copies of the original manuals.

Have you studied www.graflex.org? That is a good place to start.

Good luck!

[Solinar]

Samuel - folding press cameras are what separate the men from the boys. Their use is more of a craft as opposed to casual use.

My preference is for 6x9 fixed-lens RF cameras. I more often than not use a tripod even with these hand-holdable 6x9 RF's, (see my signature below), . This is 8 exposures on 120. You might as well make them count.

Seriously, if you are lazy or easily befuddled - run - don't walk to a more automated camera.

[alternatve]

No, you could not hold the camera steady enough for accurate focusing on the ground glass. Using the ground glass really requires a tripod. Hand-held use really needs a calibrated rangefinder. Perhaps with a small aperture for greatest depth-of-field, you might get away with it, but I'd expect a lot of poorly-focused shots (from my limited experience).

If you select the right lens for the rangefinder, and stick to just that lens, it is not too difficult to get the camera, lens and rangefinder calibrated. The Graflex Graphic cameras (either Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic) would be a good choice for starting out as they were designed to be used hand-held, but are also quite good for shooting off a tripod in a more deliberate fashion. There is also plenty of good information about them available on the web, and free copies of the original manuals.

Have you studied www.graflex.org? (http://www.graflex.org?) That is a good place to start.

Good luck!

Oh yes, that place is indeed a treasure chest of information. I only wish that I approached my other subjects with the same gusto. ;)

Hmm, I see. Well, if others can do it, I guess so can I.

Solinar, I thank you for your concern, but I do view photography as a craft rather then for casual use. However, I am taken aback at the amount of information and need time to process it. But the friendly people here certainly has helped me quite a bit, and I thank you all for it.

The Busch Pressman looks good to me, but I don't know whether it'll take roll film or be able to be modified to take grafloc backs although I've heard of them being modified in that way before.

Samuel

[David Goldfarb]

On a Linhof 2x3" Technika, the rangefinder cam is like a flower with three lobes, and each lobe is a cam that has been individually calibrated and serial number stamped for one lens. To change lenses and cams you just unclip the lensboard, rotate the cam, and clip a new lens in. If you want more than three cammed lenses, then you have to change the three-lobed cam, which takes a little longer, but still isn't too difficult.

With press cameras that don't use cams, you have to calibrate the rangefinder to one lens, and this is a bit of a process, but you can dedicate one lens to rangefinder or groundglass use, and use other lenses with the groundglass.

Uncoupled rangefinders are an option, where you mount the rangefinder on an accessory shoe and make a focusing scale for each lens on the camera bed.

If you have a camera that has a coupled rangefinder for one lens, you can use it as an uncoupled rangefinder for other lenses. Say you've calibrated the rangefinder for your 100mm lens, but you've also got a 65mm and a 180mm. You make distance scales on the bed and set up infinity stops for all three, and when you're using the 65mm lens, say, you focus with the rangefinder, read the distance on the 100mm scale, adjust the focus to the same distance on the 65mm scale, and you should be in focus at that distance--not so difficult once you get the hang of it, but not as quick or precise as having a cammed coupled rangefinder for each lens.

[Solinar]

I do view photography as a craft rather then for casual use.

Excellent. I read the comment about 35mm SLRs and went oops.

Here in the US, the plastic bodied Century Graphic is under appreciated . Hence it is a good value relative to my big Fuji 6x9. I may get one myself that lacks the built in RF and go the uncoupled RF route.

Even with my RF background, I can appreciate ground glass focusing, especially when the screen is 2 by 3 inches. However, for more casual usage, I'd like to the rangefinder option as well. That way I can leave the film back on the camera between exposures.

[Solinar]

Uncoupled rangefinders are an option, where you mount the rangefinder on an accessory shoe and make a focusing scale for each lens on the camera bed.

If you have a camera that has a coupled rangefinder for one lens, you can use it as an uncoupled rangefinder for other lenses.

Samuel, this is the route that I would use. That would allow for an old Ektar WA and something akin to a 180mm in addition to the normal lens. The three are the equivalent to a 28, 45 and 75mm in the 35mm SLR world.

