Question: using epoxy paint on cameras.

[literiter]

Has anyone tried to use epoxy paint on cameras?

I have a old Moskva camera and a old Zeiss Super Ikonta that are in need of some kind of repainting. I tried all conventional paints, with primers and sanding the bare metal before application but I can easily remove the paint by scaping my fingernail across the surface. The old paint on these cameras was actually harder to take off.

I have even considered "black chrome".

Any ideas out there?? Much thanks.

[Kim Coxon]

Two thoughts. Firstly, brass is very difficult to paint. Have you tried using a self etch primer first? Even the slightest fingermark on brass will stop the paint adhering properly.

Any DIY type paint is not going to stand up very well to the handling a camera gets. Enamels are harder than some of the acrylics and gentle bakeing will improve the hardness. Most paints will take at least a month to cure properly.

Kim

[laptoprob]

I did my M2 again after peeling too easily. Now I did the whole surface with a rust-preventing car primer. Trouble is, it is also used as filler. Make a thin coating on the camera! Then I took regular black spray paint again. This time it does stick better. Not perfect but better.

[literiter]

Thank you Kim:
I have not used a self etch primer yet. This will be my next effort. Thank you.

Thank you Rob:
I have used a primer, cheap stuff from a spray can. Darned stuff came off too. I will try a better primer and see.

There is a supplier in the US that sells a two part epoxy paint, in matte, semi gloss and glossy. The colors include black.(If anyone is interested I will post the URL. ) You mix the paint then spray it on the proposed surface. I haven't used it, I have heard of no one else who has used it in this, or similar application. I can purchase in small quantities but at $60.00 US plus shipping it could be an expensive mistake.

The supplier suggested I remove the old paint then clean the surface very well. He told me to use a small sprayer, like one used for model airplanes etc.

Vincent

[Kim Coxon]

An Airbrush might work. It will depend on the "weight" of the pigment and paint. I would also check the specs on the paint. Most 2 part epoxy paints need breathing aparatus to apply. ;)

Kim

[FallisPhoto]

Micro Tools sells camera paint, and that might stick better. I've always just used automotive enamel though; If you bake it for about 12 hours, it hardens up nicely.

1. Use an air brush and thin the paint to about 50% strength.

2. Apply in several very thin coats. If you put it on all at once, it either won't harden or takes forever. First coat should be transluscent.

3. Bake between coats. No, you don't put it in an oven. Build a box big enough to hold the painted parts and install two 100-watt lightbulbs inside it. Drill a dime-sized hole in the top and bottom of each end to allow some of the heat to escape (so nothing melts) and to allow for air circulation. Put the parts in with the bulbs and turn them on for at least 12 hours. An old metal toolbox makes a great improvised baking oven (mount the lights in each end).

[literiter]

Micro Tools sells camera paint, and that might stick better. I've always just used automotive enamel though; If you bake it for about 12 hours, it hardens up nicely.

1. Use an air brush and thin the paint to about 50% strength.

2. Apply in several very thin coats. If you put it on all at once, it either won't harden or takes forever. First coat should be transluscent.

3. Bake between coats. No, you don't put it in an oven. Build a box big enough to hold the painted parts and install two 100-watt lightbulbs inside it. Drill a dime-sized hole in the top and bottom of each end to allow some of the heat to escape (so nothing melts) and to allow for air circulation. Put the parts in with the bulbs and turn them on for at least 12 hours. An old metal toolbox makes a great improvised baking oven (mount the lights in each end).

Yes, thank you for this. I will do this as it sounds right to me to bake the paint. If it works, great. If not, its the epoxy paint idea.

[FallisPhoto]

Yes, thank you for this. I will do this as it sounds right to me to bake the paint. If it works, great. If not, its the epoxy paint idea.

Forgot one: Do not use "Testor's" brand paint. It is designed to stick to plastic, not metal, and it is soft.

[FallisPhoto]

Yes, thank you for this. I will do this as it sounds right to me to bake the paint. If it works, great. If not, its the epoxy paint idea.

Jesus, I forgot another one! Just before painting, go over brass with steel wool. No paint sticks to tarnish very well.

[Spider67]

Be careful with camera paint as it is meant for the inside of a camera and also not for whole surfaces but fro thsoe points where the original paint of the cameras inside got worn off!

