View Full Version : Stop my from buying a DSLR, please.
Yes a *******ization of that old "take my wife, please joke"
Recently got a *ist DS and you know what as my first DSLR I really like it. My problem is that the K10D has dropped in price significantly (and into my 'wife won't kill me' range). So I need talking out of it. Really.
Tell me the Shake reduction is a gimmick and that it's noisy high ISO and the 10 MP vs. 6 MP doesn't mean anything in the real world. If this forum can whip up GAS it should help those in need of support too. :)
Nope I cant help. Sorry! I have just done almost exactly the same thing but with a Panasonic L1. To paraphrase an old quotation "All time is wasted thats not spent messing about with cameras."
RF-Addict
11-14-2007, 17:41
Sorry, can't help you - all the features you mentioned REALLY do make a difference. Go and get that K10D for Xmas.
photogdave
11-14-2007, 17:43
Sorry, but it's a fantastic camera. If you twisted my arm and forced me into a DSLR it would probably be the K10D and two or three of those sweet Limited primes.
You really can't beat this stuff for the price. I don't know about back east but here in Van the K10D is just over $700 - very tempting! My local shop stocks and even rents most of the Limiteds and the new fast zooms too!
Tough luck buddy.;)
I can't help either. I have a DSLR and I like it. I like my RFs, too. You can co-exist with both. You won't vaporize if you have both. If there's one you want, and it is in that "special" range. Go for it!
.
nextreme
11-14-2007, 17:47
Dropped in price eh.....
BTW, in body anti shake technology works very well. I have a minolta 7d.
Here is a link to the dreadful image quality you get with the Canon 40D :rolleyes: :
http://www.pbase.com/kirkh/40d&page=all
I had an istDS2 and liked it a lot. The 10D has a lot more to offer. Sean Reid will be reviewing it some time soon, so you might want to check it out.
Cheers,
Kirk
Geez,
I guess I should stop going to the pub to ask for help with my drinking problem, too. Yeah $700 CDN is a pretty nice price for something close to a Nikon D200...
crawdiddy
11-14-2007, 17:51
Recently got a *ist DS and you know what as my first DSLR I really like it.
Hate to be dense, but what is a *ist DS ?
Here is a link to the dreadful image quality you get with the Canon 40D :rolleyes: :
http://www.pbase.com/kirkh/40d&page=all
Cheers,
Kirk
Very nice, though methinks the photog has as much to do with it as the camera in this case. Pretty stunning IQ as well as composition there. If I got a 40D I wouldn't be able to get glass to do it justice. All those 'L' lenses would ruin me ;)
Recently got a *ist DS and you know what as my first DSLR I really like it.
Hate to be dense, but what is a *ist DS ?
It's Pentax's 2nd DSLR. 6 MP body that's sort of an entry-level to mid-range camera. It's about 3-4 years old. Maybe in Canon FD terms it was sort of the Canon A-1 of it's time?
Steve Bellayr
11-14-2007, 18:01
That is $700 w/o the lens. You are buying it because the price came down? If you don't own a Leica M6 then I'd put my money towards that camera. Why do you need shake reduction if you shoot at 125. Don't need it at 60. Buy a soft release for $15 and go down to 30 or even 15.
tedwhite
11-14-2007, 18:06
I have used the hell out of my Pentax istDS and it still works flawlessly after 3K images. As a photographer trained with film, I refrain from snapping away, as many will do with a DSLR, which accounts for the low count after nearly three years of use.
Will I get the K10D? Probably, though many Pentax aficionados tell me that with more megapixels you get more noise at higher ISO settings.
Seems like the solution is to keep the istDS for use in low light settings and use the K10D for everything else. I think the price for the K10D now is under $600?
Plus you get RAW and in-body image stabilization with the K10D.
And hey, CRAWDIDY - as an owner of a *istDS I can say without equivocation that it's the stupidest name ever given to a very, very good camera.
Ted
JoeFriday
11-14-2007, 18:10
lately I've been seeing the K10D with kit lens at around $650.. and yes, the shake reduction makes a very big difference in some situations
I've been looking very hard at that same Pentax and keep talking myself into buying it (then talking myself out of buying it.. it's in and out, all night long sometimes)
Kim Coxon
11-15-2007, 00:23
No can do! The K10 is a quantum improvement over the DS. I have the D and wasn't sure about the K10. I now have 2 K10 bodies. It is worth keeping the DS though. It has the pentaprism and is more compatible with some of the older Pentax kit such as TTL flash. (The K10 will only do P-TTL)
Kim
Yes a *******ization of that old "take my wife, please joke"
Recently got a *ist DS and you know what as my first DSLR I really like it. My problem is that the K10D has dropped in price significantly (and into my 'wife won't kill me' range). So I need talking out of it. Really.
Tell me the Shake reduction is a gimmick and that it's noisy high ISO and the 10 MP vs. 6 MP doesn't mean anything in the real world. If this forum can whip up GAS it should help those in need of support too. :)
I've been very tempted by the low price of these as well, and enjoyed my *ist DL a lot. I still have some nice K mount lenses, but am holding out to see how low the D40x and good glass for it goes.
photobizzz
11-15-2007, 01:46
That is $700 w/o the lens. You are buying it because the price came down? If you don't own a Leica M6 then I'd put my money towards that camera. Why do you need shake reduction if you shoot at 125. Don't need it at 60. Buy a soft release for $15 and go down to 30 or even 15.
Well I can give you one good reason I bought the K10D, I purchased a Pentax SMC 300/4 for $150, and I like to take wildlife photos with my SLR/DSLR and so I have a 450mm f4 image stabilized lens for $150. Not to mention the umpteen other functions like multiple image stacking (in camera) that cannot be performed on any rangefinder.