[wlewisiii]

The price is good enough on that Busch to almost be worth it, but the only roll film adaptor for a spring back is the Adapt-A-Roll which will feed 120 but requires a 620 takeup spool. I have one and the nicest thing I can say is that it works. If you do end up with a spring back camera, let me know and I'll probably let you have the AAR for a couple of rolls of film.

The press camera can be a fast handling shooter or it can be a slow & contemplative image maker. While the Linhof or Arca-Swiss are great cameras, the price performance ratio of a 2x3 Pacemaker or Century Graphic is one of the best bargains in photography today.

William

[alternatve]

On a Linhof 2x3" Technika, the rangefinder cam is like a flower with three lobes, and each lobe is a cam that has been individually calibrated and serial number stamped for one lens. To change lenses and cams you just unclip the lensboard, rotate the cam, and clip a new lens in. If you want more than three cammed lenses, then you have to change the three-lobed cam, which takes a little longer, but still isn't too difficult.

With press cameras that don't use cams, you have to calibrate the rangefinder to one lens, and this is a bit of a process, but you can dedicate one lens to rangefinder or groundglass use, and use other lenses with the groundglass.

Uncoupled rangefinders are an option, where you mount the rangefinder on an accessory shoe and make a focusing scale for each lens on the camera bed.

If you have a camera that has a coupled rangefinder for one lens, you can use it as an uncoupled rangefinder for other lenses. Say you've calibrated the rangefinder for your 100mm lens, but you've also got a 65mm and a 180mm. You make distance scales on the bed and set up infinity stops for all three, and when you're using the 65mm lens, say, you focus with the rangefinder, read the distance on the 100mm scale, adjust the focus to the same distance on the 65mm scale, and you should be in focus at that distance--not so difficult once you get the hang of it, but not as quick or precise as having a cammed coupled rangefinder for each lens.

Trust the Germans to think of everything.

So let me get this straight. You set the infinity stops for the lenses you are using, and plot a distance scale for the most used lens. While using the other lenses, you use the same scale, but set it to a different infinity stop? Hey, I think I might get the hang of this. It even sounds pretty fun. :eek: Shh, don't tell anyone else, they might lock me up.

Solinar,

Hey, plastic is good. Termites can't chew into it and it doesn't rot, not for a few hundred years. I tried AF SLRs and got turned away from it. Photography isn't a craft when you spend 2 seconds to take a picture and zero time composing it. Also, what focal lengths correspond to those three values again? 65mm, 100mm and 180mm?

wlewisiii,

I think I'll save my pain for the focusing and tilt/shift functions. The last thing I want to know is my roll came out blank after a long, tiring day out lugging the camera! I guess I'll keep a lookout for a Century or a Pacemaker then. No rush, I think I need to learn a whole lot more myself. Thanks a bunch guys. :)

Samuel

[David Goldfarb]

So let me get this straight. You set the infinity stops for the lenses you are using, and plot a distance scale for the most used lens. While using the other lenses, you use the same scale, but set it to a different infinity stop? Hey, I think I might get the hang of this. It even sounds pretty fun. :eek: Shh, don't tell anyone else, they might lock me up.


Almost. If you're using the method of one coupled lens/other uncoupled lenses, you have a set of infinity stops and a focusing scale for each lens.

When you change lenses, you change infinity stops.

The rangefinder is calibrated for one lens (say 100mm) and the distance scale for that lens always tells you how far away the subject is, no matter what lens is on the camera. You use the other scales to adjust the focus for the lens on the camera. So if you are using the 100mm lens, just focus with the rangefinder, look through the viewfinder, frame, and shoot (don't forget to pull the darkslide, cock the shutter, stop down the lens, and set the shutter speed, not necessarily in that order). If you are using a 65mm lens, you focus, read the distance off the 100mm scale, then using the 65mm scale refocus the camera for the same distance, frame and shoot.

Here's another neat thing. If the camera has a seemingly primitive wire frame finder with a sight on the camera body and a wire frame on the front standard, then it works with any focal length as long as the lens is not a telephoto design in general (where the node of the lens will be way out in front of the lensboard)--simple, but ingenious.

