new beginnings

[back alley]

just wanted to throw a howdy into the fray and a thanks for all those willing to help out with this.
we have long been labelled a gearhead site while lots of great images went unnoticed or at least un commented on in the gallery.
with some creative energy maybe rff can be known as an image site as well.

very cool...

joe

[BillBingham2]

I'm looking forward to it helping get me off my lazy butt and post some shots. I think it's a combination of not having done it, perhaps no easy to follow instructions, or just not enough time to breath.

Hey Joe, an imporant question I ask when ever I take on a new project is how do you measure success? Is it an increase in posts, views, membership? What do you think?

B2 (;->

[photogdave]

I'm very excited about this whole image promotion thing - can't wait to see what happens!
My suggestion is some way to make the Pics of the Week a little easier to participate in. If there was some kind of button we could click when we are viewing an image, that would put a link or copy of it in some sort of "drop box". We could then link our drop boxes in the thread every week. Kind of like add to favorites, but everyone could instantly link to it.
I hope I explained that clearly... :o

[Gabriel M.A.]

??? I guess I'll speak for those that feel like I do: did I miss some announcement?

[FrankS]

Here you go!

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48836

[Simon Larbalestier]

A move towards more image based threads certainly would be interesting here on RFF.
I for one would contribute.

[back alley]

I'm looking forward to it helping get me off my lazy butt and post some shots. I think it's a combination of not having done it, perhaps no easy to follow instructions, or just not enough time to breath.

Hey Joe, an imporant question I ask when ever I take on a new project is how do you measure success? Is it an increase in posts, views, membership? What do you think?

B2 (;->

as a mod i don't normally give much thought to 'success' b2. i am usually on the lookout for nasty posts or threads that might go haywire.
for this project...i would think if we got more of the current members involved in taking, making, posting and discussing photography (rather than gear) then it would be a success.

joe

[back alley]

i have a recommendation...

i think we use the rf general discussion for gear related discussions and the photography general discussion for photography/photo/image related discussions.

[planetjoe]

??? I guess I'll speak for those that feel like I do: did I miss some announcement?

Thanks, Gabriel, for the question. Speaking as another one that missed the announcement, that is.

Just looked the idea over, and it's pretty exciting. Perhaps just the thing to get me shooting and scanning again.


Cheers,
--joe.

[Keith]

I hope this works and generates some image interest around the forum. I thought the FSU contest was good a while back and I think it would be good to have a few more specific forum based competitions ... folders, scale focus, MF etc!

I find the general lack of interest in 'gallery pics for the week' disappointing ... some weeks it's lucky to get a dozen posts. I also see some noteworthy pics go through the gallery that draw no comment, supportive or otherwise!

I really hope this move turns the situation around a little. :)

[oftheherd]

...

I think it would be good to have a few more specific forum based competitions ... folders, scale focus, MF etc!

...



That's an interesting idea Keith. How about some expansion of ideas on this. If it's a competition, how do we pick winners?

What say you all?

[jan normandale]

I think those that want prizes should have them.

[NB23]

Guys, please don't make it complicated and please don't cut the contests by the kind of gear to be used. An image is an image.
If a 3 year old kid can't understand an idea, it will just never sell, no matter how good it is.
Marketing basics 101.

[Kim Coxon]

Another forum I belong to has a weekly comp. The winner chooses the subject for the following week and judges it. A week is may be a bit short. No "prizes" but it does generate images, gets people out thinking about different subjects and gives different ideas on what is a good image. Just needs one sticky thread per comp to post the pictures. General coments can be in a different thread with the "judging" comments at the end of the picture thread.

Kim

[mfogiel]

My suggestion is simple: make a "plugin" loader applet, akin that used by flickr, with which one can load up reasonably sized (at least 1200x800 pixel) jpegs smoothly and directly into a specific set in the gallery. I load up 25-30 shots a month on flickr on average, and with all the time it takes to scan and edit the photos I hate to think I would have to upload each photo manually. If you cannot do this, forget the individual galleries altogether, and make exclusively a monthly contest in a few categories, where one can submit only one shot, this way you will end up attracting best photographs and biggest interest without much IT investment.

[jaffa_777]

Lets have the best of both worlds. Great images followed by descriptions of what gear and film they were taken on are my favourite things about this forum. I think we definately need more images posted along with the gear head talk to even things up a bit.

[nzeeman]

competition is very nice idea. on fsu part of forum we had contest last two years, and we will have another one next year i hope. weekly competitions could be fun too so i hope moderators and owner will organize some.

[kalokeri]

I find the general lack of interest in 'gallery pics for the week' disappointing ... some weeks it's lucky to get a dozen posts. I also see some noteworthy pics go through the gallery that draw no comment, supportive or otherwise!

