View Full Version : How much to pay for IIIf and lenses
capitalK
10-11-2007, 16:07
I have an opportunity to purchase a IIIf locally through a third party. He says that the original owner is selling it and purchased it in the 1940's.
I saw it briefly and it looked great, kept in a bag for quite a while. Apparently this person says it works well but I'd expect to have to send in a camera of this age for a CLA regardless.
It also came with a collapsable 50mm f/2 and a 90mm f/4.
I have no idea what to ofer and this guy has no idea what to ask, but he does know it's worth money. He was thinking $1000-1500 but coudn't give me a good answer.
It seems high or the body, but maybe with the addition of the two lenses it's a good deal?
Any info is helpful, thanks in advance.
Seems high compared to a recent thread on this topic.
It strongly depends on condition and type of camera and lens.
Normal, vanilla black dial IIIf + Summitar + Elmar (both clean) are worth
around US 600, I would say.
It cann't really be a IIIf, though, if he bought it 1940.
Roland.
capitalK
10-11-2007, 16:19
It cann't really be a IIIf, though, if he bought it 1940.
Roland.
You're right, of course. It's a III series so I assumed it was the f, I am very new to the whole Leica market but it seems like this may be a good start to my collection.
I own a Yashica rangefinder which is obviously no comparison, but has given me a new-found appreciation for rangefinders (read: gateway drug to Leica) :D
I will have to look at it again to determine the exact model, though I am certain it's a III-series.
LeicaTom
10-11-2007, 16:22
$1,000 to $1,500?
Well, first of all the IIIF was made in the 1950`s, you need serial numbers to know what you are buying
And even if it has two lenses, tops value is maybe $450/$500 and only if it`s really clean/mint
Vintage Leica`s over $1,000 are the rare Military models from WW2 that`s where their prices start
No IIIF is worth $1,000, even with those lenses
Tom
Best is to take note of the serial nr. And check the contrast of the VF/RF and that the shutter has no holes and more or less works. Everything else
can be fixed easily.
Lenses: if it's a Summitar, count the nr. of aperture blades. Some are worth
more than others.
Good luck,
Roland.
capitalK
10-11-2007, 16:25
Lots of great info, thanks so much everybody.
It may be a IIId! They resemble the IIIf, and I think it is worth quite a lot. Pics and a serial # will help. Stu
http://www.camerawest.com/images/IIID%20web.JPG
One more addition to what Stu said: look for small accessories, too.
They can be worth quite a lot. Like what finder did he use for the 90,
maybe there is an AUFSU or a bullet finder, etc.
Good luck,
Roland.
Best is to take note of the serial nr. And check the contrast of the VF/RF and that the shutter has no holes and more or less works. Everything else
can be fixed easily.
Lenses: if it's a Summitar, count the nr. of aperture blades. Some are worth
more than others.
Good luck,
Roland.
Can you tell us a little more about the Summitar and aperture blades? I just bought one so now I am curious. :)
Not sure about the details but I remember that there is a rarer 6-blade version.
Check Justin's website, for instance:
http://justinlow.com/articles/repair-leica-summitar
LeicaTom
10-12-2007, 00:24
The only Summitar I know that`s rare are the one`s with the thicker Summicron styled heads with Radioactive glass and hexy shaped blades, I think they lay in the #985000+ range I think?
(and were pre- Summicron Prototype lenses)
I`ve only seen this type once or twice, they are quite rare I think 1952/53 era
......and pre 1942 "uncoated" one`s are also uncommon.....
Tom
PS: IIID That`s funny......let`s see some pictures, there`s darn few of them left, though a handful may have made it stateside while some were issued to the US Army in 1945
capitalK
10-12-2007, 18:35
Found out it is a IIIc with 50mm Summitar /2, 35mm Summaron f/2.8 and 90mm Elmar f/4. They still haven't given me a solid asking price but they agree that $1500 is way too much.
I'll let you know what happens, thanks to all for the advice.
value depends on condition, here's a guess for average gear:
IIIc - $200 (depends if it's pre-war, war-time, or post-war)
Summitar - $175
Elmar - $100
Summaron f2.8 - $500
also look here: http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/
capitalK
10-12-2007, 20:52
Thanks for the link, Frank. I have the serial for the camera which may clear the question up, it's a 435xxx. Is that enough info?
According to the serial number list, it's a 1946/47 IIIc.
FrankS: from what I've seen lately, $175 might be a bit high for a Summitar in average condition. Probably closer to $125. I'd like a $100 Elmar though!