[alternatve]

Thanks. :) I'm searching for a 2x3 or 4x5 Century or a Pacemaker Graphic now. Lens boards, acessories and the all important graflok back are my main motivators to buy graphic. To be honest, a Horseman or a Linhof looks mighty fine, but too expensive for me.

Oh btw, are all graflok holders compatible with all graflok rollfilm backs made?

Samuel

[venchka]

Thanks. :) I'm searching for a 2x3 or 4x5 Century or a Pacemaker Graphic now. Lens boards, acessories and the all important graflok back are my main motivators to buy graphic. To be honest, a Horseman or a Linhof looks mighty fine, but too expensive for me.

Oh btw, are all graflok holders compatible with all graflok rollfilm backs made?

Samuel

Theoretically, yes. To be 100% certain, stick to Graflex/Graphic brand rollfilm backs. However, 2x3 rollfilm holders only fit 2x3 cameras. Same for 4x5 holders. Grafmatic holders also come in both sizes, "23" and "45".

[alternatve]

Theoretically, yes. To be 100% certain, stick to Graflex/Graphic brand rollfilm backs. However, 2x3 rollfilm holders only fit 2x3 cameras. Same for 4x5 holders. Grafmatic holders also come in both sizes, "23" and "45".

Hmm, I see. Could I use another manufacturer's rollfilm holder, say Mamiya's 6x7 back?

Samuel

[wlewisiii]

Hmm, I see. Could I use another manufacturer's rollfilm holder, say Mamiya's 6x7 back?

Samuel

Yes, if it uses the two sliding tabs to hold the back to the camera, it will work. I've heard of the Horseman & the Mamiya backs being used successfully. The Mamiyas look almost identical to my RH-10 and are supposed to be better made. I can't say as I haven't used them. Both are also considerably more expensive than the Singer-Graphics ones.

Which reminds me - only get the later lever wind backs if you can. They have much better film flatness than the knob wind ones.

William

[Solinar]

The later Graflex backs are usually marked Singer-Graphic and have added rollers for film flatness. Still, it is good idea to advance the film just before making the exposure.

With regards to Mamiya RB backs, there is one for 6x7 that is even motorized. On a Graphic this may be a bit overboard, as one must manually tension the shutter and use a cable release, but what a luxury.

[kuzano]

Two previous posts refer to the film flatness of Graflex roll film holders. The pin rollers that help keep the film flat were actually added before the backs changed from knob wind to lever wind. Look for those pin rollers and a knob wind can:

1) save you money because common thinking is that the pin rollers don't exist in knob winds, making them inferior... wrong. Late knob winds had pin rollers. People generally will pay more for lever winds, less for knob wind.
2) Avoid floppy levers. Many lever wind backs have weak return springs on the lever. The levers on these don't fully retract and can catch on objects, advancing the film.

If the back has a knob wind AND the two pin rollers at each end of the film opening, I suggest that is the better Graflex back.

[Solinar]

Very good info. Welcome to the dark slide. No pun intended.

[wlewisiii]

Oh, that is very good to know. Everything I'd read indicated that the pin rollers did come it with the lever wind. Thanks for the information!

Willim

[alternatve]

Yes, if it uses the two sliding tabs to hold the back to the camera, it will work. I've heard of the Horseman & the Mamiya backs being used successfully. The Mamiyas look almost identical to my RH-10 and are supposed to be better made. I can't say as I haven't used them. Both are also considerably more expensive than the Singer-Graphics ones.

Which reminds me - only get the later lever wind backs if you can. They have much better film flatness than the knob wind ones.

William

Thanks. I want a back that uses 6x7 images.

Thanks for the PM wlewisiii, I appreciate it, but I want to keep things local first, so that I have a chance to handle the camera. If all else fails, then I'm afraid evil bay would have to suffice.

Samuel

[venchka]

Be afraid of ebay. Be very afraid.

Unless the seller is known to this community.