I really hope this move turns the situation around a little. :)

So do I. But after participating for a few weeks in summer I stopped posting for simply one reason: it´s too complicated to follow the tread plus it takes too much time. If you click to every link you get a new window, you look at the picture and close it, click the next link and a new window opens and so on. It would be easier if I could rate the pictures I like directly in the gallery and so at the end of each week all our ratings give us the - for example - 5 or 10 best aka highest rated pictures of the week.

Thomas

[VictorM.]

I still miss the 'random' photos on the main page...perhaps an actual image or two, or more, on the main page would help stimulate more interest in photographs.

[ClaremontPhoto]

I too miss the Random photos feature on the front page.

As well as reinstating that I wonder if the software could be reconfigured to show the top five most popular recent photos?

[Kim Coxon]

Hi,
Stephen has already said that the random photos will not be back because of the effect it has on the speed of the site.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=663477#post663477
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=663402#post663402

One of the main reasons for this thread was to try and find new ideas for promoting greater interest in images without the penalty of slowing the site down.

Kim

I too miss the Random photos feature on the front page.

As well as reinstating that I wonder if the software could be reconfigured to show the top five most popular recent photos?

[ClaremontPhoto]

Kim Coxon:

Thank you for that information.

Such a shame about Random Photos, and such a loss. Especially when photos are expected to come more to the forefront here.

[DougK]

I stopped posting images in the RFF gallery because I have all my photos worth posting online on Flickr and it's too much trouble to resize my photos just to upload here. I don't mind posting a link to a photo in my Flickr gallery in a thread, though, and have done so in several W/NW threads.

The other reason is because I haven't been shooting with rangefinders that much lately, mostly either my point-and-shoots or my digital camera, so many of my photos don't fit the "rangefinder requirement," so to speak.

EDIT: It would be nice to see more photography talk and less gear talk, so I welcome this development wholeheartedly.

[oftheherd]

I stopped posting images in the RFF gallery because I have all my photos worth posting online on Flickr and it's too much trouble to resize my photos just to upload here. I don't mind posting a link to a photo in my Flickr gallery in a thread, though, and have done so in several W/NW threads.

The other reason is because I haven't been shooting with rangefinders that much lately, mostly either my point-and-shoots or my digital camera, so many of my photos don't fit the "rangefinder requirement," so to speak.

EDIT: It would be nice to see more photography talk and less gear talk, so I welcome this development wholeheartedly.

And that brings up a question that I think was first broached by sitemistic; are only RF photos allowed, or can SLR or even digital ( :eek: ) be allowed? I am sort of inclined to film based at least, but would enjoy hearing comments/suggestions.

[Kim Coxon]

As I see it, I think the idea is to try and strike a balance. It would be nice to have more photos easily visible but it has to be affordable and not slow the site too much. That comes down to bandwidth. Perhaps a seperate section where random photos come up? Weekly/Monthly/brand type theme competitions? I don't have the answers and hence the purpose of throwing open fr ideas. It will not suit everyone whatever happens. Some will not want to take part or won't want to resize for this site. Some will always be gearheads.

As Stephen said when he introduced it, neither he nor the mods have the time to run it. IMHO, it needs to be something that many are involved in and not just a few. That was one of the reasons I suggested a series of mini competitions in which the winner set the theme etc for the next. In that way, fresh ideas would be introduced and it would not rely on the preferences of just a couple of people running it and it would also share the workload and would mean that at least all the entries get at least one critique.

As to RF/SLR/P+S or Film/Digital, I don't know. To say no digital rules out the M8 and RD1. To say RF only could rule out some very interesting images which could give inspiration. But then again it doesn't have to be only one critique/comp etc. It will depend on how it is organised/supported. I wouldn't like the think it became dSLR only. There is another forum for that. ;) Long telephoto shots and macro work are perhaps not what this forum is about.

Perhaps the important thing at the moment is to fiels all the ideas and then sort out rules/limitations etc about the equipment.

Kim

[pesphoto]

Would it slow the site down too much if JUST the single most recent image that was uploaded to the gallery was displayed on the front page?

[ClaremontPhoto]

Would it slow the site down too much if JUST the single most recent image that was uploaded to the gallery was displayed on the front page?

The main page already has ten photos of equipment for sale, plus advertisements for about ten companies, plus the RFF banner graphics.

Something to represent imagery wouldn't add anything significant bandwith-wise.

[rogue_designer]

I find the general lack of interest in 'gallery pics for the week' disappointing ... some weeks it's lucky to get a dozen posts. I also see some noteworthy pics go through the gallery that draw no comment, supportive or otherwise!

I really hope this move turns the situation around a little. :)

I agree - I will say though, that the way the gallery is organized (or not) and the fact that it's a bit buried within the site - especially without the "random gallery pics" on the main page - makes this a difficult task.

I look forward to seeing where we go with this.