The "entry level" DSLRs are finally coming down to a reasonable price range. I too have been tempted again. To fight the urge though I have started to consider getting the Canon 35/1.4 L lens. Nothing like a $1000 lens to sober you up. I was a little disappointed in the price of Pentax's new 2.8 standard zooms. The price is not that much less at all than the Canon offering which has the IS in the lens. Both the Canon and Pentax though are supposed to be excellent.
Nothing like a $1000 lens to sober you up.
Isn't that the beauty of the diminutive K10 - The IS / VR system is built into the sensor. Does Pentax offer some fast primes in the 30mm range? If not, Sigma may.
photobizzz
11-15-2007, 02:38
I was a little disappointed in the price of Pentax's new 2.8 standard zooms. The price is not that much less at all than the Canon offering which has the IS in the lens. Both the Canon and Pentax though are supposed to be excellent.
I personally went with Tokina, I purchased a 20-35 2.8 ATX and 28-80 2.8 ATX for my zooms. I think I paid around $850 for both brand new.
B&H prices, the Pentax is about $900 compared to the Canon at $1000. It is happening slowly, but we are getting to the point where there will be excellent bodies at give away prices just offered so the manufacturers will be able to sell lenses. Just like the old day of the film Rebel and Elan series. Fast primes are still the best way to go, but you still pay a good bit for anything fast wider than 50mm.
Kim Coxon
11-15-2007, 03:56
The 31mm F1.8 Ltd is one of the best lenses Pentax has made. For manual focussing there are several very good 28/s's.
Kim
Isn't that the beauty of the diminutive K10 - The IS / VR system is built into the sensor. Does Pentax offer some fast primes in the 30mm range? If not, Sigma may.
djonesii
11-15-2007, 04:18
Sorry, there is no way to talk you out of a dSLR for birding, and sports ..... They are just too good at those applicaitons. For a carry around light camera that for me is really fun, try a RF! .... as the Brits say hourses for courses
( well the ryhme, damn u's )
Dave
Al Patterson
11-15-2007, 04:26
I'm still thinking of a K100 for web use. Sorry, but you should buy one, if you really want one.
Kim Coxon
11-15-2007, 04:26
The advantage of Pentax having the SR based in the body is that it works with all lenses including all the MF K lenses going back to the 70's and the M42 ones with an adapter. With the Canon system, you have to have an IS lens.;)
Kim
The "entry level" DSLRs are finally coming down to a reasonable price range. I too have been tempted again. To fight the urge though I have started to consider getting the Canon 35/1.4 L lens. Nothing like a $1000 lens to sober you up. I was a little disappointed in the price of Pentax's new 2.8 standard zooms. The price is not that much less at all than the Canon offering which has the IS in the lens. Both the Canon and Pentax though are supposed to be excellent.
tedwhite
11-15-2007, 05:12
Like Photobizz, I too have the 300/4 Super Takumar (incredible lens) that I bought also for $150. It has its own tripod mount and is ideal for bird photography with a DS or a K10D.
How did I justify buying a DSLR? Easy to answer. I can now provide clients with images on a CD or prints either the same day I shoot the job or the day after. They love it.
And, for photojournalism also. Last December I photographed a political event, went home, sent the newspaper the pics as email attachments. The editor said, "Yours got here first, so you get the check."
Ted
Ted
Do it, you'll have heaps of fun with it.
The cool thing about having a DSLR is that it takes the pressure off your rangefinder body to be your "do everything" camera. You can use it when it's the right tool for the job, or just because it gives you pleasure to use it, but you no longer have the stress of forcing the camera to do things it's no good at.
Here is a link to the dreadful image quality you get with the Canon 40D :rolleyes: :
http://www.pbase.com/kirkh/40d&page=all
Geeez man, terrible indeed ;)
photogdave
11-15-2007, 07:15
I've been very tempted by the low price of these as well, and enjoyed my *ist DL a lot. I still have some nice K mount lenses, but am holding out to see how low the D40x and good glass for it goes.
I don't understand. The D40x is no where near the camera that the K10D is. Then you have to shell out for additional glass, and it will be more expensive than Pentax especially if you want IS.
For the low price of a K10D you essentially get a D200 body with the ability to use all your K lenses and they've now become image stabilized!
Not to mention the cool Pentax features Nikon doesn't have like instant RAW button, 2 RAW modes, in-camera RAW processing, self-cleaning sensor etc.
Can you tell I like the Pentax?! :D
Think of all those lovely old Takamur lenses you will be able to use. Pentax give excellent support for legacy lens users, unlike Olympus.
The biggest Pentax lure, and I've never even shot with one, is the lovely line of compact prime lenses they offer for the cropped sensor cameras. It makes them unique in the industry.
Pherdinand
11-15-2007, 07:58
K10D is good.
SHake reduction is N O T a gimmick.
But you can't focus it manually.
Even if you have extremely good eyes and plenty of time.
My friend is sending it back to Pentax, because the manual focus is considerably misaligned. Not noticeable under f/5.6 so probably many people don't care, but at f/2 and closer focus, it's terrible.
photogdave
11-15-2007, 08:27
K10D is good.
SHake reduction is N O T a gimmick.
But you can't focus it manually.
Even if you have extremely good eyes and plenty of time.
My friend is sending it back to Pentax, because the manual focus is considerably misaligned. Not noticeable under f/5.6 so probably many people don't care, but at f/2 and closer focus, it's terrible.
Sounds like a problem with his specific body, not the camera model in general. I've shot with it and not experienced this problem.
Can't. I bought a D100 because it would mount a number of AF Nikkors I had (most of my Nikkors are MF, but I have several good AF lenses) and because I found one that was almost LNIB for $350. I wanted to put my toe in the water slowly. Big mistake - it's darned nice. I may upgrade when the D300 has finished knocking the stuffing out of D200 used prices...
shadowfox
11-15-2007, 08:39
Sorry, usually I would discourage people from buying stuff based on impulse, but at this point I am enamored with the M42 lenses and bodies.
