View Full Version : viability of m8 for weddings...
emraphoto
10-26-2007, 19:56
allright folks... the groundwork first. i HAVE shot weddings. i used to shoot them on a regular basis but then my schedule kind of got in the way. i have also shot in a studio environment for about 8 years. i do have a good foundation when it comes to shooting people.
what i'm currently pondering is if it's really viable to shoot weddings on a regular basis on the m8 (my schedule has kind of thinned out as of late). i had pretty much committed myself to shooting with an m8, an r-d1s body, a vc 351.2, a vc 15mm heliar, a 50mm 'cron, a 75mm heliar and a pair of sf-24 d's (of course throw in a bagful of cards, a storage device, gaggle of battery's etc.) BUT the last few day's i have been second guessing the viability of said set-up. my other option was a 5d, a 30 or 40d as a back-up, a couple of 580's and the usual stable of glass.
i haven't owned a dslr in a fairly long time and have been quite comitted to rangefinders but i can't really afford to bugger the decision up (read: my wife will kill me) thus i want to be very sure it's a sound one.
i shot weddings on two contax g2's, a strobo bracket, couple of sb-24's and a mamiya 645 for quite some time and quite enjoyed the g2's HOWEVER they were both EXTREMELY reliable and of course had AUTOFOCUS.
is anyone shooting full time with the m8?? weddings??? care to throw your two cents in??? i would be extremely appreciative!!!
i plan on purchasing all my gear over the next week or two and really want to make sure i make a sound (and not gear lust) decision.
merci
john
jan normandale
10-26-2007, 20:31
take a look at the results GabrielMA gets with his M8, that might be helpful. He also has a blog so you should find some shots with it there too.
Good luck.
emraphoto
10-27-2007, 08:46
thanx jan (insert padded letters here)
John..
I know at least one photographer (maybe 2) that use the M8 for weddings. I myself am considering one to go along with the 5D.
Dave
emraphoto
10-27-2007, 09:39
if im shooting raw is that such a big concern? wb i mean
if im shooting raw is that such a big concern? wb i mean
Good point John.
I know that even the 5D can't get it bang on every time and the changes in lighting during a full day of wedding work means that using auto WB may be "ok" for some shots and totally blow others.
I was considering the M8 for pure B&W work anyway and everyone I've read has said that for that, the M8 excels.
Dave
emraphoto
10-27-2007, 09:58
i was kind of leaning the same way dave... the m8 would be pure b+w... the r-d1s was going to handle the colour.
i really rarely, and i mean rarely shoot jpef anymore so i would be comfortable dealing with wb issues afterwards.
Yep..
I don't think I've ever shot jpeg except for a P&S camera.
My idea is that the M8 would be used for some portraits, getting ready shots, and some of the ceremony. My 5D's would do the detail work, groups, and help out with the ceremony and reception.
But ya.. strictly B&W with the M8.. colour with the 5D.
Dave
The only weddings I've shot were for friends, and they always had a pro hired to do the traditional stuff, I was there mostly for candids. That said, if you've shot weddings before with a film M camera, that's pretty much how it's going to be with an M8. If you haven't, I sure suggest you rent or borrow one and try it out before you commit that much money.
emraphoto
10-27-2007, 10:30
thanx ben but i have worked and shot on film m's, film and digital rangefinders for some time now.
I'm a professional wedding photographer and have lots of experience in shooting weddings with film M's and Canon Pro DSLR's. I'd love to shoot with the M8, but whilst I consider it to be a great camera, I don't consider it to be reliable at all.
My view is that delivering the goods is paramount, and dual card cameras are essential for me (I know that most don't shoot dual card) as telling the bride there are no images - it happens with digital ...... is just not on the agenda.
If the M8 was reliable, I would introduce it into the kit bag and start shooting the non-essential shots to build confidence. I need to say that I do not have personal experience in anything more than a demo with the M8, so i may be concerned over nothing, but it does appear to me that only a fool would turn up at a wedding with just an M8, or even two of them. I would have no real concern if I found that the MP, or my Canon II N, was the only camera I had on the day.