[alternatve]

Yea, that's what I'm trying to avoid at all costs. However, I cannot find an alternative place to purchase it. A Horseman with lens costs around $3.8k USD in a local camera shop and Graphics are either in the hands of photographers or not at all. I'm afraid there isn't too big a following of LF cameras here.

But anyway, I can take my time. It's a want, not a need.

Just one last question, How do you know how much of the image in the ground glass gets taken in by the film when using different format backs, 6x9 and 6x7 for example. Is there gridlines that tell me the film coverage, or is the picture squeezed into whatever film size there is? Thanks.

Samuel

[David Goldfarb]

The size of the image on the groundglass is the size of the image on the maximum film size. If the film is smaller than the groundglass, then only that part of what you see on the glass is what you get on film.

As to how you know where the frame edges are, it depends on the groundglass. Some are marked for different formats, and some are not, and some people use overlays or groundglass masks. I usually mark the groundglass on the matte side with pencil. You could also mark it on the shiny side with a china marker. There are some free overlays for 4x5" groundglasses available on www.satinsnowglass.com that you can print out on transparency film, and then if you have a 2x3" camera, you can just cut them to size.

[venchka]

Several forums on the internet have classified ads. This forum and the Large Format Forum both accept Want To Buy ads and you may get lucky. Keep you eyes open! There are reputable shops in Japan and Hong Kong that have ebay stores. Something may pop up there. I know that a a member of this forum who lives in Europe had a member in the U.S. handle buying and shipping a graphic camera to Europe this year. Where there is a will there is a way. Considering where you are and the lack of accessories, buying a complete system with camera, lens, holders, backs, etc. makes sense.

I just mailed a securely packaged 4x5 Speed Graphic in the U.S. and the total weight was almost 8 pounds. That will give you some idea of shipping costs to Singapore.

Good luck!

[BillBingham2]

Another option for 2X3 is using a roll film back on a 4x5. I have a few old 4x5s that were my fathers I love. The Crown Graphic is my favorite as it does not have a focal plane shutter and as a built in RF. I will be selling his large 4x5 SLR very soon though.

B2 (;->

[alternatve]

The size of the image on the groundglass is the size of the image on the maximum film size. If the film is smaller than the groundglass, then only that part of what you see on the glass is what you get on film.

As to how you know where the frame edges are, it depends on the groundglass. Some are marked for different formats, and some are not, and some people use overlays or groundglass masks. I usually mark the groundglass on the matte side with pencil. You could also mark it on the shiny side with a china marker. There are some free overlays for 4x5" groundglasses available on www.satinsnowglass.com that you can print out on transparency film, and then if you have a 2x3" camera, you can just cut them to size.

Large format is just so logical. Wrong size lensboard? Machine your own! Back not compatible? Make your own subsitute! Bellows holed? Patch it back! I love how things are limited by your own imagination. :)

Samuel

[venchka]

Toss in the endless possibilities of using old lenses, old shutters, no shutters and you could be grinning for a long long time.

[venchka]

www.keh.com

They may ship to Singapore. They have a good reputation and a good return policy.

[David Goldfarb]

That is definitely one of the attractions. It's nice to know that if you have a problem you can usually fix it yourself with ordinary stuff from the hardware store, and you're never tied to the lenses from any particular manufacturer. I use some lenses that are the most modern and advanced in their class as well as lenses from the early history of photography and many in between.

It's amazing to see the resurgence of old formats recently. Want to shoot 7x11? You can special order the film and get custom filmholders for your custom camera in that format. Got a good deal on 9.5" aerial roll film? Well, you could build a camera around it--9.5x9.5"? 9.5x12"? 9.5x24"? Maybe two or three formats with reducing backs.

[alternatve]

That is definitely one of the attractions. It's nice to know that if you have a problem you can usually fix it yourself with ordinary stuff from the hardware store, and you're never tied to the lenses from any particular manufacturer. I use some lenses that are the most modern and advanced in their class as well as lenses from the early history of photography and many in between.

It's amazing to see the resurgence of old formats recently. Want to shoot 7x11? You can special order the film and get custom filmholders for your custom camera in that format. Got a good deal on 9.5" aerial roll film? Well, you could build a camera around it--9.5x9.5"? 9.5x12"? 9.5x24"? Maybe two or three formats with reducing backs.