[back alley]

originally, we didn't have a gallery.
then jorge set one up and it was sort of seperate from the main rff pages complete with a seperate sign in etc.
then he found a way to merge them both with one sign in.

i'm no programer etc...but i'm guessing that anything that strays from how the gallery is now set up would require a major reworking of the software or completely different software altogether.

if jorge reads this maybe you could explain it better than my feeble attempt?

joe

[robert blu]

A more images related talk would be interesting. I post some comments to the photo in gallery, sometimes i don't because for not native english speaking a comment risk to be misunderstood, it is not always simple to explain concepts in a different language (at least for me).Please keep in mind that a real comment sometimes could have an improvement suggestion, but not knowing the photographer, his personality, there is the risk to "disturb" someone and in this case I prefer not to comment. I like this place, beside th RF cameras, because it still is quiet enough...
Anyway interesting idea, Iìll try to give a contribution.
robert

[planetjoe]

Concerning posting photos/using the RFF Gallery, there's a thread here (no pun intended): the desire for commonality of format/image size with other services like Flickr.

I haven't uploaded to the Gallery in a while, I'll have to admit, so I don't recall exactly - but I think that I needed to be very specific about image dimensions and sizes in a way that was particularly different from the requirements at Flickr. It might be attractive if an image already formatted for Flickr (for example) could be eligible for upload to RFF.

Someone already mentioned the idea of a "plugin" module for vBulletin or similar that could do auto-resizing or such; such a thing would make the fiddly bit about prepping for upload go away.

Then again, there are something like 50k images in the Gallery, so perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree here. At any rate, this talk has me excited about posting images again. I'm not so much into contests, but critiques are VERY useful.


Cheers,
--joe.

[NB23]

Hi,
Stephen has already said that the random photos will not be back because of the effect it has on the speed of the site.



Yeah but if PBase or Flickr or any photo site can do it...

[ferider]

Just a couple of thoughts:

- this is the third thread on the subject and each thread emphasizes that RFF wants to be more than a "gear head" forum. Keep emphasizing it and you will keep making a wrong point and keep being critizised for being a gear head. IMO, many of the famous photographers (HCB, AA, etc.) were "gear heads", BTW.

- what's the goal, and specifically what do we want to achieve photographically ? If we want to learn from each other, having teachers among our own rows would be great, and picking them according to genre, etc. will be important. For example, I always felt that RFF was too street and B+W focused. I browsed an encyclopedia on famous Life Magazine photographers yesterday. While most of them shot RFs, less than half could be considered street photographers, IMO. Lots of portraits of course, many color photos, etc.

- what's the process ? So there is a group that will think about what can/should be done. Will they need the owner's approval for RFF changes/additions, will it be a democratic process, etc. Is this group the group of teachers, or will teachers be elected separately ? Etc.

Roland.

[Al Patterson]

A more images related talk would be interesting. I post some comments to the photo in gallery, sometimes i don't because for not native english speaking a comment risk to be misunderstood, it is not always simple to explain concepts in a different language (at least for me).Please keep in mind that a real comment sometimes could have an improvement suggestion, but not knowing the photographer, his personality, there is the risk to "disturb" someone and in this case I prefer not to comment. I like this place, beside th RF cameras, because it still is quiet enough...
Anyway interesting idea, Iìll try to give a contribution.
robert


That's OK Robert, some of us have trouble explaining concepts in our native language... (I know I do, that's why I work with computers instead of writting for a living).

Since the gallery preview went away, I must admit I haven't spent enough time looking through the gallery. Anything that makes that easier would be great.

[Al Patterson]

<snip>

- what's the goal, and specifically what do we want to achieve photographically ? If we want to learn from each other, having teachers among our own rows would be great, and picking them according to genre, etc. will be important. For example, I always felt that RFF was too street and B+W focused.

<snip>

Roland.

One of the reasons I haven't started a gallery is that I don't do street shooting, although I am a big fan of Black and White. I may have to dig out some of the railroad shots I've done on rangefinder. I should probably start on the other site, as the majority of my decent stuff is digital or SLR.

[photogdave]

I always appreciate your comments Robert, and everyone who takes the time for that matter. Please keep it up!

[kalokeri]

To my unasked opinion DougK and planetjoe - like mfogiel did before - gave the answer to a very important question on the way to a more picture related rff: What makes members with outstsanding pictures leave rff and post them on - for example - flickr ?

As long as Stephen says all changes must be within the existing shape and function of the forum there might be a little problem. It seems to be too complicated to load up pictures and the gallery is a little bit hidden to become attractive. Maybe this has to be changed in a direction Marek, Doug and Joe mentioned even it means a little change of shape and function - I have no idea how this works maybe someone else does ...

Thomas

[Gabriel M.A.]

Guys, please don't make it complicated and please don't cut the contests by the kind of gear to be used. An image is an image.

