It just arrived yesterday.....The 1946 "Half Race" Leica IIIC for Repairs/Restoration

[LeicaTom]

Well, the IIIC finally arrived yesterday morning from Jack`s Camera ........another very late production "Wartime" stepped rewind platform "Half Race" bearing shutter camera #3974xx from February 13th 1946

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/HRLeica1ajpeg

Overall cosmetics are very nice with a few case rub marks on the back of the camera, some brassing/wear on the slow speed dial and some tripod circle rubs on the base plate, the main ugly part is the missing vulcanite

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/HRLeica3jpeg


http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/HRLeica5jpeg


and it does have a major problem........that`s not a WHITE "K" stamp on the shutter curtain, it`s a nasty hole!

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/HRLeica6jpeg


The shutter curtains need to be patched or replaced and there`s a 1960`s roll of Kodachrome slide film JAMMED in the camera still, must be in there over 35 years now :(

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/HRLeica4jpeg


The other "odd" thing about this camera is that the instruction plate is fixed to the camera wrong, it`s upside down, well many will say, this was just put in wrong after a CLA.......but no, this is the SECOND camera I have seen in the 397xxx series that has the upside down instruction plate, this was possibly a workshop mistake with the camera run for the 13th (bad luck day?) well, just strange that both cameras of the same run and same day have this oddity about them?

Anyway the camera looks worse then it really is and all it needs is some TLC and for the "doctor" to have a look at it, which will be happening soon

I do plan on recovering it, still debating weither it will be as original styled vulcanite or something special, I`m inclined to do something for myself that`s personal, this time and I`ve been looking at that website

http://www.cameraleather.com/

And I`m throwing around between these three colors maybe?

http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/CL_djade.gif (http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/deep_jade.htm)

Deep Jade

http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/L_blk.gif (http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/black_lizard.htm)

Black Lizzard

or

http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/levant_black.gif (http://www.cameraleather.com/colors/levant_black.htm)

Levant Black (close to original)

I`ve decided for sure it`s NOT going to become a black paint camera, the chrome finish is way too nice to do that and it`s rare to fnd a camera in these serial number ranges that are in good shape chromewise

Well, I`ll keep everyone informed as to the progress of the Repairs/Restoration

Tom

[radiocemetery]

Nice catch Tom, I was watching this auction but I have decided I need a lot more Leica education. Did you know all the info. about the mechanics of the shutter just by the serial no. or are there any visual clues?

Other than the shutter repair and missing vulcanite, it really looks nice and clean.

Steve

PS I would probably choose the green leather.

[LeicaTom]

Nice catch Tom, I was watching this auction but I have decided I need a lot more Leica education. Did you know all the info. about the mechanics of the shutter just by the serial no. or are there any visual clues?

Other than the shutter repair and missing vulcanite, it really looks nice and clean.

Steve

PS I would probably choose the green leather.

Hello Steve,

Well, I`ve always been a fan of the very late production "Wartime" styled IIIC bodies....first because of vanity,
(I really like that step under the rewind lever and the little knobs on it and the diopter lever)
.....but then as I went on I learned more about them and found they are such good quality shooting cameras :)

They call them "Wartime" because of the raised platform below the rewind lever was a trademark of the first series styled Leica IIIC `s which started in 1940

I also have Leica IIIC #3972xx which I researched extensively like 4 months ago, to find it was in an order of cameras built/delivered on February 13th, 1946 Nos # 397208-397519

I don`t have 100% confirmation but I believe these were cameras for the US Army Post Exchance in Germany (Frankfurt) or for use by the US Army CID/MP`s or Military Intelligence Units working in Germany

Many were also given as "gifts" from General Officers to Staff Officers working under them etc.

As for the "Half Race" bearings explanation please go have a look here

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47102

Yes and with the recovering I think I`m leaning toward the Jade Green myself, very pretty

Tom

[John Shriver]

Lovely chrome on that one! Very delicate engraving on the top. Nice enough to almost be tempted to have CRR Luton bake on real Vulcanite.

[LeicaTom]

Lovely chrome on that one! Very delicate engraving on the top. Nice enough to almost be tempted to have CRR Luton bake on real Vulcanite.

Well, I have yet to call them and ask all the details about the job

The insurance and taxes for sending complete cameras back and forth from Europe is crazy and I don`t have 6 months to wait for the body to come back
(Not that this has crossed my mind, becasue both of my 397xxx series bodies are
EX++/Mint Minus and that`s highly uncommon for 1945/46 era cameras)

If they can do it with just the shell and not the camera, I`d consider doing it as camera parts etc. and finish and adjust the camera back to the body here back home
(still would be like a $175 expense) I don`t plan on reselling this, but then it`s an idea to know that I`ve done it, I guess that the EM CRR Luton vulcanite is the ONLY hot treated coverings still being made and it`s the closest to the original factory style vulcanite

No one else does the heat processed vulvanite? .......anyone here in the states?

Thanks for stoppin by John!

Tom

PS: I haven`t put enough money together for my UK trip, but I do want to get over there for shooting some English "pinup" work......then I guess a trip to Luton is in order :)

[raid]

Hey Guys,
My IIIc has number 480xxx. What is its production date?

[raid]

Hello Raid,
111c Serial Nos. 480,001 to 495,000 1949/ 50

Regards,
William

Hello William,
Thanks for giving me the production years for my IIIc. Such information makes the camera more interesting to own. My IIIc is then most likely built in 1949. Are the last three digits given in order of production?