Oh, KEH is my favourite place. It's like a drug store for addicts! Unfortunately, they don't seem to have a graphic there, only 3x4 versions and it's japanese and german cousins, Horseman and Linhof.

Samuel

[David Goldfarb]

If you go for a Linhof 23 and want to use the rangefinder, try to find one in a kit with three cammed lenses. They're wonderful cameras, and the quality of Linhof service is first rate, but I've been waiting for my Tech V 23b to come back from Marflex to have three lenses cammed and a few small repairs since April. Wait times may be different in other countries or if you deal directly with the factory.

Well, it's been just over a year at Marflex and my camera is back! I've just been checking everything out, and I'll run some film through it tomorrow to test the rangefinder accuracy.

[bsdunek]

Seems no one has mentioned the Mamiya Press 23. If you get a Universal with a 'G' back adapter it will take all the Graflok 2X3 back accessories. All lenses (except the 250mm f8.0) couple to the rangefinder with no cams or other external parts.
It's small enough for hand holding, although it is quite heavy.
The only limitation I find is that only the back moves, not the front. This makes it rather limited if you want to do arcitecural work.
I have a Super 23 which only takes Mamiya back accessories. With a collection of cut film holders and roll film backs, it's a lot of fun. Mamiya lenses are great, and the shutters are long lived. They can be had for a reasonable price too.

[alternatve]

It's been a while since I've posted here, and I'm glad to report success!

I've just been in contact with a local professional photographer still using a 4x5 crown as his main kit (his D300 is merely a toy.. :P) and he very kindly relinquished a 2x3 Crown graphic to me! Extras include a Zeiss 80 f/2.8(!) Tessar and a Wollanstok 65 f/6.3 with a 4 2x3 film holders he said I could have as a memento. The real deal is a 6x6 roll film back that works well. I spent a great afternoon to early evening chatting with him and looking through his other toys inaddition to the little introduction to the crown. I know the Crown's movements are limited, but it sure beats the heck out of a SLR! It was sure smaller then what I've expected... I was expecting some monster camera that I was planning to upgrade my bag even! Thank goodness all my expectations were unfounded and I look forward to be using this with my DSLR in the same bag only with a tripod as additional gear. Unfortuantely I didn't bring a bag along so I'll be collecting it another day... And now I can't sleep!

My friends were chatting about girls all day in school, and I couldn't even begin to follow them. The only time I notice a girl is when she's holding a camera! Haha!

Btw, anyone know's where I can find a 6x9 graflok roll film holder for a 2x3 camera? I believe the codes are 23 graphic or RH-8. Thanks a bunch!

Samuel

[oftheherd]

Seems no one has mentioned the Mamiya Press 23. If you get a Universal with a 'G' back adapter it will take all the Graflok 2X3 back accessories. All lenses (except the 250mm f8.0) couple to the rangefinder with no cams or other external parts.
It's small enough for hand holding, although it is quite heavy.
The only limitation I find is that only the back moves, not the front. This makes it rather limited if you want to do arcitecural work.
I have a Super 23 which only takes Mamiya back accessories. With a collection of cut film holders and roll film backs, it's a lot of fun. Mamiya lenses are great, and the shutters are long lived. They can be had for a reasonable price too.

Heh, heh. If I had seen this thread before, you know I would have. I really like my Super Press 23. I have the 150mm, 100mm, 65mm(bad shutter now), and the 50mm. All great lenses. I also have some cut film backs and focusing screens, and the extention tubes. As you would well know, makes for a very versatile MF camera. It is a little heavy, but due to the handle and roll film backs, to me it handles quite 35mm like, and with a wide strap, I don't find it that heavy. And as for the 6x7 negs and slides ... Well, the only thing better is LF, and they don't carry as well. :D

Glad to see the original thread starter has just gotten something he likes. Hope to see some photos soon.

[Dektol Dan]

All these years and now there are 2 X 3's? I've never heard of such a thing. I always thought that the only format in that size was 2 1/4 X 3 1/4 (inches).
I guess the world has passed me by. I do know that the availability of sheet film for the smaller Speed Graphics is in the tank, and if you don't have a roll film back you might as well give up.