If it were a poetry contest, the language would "cut the contest". Should Mandarin poems be judged the same as those written in Greek? A poem is a poem, right? But rules are there for a reason, and limiting a poem contest to a language, or a photography contest to its creator apparatus isn't really "cutting" anything, except chaos.

In either case, what happened to the Words/No Words forum? There are lots of threads there. Granted, not many people participate, and the vast majority fizzle.

Edit: typo.

[Todd.Hanz]

How about we nix the gallery and upload to flikr, maybe a dedicated group page. I know there is one curently running, and that would handle the objections everybody has to how things are run here. A link could be added on the home page that would show the most recent images uploaded and also allow you to see images in peoples galleries not taken with RFs if they have them.

m2cents,
Todd

[Gabriel M.A.]

To my unasked opinion DougK and planetjoe - like mfogiel did before - gave the answer to a very important question on the way to a more picture related rff: What makes members with outstsanding pictures leave rff and post them on - for example - flickr ?
Lack of feedback. Lots and lots of great images just pass by the forum. No comments mean either they're being ignored, they suck, or "all of the above". Then there are certain clicks, people who only comment on other people they know. I guess it's something learned in Junior High Schools, can't get rid of that in certain cultures.

The gallery would be more awesome if people were a little more involved. I am guilty of that too, for I hardly peruse the RFF gallery. And that's mainly because there's a certain apathy (per lack of commentary/discussion) that just makes you not go there, if you're really into photography, not just into dumping images onto a repository.

[Kim Coxon]

This may seem simplistic but why do the images have to be on RFF to talk about them? If members are happier sizing them and posting them to flikr or anywhere else, just link to them or use img tags to bring them up here.

I thought the idea was to try a way to improve things rather than run through some of the old "complaints" about RFF. ;)

Kim

[Gabriel M.A.]

I thought the idea was to try a way to improve things rather than run through some of the old "complaints" about RFF. ;)
So no feedback is good feedback, right? ;)

[back alley]

How about we nix the gallery and upload to flikr, maybe a dedicated group page. I know there is one currently running, and that would handle the objections everybody has to how things are run here. A link could be added on the home page that would show the most recent images uploaded and also allow you to see images in peoples galleries not taken with RFs if they have them.

m2cents,
Todd

i like this idea.
i have stopped posting pics in my gallery here and only post on flickr now. no complaints or concerns about the gallery but i have only so much time and energy and prefer to post to the net only once. flickr is my choice for that till i get a site of my own up & running.

i think those of us that avoid commenting on pics do so because of a lack of 'critiquing skills', fear of sounding like we don't know a good pic from a poor one etc. most of my reactions to photos seem to be 'emotional' as in, 'wow, that's a great pic!', 'wish i had taken that'. i react to shots that have impact on me but many times i don't really know where that impact comes from or what about that specific shot caused it.

[Todd.Hanz]

i think those of us that avoid commenting on pics do so because of a lack of 'critiquing skills', fear of sounding like we don't know a good pic from a poor one etc. most of my reactions to photos seem to be 'emotional' as in, 'wow, that's a great pic!', 'wish i had taken that'. i react to shots that have impact on me but many times i don't really know where that impact comes from or what about that specific shot caused it.


thats all anyone really wants, some recognition that their pic is good enough.

[BillBingham2]

Guys, I think we need some organization here. Lots of good ideas.

One overriding theme I see so far is that the gallery may be hard to use and not as flexible as other are. There are several approaches we might want to look into, one is education, a canned demo of how to do it, the other is can we reconfigure the SW to allow for larger, easier, etc. Another approach is there an opensource option that could be used to make the admin/users lives easier.

Another area is comments/judging on different salons/galleries. Ideas like having guest judges come in (electronically) and comment and rate. Contests for different awards and perhaps prizes (marketiing dollars) are one approach. We have some great folks here we can us and then we can get them to drag in some other industry types. I thought that there was, perhaps 20 years ago some organization of camera clubs who might help with judging. Are there art contests or organizations that we could use to say people have been in a Juried show? One group could spin off and look at this.

Another thing I would like to do is think about outreach from two perspectives. First reach out to the Boyscouts and Girlscouts and off education and a site to host Photo and other merit badges. This could get new blood into different styles of photography for us. One group can look into this.

We could leverage some of the efforts there for a basic photography education effort that some of the more experience team members could do. Topics like Flash 101, 201 and 301, Street Photograhy without City Streets? How to post and some digital workflow tips. That could be one group.

We should leverage the testing approach some folks like Jonm have done and have a space in the gallery for test shots of different lenses. Develop a standard approach for who we do it and lets have everyone test the different stuff they have. This would be a kick butt resource for the gear heads and bring a few of them over to the Gallery side perhaps.

Once we get this rolling we need some seed articals written about RFF and what we are becoming, the central site to share, learn, grow and become a better photographer. Our focus is helping each other become better and give back to our communities (including this one).