[FallisPhoto]

Be careful with camera paint as it is meant for the inside of a camera and also not for whole surfaces but fro thsoe points where the original paint of the cameras inside got worn off!

This http://www.micro-tools.com/store/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=CF6-F is meant for the outside of the camera. Automotive grade enamel works too.

[anselwannab]

I would think that some of the gun paints at a place like Brownells might work well. The whole brass thing is what is throwing me off. Haven't painted much brass. I think they have different gloss levels.

Air dry, bad. Two-part, better. Baking, best. As a rule of thumb.

I've seen some aziridine crosslinked water-borne polyurethanes that we tough as heck.

Mark

[Kim Coxon]

The secret of painting brass is to use a good self etch primer. ;)

Kim

I would think that some of the gun paints at a place like Brownells might work well. The whole brass thing is what is throwing me off. Haven't painted much brass. I think they have different gloss levels.


Mark

[Paul T]

It's worth checking out this thread. Mike Pry got a great result using paint from Brownells. I would guess their paint is slightly more matt than, say, Shintaro's, but this means is less susceptible to surfacve flaws.

Shintaro, by the way, bakes his paint, but uses 2-pack for items that can't be backed.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39813&page=2&highlight=black+paint

Another paint thread:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/26341-m2-black-paint-repainted-myself.html

[FallisPhoto]

[quote=literiter] The old paint on these cameras was actually harder to take off.[quote]

The old paint was probably lacquer. It sticks better, is smoother and has a brighter finish, is very tough, but good lacquer is very hard to find anymore (because of health hazards).

[literiter]

I received a product called Klasscote, epoxy paint system in matte. I applied it after some serious preparation, like removing the leather carefully with alcohol and a razor blade. I then cleaned the metal with ordinary paint remover and alcohol.

To give the metal a little "tooth" I scuffed it with 600 grit "wet and dry", again very carefully.

I mixed the Klasscote semi gloss (a two part system) and added a bit of thinner to it. Sprayed it on with a airbrush, in a very light coat, waited ten minutes and another light coat. I cleaned the airbrush carefully. Waited two days. I reapplied the leather and you can't tell it came off.

I'd use a mask designed for this stuff. I mean really.

Perfect, absolutely perfect. It won't come off. There is a flaw here and there but that is my fault. I am sorry I did not try the Brownells product however. It is likely just as good or the same. Checking out Brownells I think it may be less expensive.

Klasscote is quite expensive but used carefully, like in a airbrush, it will last it's shelf life probably.

We have a digital camera camera and asap (the batteries have failed it seems) I'll post an image of the job.

[digitalintrigue]

Looking forward to the pics of this project. :)

[JasonGawker]

Hey,

Haven't used the epoxy paint myself, but I don't know if its the best solution. Maybe a softer type, or something more natural would suit the plastic of the Camera better. At any rate, this book (http://www.fetchbook.info/camera_maintenance_and_repair.html) is of great reference to specifically this kind of events.

Jason

[Roger Hicks]

I have heard, though I cannot vouch for it personally, that electrolysis -- reverse electroplating, as it were -- is a good way to prepare brass. It doesn't sound very likely to me, but I pass it on for what it is worth.

Cheers,

R.

[radiocemetery]

I used reverse electrolysis to strip the chrome from the top and bottom plates of an Olympus 35RC in preparation for painting. The chrome did come off but quite a bit of the nickel remained. I used a self etching primer and enamel from a spray can and then baked the parts in an old toaster oven at it's lowest setting, around 200 degrees F, I think. You can see the results in the RFF forum for Olympus RF under the title "35RC has new clothes".

The paint seems to be stuck pretty well, but I would try a better quality automotive enamel next time.

Steve

[warren1960]

When blasting and refinishing steel wheels, the idea is to let them air dry for several days, then get the paint HOT, to 300 F for at least 45 minutes. If you can make a mark in the paint with the edge of a credit card, it is not fully cured. I don't know if the light bulb-in-a-box will get that hot.

I would only bake the painted metal parts this way; never the whole camera!

Warren

[radiocemetery]

I have stated this before in a previous thread. When I worked in an auto factory paint shop, after top coat application or primer application, car bodies were sent through ovens at 350F for at least 17 minutes.