It's a great pity, because I really enjoy the results from my MP, but when taking good money it's my responsibility to reduce risk. They insure for Professional Indemnity here and compensation claims are made if you fail to deliver the goods. You'd get spanked if the groom turned up in Court with a list of internet threads on the M8's poor reliability and the insurance company would walk away from you, I expect.
What would be your backup camera? Another M8?
Richard Marks
10-27-2007, 12:10
I think the M8 is pretty reliable. Actually just done a fashion shoot this afternoon. It kept up with the action very nicely. Had an M6 in the bag though!!
My biggest reservation is actually the flash. I use the SF24 for fill if necessary, but wish there was something a bit more flexible.
IIRC, Sean Reid uses an M8 to shoot weddings.
Michiel Fokkema
10-27-2007, 13:05
I think the M8 is pretty reliable. Actually just done a fashion shoot this afternoon. It kept up with the action very nicely. Had an M6 in the bag though!!
My biggest reservation is actually the flash. I use the SF24 for fill if necessary, but wish there was something a bit more flexible.
A metz flash is much more flexible and works on a M8 with the right foot.
cheers,
Michiel Fokkema
Richard Marks
10-27-2007, 13:35
A metz flash is much more flexible and works on a M8 with the right foot.
cheers,
Michiel Fokkema
Hi Michiel
Im sure a Metz would be a bit more flexible, its just that it would totally unballance the camera. Also Im not sure the TTL interface in the M8 is all that great. This is one area where it really can not touch a Nikon/ Canon speedlite set up.
Out of interest, does it still do the big 'pre flash' with a Metz on TTL
Richard
emraphoto
10-27-2007, 14:41
"What would be your backup camera? Another M8?"
r-d1s and a back-up back-up m6ttl
etrigan63
10-27-2007, 14:45
Invest in an Expodisc and shoot custom WB if you are worried or want to cut down on PP work.
Richard Marks
10-27-2007, 14:46
"What would be your backup camera? Another M8?"
r-d1s and a back-up back-up m6ttl
Always have my M6
If the lighting is really harsh and bright Id seriously think about using some film for a wedding.
Richard
Michiel Fokkema
10-27-2007, 15:21
Hi Michiel
Im sure a Metz would be a bit more flexible, its just that it would totally unballance the camera. Also Im not sure the TTL interface in the M8 is all that great. This is one area where it really can not touch a Nikon/ Canon speedlite set up.
Out of interest, does it still do the big 'pre flash' with a Metz on TTL
Richard
I've no idea. I don't own a M8.
i do own a canon 20d and that does a pre flash when I use the metz on ttl.
It is so annoying that i don't use it on ttl. just on A and that does work brilliant.
i do agre that any good flash on a m will make it unbalanced. But what do you want? Good flash or bad flash?
Cheers,
Michiel fokkema
emraphoto
10-27-2007, 15:38
"Invest in an Expodisc and shoot custom WB if you are worried or want to cut down on PP work."
thanx a million, great bit of advice!
as far as flash goes i really would only pack it for fill outside.
I used to shoot weddings with two M6TTL's, two SF-20's with Lutz's S-FILL and Nikon off-camera TTL cords, plus an EOS-3/EX-550 for things the rangefinder couldn't do, macro, etc.
Having done that, honestly, I think any M body is best suited to available light work. I did get good results using the SF-20's, but 'degree of difficulty' simply doesn't count when trying to deliver consistently good images. And flash work is such an important part of wedding shoots that I think using any M body as your primary camera is a handicap.
Once you start strapping flashes and sync cords on your M, you'd really be better off using a CaNikon. And if you're planning on shooting a 100% available light wedding, well....who are you shooting to impress, the bride, or your pals on this forum? :)
If I had to do it again, I would reverse the proportions: Two Canon SLR bodies for the bulk of the wedding, and an M body loaded with B&W film for those times when it's the right tool. And because it simply brings me pleasure to use the damned thing. :)
Richard Marks
10-27-2007, 16:53
But what do you want? Good flash or bad flash?