[David Goldfarb]

2x3" is just short for 2.25x3.25". It's the same format.

Current films in that format that I can find are Efke/Adox 25, 50, and 100 and Ilford HP5+. I'm not sure if the Foma emulsions are available, but could probably be special ordered.

Ilford is taking orders for special cuts, so a couple of us are lobbying for FP4+ in 2.25x3.25". Ilford is now offering custom sizes of FP4+ and HP5+ annually, and as long as they have enough pre-orders, they'll do sizes like 7x17", whole plate, 4x10", 11x14", and such. If anyone is interested, The View Camera Store is one of the participating dealers, and you can e-mail them at info@viewcamerastore.com to let them know you're interested.

[alternatve]

Heh, heh. If I had seen this thread before, you know I would have. I really like my Super Press 23. I have the 150mm, 100mm, 65mm(bad shutter now), and the 50mm. All great lenses. I also have some cut film backs and focusing screens, and the extention tubes. As you would well know, makes for a very versatile MF camera. It is a little heavy, but due to the handle and roll film backs, to me it handles quite 35mm like, and with a wide strap, I don't find it that heavy. And as for the 6x7 negs and slides ... Well, the only thing better is LF, and they don't carry as well. :D

Glad to see the original thread starter has just gotten something he likes. Hope to see some photos soon.

I couldn't sleep the whole day as I was dreaming about my graphic which is still sitting in the store! I haven't been this excited since I got my Leica!

Thank you all for all your help and advice! I won't be here now on the verge of obtaining a graphic without you guys. ;) Photos will be posted as soon as I can take some as my full time job as a student does take up quite a bit of time.

Actually, with this, I don't know whether to step up to 4x5 at all. I got the 2x3" thinking of a testing ground for 4x5, but with the support I get back home from the processing services, maybe it's not such a good idea at all? B&W processing I can take care, only a matter of obtaining a bigger tank. The problem arises when I want to scan it or am using colour negs/slides. I have to give it more thought indeed.

Samuel

[David Goldfarb]

If you scan, you can get huge files from big negs with a modestly priced flatbed scanner that can handle transparencies. If you go that way, you might make the jump to 5x7" from 2x3" to see a big leap in quality.

For color, is there no professional color lab that handles sheet film in Singapore?

[kuzano]

Btw, anyone know's where I can find a 6x9 graflok roll film holder for a 2x3 camera? I believe the codes are 23 graphic or RH-8. Thanks a bunch!Samuel

There is a myth that indicates the extra pin rollers for film flatness only came in the lever wind Graflex or Singer(they made backs for Graflex also) roll backs... Not True. I posted a picture of the pin rollers in a Graflex knob wind back on an earlier post.

Pin rollers are very thin rollers running vertically at the end of the opening in the back. They flatten the film more-so than earlier rollbacks. The rollers are chrome and less than 1/16 inch diameter. They make the Graflex backs nearly as good on film flatness as many of the more expensive backs.

One of the reasons I like the knob rollers (only with the pin rollers) is because the lever winds often get a weak return spring on the lever and the lever hangs out a bit, catching on things and partially winding the film on after a shot.

I've never had a problem finding a Graflex 23, or RH8 on eBay.

[alternatve]

If you scan, you can get huge files from big negs with a modestly priced flatbed scanner that can handle transparencies. If you go that way, you might make the jump to 5x7" from 2x3" to see a big leap in quality.

For color, is there no professional color lab that handles sheet film in Singapore?

Oh yes, they do handle 4x5, at around SGD $4.50 a sheet which is around USD$3.30. I don't mind the price but if I can scan direct from a normal scanner and still get amazing quality beating my 2x3, I sure don't mind!

Of course a Epson v700 is a very nice scanner that does 4x5 and 8x10 if I read correctly. At SGD$900 or USD$665, I'll have to consider carefully!

I think I might shelve the film back for now and mess around with my 6x6 back. Got to get used to the camera before I get new toys for it.

Samuel