This type of paint was formulated to be dried in this way, spray paint out of a can may not be. All paint is not created equal. Painting a camera at home is kind of a crap shoot. Conditions can not be closely controlled.

I think that powder coating may be a very good alternative. Not everyone will want to pay a paint shop 35.00 or more to paint a camera that cost 20.00 or 30.00.

[puderse]

I had a pistol powder coated by a company in Denton. Tough as nails. Matt, glossy, any color!

[FallisPhoto]

I don't know if the light bulb-in-a-box will get that hot.

It won't; thus it takes 12 to 24 hours instead of 45 minutes. On the other hand, it won't melt the insulation off of the wires.

[chippy]

[quote=literiter] The old paint on these cameras was actually harder to take off.[quote]

The old paint was probably lacquer. It sticks better, is smoother and has a brighter finish, is very tough, but good lacquer is very hard to find anymore (because of health hazards).


we talked about this once before so it got me to thinking (for restoring the older cameras that use this type of paint)....and i have been searching if its available etc

and i have found a place that may make/sell it here....i dont know how good it is yet or how close it is to what was used until the 50s but i am going to make further inquiries.

interesting stuff by the sounds of it, nitrocellulose based stuff invented around the early 20s from a resin of nitrate of cotton and other things, the solvents are toxic, volitile and flameable (so no need for a protective breathing mask and smoking is fine around this stuff ;)) .also the grade of nitrocellulose used to make the lacquer is much the same as nitrocliceran (spelling) used to make explosives. i guess for some reason the wimps prefer to make paint that is boring to produce and denigh the workers excitment and oppotunity to claim workers compensation!!!sheeze whats the world comming to haha

[nikonhswebmaster]

Brass should be nickel plated before it is painted. There are primers for brass but nothing works as well as nickel. Paint does not stick to bare brass, since it will oxidize, and the paint will then release.

Everyone should just stop trying to remove the nickel, it is there for a reason. You can remove all the chrome with a couple of batteries in a few hours.

[FallisPhoto]

and i have found a place that may make/sell it here....i dont know how good it is yet or how close it is to what was used until the 50s but i am going to make further inquiries.

Oh, you can probably find a semi-tame modern version of it somewhere, if you look hard enough, but even then, especially if you smoke, I want to watch you apply it from about 100 yards away. It is very tough stuff though. In ancient times, the Japanese used to soak rice paper and silk in it and used it for making armor -- kind of a medieval kevlar.

[chippy]

Ah well in that case i will just have my kids try it first ;-) on a non favorite camera of course hehe... just to be on the safe side..ya know incase 'I' make a mistake ;-)

interesting history to it!
cheers Andrew

[FallisPhoto]

Ah well in that case i will just have my kids try it first ;-) on a non favorite camera of course hehe... just to be on the safe side..ya know incase i make a mistake ;-)

interesting history to it!
cheers Andrew

Maybe a non-favorite kid too, for that matter. That nitrocellulose lacquer is not the original formula either. Originally, lacquer was made from the sap of (believe it or not) the varnish tree.

Apparently the japanese are still using it to make armor: http://www.denverkendo.com/pages/bogu.htm Check out the breastplate.

[chippy]

Maybe a non-favorite kid too, for that matter. That nitrocellulose lacquer is not the original formula either. Originally, lacquer was made from the sap of (believe it or not) the varnish tree.

Apparently the japanese are still using it to make armor: http://www.denverkendo.com/pages/bogu.htm Check out the breastplate.

it is interesting to see where these things origonated and how they developed!

after looking at that site and some further research it appears they began using that around as far back as 15th century ,,no doubt the lacquer 'Japan Black' (asphalt based) used in the early 20th century particularly by Henry Ford for his model T, took its name (if not some ingrediants) from that japanese finish. the 'Japan Black' (also called Brunswick Black) lacquer took 48 hours to dry (coloured versions up to 14 days; hence 'you can have a model T in any colour so long as its black') but it seems that type of laquer was ony used just into the 1920's (by the end of the 20's all but gone) and into the early/mid 20's the much quicker drying nitrocelulose formular (which as you mention has links back to the Japanese, korean and chinese) was introduced and was widely used in many applcations. so its reasonable to assume that the cameras of the twenties and most certainly the 30's-40's used this

[amateriat]

My beloved Konica Hexar RFs came finished in semi-matte black epoxy, and the finish has proven quite tough, and, as a side benefit (IMO, anyway), warm to the touch. Perhaps he decision to go with an epoxy-based paint was connected with the exterior panels being made of titanium, but I think the result turned out rather nicely.