Cheers,
Michiel fokkema
Agreed, good flash of course
Im just pointing out a limitation of the M8 system
Richard
Check out Riccis Valladares' work. He's a professional wedding photographer who shoots with M8s and Leica RFs.. He's also a member here so he might respond to your questions.
Jeff Ascough also recently started to shoot weddings with the M8.
I'm currently gearing up for weddings ( I do portraits and corporate work at the moment). I'd have to say that as you can have two 5d's and a lens for the price of an m8 it's a no brainer. Couple that with the black fabric issues - you'd have to get the cut out filters for all your lenses for wedding work, the 5d's better high iso performance, better flash system, you can use zooms - and I could go on.
Way off topic in this day and age, but I went to a wedding yesterday and the photographer was shooting with a Hasselblad, and yes, film backs. He also had a terrible toupee. I don't know if the two facts are related, but this was the first time in a long time that I have seen a photog shooting with MF in a long time.
emraphoto
10-28-2007, 05:51
" I'd have to say that as you can have two 5d's and a lens for the price of an m8 it's a no brainer"
it's not that black and white actually... firstly i am a available light photographer. flashcapabilities are not a concern. as well, there is a "shooting flow" with rangefinders that to me has an equitable value. yes the 5d is a very capable camera BUT i would gravitate towards the m8 if i knew the issues of reliability were a "non concern".
i really don't want to dwell on the ir "issue" as 1/ the filters will be part of the package and 2/ i will be shooting raw
thanx ywenz... i'll see if i can check out his work. i am well up to date on ascough's feelings on the m8. man that guy's good...
.. firstly i am a available light photographer. flashcapabilities are not a concern.
You've piqued my curiousity now. How do you shoot weddings without using flash?
Jeff has bought an M8 for sure, but where did you read that he's using it for weddings?
He wrote this on April 17th and has written that he would never use a single card camera for a wedding. perhaps the M8 reliability has inspired a change of heart. :rolleyes:
"Jeff Ascough
Pro Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 5,451
At this point I sit quietly patting myself on the back for always, always using dual cards at a wedding.....
When are the major camera manufacturers going to get a grip on this and supply all cameras with dual card cabability.... "
You've piqued my curiousity now. How do you shoot weddings without using flash?
Use and work with the ambient light and shoot wide open if necessary. f1.4 will gather a lot of light for you.
Unless you're balancing strong contrast why would you need it? I use a flash gun at 1 in 3 weddings maybe and only then at the reception.
Rolo
emraphoto
10-28-2007, 07:01
i believe, and it's been a while since i shot a wedding (two years to be exact) i shot the last 5 weddings without any flash at all. i certainly pack them along for the ride but rarely. rarely use them.
if you are indeed curious about weddings sans flash take a hop over to mr ascoughs web site and take a peek.
disclaimer; i am by no means comparing myself to jeff ascough
i'm not entirely sure ascough is shooting weddings on an m8 right now... i did see some landscape work he did with the m8 but i am unsure as to how it has worked out in his proffessional endeavours.
" I'd have to say that as you can have two 5d's and a lens for the price of an m8 it's a no brainer"
it's not that black and white actually... firstly i am a available light photographer. flashcapabilities are not a concern. as well, there is a "shooting flow" with rangefinders that to me has an equitable value. yes the 5d is a very capable camera BUT i would gravitate towards the m8 if i knew the issues of reliability were a "non concern".
i really don't want to dwell on the ir "issue" as 1/ the filters will be part of the package and 2/ i will be shooting raw
thanx ywenz... i'll see if i can check out his work. i am well up to date on ascough's feelings on the m8. man that guy's good...
The reason I'd recommend the 5d or indeed any equivalent nikon/canon camera is that a) you should really have two cameras for a wedding two M8's is very expensive. b) if you have reliability issues it's easier to rent canon/ nikon equipment AND you won't have to deal with the wait while your M8 is sent to Germany. That's the big problem with any camera that's not nikon or canon they just don't have a decent pro back up / service infrastucture. The first rule of wedding photography is to cover yourself in case things go wrong this is not impossible, but is certainly harder with an M8 based set up.