Thoughts?

B2 (;->

[Kim Coxon]

I didn't say that. The point I was trying to make is that if we concentrate on what can't be done, then progress is less likely than if we try new ideas. ;)

As I referred to in an earlier post, I belong to a Pentax forum that has no gallery. There was a lot of gear talk. A forum was opened along the lines of W/NW but that didn't generate much traffic or at least comments. Tried a critique forum where people were specifically looking for comments rather than showcasing their photos. That generated some more but it was still slow. The weekly comp generates 5 times the traffic and there are always comments. Perhaps one of the reasons is that it is so varied.

FWIW, I am not really into "street photography" or portraits. My thing is trains planes etc. I tend not to visit the gallery much because as stated elsewhere, there are 50K images. Most are very good but just not me. I always look through the Planes, Trains, Automobiles W/NW thread. Perhaps some reorganisation so people can look for the photos that interest them rather than rely on serendipity to find them.

Kim

So no feedback is good feedback, right? ;)

[Todd.Hanz]

if you'd like to see how a Flikr gallery can be included on the main page... go here and click on the "display flickr photos on your website"

http://www.flickr.com/tools/

[BillBingham2]

I think we need to create a taxonomy of how we lay out the galleries. This is nothing more than a big tree map showing how we organize (look at) the pictures. A hierarchical map that should have the rule that you can get from any where to any where else with only seven clicks of the mouse. We should have a way to cross reference uploads easily and painlessly so you load it once and it might have an entry in five different areas (Salon A, Top 10 Pictures, Street Photography, etc.).

We need to have a way to limit access to content based upon user preference. Say I am at work and want to look through galleries but do not want more “Artistic” stuff. I should be able to have a user setting that would either warn me or not show it at all. This would be based upon the photo owners rating and managed by the moderators for the galleries. A new group needs to be formed that would watch comments as well as ratings. We do not want be banned by the nannies or the firewalls.

That also would help with our outreach to younger folks (scouts).

I think there is a group of people (niche in size, but aren’t we all) that is folks who loved photography in their younger years, might have wanted to go to school for it but gave it up for a more traditional career. We should look to get them back into photography and come to our site. We do this by articles and news blurbs and increasing the visibility of RFF.

Perhaps there should be a different landing page for the Galleries just like there is for the DSLRxchange. Lets look to create Galleries that are inclusive of all photography rather than exclusive. Lets not say no, but set up rules and approaches that are followed. Reach out to APUG, Nikonians and others once we get our act together. We need to offer help, ideas, comments that are better than you find any where else. Better judges and alike.

B2 (;->

[photogdave]

How about we nix the gallery and upload to flikr, maybe a dedicated group page.
I'm afraid I would NOT be on board with that idea. If the gallery here was removed I would never come back.
I had a flickr account and deleted it for a few good reasons. I like the gallery here because I'm not worried about any privacy issues. I don't understand why people think it's so hard to upload and navigate. I find it dead easy.
No offense Todd! :)

[CameraQuest]

Guys,

As mentioned in the opening Volunteer thread, any changes will be made within the existing form and function of the site. Extensive programming changes are not going to be done.

Neither will RFF become like Flickr. Neither will the gallery be replaced by Flickr.

The doable goal is to make RFF a better imagery site with more images emphasis.

This is a discussion thread for ideas, ideally to be lead by the six volunteers who have agreed to help it happen, and keep it happening. But of course any member is welcome to contribute.

Before any changes are made, let's kick around ideas and see what we come up with. The decision what to try first will be made my myself, the mods, and the image promo guys. Over time, if we try things that don't work so well, we will shelve it and try something else. Possible solutions are fluid and changeable over time.

Stephen

[FrankS]

Re: PhotoDave's concern: Is the current RFF gallery more secure in preventing image download than a flicker gallery?

[BillBingham2]

Being somewhat stupid, is that possible Frank? Perhaps we put a tag line into the file (jpg) that adds a copyright notice to it and where it is from. This would allow for tracing.

Stoping down loads without requiring client side software I think is hard to do. Perhaps there is some type of water mark we could add, something.

I'll make sure we add that to the thoughts.

B2 (;->

[aizan]

the main thing that discourages me from using any online gallery is the comments. they're too casual, too "camera club". instead of being encouraging, they're just nice, polite, effusive, or...lenient. it's always an issue. who wants to say something "negative" when everyone else is "positive", even though it may be helpful? the trap to avoid is becoming like an art school crit, where people tend toward the other extreme.

there's also loose editing, which makes browsing a bit of a chore. don't get me wrong, i don't like rankings or "interestingness". it's no good at highlighting the good stuff. i do like being able to add favorites that other people can look at. if anything is done to the backend of the site, that's what i'd like.

edit: nevermind, i guess that won't happen. how about weekly crit sessions so people can practice? workshops for editing? the online photographer had a thread about that a little while ago. maybe he could moderate!