A K10D with M42 to K adaptor will instantly give you access to thousands of *VERYGOOD* lenses out there, some of them are outrageously cheap.
Go ahead, realize my dream :)
Kim Coxon
11-15-2007, 10:01
I agree with Dave on this. I tend to use MF most of the time and I don't have a problem with either of my bodies. I suspect it is a rogue body. A bit like an RF patch being out really. ;)
Kim
But you can't focus it manually.
Even if you have extremely good eyes and plenty of time.
My friend is sending it back to Pentax, because the manual focus is considerably misaligned. Not noticeable under f/5.6 so probably many people don't care, but at f/2 and closer focus, it's terrible.
Kim Coxon
11-15-2007, 10:03
If you are talking about the Ltd's ie 31, 43 and 77, they are full frame lenses and work perfectly on the film bodies as well. ;)
Kim
The biggest Pentax lure, and I've never even shot with one, is the lovely line of compact prime lenses they offer for the cropped sensor cameras. It makes them unique in the industry.
Kim, right! Those, and the 21 f3.2 and 40 f2.8, which, I believe, are digital only lenses. Makes it mighty tempting to consider a Pentax body.
I think he's referring to the DA 21, DA 40 and DA 70 pancakes.
More support for the K10D - it is everything mentioned above, and more. The big thing about the K10D over the *ist DS (I have both) is the ergonomics and instant access to the full feature set through the improved controls.
Kim Coxon
11-15-2007, 11:52
Perhaps but the Ltd's are much better lenses. The 77/1.8 beats the 70 hands down. The 43 is a 1.9 and I use the LTM version on the M6 is very good. (The DA40 is based on the old M series pancake and was not one of Pentax's better offering. The 21 is OK but is beaten hands down bt the FA 20/2.8. Overall the DA are OK and very compact but aimed at the "mass market". The Ltds are much better and Give the Canon glass a good run for the money if not beating them at probably a more modest price.
Kim
I think he's referring to the DA 21, DA 40 and DA 70 pancakes.
More support for the K10D - it is everything mentioned above, and more. The big thing about the K10D over the *ist DS (I have both) is the ergonomics and instant access to the full feature set through the improved controls.
Sorry, usually I would discourage people from buying stuff based on impulse, but at this point I am enamored with the M42 lenses and bodies.
A K10D with M42 to K adaptor will instantly give you access to thousands of *VERYGOOD* lenses out there, some of them are outrageously cheap.
Go ahead, realize my dream :)
Shadowfox. I understand these sentiments. I have recently purchased the Panasonic L1. Part of the reason (as I justify it to myself) is that they have recently dropped radically in price here in Oz and because I knew that the 4/3 system cameras can use a wide range of M42 and other lenses with adapters. As I have about 20 Takumar lenses and perhaps half as many Nikon mount lenses, I have now purchased the appropriate adapters on eBay and am anxiously awaiting their arrival. So far I have not had buyers remorse (my usual state of mind occasioned by a bad conscience after a purchase.) Perhaps part of the reason for this happy state of affairs is that the kit lens which came with the camera is a 14-50 Leica with image stabilisation that is said to be worth the price I paid for the entire kit. It certainly is a nice lens.
However I cannot wait to try out my manual focus lenses. The following site has lots of info about MF lenses on digital cameras - a growing niche by the looks of it. BTW the Takumars are particularly good for this as they all have a stop down lever which makes the process a little less painful and I have a reasonable selection of preset lenses which are even easier to use. I was a little apprehensive about the idea of using stop down metering figuring that it would make composition hard, then I realised that I do it with my Spotmatic all the time, so hopefully it will not be too problematic.
http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewforum.php?id=2&p=1
yeah, I really don't want a DLSR but and don't want to raw, but do want something that will make nice sharp posters and the film prices are getting out of hand.
BTW, even with all the extra features of the Pentax, the Nikon is rated for higher dynamic range on dpreview. Don't know how that really translates to better photos, but it seems like a good thing.
I don't understand. The D40x is no where near the camera that the K10D is. Then you have to shell out for additional glass, and it will be more expensive than Pentax especially if you want IS.
For the low price of a K10D you essentially get a D200 body with the ability to use all your K lenses and they've now become image stabilized!
Not to mention the cool Pentax features Nikon doesn't have like instant RAW button, 2 RAW modes, in-camera RAW processing, self-cleaning sensor etc.
Can you tell I like the Pentax?! :D
Kim Coxon
11-16-2007, 01:12
Interesting but depressingreview have always had a "down" on Pentax.
Kim
yeah, I really don't want a DLSR but and don't want to raw, but do want something that will make nice sharp posters and the film prices are getting out of hand.
BTW, even with all the extra features of the Pentax, the Nikon is rated for higher dynamic range on dpreview. Don't know how that really translates to better photos, but it seems like a good thing.
Michael M
11-16-2007, 02:37
Go on an buy the DSLR, horses for courses. I use a EOS 5D for landscapes, the R2A for street and friends and a Hassy for portrait work. Works well together : ) of course i'm clos to bankrupt : )
Greets Mike
IGMeanwell
11-16-2007, 02:52
yeah, I really don't want a DLSR but and don't want to raw, but do want something that will make nice sharp posters and the film prices are getting out of hand.
BTW, even with all the extra features of the Pentax, the Nikon is rated for higher dynamic range on dpreview. Don't know how that really translates to better photos, but it seems like a good thing.