- Barrett

[Bill58]

I had a pistol powder coated by a company in Denton. Tough as nails. Matt, glossy, any color!


If you had the insides of the pistol cylinder/ chamber/ barrel coated, I hope you don't try to fire it. the tolerances would be a little too tight. that's the problem w/ powder coating on some things--it's too thick.

[FallisPhoto]

it is interesting to see where these things origonated and how they developed!

after looking at that site and some further research it appears they began using that around as far back as 15th century ,,no doubt the lacquer 'Japan Black' (asphalt based) used in the early 20th century particularly by Henry Ford for his model T, took its name (if not some ingrediants) from that japanese finish. the 'Japan Black' (also called Brunswick Black) lacquer took 48 hours to dry (coloured versions up to 14 days; hence 'you can have a model T in any colour so long as its black') but it seems that type of laquer was ony used just into the 1920's (by the end of the 20's all but gone) and into the early/mid 20's the much quicker drying nitrocelulose formular (which as you mention has links back to the Japanese, korean and chinese) was introduced and was widely used in many applcations. so its reasonable to assume that the cameras of the twenties and most certainly the 30's-40's used this

A great many of them did. It is a good deal harder than enamel, is shinier than all but the most high tech enamels (like Enron paint), it didn't need to be baked, and you didn't need to use a primer with it. It was just a very good paint, with lots of advantages -- but it would kill you really fast if you weren't paying close attention.

I believe it is still used to finish some of the better acoustic guitars; they just haven't found anything else that works as well.

[picker77]

I have personally used and can endorse DuraCoat two-part firearms finish from these people: http://www.lauerweaponry.com/duracoatcolors.cfm?colortype=stock&Category=220

I believe Brownell's also carries DuraCoat.

You do have to use an air brush to apply it (any low budget airbrush will work fine) and it's best to bake it for a while in your wife's oven at low temp (150 or so) after it dries. You can add extra coats about 10-15 minutes apart. I used three coats. Comes in several types of matte and gloss finish and a whole bunch of colors, some tame, some wild. It goes on and evens out beautifully, and dries to a super thin coat that takes a month or so to completely harden and cure at room temp. Even if you bake it (it doesn't stink up the house), it still needs to "cure" at room temp for several days (2-3 weeks is even better, it just gets harder and harder and tougher as it cures). But when it's done you will be lucky to be able to mark it with a pocket knife, let alone with normal handling. It was invented to coat firearms, and is heavily used in the gun world, It was so easy to use I can't wait to try it on a camera myself. I've refinished two beat up Gitzo aluminum tripods and a large aluminum and steel Miller video head with it so far, and the results have been simply amazing. Plus, it comes in a zillion colors, as you will see on their website. There might be other products that work as well, but I have used this one myself and can definitely vouch for it. Reallllly good stuff.

[Murray Kelly]

I am often intruiged by the black cameras (have a black Spotmatic) but wondered how one does the lettering so neatly, in white?

Murray

[nikonhswebmaster]

I am often intruiged by the black cameras (have a black Spotmatic) but wondered how one does the lettering so neatly, in white?

Murray

Easy you use an encaustic paint (oil and wax) and rub it on with a cloth and then let it set for a few hours and wipe it off. This is the older style. Some older cameras appear to me to be pure wax, and thus the "paint" was easy to remove with improper solvents.

You can use any thick single-coat sign paint, such as "One Shot" to accomplish the same thing.

If you use most thin regular paint, you will get the thin middle darkness, which many home paint jobs exhibit.