[BillBingham2]

I think we need to look at perhaps a group of folks, like the moderators are on the gear side, to help with comments and pull together groups of commenters for specific galleries. Kim for transporation, Joe for snow, etc.

I agree we need to develop guidelines for this team of how to say things in a positive and constructive manner, not like "Jane you ignorante slvt" (early SNL reference might be too old for you, sorry).

We need to see how we can leverage many members knowledge and desire to help people learn. Some may not fit that mold and that's OK.

B2

[planetjoe]

This may seem simplistic but why do the images have to be on RFF to talk about them? If members are happier sizing them and posting them to flikr or anywhere else, just link to them or use img tags to bring them up here.

Kim

This, of course, is a brilliant idea - as most simple solutions are. I'm a big fan of the W/NW threads, which tend to use such means as described by Kim here. I don't see why a "return to images" on RFF couldn't be catalyzed by this mechanism. Of course, for those that post in the Gallery already, using "img ref" html is already second-nature.

This presumes, by the way, my opinion that the "return to images" can and should be a site-wide renaissance as much as possible, and focus on thread discussions centering around posted images - be they here, in the Gallery, in the threads, or elsewhere.

It's the Internet, after all. I also think that BillBigham2's ideas and comments are worth a read, too.


Cheers,
--joe.

[photogdave]

Re: PhotoDave's concern: Is the current RFF gallery more secure in preventing image download than a flicker gallery?
Flickr has already been caught red-handed letting one of its user's images to be used in a major advertising campaign in Australia. There is wording in the agreement that gives Flickr some license over your images (permission to post them on the site) but I'm not sure there is any such language here. Please correct me if I am wrong!

[Simon Larbalestier]

How about we nix the gallery and upload to flikr, maybe a dedicated group page. I know there is one curently running, and that would handle the objections everybody has to how things are run here. A link could be added on the home page that would show the most recent images uploaded and also allow you to see images in peoples galleries not taken with RFs if they have them.

m2cents,
Todd


Todd makes a very good point here. I too have stopped adding to the RFF gallery and now mainly upload new projects direct onto Flickr which is easier to manage and you can set specific permissions usages/licenses.

I am also thinking of setting up an entire digital archive on Photoshelter (although this has nothing to do with addressing Joe's and Stephen's question of generating ways of being able to discuss more images related discussions here in RFF).

[mw_uio]

These are the following groups that exist on Flickr:

RFF PAW
Rangefinder-forum
Rangefinders and Reportage
Rangefinders
Rangefinder Cameras
Telemétricas y algunas (Viewfinders) - Rangefinders
*Bessa Rangefinders*
Olympus Rangefinders
Nikon Rangefinder
Rangefinders and Reportage
FSU rangefinder cameras
Toronto Rangefinder and Viewfinder Film Photography With Primes
Rangefinder

So the solution is so EASY! :D Create a NEW GROUP on Flickr and be done with it. Just choose a name to be unique and problem solved.

Call it "Global RFF" :D

Cheers

MArk
Quito, EC

[mfunnell]

Flickr has already been caught red-handed letting one of its user's images to be used in a major advertising campaign in Australia. There is wording in the agreement that gives Flickr some license over your images (permission to post them on the site)... !Actually, the photo concerned was released without licensing restriction by the photographer - something you actively have to do, as flickr's default copyright setting is "all rights retained by the photographer". The TOS for flickr only says you give flickr themselves the right to display the photo on their site (which they pretty much have to do). And flickr almost certainly had no knowledge of any of this until the advertising campaign was launched.

The problem with that flickr image was not the photographer's rights (he'd already waived them) but the model's rights covering commercial use of her image. The photographer had no model release and no way of waiving her rights. The advertiser may have made a mistake (though I think not) or may have cunningly bypassed the Australian Trade Practices Act by using an image taken of a non-Australian model by a non-Australian photographer outside Australia. The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission would normally have fined the advertiser into compliance with the Act - but had no standing to do so due to the lack of "Australian-ness" in the provenance of the image. In any event, the advertiser gave up the campaign in (much deserved) embarassment. I understand the model is sueing Singtel (the owner of Optus, who was running the campaign) in the US courts, but I have no idea whether she has any prospect of success there given that the advert wasn't shown in the US.

...Mike

[DougK]

I'm afraid I would NOT be on board with that idea. If the gallery here was removed I would never come back.
I had a flickr account and deleted it for a few good reasons. I like the gallery here because I'm not worried about any privacy issues. I don't understand why people think it's so hard to upload and navigate. I find it dead easy.
No offense Todd! :)
I don't find the gallery hard to upload to or to navigate. I have found that most of my shots, after editing, resizing, and compressing, come out to about 400K; trying to fit them into 300K files or smaller is simply a pain in the butt and involves more compromises with image quality than I'm willing to make.