Amp Guy
I am a little biased towards Nikon....
but I will say after upgrading to the Fuji S5... I really am impressed with the JPEGS (though I do shoot mostly RAW).... the colors are very pleasing
Sharpness will require a bump in the internal menu, I can tell you my D80s files are sharper straight out of the camera
but the Dynamic Range of the S5 is unmatched and for anyone who wants a great JPEG shooter with a latitude close to film ... spend the extra money on the S5
I uploaded a few RAF files (Fuji RAW) a few weeks ago for a friend to play with, just to show how much room you have even on a high contrast day move around with
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KC4K7P2F
Anyone who wants can play with these files.... well as long as they are still up (warning, its a big file)
Just when I thought I had talked myself into delaying getting the K10D for my old Pentax and Takumar lenses, I read this thread.
tedwhite
11-16-2007, 05:19
Go do it anyway, David. I don't believe you'll regret it. Using my 50/4 Super Macro Takumar on my DS I photographed some seed pods for a BLM research guy and he said they far exceeded his expectations. If you already have the SPII and the Me Super you already have some lenses.
I would suggest you skip the kit lens they'll try to sell you with the body and get the Pentax 16-45 DA ED (I hope I got that last part right). Reviewers regard it highly and I use it most of the time. In 35mm terms it would be a 24-67 1/2 zoom. That range covers most situations.
KIM COXON: Yes, I agree about DPreview. It, and most photo mags are in thrall to Canon.
Even the US mag Consumer Reports, which does cameras frequently, acts as if Pentax cameras didn't exist. They usually list only Canon, Nikon, and Sony when they do DSLR reviews.
Ken Ford
11-16-2007, 05:32
I just Googled the prices on the K10D. Madre de Dios!!! I can't believe you can get them that inexpensively!
I'm firmly committed to Nikon, but if all my Nikon gear disappeared today I'd probably replace the DSLR stuff at least with Pentax. The K10D is one tasty body, and I do like Pentax glass. I had a chance to play with a K10D/battery grip/kit lens Sunday and was reminded just how right Pentax got this one.
Does Pentax do a 80-200 2.8 comparable to Canikon? 95% of my railroad stuff is done with one.
Heh. Misery loves company, David.
Thanks for the input, all. I'm giving in, but in January.
Hopefully there'll be some K10D stock after New Year's. I'm going on a trip and plan to use my DS until then. Using the CR-3Vs while on travel and some Panasonic Oxyrides as backup will really save me from bringing extra rechargeables and a charger.
I do have a DS for the trip, and plan on bring a nice light kit of SMC lenses. The DS I really am happy with the way it works with MF lenses, and the size is great (for me). I've held the K10D and in my hands feels better than the D200.
Cheers,
-Amit
Kim Coxon
11-16-2007, 05:41
They did an 80-200/2.8 FA that comes up not too infrequently on eBay but it is expensive and like all the FA lenses covers the full format so can be used on film bodies as well. It is also highly regarded. http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/lenses/zooms/long/FA80-200f2.8.html
The have also just brought out a 50-135/2.8 DA* lens which is digital only. With the crop factor this equates to 80-200 in full frame terms. I have just got one of these and again it is a very good lens. http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/lenses/zooms/long/DA50-135f2.8.html
There are also relatively fast 200 and 300 primes due to be released soon.
Kim
I just Googled the prices on the K10D. Madre de Dios!!! I can't believe you can get them that inexpensively!
I'm firmly committed to Nikon, but if all my Nikon gear disappeared today I'd probably replace the DSLR stuff at least with Pentax. The K10D is one tasty body, and I do like Pentax glass. I had a chance to play with a K10D/battery grip/kit lens Sunday and was reminded just how right Pentax got this one.
Does Pentax do a 80-200 2.8 comparable to Canikon? 95% of my railroad stuff is done with one.
tedwhite
11-16-2007, 05:57
Ken:
I have the made-for-Pentax-DSLR 50-200, which would be 75 to 300 in 35mm film camera equivalent. Ought to be close enough for your railroad photo needs.
photogdave
11-16-2007, 07:11
yeah, I really don't want a DLSR but and don't want to raw, but do want something that will make nice sharp posters and the film prices are getting out of hand.
BTW, even with all the extra features of the Pentax, the Nikon is rated for higher dynamic range on dpreview. Don't know how that really translates to better photos, but it seems like a good thing.
I agree with Kim and Pete. DPReview is no longer (in my opinion) a trustworthy, unbiased review site. Ever since they started trashing Panasonic with unfair high noise reports I've lost faith in them.
The Fuji S5 is the ultimate DSLR for your Nikon glass is you want the best dynamic range, colors and skin tones. I've shot with the S2, S3 and now S5 with my Nikon glass and have always been very impressed with the IQ. The cameras always used to be slow the S5 allows you to shoot at a good pace. Here in Canada they still sell for less than a D200.
This not helping.
One of the Takumars I do not have that I have always wanted is the 50/4 Super Macro Takumar that Ted mentions. My favorite camera store in town has had a nice one for around $60 to $70. It has been there for at least 6 months.
Sounds like I may have to go see if the Macro is still there.
I hate going there though. Last time I was there I picked up a beautiful looking Vivitar Series 1 80-210 (second version) for $60. While I was there I tried it out on the K10D. That should work real well for shooting my daughter's high shcool soccer team this spring.
Go do it anyway, David. I don't believe you'll regret it. Using my 50/4 Super Macro Takumar on my DS I photographed some seed pods for a BLM research guy and he said they far exceeded his expectations. If you already have the SPII and the Me Super you already have some lenses.
I would suggest you skip the kit lens they'll try to sell you with the body and get the Pentax 16-45 DA ED (I hope I got that last part right). Reviewers regard it highly and I use it most of the time. In 35mm terms it would be a 24-67 1/2 zoom. That range covers most situations.