[FallisPhoto]

[quote=FallisPhoto;672024][quote=literiter] The old paint on these cameras was actually harder to take off.


we talked about this once before so it got me to thinking (for restoring the older cameras that use this type of paint)....and i have been searching if its available etc

and i have found a place that may make/sell it here....i dont know how good it is yet or how close it is to what was used until the 50s but i am going to make further inquiries.

interesting stuff by the sounds of it, nitrocellulose based stuff invented around the early 20s from a resin of nitrate of cotton and other things, the solvents are toxic, volitile and flameable (so no need for a protective breathing mask and smoking is fine around this stuff ;)) .also the grade of nitrocellulose used to make the lacquer is much the same as nitrocliceran (spelling) used to make explosives. i guess for some reason the wimps prefer to make paint that is boring to produce and denigh the workers excitment and oppotunity to claim workers compensation!!!sheeze whats the world comming to haha

It's spelled "nitroglycerin." Incidentally, that isn't much of a surprise. Nitrocellulose is what they still make smokeless gunpowder out of. It is made with nitric acid and paper. They used to make it from nitric acid and cotton (guncotton). During our Civil War, or what we Southerners call "The War Of Northern Agression," they stuffed cannon and mortar shells with it. Add a little more nitroglycerin, and some petroleum jelly, dissolve it all in acetone and let it dry out and you get cordite.

On a humerous note, once there was a guy who made billiard balls out of nitrocellulose guncotton. According to what I've read, flames would shoot out of the balls if touched with a lit cigar and there was the occasional small explosion when the balls hit one another. Other than that, they worked fine. One Colorado saloon owner said he didn't mind the noise so much, but it was dangerous, because every customer in his saloon would immediately draw a gun.

Yeah, lacquer is not something for wimps. Oh, and BTW, unless it is a closed self-contained system, like maybe a Scott Air Pack, or maybe a rebreather, like an OBA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus a filter-type protective breathing mask probably would do no good at all.

[FallisPhoto]

I am often intruiged by the black cameras (have a black Spotmatic) but wondered how one does the lettering so neatly, in white?

Murray

Micro tools has special paint sticks just for that. http://www.micro-tools.com/

[radiocemetery]

Hi FallisPhoto,

While visiting Charleston S.C., we were touring one of the old homes down by the battery. The ladies conducting the tour pointed out some damage to some of the interior walls caused by shelling from Fort Sumter. They assured us that this damage had occured during the "recent unpleasantries". Being known to occasionally stir the pot, I asked which unpleasantries they were referring to. They replied "why, the War for State's Rights of course".

I have seen the paint sticks at some hardware stores and craft stores too.

Regards, Steve

[Murray Kelly]

Thanks for the paint tips. I will have to make some enquiries hereabouts (Australia) and keep my eyes open.

I noticed the DoF marks on a camera I am working on came off real easy when I was cleaning the lens barrel. Your comment on the use of wax only, came to mind.

Thanks
Murray

[FallisPhoto]

Hi FallisPhoto,

While visiting Charleston S.C., we were touring one of the old homes down by the battery. The ladies conducting the tour pointed out some damage to some of the interior walls caused by shelling from Fort Sumter. They assured us that this damage had occured during the "recent unpleasantries". Being known to occasionally stir the pot, I asked which unpleasantries they were referring to. They replied "why, the War for State's Rights of course".

I have seen the paint sticks at some hardware stores and craft stores too.

Regards, Steve

Yeah, "The War to Prevent Southern Independence," "Mr. Lincoln's War," "The War Between The States," "The Late Unpleasantness," ... I live here and I've heard them all. If you read your own state's constitution, ratified by Congress, you will, in nine cases out of ten, find a provision that allows your state to leave the Union. The Emancipation Proclaimation and a lot of the other "laws" enacted by Lincoln were not legal, since the executive branch does not have the power to make laws. The War, and a lot of the stuff that lead to it, was entirely illegal, much of its prosecution was performed in defiance of congress, entirely disregarding the existing laws, and a lot of the people here still get hot about it.

If you are ever in Richmond, stop by Hollywood Cemetery and look at Jefferson Davis's grave. There are DRIFTS of flowers there and he has four monuments. Unfortunately, when I was touring the cemetery with my camera and got to his grave, it was getting dark and none of the photos I took turned out well. J.E.B. Stuart's grave is also there and a mass grave for unidentified Southern soldiers. Both are still saluted frequently. The mass grave is topped by a really huge pyramid. There is a photo I took of the cemetery with the pyramid rising above the trees in the distance that should give you some idea of scale. http://fallisphoto.deviantart.com/art/Untitled-16235275