[photogdave]

I don't find the gallery hard to upload to or to navigate. I have found that most of my shots, after editing, resizing, and compressing, come out to about 400K; trying to fit them into 300K files or smaller is simply a pain in the butt and involves more compromises with image quality than I'm willing to make.
If I have a TIFF open in Photoshop and want to put it in the gallery, I go into Image Size, change the longest dimension to 1000 pixels; Save As and rename the file and save it as a jpeg quality 8.
The gallery seems to happy to accept them this way and they look fine for internet viewing to me.

[Todd.Hanz]

Guys,

As mentioned in the opening Volunteer thread, any changes will be made within the existing form and function of the site. Extensive programming changes are not going to be done.

Neither will RFF become like Flickr. Neither will the gallery be replaced by Flickr.

The doable goal is to make RFF a better imagery site with more images emphasis.

This is a discussion thread for ideas, ideally to be lead by the six volunteers who have agreed to help it happen, and keep it happening. But of course any member is welcome to contribute.

Before any changes are made, let's kick around ideas and see what we come up with. The decision what to try first will be made my myself, the mods, and the image promo guys. Over time, if we try things that don't work so well, we will shelve it and try something else. Possible solutions are fluid and changeable over time.

Stephen

I guess I missed the announcement, those six volunteers are.....?

I'm just offering an opinion as a member, take it or leave it. It seems that using flickr to house the images solves alot of issues that other members have complained about for years. I belong to a few other sites that do it this way and it seems to work well for them. It also saves server space, not sure if that's an issue or not.

good luck corraling this "circle of confusion" ;)

[willie_901]

Flickr has already been caught red-handed letting one of its user's images to be used in a major advertising campaign in Australia. There is wording in the agreement that gives Flickr some license over your images (permission to post them on the site) but I'm not sure there is any such language here. Please correct me if I am wrong!

Flickr wasn't caught doing anything. Flickr did not let the major advertiser use the images. Flickr is not named in the lawsuits. The photographer (not Flickr) chose to license his photos for commercial use even though he did not have a model release from his subject(s). The major advertiser did not perform due diligence as to whether or not the model had signed a release.

Any intellectual property you post on the internet can be stolen and misused. One you post it, you no longer have control. Flickr can use your images on their site. They can feature them in areas of Flickr that new vistors are likey to spend time. That's it. Visitors to Flickr can steal your photos with screen-capture software even if you actively prohibit downloading in your account. They can do that here too, or anywhere else.

The RFF Gallery is so obscure, your images are safer here. On the plus side RFF Gallery photos are not easily found (if at all) using Google images. But they are can be abused if someone wants to misuse them.

[willie_901]

Mr Gandy's intent seems clear to me. Without modifying great gobs of existing code, and without using external photo-sharing sites, he wants to expand RFF's discussions to include the aesthetic and artistic aspects of photography.

I think Mr. Gandy's goals and vision are on target for both the members and the site. I sincerely applaud his leadership. Unfortunately the cumbersome Gallery software will impede RFF's ability to reach these goals. Still, it is reasonable to try and expand RFFs aesthetic activities with full knowledge that the current Gallery software is a handicap (maybe even a significant handicap). The only thing at risk is wasted time. But lots of well-intended experiments end up wasting time. (I just wasted 18 months trying to model a certain kind of MRI data – but I digress). You won't know until you try.

My guess is that in 3 to 12 months Mr. Gandy will realize that either RFF will remain an equipment oriented site, or RFF will have to implement a more radical change in how members share and view their work.

willie

[jbf]

Guys,

As mentioned in the opening Volunteer thread, any changes will be made within the existing form and function of the site. Extensive programming changes are not going to be done.
I have to say, this is not good news.

The current gallery system is really bad. Sorry but thats the way I feel. It uploads "copies" of photos to other albums instead of linking the same image. So then you get two sets of the same image with different comments. I find that extremely annoying.

I dont want copies of my images in other albums of mine... i want the same image with the same comments in whatever albums i specify.


Seriously.. it would be worth it to look for a better gallery system. No joke. I bet the majority of users would definately upload more if the system was better.

[pesphoto]

Im not crazy about the flickr idea. It makes sense, but it is a blocked site for me at work. i know....i should be working at work, but rff AND it's gallery help get me thru the day. Of course this shouldnt be a deciding factor. If this is how it goes, I'll take part. Dont forget we do have our W/NW forum here and to be honest that is where I look most on rff for the best images here.

[ClaremontPhoto]

1. In the Salon I can see just seven photos, of which four have a single vote each and the other three nothing.

2. In the current Gallery Picks thread there are just two photos after two days.

Are there any ideas about how to make RFF more image-oriented?