This thread is really starting to tempt me as well. I have a few old Takumar lenses and had been thinking that the Pentax K10D would be fun to use with them.
Hey Ted, I have a question for you. You mentioned the Pentax 16-45 lens which I believe is an f4.0 lens. I read a recommendation somewhere to instead get the Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8 EX DC Macro Autofocus lens since it's faster. Now, my recollection is that the Pentax lenses as a general rule are superior to the Sigma lenses. So, my question is simply whether you have any thoughts, views or opinions about the relative merits of these two lenses for use with the Pentax K10D? (so much for a simple question, huh? :o )
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you, or anyone else, cares to share.
-Randy
The Fuji S5, new F mount Voightlanders, D3, old F3 film bodies, etc. are why I want to do the Nikon thing if I do it at all. I like dpreviews, not perfect, but usually pretty good info. IMHO.
I agree with Kim and Pete. DPReview is no longer (in my opinion) a trustworthy, unbiased review site. Ever since they started trashing Panasonic with unfair high noise reports I've lost faith in them.
The Fuji S5 is the ultimate DSLR for your Nikon glass is you want the best dynamic range, colors and skin tones. I've shot with the S2, S3 and now S5 with my Nikon glass and have always been very impressed with the IQ. The cameras always used to be slow the S5 allows you to shoot at a good pace. Here in Canada they still sell for less than a D200.
I must admit to having given serious thought to the Fuji range of SLR cameras. In appearance I actually prefer the S3 to the latest version (love the built in vertical hand grip) but in performance I think they all have something going for them in their color rendition. I certainly do not mind a slight amount of softness in photos as I have to tweak my D70s shots in Photoshop anyway. So what if I have to ratchet the USM slide up a tiny bit when the color is so great.
However, the one thing that bugs me about the "lower" end Nikons (well anything below D200) is that they refuse to meter with manual lenses. Surely Nikon could have added this functionality. I believe that the Fujis have the same limitation. Too bad. And of course because of the Nikon register distance I dont think there is any other marque of lens that can be used on Nikon bodies. If this were not so, I would pay the extra and be damned and buy a Fuji. These factors influenced me to buy a Panasonic L1 as my second digital body. The camera will not only meter with Nikon MF glass but it will also shoot with non AI lenses of which I have a few. Even the D200 does not do this. I will keep my D70s for now and will wait till I receive the lens adapters to use my Takumars and manual Nikons on the Panasonic and decide then what to do. I still think the D70s is a fine camera but the appeal of being able to stick a piece of 40 year old glass on the front of a digital body is something that appeals mightily.
IGMeanwell
11-16-2007, 19:14
I must admit to having given serious thought to the Fuji range of SLR cameras. In appearance I actually prefer the S3 to the latest version (love the built in vertical hand grip) but in performance I think they all have something going for them in their color rendition. I certainly do not mind a slight amount of softness in photos as I have to tweak my D70s shots in Photoshop anyway. So what if I have to ratchet the USM slide up a tiny bit when the color is so great.
However, the one thing that bugs me about the "lower" end Nikons (well anything below D200) is that they refuse to meter with manual lenses. Surely Nikon could have added this functionality. I believe that the Fujis have the same limitation. Too bad. And of course because of the Nikon register distance I dont think there is any other marque of lens that can be used on Nikon bodies. If this were not so, I would pay the extra and be damned and buy a Fuji. These factors influenced me to buy a Panasonic L1 as my second digital body. The camera will not only meter with Nikon MF glass but it will also shoot with non AI lenses of which I have a few. Even the D200 does not do this. I will keep my D70s for now and will wait till I receive the lens adapters to use my Takumars and manual Nikons on the Panasonic and decide then what to do. I still think the D70s is a fine camera but the appeal of being able to stick a piece of 40 year old glass on the front of a digital body is something that appeals mightily.
The Fuji S5 meters with all Nikon lenses ... even the AI-AIS manual focus
In fact it has a little electronic rangefinder for manual focusing ... though pre-AI lenses are not necessarily recommended to put on the D200/S5 body
However, the one thing that bugs me about the "lower" end Nikons (well anything below D200) is that they refuse to meter with manual lenses. Surely Nikon could have added this functionality.
Peter, I agree totally. They could have at only marginally extra cost in the volumes they are producing. After holding out for a couple of years for a D200 and collecting a fairly nice collection of Nikon glass to complement my F3 and FM2n I gave up. Sure the D200s have come down in price but they're still 2x the cost of a K10D. The D80 with AI lens metering would have suited my needs perfectly. I can only think that the Nikon Product Managers consciously wanted users to buy new G and AF-S lenses and not build the most versatile camera for their lower and mid-range cameras. But still they market them as being backward compatible in mounts, which is only a half-truth with the D40/80.
-Amit
Amit - are you aware that the K10D current has a $100 rebate good through 1/31/08?
B&H sells the K10D body for $699 - subtract the rebate and it is $599 USD.
Just buy a little dslr and a 2/28 lens and you're on. It's small, light, takes loads of high quality pictures, spares you the time and expense of lab processing. It is effective and efficient, and the rest is up to you.
I just set aside my CV 35 Nokton, Elan 7ne and Canon VT and I think I may list them for sale to finance a DSLR. Gotta sell if I want to buy....
and the 6mp are fine, 10mp is too much noise. First Pentax DSLR to hit sub $300 will possibly be my next rear lens cap for my K mount 35/1.9.
Amit - are you aware that the K10D current has a $100 rebate good through 1/31/08?
B&H sells the K10D body for $699 - subtract the rebate and it is $599 USD.
Amit - are you aware that the K10D current has a $100 rebate good through 1/31/08?
B&H sells the K10D body for $699 - subtract the rebate and it is $599 USD.