Please feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions about shooting weddings with the M8. Also visit my blog to see more of my recent work.
For those of you interested in available light, please check out my latest wedding on the blog (http://www.riccisvalladares.com/wordpress/?p=591) as it was shot all with an M7 and available light.
I also don't think the Jeff A. is back to shooting weddings with the M8, but I could be wrong.
Cheers,
Riccis
Not So Still Life
10-29-2007, 09:52
Hi everyone. I'm Danielle and I've shot weddings with two M7s (one mine, one rented). The images were beautiful and if I hadn't switched to digital I'd probably still be using them. If the M8 were cheaper I'd buy one tomorrow, heck I've been thisclose to using the M7 I do have for a credit towards it and putting the rest on a credit card.
As for Jeff A, his work is incredible and he does mention on his blog:
http://www.jeffascough.net/blog
using the M8 on several recent weddings.
shadowfox
10-29-2007, 12:09
Just curious, in a wedding, where most captured moments are spontaneous, how do you decide when to use the backup?
I mean, do you only use the backup if you sense that the primary camera is acting up? or do you alternately use the cameras so there's a good chance that the backup camera also get the "good shots"?
I remember years ago that my wedding photographer had two cameras on her side at all times, but I don't remember if she switches back and forth (well, I was the groom, why would I notice things like that? :p )
emraphoto
10-29-2007, 12:10
"The reason I'd recommend the 5d or indeed any equivalent nikon/canon camera is that a) you should really have two cameras for a wedding two M8's is very expensive. b) if you have reliability issues it's easier to rent canon/ nikon equipment AND you won't have to deal with the wait while your M8 is sent to Germany. That's the big problem with any camera that's not nikon or canon they just don't have a decent pro back up / service infrastucture. The first rule of wedding photography is to cover yourself in case things go wrong this is not impossible, but is certainly harder with an M8 based set up."
i would never dream of shooting a wedding with one camera. my kit would be (for now) an m8 (for b+w), an r-d1s (colour) and an m6ttl for the back-up. i will sport a 35mm f1.2 voigtlander, 35mm 'cron, 50mm 'cron, 15mm heliar and a 75mm f2.5 voigtlander.
as well a pair of sf 24d's and some odd's and sodd's
Just curious, in a wedding, where most captured moments are spontaneous, how do you decide when to use the backup?
In my case the backup is always in use... One camera has a wide angle and the other one has a mid telephoto.
Emra - Two M8s will not be that much more expensive than 2 D3s or 2 1DMarkIII or 2 1DsMarkIII...
Nikon Professional Services or Canon Professional Services are great in the sense that you can get loaners while you wait for your repairs. You can also look into Leica Professional Services and as long as your M8 does not have to go to Germany, you can have it back in 1-2 weeks...
BTW, I no longer use M8s for reasons I can't state, but nothing to do with the quality of the files or knowledge of an M-9, I just had to make a decision that it was best for my business.
Cheers,
Riccis
IGMeanwell
10-29-2007, 15:44
I am little surprised some here don't use the Fuji S5 for weddings
With their recent price drop and I actually probably going towards that instead of the D300 (using my other Nikons as backup)
The extra DR and the Fuji Colors are a great match, even at the expense of a few fps
Ricci, great work as always
What film are using currently?
Thanks, Pete... I am currently using Fuji Neopan 400 for the B&W and Pro 400H-800Z for the color work. I'm overexposing the film by a stop, but have my lab develop regularly.
Cheers,
Riccis
IGMeanwell
10-30-2007, 03:42
Thanks, Pete... I am currently using Fuji Neopan 400 for the B&W and Pro 400H-800Z for the color work. I'm overexposing the film by a stop, but have my lab develop regularly.