LeicaTom
10-13-2007, 14:21
For all that gear if it`s really clean......any price under $700 is a good deal
I say offer them $500 cash and dump the Summaron for $500+
(BECAUSE IT`S A COLECTORS ITEM)
and you`ll have a kit for nothing
I`ve been surprised later by some lens prices......people are crazy when they have their pockets full of $
Tom
PS: I`d buy Elmar`s all day at $100 each especially if they were wartime era ones...
Summitar`s are bringing GOOD $$$ now, CLEAN early examples are bringing near $300
*I`ll pay $175/$200 each for clean wartime ones*
CapitalK and I live in the same city. I'll try to go down to the camera shop to take a look. I don't have any intention of buying as I already have a IIIf, Summitar, and 90 Elmar... the $1500 is ridiculous. I just want to see the kit. Rarely do I see Leicas here in the Soo.
CapitalK,
I'd take LeicaTom's advice. Summitars are beautiful lenses. I absolutely love mine.
Ok, I saw the kit today. One thing that I must say is that the owner of this shop is an honest Joe that will not try to rip anybody off and he does know the real value of this gear. My family has been going to this shop since the 1950's when his father used to run it. He had a very nice Hasselblad 500C with a great-looking 80/f2.8 a little while back and he sold it for just $800, which seems very fair in today's market. The problem is that store owner agreed to sell the kit on consignment and the owner of the camera was "told" that it is worth $1000-1500 by another party and that's what he wants for it. The shop owner knows that this is unreasonable but will take any offers and present them to the owner of the camera. We talked about this for some length. He has many clients that have spent thousands of dollars on equipment, especially with medium format, and are completely unaware of the current prices. Now when they're trying to unload their equipment, they get shocked because they expected to get much more than the going-prices in today's market.
This is what the kit has:
IIIc - good user but needs a CLA. Many marks on the bottom plate - some marks here and there. I didn't notice any dings. A chunk of vulcanite is missing to the top-right side of the slow-speed dial. It winds very smoothly but the shutter is a bit loud in comparison to my IIIf and to my M's - almost sounded like my Zorki 1c. I couldn't tell if the shutter-speeds were off. Rangefinder was contrasty but dimmer than my IIIf. The viewfinder was also dimmer.
Summitar - This lens looked pretty bad. The chrome is shiny but there are several big gouges down the barrel. It is very difficult to collapse and extend the lens. Aperture operated fine. Focusing ring was stiff. It had a bit of dust. I found very few marks on the glass though I didn't have a flash light with me to look through it more thoroughly. Front cap. No rear cap.
90 Elmar - This one looked pretty decent. Typical dust. Glass looked nice. Probably the lens that was in the best shape of the three. Comes with the bubble display case. Front cap. No rear cap.
35 Summaron - This one looked pretty decent too. Did see a noticeable scratch in the edge of the glass. I didn't have this lens in my hands long enough to figure out which element the scratch was on. Again, typical dust. Comes with the bubble display case. Front cap. No rear caps.
It does come with some accessories.
A Kodak-brand filter for the Summitar. It looks like a very pale yellow filter - perhaps a UV filter.
Leitz VIOOH viewfinder - looked a bit dim but not bad. There is heavy corrosion on the back. Masking and parallax correction mechanisms seem to work ok. Comes with the original leather case which was in good shape.
Leitz IROOA hood - descent shape. A bit of the black paint has worn/peeled off on the very edge of the hood.
Leitz IUFOO hood - great shape. Some scratches but very nice over all.
Leitz 12585 or 12585H hood -can't remember which version. Also in great shape. Some scratches but still very nice. The white text is yellowing a bit.
Plus a smelly old camera-bag. Looks like a typical beige camera bag from the 1980's. Well used.
The camera owner does not want to break up the kit.
LeicaTom
10-30-2007, 16:13
........sounds like average well worn and used gear
I`d say an honest $200/$300 for the whole lot, nothing you can resell there for a profit, doesn`t sound like it`s in really good shape , it`s all user gear, nothing special, if it was pre 1945 IIIC gear it would be maybe worth $600+ but this sounds all like just normal stuff that`s all worn out and need CLA`s
....nothing to get excited about ;)
If it was offered to me I`d pass.......