Andrew, don't rub it in :) I'm in Canada where there is no rebate. That 100 makes a lot of difference to me, but I'm hoping by January Pentax Canada will follow suit. There is just no reason for any price differential between Canada and the US...
Nuno, Totally agree that a relatively fast 28 on a DSLR is the way to go. I have been spending at least $50 a month on processing alone. Throw in film costs and scanning time (then touch up if I care about the shot) and well, I'm moving away from colour film. Delta 3200 is still untouchable though...
Cheers,
-Amit
tedwhite
11-17-2007, 18:20
Amit:
With my Pentax DSLR I have turned quite a number of color images into b/w images with fairly good results It think it can be done in camera, but I'v always done it in photoshop.
Also, you can set the ISO up to at least 1600 and noise is not bad at all. At ISO 800 and slower I can't see any noise at all.
Ted
photogdave
11-17-2007, 19:55
Andrew, don't rub it in :) I'm in Canada where there is no rebate. That 100 makes a lot of difference to me, but I'm hoping by January Pentax Canada will follow suit. There is just no reason for any price differential between Canada and the US...
I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with you on this. There are plenty of reasons why there should be a price differential:
Canada is a much smaller market than the U.S. The entire photographic market for Canada is the same as just the state of California. I've even been told that B&H alone does more sales than all Canadian retailers combined! This mean that U.S. suppliers (Pentax USA) get a higher volume discount than Canadian suppliers (Pentax Canada).
Pentax Canada buys their product from Japan based on the volume it can move in its market and how the Canadian dollar is doing against the Yen. The U.S. dollar does not come into the equation.
Canada is a different country than the U.S. Our importers have different import taxes, duties, tariffs etc. to deal with. It is also more expensive to ship these products between their landing point to the distributers' warehouses, and then to the retailers.
All this adds up to a higher per unit cost for Canada than the U.S. There is no reason that Canadian suppliers and retailers should be losing money to match U.S. pricing. With a mere $100 difference (after a rebate which not everyone receives in the end) the price is so close it's not worth moaning about, especially considering that if you buy in Canada you get full warrantee coverage, local dealer support and the satisfaction of supporting your own economy and local retailer! :)
This is not meant to be critical of you or anyone else, I'm just concerned that not everyone (including our own brain-dead Finance Minister) are aware of all the facts when they discuss price differences between Canada and the USA.
Nuno, Totally agree that a relatively fast 28 on a DSLR is the way to go. I have been spending at least $50 a month on processing alone. Throw in film costs and scanning time (then touch up if I care about the shot) and well, I'm moving away from colour film. Delta 3200 is still untouchable though...
Cheers,
-Amit
Now I develop my remaining colour film in hc-110 to get b&w negatives, and use my dslr to get colour images. I haven't given up b&w film though. It's fun to develop and process and gives me what I don't find in digital.
Cheers,
nuno
K100D Super at amzn body only is down to $475 - 100 rebate = $375.
I've used the 18-55 kit lens, and I doubt many would use it, slow, and also slow focusing and built very cheaply.
Pentax has done canada rebates before, and probably will again on the dslr stuff, here's an interesting page of ca rebate info.:
http://www.digitalreview.ca/cams/DigitalSLR_pricing.shtml
Andrew, don't rub it in :) I'm in Canada where there is no rebate. That 100 makes a lot of difference to me, but I'm hoping by January Pentax Canada will follow suit. There is just no reason for any price differential between Canada and the US...
Nuno, Totally agree that a relatively fast 28 on a DSLR is the way to go. I have been spending at least $50 a month on processing alone. Throw in film costs and scanning time (then touch up if I care about the shot) and well, I'm moving away from colour film. Delta 3200 is still untouchable though...
Cheers,
-Amit
No offense taken, and you point about Canada being a market equivalent to California is well taken. But, cameras in both countries are both sourced from Japan. Also in talking to the Pentax rep at a Camera show today in Ottawa, he told me that Pentaxes sales in Canada per capita are the highest of any of Pentax's markets in the world. His reason for not offering the rebate in Canada was that Pentax didn't have to - sales were doing just fine. It made sense to me, we Canadians tend to be a little more value conscious as a whole, so not surprised that Pentax does well here.
Also agree with you that US/Canada prices are not as cut an dried
as just the exchange rate.
I'm not particularly into cross-border shopping so would end up buying and supporting local retailers in any case, the smaller the shop the better.
Cheers,
-Amit
I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with you on this. There are plenty of reasons why there should be a price differential:
Canada is a much smaller market than the U.S. The entire photographic market for Canada is the same as just the state of California. I've even been told that B&H alone does more sales than all Canadian retailers combined! This mean that U.S. suppliers (Pentax USA) get a higher volume discount than Canadian suppliers (Pentax Canada).
Pentax Canada buys their product from Japan based on the volume it can move in its market and how the Canadian dollar is doing against the Yen. The U.S. dollar does not come into the equation.
Canada is a different country than the U.S. Our importers have different import taxes, duties, tariffs etc. to deal with. It is also more expensive to ship these products between their landing point to the distributers' warehouses, and then to the retailers.
All this adds up to a higher per unit cost for Canada than the U.S. There is no reason that Canadian suppliers and retailers should be losing money to match U.S. pricing. With a mere $100 difference (after a rebate which not everyone receives in the end) the price is so close it's not worth moaning about, especially considering that if you buy in Canada you get full warrantee coverage, local dealer support and the satisfaction of supporting your own economy and local retailer! :)
This is not meant to be critical of you or anyone else, I'm just concerned that not everyone (including our own brain-dead Finance Minister) are aware of all the facts when they discuss price differences between Canada and the USA.