Cheers,
Riccis
Now I see ... that Neopan 400 has a real unique look, perhaps the overexposure adds to it... but I like it
So are you still using some of your texture masks over the film shots? Or are you just tweaking the colors
I am little surprised some here don't use the Fuji S5 for weddings
With their recent price drop and I actually probably going towards that instead of the D300 (using my other Nikons as backup)
The extra DR and the Fuji Colors are a great match, even at the expense of a few fps
Ricci, great work as always
What film are using currently?
I have a fuji S3 that hogs all my DSLR duties, sometimes I crave some speed but I really like the image files that the fuji puts out. Certaintly a viable option.
For those of you interested in available light, please check out my latest wedding on the blog (http://www.riccisvalladares.com/wordpress/?p=591) as it was shot all with an M7 and available light.
You have a good eye and great timing, but some of your images demonstrate the downside of relying on available light. There are some muddy colors and flat B&W images there that strike me more as a rationalization rather than a creative choice.
No disrespect intended, as I said, I shot weddings for a couple of years primarily with two M6TTL's, but I ran into the same problem. For some shots, available light and a small, unobtrusive camera were the perfect choice, but there are times when using some supplemental light is mandatory to get the best image quality, and the M simply isn't a good flash camera by modern standards.
Pete - No textures or any other PS manipulations were done to the files.
Kevin - Believe it or not, I like this look and it was all done in purpose. My clients hire me for my style, where the most important factor is capturing the essence of their day without any intervention or heavy posing (other than a few portraits) and are fully aware that sometimes the images will not be "technically" perfect but will depict moments that will make them go back to that specific day in time... To me and them, this is more important than perfection... does this make sense?
Thanks,
Riccis
Riccis,
Firstly, many thanks for making your images availbe. I've had much enjoyment from your sites.
Can I ask, what part the M8 plays in your regular wedding photography and what percentage of the shoot does it provide for you? Is it use noticable in the final product?
If ever you doubted it's reliability, are you becoming more confident in it's use.
I used MP & M3 cameras without hesitation or reliability fears until 10 months ago when I changed to DSLRs for more than 90% of the day and they are working well for me. However, although I'm thrilled with my work, I don't particularly 'enjoy' working with the bulky SLR kit and look forward to the day 'I'm' confident with the M8.
Rolo
Kevin - Believe it or not, I like this look and it was all done in purpose. My clients hire me for my style, where the most important factor is capturing the essence of their day without any intervention or heavy posing (other than a few portraits) and are fully aware that sometimes the images will not be "technically" perfect but will depict moments that will make them go back to that specific day in time... To me and them, this is more important than perfection... does this make sense?
Thanks,
Riccis
Riccis,
I get it but I also get Kevin's point of view on this.
I understand your style and I also don't think images need to be "technically perfect" but I think loss of shadow detail in some images can make them look.. for the lack of a better word.. "odd".
No two ways about it, available light DOES make an image if it's used effectively but there are times when, well, available light is almost non-existent and unless the ISO is @ 1600-3200 you lose a lot of the image imho.
That said, I too would prefer to shoot available light but I've been in some weddings where the hall is cavernous and there are next to no windows and the lighting is extremely subdued. At ISO 1600 even with a f1.2 lens I would be looking at 1/30 of a second. Flash, for me, is a "necessary evil" unfortunately.
Cheers
Dave
Riccis, it makes perfect sense. If you're happy and your clients are too, then you're golden. :) My m.o. was very similar to yours, actually. I tried to get as many 'natural' shots as I could, but I just kept finding myself backed into too many corners, technically speaking, using only the M's for weddings. I would have situations where people were being themselves in locations with absolute crap lighting. :( I know this is heresy here, but a DSLR can impersonate an M (no flash, small prime) better than an M can do what an DSLR does best. :eek:
I think I'll start carrying an M again, though, but this time I'll go whole hog and use a meterless vintage body like an M2, or M4. That way, I wouldn't be tempted to make it be a 'jack of all trades' camera again. Cheers.
Just to pick up on what rover said much earlier in the thread, last weekend I attended a wedding in Co. Kildare here (Ireland) where the photog was using a MF film camera - a Bronica. So it does happen. FWIW Jeff Ascough has just bought an M8 so he may have some images on his web site by now.
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