Tom
burninfilm
10-30-2007, 23:56
LeicaTom, are you stating the price you'd offer ($200-$300) in terms of how much YOU would be willing to pay? I'm fairly certain the outfit would sell for more on Ebay if it was parted out, especially if the Summaron lens is the f2.8 version as previously stated. No, you wouldn't get the $400-$500 that the f2.8 Summar LTM usually recieves, but depending on the severity of the glass damage, you'd still net about $100-$200. Plus, you'd get about $100-$150 for the IIIc, $75-$125 for the 90mm Elmar, $50-$75 for the Summitar, and maybe $50 for the other smaller accessories. Even at these prices, the lowest range still comes out to about $350-$400. Of course, you'd have to break up the kit to realize these prices.
But, as you stated, the outfit isn't worth much, and especially isn't worth the $1000-$1500 the seller is hoping for. Like you, I'd probably only buy if the price was low enough (within the $200-$300 range you specified). So, I'm not really disputing what you said about the value of the kit, just providing another opinion of what the items are valued at individually in the current market.
Besides, LeicaTom, of course you'd pass! It probably isn't one of the "Half Race" IIIc Leicas!
I had the same experience a couple of years back, someone's heirs had their gear on consignment at a local camera shop and they were way too optimistic on the price versus the condition.
Assume that camera needs a CLA, plus whatever. The lenses sound pretty beat and will probably need a CLA as well. - All in all, you need to ask is it going to be worth your trouble?
That said, about five years ago I did pick up a working Rollecord V and a Rollei 35 S for hundred bucks at an estate sale. The family was liquidating the entire household and definitely had no interest or use for fiddly contraptions.
Save your gear from your heirs and sell it before you pass on.;)
LeicaTom
10-31-2007, 04:50
of course you'd pass! It probably isn't one of the "Half Race" IIIc Leicas!
.....that`s looking at it one-sided here
While I shoot mostly with 45/46' era bodies, I use lenses of all eras, doesn`t matter, I may be partial to one certain type of body while this is what I like and work with, but when gear comes up that is in good condition and might be reasonable to use as barter material and at a good price I`d buy it without question
Read the OP`s description of the gear very carefully , ok if someone was offering me a "Half Race" in that condition along with damaged/dirty lenses, I`d more than likely turn it down, or offer them "parts" camera price
In this case and after reading what the OP posted, the camera body is more than likely the most valuable item on this list, a decent 1946/47 IIIC needing a CLA is worth $200/$225
The OP asked what the gears worth to buy, not to break down and sell, what I stated the other night was/is a fair price for what the gear is, if it was all mint/mint minus condition than I`d suspect that it would be nearing the $700 mark in a reasonable estimate......but the gear is at best EX but mostly USER condition
Also, for some gear it`s not worth the trouble of cleaning it and sending it to CLA and then posting it to the online auction, the Summaron really does`nt excite me that much, if it was a rigid Summicron in LTM then that would be a different story
Condition is everything, when you use gear or if you are a collector and also when your selling, I always try to sell/trade quality gear, it`s better for your reputation that way
There`s only a handful of Leitz items out there, that don`t make any difference what condition they are in and we are`nt dealing with a compur or a 3 digit Leica, it`s just a IIIF
Tom
PS: You can buy anything on evilbay.......that place is great for some things and for others a place to off load junk, I`ve seen great deals on there and I`ve seen junk sell for crazy prices, it`s all what people are willing to spend on it, I`ve already set my limits for gear I still want, if I get it for that amount fine.....if not it remains on my wish list
I did mention to the vendor several times that the asking price was way too high. He would just shrug his shoulders and say "He (the owner of the camera) wants $1000-1500 for it." I even had my IIIf+Summarit with me and took it out of my bag to compare. It's looks like a brand new camera and both body and lens were CLA'd. I told him how much (or how little) I paid for it just to test his reaction but he wasn't surprised. He just kept saying that camera owner wanted at least $1000 for the kit... To be honest, I think that the reason why he took on this consignment might be because the client was either a loyal customer of his father or perhaps he just thought that he would have a better chance of selling a Leica than the most of the other ancient cameras he had.
LeicaTom
10-31-2007, 08:00
I did mention to the vendor several times that the asking price was way too high. He would just shrug his shoulders and say "He (the owner of the camera) wants $1000-1500 for it." I even had my IIIf+Summarit with me and took it out of my bag to compare. It's looks like a brand new camera and both body and lens were CLA'd. I told him how much (or how little) I paid for it just to test his reaction but he wasn't surprised. He just kept saying that camera owner wanted at least $1000 for the kit... To be honest, I think that the reason why he took on this consignment might be because the client was either a loyal customer of his father or perhaps he just thought that he would have a better chance of selling a Leica than the most of the other ancient cameras he had.