I also think that many manufacuters take advantage of samller countries like Canada and Australia by charging higher prices. A famous (in Australia) example of this has been with CDs and DVDs. For many years, and until recently, in Australia we paid much much more than in the USA (and possibly Europe.) There was evidence of price gouging even though you could argue that there are reasons why some small premium might be appropriate to set up and maintain distribution channels. In fact this was enforced by manufacturers who often had exclusive distributors in this country who could charge whatever they wanted due to a lack of competition.
I think the same applies for cameras and photographic equipment. Even leaving aside exchange rates (and the Australian $ is at a record high) this is often not really well reflected in pricing. That is beginning to break down due to the influence of internet selling but we still get pasted.
Anyone ever compare the K100D Super with the K10D (6 vs 10MP)? I'm curious at what print size the 10MP shows an advantage at, if any? 8x10, 11x14, 16x20?
B&H has the K100D Super body only for $369 with rebate (I've used the kit lens on my *ist DL, and won't be needing it). Will the 6MP Pentax models go lower, or just get phased out of retail and onto ebay?
Kim Coxon
11-20-2007, 02:44
The images from the K10 are better. However, the biggest difference, IMHO, is not the number of pixels but the finder. The IstD, DS and the K10 all have Pentaprism finders. All the others have a Pentamirror system which while OK for AF is far inferior as soon as you try to MF.
Kim
Anyone ever compare the K100D Super with the K10D (6 vs 10MP)? I'm curious at what print size the 10MP shows an advantage at, if any? 8x10, 11x14, 16x20?
B&H has the K100D Super body only for $369 with rebate (I've used the kit lens on my *ist DL, and won't be needing it). Will the 6MP Pentax models go lower, or just get phased out of retail and onto ebay?
Tom Harrell
11-20-2007, 03:28
This has been and interesting thread to me since I have been trying to figure out which DSLR to purchase. I have really been curious about the K10D and can see some merit to the camera. However the majority of my equipment has been Canon FD, FL and EOS. Therefore I wonder if I should not choose to stick with Canon to enable using the glass that I already have, or cross over to Pentax and try to find good quality new/used Pentax glass. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Tom
Kim Coxon
11-20-2007, 03:38
Hi Tom,
Canon changed their mount so the older lenses are not compatible with the dSLRs. Nikon and perhaps more so Pentax have kept a better compatibility with the same mount. Even if you got a Canon dSLR, I suspect that most of your lenses would not fir anyway.
Kim
This has been and interesting thread to me since I have been trying to figure out which DSLR to purchase. I have really been curious about the K10D and can see some merit to the camera. However the majority of my equipment has been Canon FD, FL and EOS. Therefore I wonder if I should not choose to stick with Canon to enable using the glass that I already have, or cross over to Pentax and try to find good quality new/used Pentax glass. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Tom
Al Patterson
11-20-2007, 03:59
This has been and interesting thread to me since I have been trying to figure out which DSLR to purchase. I have really been curious about the K10D and can see some merit to the camera. However the majority of my equipment has been Canon FD, FL and EOS. Therefore I wonder if I should not choose to stick with Canon to enable using the glass that I already have, or cross over to Pentax and try to find good quality new/used Pentax glass. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Tom
Kim is right. Your FD and FL glass will not work on a Canon DSLR.
Tom Harrell
11-20-2007, 04:10
Thanks, Kim and Al. I wasn't sure if there was an adapter made to adapt FD lenses to Pentax or not and I only have two EOS lenses. Probably the best thing to do now is go to a local camera store that has the cameras I am interested and actually see how they handle and fit my hands. Perhaps a new brand of camera would wet my appetite as well. Thanks for your thoughts!
Tom
LeicaTom
11-20-2007, 04:40
That is $700 w/o the lens. You are buying it because the price came down? If you don't own a Leica M6 then I'd put my money towards that camera. Why do you need shake reduction if you shoot at 125. Don't need it at 60. Buy a soft release for $15 and go down to 30 or even 15.
I`m with Steve....go buy a Leica M6 :)
Tom
As far as picking up good quality inexpensive Pentax glass, I have had pretty good luck. Just checking out fleamarkets, camera stores, and a couple of times on Ebay. Even asking one of the local repair shops netted me the owner's 28mm f3.5 plus other goodies for not very much.
By the way, a nice refund check arrived yesterday that my wife said would have to get here before she said she would get me the K10D.
So I know what I'm getting for Christmas!!!!!!!!
And I won't have to unload any of my Leica gear like I thought I would!!!
tedwhite
11-20-2007, 05:27
Right now I'm sticking with my istDS because of its pentaprism until I can get a chance to look through a K10D or K100D, and believe me, the Pentax lenses are outstanding (see "Detail, Car Wash, Douglas, AZ" in My Photos).
Ted
I`m with Steve....go buy a Leica M6 :)
Tom
I took my M6 out thinking terrible thought. I can't sell it, it is just too "right."
I have a bunch of other stuff for sale, but the M6 stays.
Thanks, Kim and Al. I wasn't sure if there was an adapter made to adapt FD lenses to Pentax or not and I only have two EOS lenses. Probably the best thing to do now is go to a local camera store that has the cameras I am interested and actually see how they handle and fit my hands. Perhaps a new brand of camera would wet my appetite as well. Thanks for your thoughts!
Tom
Tom, I am in a similar place, small EOS kit wanting a DSLR. I think once I raise the funds I will be going for a Pentax. Overall I am confident with the quality of both Canon and Pentax (Sorry, can't go Nikon thought they too are very attractive, just can't, and won't go away from a real camera company so no Sony.....). However you judge the need for anti shake features, with the Pentax it is there for all lenses. I like the features of both the 40d and K10d, but the Pentax is less expensive. And the backwards lens compatibility means there are tons of less expensive excellent lenses that can be used. I am leaning Pentax right now. If I had more of an investment in Canon glass I would be thinking differently, but I am in a place I can be flexible.