[Brian Sweeney]

You could put the Imagery Forums on equal footing with the Gear Forums- Place links to them on the main page. It takes a few clicks and some hunting to get down to the Words/No Words forum. On several other photography forums, it is usually up with the main page and tends to get more activity than the W/NW forum does on RFF.

[le vrai rdu]

In my opinion , the best way to post and comment is that each people wanting a gallery open a thread with is name and post there is pictures while others give him critics, it is much more simple than the system used here now, too fusy. these forum really needs much more pictures

[mfunnell]

Dont forget we do have our W/NW forum here and to be honest that is where I look most on rff for the best images here.While I like the W/NW threads for what they are, I think they also form part of the problem.

That's because postings there tend to run as one thread with some kind of unifying theme. Even a thread with lots of activity, and lots of photos, only shows up on the home page or under "active topics" as a single thread - amoung many, many threads from gear-ralated forums, general discussion forums and so on.

I'd like to see something where a singe photo (or set of related photos) had its own thread for viewing and discussion. If there were lots of photo threads then the home and active topics pages might start looking more like a photography place and less like a gearheads' convention - even if not that many more photos were on display.

In fact, based on something I've seen elsewhere, I wouldn't mind seeing three main photo forums. One would be (or be like) the current W/NW forum, where images are posted, for the most part, just to make them available for viewing with not much comment. There might even be a moderator-(lightly)-enforced rule preventing negative comment, and critique, just to encourage posting by people who want to show their stuff without feeling that they're at risk of hurt feelings. A second forum would be something like "photos for discussion" with comment and critique allowed. And the third would be "criticism (constructive) invited" where photography-specific critique (rather than general comment) is actively sought. Perhaps that's the already-existing critique/photo-picks/whatever forum, or perhaps something different.

Just a few thoughts, anyway.

...Mike

[le vrai rdu]

that would be great :)

[mfunnell]

I'm going to bump this, because I'd like to see some more reaction. Not so much the "three forums" thing I mentioned earlier (which may or may not contain any good ideas) but because of the "have more image threads appear on the home and active topics pages" concept (rather than, say, the W/NW approach where lots of photos can appear in a single thread).

I'd like to see something where a singe photo (or set of related photos) had its own thread for viewing and discussion. If there were lots of photo threads then the home and active topics pages might start looking more like a photography place and less like a gearheads' convention - even if not that many more photos were on display.

Thoughts?

...Mike

[ferider]

Stephen started this effort two months ago.

Except for some initiatives from individuals, not much has changed
in my perception. No updates from the owner, no word from the
change initiative champions.

No changes to the gallery in particular.

Therefore, sadly, I am assuming the effort is dead.

Merry Christmas, everybody.

[CameraQuest]

Stephen started this effort two months ago.

Except for some initiatives from individuals, not much has changed
in my perception. No updates from the owner, no word from the
change initiative champions.

No changes to the gallery in particular.

Therefore, sadly, I am assuming the effort is dead.

Merry Christmas, everybody.

nope. not dead.
not fast either though.

Stephen

[Florian1234]

I don't know if it was ever suggested before, but what about a small, random collection of photos from the gallery placed on the first page?
That would maybe draw people's attention to more easily visit the gallery section.

[ruben]

Strangely this is the first time I see this thread. One thing I can say for sure: we the members can do lot and should do more. The Weekly Picks is a great move but few people participate in the reviews - why ?

As for the Owner and staff, my request is to make the job easier. I do have patience and hope it will change. Just take into account that reviewing all pics submitted during a week is a tremendous work and challenge that should be helped as soon as possible, even by the most minimal help.

Thus for example having a good slide show is to my understanding a major change. But making the thumbnails bigger - is this too much as a minimal measure ? - Well, you know, in these technical issues my understanding is close to zero. Just wanted to ask for a minimum help asap, before the big changes in the long run.

Cheers,
Ruben

[nzeeman]

this is not dead idea - Marc-A. and me are making contest every month. so whoever wants to join - just go ahead. link is in my signature.

[MickH]

I'm not much of a one for competitions - although if I can sort myself out over the next couple of days I will be entering the Jan 2008 Magic Roll thingy - however I do like the gallery and participate each week in the "Gallery Picks For Week Ending..." thread. Perhaps a quick fix (adding a competitive element for those who like it) would be to set up some sort of automated "Hit Parade" which could run once a week and list the top ten shots with the most viewings.

Sorry if someone has already suggected this, but I don't have time while at work to read all through this thread. Indeed I shouldn't even be doing this and if the boss catches me he's likely to switch off my workstation without warni

[rxmd]

Just have the software show a picture or two every now and then to somebody who wouldn't have looked at them anyway.

Random Gallery picks did that, they were axed because the implementation sucked, now while there has been some talk about other ways of promoting imagery I'm not holding my breath.