I`ve had to explain to some people on evilbay that the camera`s that they were selling were`nt even user grade cameras, but good for only parts, some looking at other auctions I`ve won, convinced them that their gear was`nt worth thousand`s of dollars
Some people just see the name LEICA and get $$$ signs in their head, when in all reality there` s a select few cameras and lens combinations that are truly worth over the $1,000/$1,500 mark
(not counting M`s and modern equipment)
I`m talking about LTM here only
After the camera`s sitting there at the store for two years the seller will be happy to sell it for whatever he can get, unless someone with too much money and not enough brains comes into the store, that`s like somewhere in another thread here on the site, people have quoted it`s best to KNOW people who KNOW what the real value of gear is all about and that the lone wolf`s out there who go about getting the gear by just acting on it end up paying double or even triple what something`s worth just because they didn`t seek anyone`s advice in the first place.......
Tom
burninfilm
10-31-2007, 08:45
Tom, honestly, I think you took me WAY to seriously the last time around. My comment about you passing on the outfit because it wasn't a "Half Race" Leica was meant more as a joke than anything! Sorry if this got lost in translation, so-to-speak. Furthermore, I wasn't really replying to the original poster, who hasn't replied to this thread in a while. I was just offering another viewpoint about the value of the equipment.
Now, I get a chuckle when I see people say something like "I'd say an honest $200/$300 for the whole lot", yet then go off to say something like this:
In this case and after reading what the OP posted, the camera body is more than likely the most valuable item on this list, a decent 1946/47 IIIC needing a CLA is worth $200/$225
So basically, you'd be hoping to get the 90mm Elmar, 35 f2.8 Summaron, and everything else for free? Of course everyone likes to get a great deal, but let's at least keep this premise of yours in mind when providing information about value. Furthermore, I believe the original poster was looking for information about a "fair price", not a "really good price that'll net me some extra income". Perhaps we have different ideas of a fair price? Besides, I don't know if I'd consider a well worn, well scratched IIIc body with missing vulcanite as "decent" anyway, which was the reason why I valued the camera body at around $150.
For examples of current going prices for user 46/47 IIIc Leicas needing a CLA, check these out:
Ebay IIIc #1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-Screw-Mount-Body_W0QQitemZ200162462649QQihZ010QQcategoryZ30030 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Ebay IIIc #2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-35mm-RANGEFINDER-camera-body-272384_W0QQitemZ260170265539QQihZ016QQcategoryZ300 30QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
This one has flash sync, but is still a IIIc, and otherwise appears to be in much nicer condition, and consequently sold for slightly more:
Ebay IIIc #3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Leica-IIIc-Screw-Mount-Body_W0QQitemZ200160362688QQihZ010QQcategoryZ30030 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
LeicaTom
10-31-2007, 10:50
Burninfilm: well, I missed reading that damaged vulcanite part..... so sorry ok it`s only worth $100 does that make you feel better? Geeze folks I don`t get people, you try to be helpful and people make a joke out of it......or mock you for what you say, etc. :(
All I know is I personally sold a near spotless June/July production 1946 "Flat top" IIIC about 4 months also for $225
(it was the fastest Leica I`ve ever sold, in less than 2 hours!)
and the new owner was very very impressed - he didn`t even have to get a CLA it was still "on the money" after all these years, he`s shooting passionately with it :D
What I quoted was the VALUE what the camera`s worth, not what they are selling for, ok?
Please read and understand what I`m saying.......
$200/$225 is the going value for the postwar era pre-sharkskin 1946/47 Leica IIIC`s
The Sharkskin IIIC in mint/mint minus is very desirable by collectors
*while almost 85% of all production had contaminated chrome solution - and have damaged/pitting and peeling chrome plating*
These IIIC`S can reach up to $400+ depending on what side of the Atlantic you live on......
Take care and have a great day! :)
Tom
burninfilm
10-31-2007, 12:10
Burninfilm: well, I missed reading that damaged vulcanite part..... so sorry ok it`s only worth $100 does that make you feel better? Geeze folks I don`t get people, you try to be helpful and people make a joke out of it......or mock you for what you say, etc. :(
You wouldn't happen to be mocking me now, would you? :p
Seriously, I'm not trying to argue with you at all. In fact, if you carefully read my first reply to this thread, I was actually agreeing with you for the most part. I've always liked reading your posts, and found your explanation of the war-time and immediate post-war Leicas very interesting. Sorry if feel I'm being overly critical of your posts. Take care, and have a good one!
Danny
I think that the original poster is currently out of town. I'm sure that he will chime in when he gets back.
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