This is good info., as I recall with my DL, the pentamirror was fine and bright enough, but I could not focus manually well like a Nikon or Canon SLR. I thought it was due to the focusing screen they used.
If you think the K10 is better, even with 8x10 and smaller, maybe that's a good reason to wait although I was always pleased with 8x10 JPG prints out of the DL.
My main use would be manual focus, so if the K100D doesn't have any better screen than the old DL for manual focus, then that's a very good reason to wait.
Thanks for pointing this out.
The images from the K10 are better. However, the biggest difference, IMHO, is not the number of pixels but the finder. The IstD, DS and the K10 all have Pentaprism finders. All the others have a Pentamirror system which while OK for AF is far inferior as soon as you try to MF.
Kim
greyhoundman
11-20-2007, 07:09
Change the focus screen to a Katzeye.
I usually make my own. I like split screens. :)
$95, for dslr stuff is pricey. G-man, you should come out with your own line at a lower price if possible.
Change the focus screen to a Katzeye.
I usually make my own. I like split screens. :)
greyhoundman
11-20-2007, 08:50
You take advantage of the $100.00 off rebate, then buy the Katzeye screen.
I blogged my method of doing a screen.
I won't go into the aftermath. :(
Kim Coxon
11-20-2007, 11:04
True, the screen would be better but you are still left with the problem of the Penta-mirror. With the K10, the view with the standard screen is probably similar to the K100 with the Katseye so you could put the $100 toward the upgrade. With the Katseye, the K10 is yet better still!. ;)
Kim
Tom Harrell
11-21-2007, 02:24
Tom, I am in a similar place, small EOS kit wanting a DSLR. I think once I raise the funds I will be going for a Pentax. Overall I am confident with the quality of both Canon and Pentax (Sorry, can't go Nikon thought they too are very attractive, just can't, and won't go away from a real camera company so no Sony.....). However you judge the need for anti shake features, with the Pentax it is there for all lenses. I like the features of both the 40d and K10d, but the Pentax is less expensive. And the backwards lens compatibility means there are tons of less expensive excellent lenses that can be used. I am leaning Pentax right now. If I had more of an investment in Canon glass I would be thinking differently, but I am in a place I can be flexible.
Very sound advice for sure! I do have some Nikon lenses but I'm not to keen on Nikon digital cameras for some reason. I bought a Nikon digital camera for my lady friend a few years ago and the thing about drove her nuts with menu options. She finally gave up and I use it now. It really takes getting used to.
As you stated the anti shake for "all" lenses, and the backwards lens compatibility would be very helpful.
Tom
Well,
This thread was started late last year, some good responses; the end of the saga was that when I got back from my big trip, no new K10Ds were to be had. The new K20D was out and at $1300+ no bargain at all. After some monitoring of the pentax forum, I got a used K10D for a reasonable amount.
Bottom line: it was worth it, I like my DS for its size and weight for sure, but the K10D is more responsive and at ISOs to 400 just amazing image quality. The shake reduction really works. I do have some focus issues, but will tackle that with a firmware fix hopefully.
M42 lenses never looked so good. Here are some samples if you're interested: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aanandi/
The few shots posted from April are from the K10D. The multiple exposure mode is fantastic. I love double exposures in camera and while not as nice as the lever on a Nikon F3, still pretty cool.
Cheers,
-Amit
A dslr plus old m42 lenses can be more fun than an expensive m8 and lenses.
But won't substitute an m6, summicron and film.
Pherdinand
05-15-2008, 01:41
antishake is GOOD... but it does not help against subject motion, therefore canNOT replace a good fast lens. It only helps shaky hands.
Do you want a bulky noisy machine that "thinks for you"? (sorry this is actually canon's commercial not pentax's) Do you want to carry batteries or chargers always, to increase bulk even further, because "just in case" will mean once per day you will lose battery power?
Do you want to end up looking through a dark tunnel and figuring out how many pixels your subject will have? Do you want the autofocus deciding which part of the scene is important? DO you want a misaligned focusing screen so you also can't use manual focus, unless you send it back for realignment?
Do you want to take 2000 shots and then spend a full weekend going through them editing out all the garbage? Do you want "card error" messages? Do you want a multisegment meter that pretends to know everything but still is less capable than a simple incident handheld meter if the situation is a bit trickier than 13% gray? Do you want to use -0.7 stop exposure conpensation constantly, because the meter would make sure your highlights are always just nice white blobs?
Do you want to realize in half a year that your camera is not "good enough
anymore, although it still works as "good" as when you bought it, and by this, get into the megapixel hunting game?
And, most important: DO you want to miss the fun of developing black and white film and/or the excitement of waiting for the lab results?
So I need talking out of it. Really.
Tell me the Shake reduction is a gimmick and that it's noisy high ISO and the 10 MP vs. 6 MP doesn't mean anything in the real world. If this forum can whip up GAS it should help those in need of support too. :)
I don't have shake reduction, so it must be a gimmick, but high ISO in colour is a waste of time, see here:
http://www.hett.org/gallery2/d/9427-2/wien0308-47.jpg
Ken Ford
05-15-2008, 05:05
I don't have shake reduction, so it must be a gimmick, but high ISO in colour is a waste of time, see here:
http://www.hett.org/gallery2/d/9427-2/wien0308-47.jpg
Awful. Just awful.
;)
Ken Ford
05-15-2008, 05:15
Really, the ability to boost ISO at will and chimp proper exposure in tough lighting is totally worthless.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59495&stc=1&d=1210857149
bmattock
05-15-2008, 06:51
Really, the ability to boost ISO at will and chimp proper exposure in tough lighting is totally worthless.
I really like that photograph!
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