Cheers,

[raid]

Hello Raid,
I believe models were allocated batch numbers of say for example 1000 serial numbers xx2001 to xx3000 and the diecast frames (111c onwards) would be marked with this number.The cameras would be assembled by hand and tested at various stages in assembly and fitted with a top plate with serial number that matched the die cast body serial number.When all cameras in that batch had been assembled and finally checked they would then update the production register and release the batch of cameras to Sales Department.
Because the serial number on the camera body frame casting is always issued with a matching top plate serial number,with Leica cameras it is always possible to check that a camera is original and not made up from the surplus spare main parts from other dis-assembled Leica cameras outside the factory.This is very important with the very rare collectable Leica models and it is vital for the would be purchaser to have the camera stripped down and have this checked as the first stage in helping to confirm authenticity before making any expensive purchase.
Regards,
William

Hi William,

So there really is no way of telling the exact production month or day.
Thanks again for your clarifications. This is interesting information.

Cheers,

[radiocemetery]

Great information here, Tom thanks for the link explaining the half race Leica. Dr LeoB's pictures helped settle that in my mind.


Tom, I guess it is up to you as to which of your Barnack style cameras you are going to sell to me. Will it be that Canon IIf2 or this new old Leica that needs some new clothes? ;)

Steve

[LeicaTom]

Hi William,

So there really is no way of telling the exact production month or day.
Thanks again for your clarifications. This is interesting information.

Cheers,

Leitz has ALL the production dates and shipping information in their archives, each camera was listed as to what day it was built and where it was shipped to and or to who received it, just getting to it is the PROBLEM, they don`t have the manpower at the factory to send everyone who asks them information on their cameras
I think that they should sell a "cardex" of the production of the camera, like VW and Porsche do for their owners....it would just take them to HIRE somone special to do the job, would be nice to see them do a service for customers........


I`m going to be pulling some old strings I still have from my collector days back in Germany to find out more information
(I personally received my information from a well known auction house who were selling a very very late
"Half Race" IIIC that was sold at their auction a camera that was like 57 cameras away from the production of this camera)

"Wartime" IIIC`s (pre May 1945 cameras) are maybe easier to track down beacuse Mr Lager has all the information on them in his archives and has also written some very good books on the subject as well, that information is out there

I`m going to personally research the POSTWAR Leica IIIC production history from cameras 391000 onwards to 397600
(about 6,000 and then some cameras)
*The stepped rewind platform cameras built after the German Surrender*
while NOTHING has been published about these cameras, they have always been thrown in the "lot" with other wartime era cameras , but they have a very interesting history all of their own as well

So if anyone out there in RFF world who owns a Leica IIIC "Stepped Rewind Platform" camera built between 392000 to 397600
give me a yell off the board while I`ll add your camera to my records and will try to find out more about your camera

Tom

[LeicaTom]

A few years back Leica had an information service where one could contact a Herr Francis Pilet who had access to the original registers and he could give you information on Leica cameras and lenses from even the early Leitz production. He could give you the shipping date from the factory and to whom it had been delivered.This service was provided free of charge but is now no longer available. I am sure that if Leica at Solms were to make a small charge for this service say $20 for each inquiry the service would be self financing.I am sure many Leica enthusiasts would be very willing to pay this small charge in order to get this interesting information from the Leica archive. Has anybody suggested this to Leica at Solms?
Regards, William

I think that`s a great idea.....I`d pay for the service, just as I have for my old vintage VW`s, I`m talking to someone in Wetzlar this week

Tom

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Although I am more into Zorkis than Leicas: I saw one Leica with this number:
Fl.No 38079 , is that one of the German army?
It is a IIIc with body nr. 337341

[LeicaTom]

Although I am more into Zorkis than Leicas: I saw one Leica with this number:
Fl.No 38079 , is that one of the German army?
It is a IIIc with body nr. 337341


Re edited: it was #377341 = which clearly might be a Luftwaffen Leica IIIC, But I know where this camera came from and how much it was bought for, plus it`s been submerged in water or held in a very bad climate for a long time, any sort of restoration would be impossible, it`s also just a camera with the fl. no on the top plate, no other Luftwaffen markings, that means it had grey vulcanite at one time and that`s fallen off and been replaced with the black and with it went the original "Luftwaffen Eigenturm" embossing on it.......

Tom

PS: this camera was/is on the evilbay at $1,000 that`s CRAZY money, you can buy a really clean one if you research and take your time for $2,000 to $3,000 and maybe even get the original matching numbers lens

[LeicaTom]

Great information here, Tom thanks for the link explaining the half race Leica. Dr LeoB's pictures helped settle that in my mind.


Tom, I guess it is up to you as to which of your Barnack style cameras you are going to sell to me. Will it be that Canon IIf2 or this new old Leica that needs some new clothes? ;)

Steve

Heya Steve,

Well, I did have one of the IIF2`s up for sale last month, but it`s become such a great user, that I`ve decided not to sell it
- sorry

I might consider trading/selling the IIF2 "SHOW" camera, it`s complete down to the very rare case and grip and a f1.5 50mm on it , but it would`nt be cheap....I`d be more interested in the trade for the camera I`m looking for below *read on*

Ohh the "Half Race`s" are not for sale , I`m pretty much looking for any of them I can find in good shape, I have late one`s and a early postwar "ball bearing" shutter camera coming soon, maybe down the road I`ll look for a nice mid range serial numbered one, but I`m off the camera trading/buying trail for a while, but the next project I do want is a really run down IIIC K Grey for a
full restoration project
*This will take some time to find a suitable camera at a price I can agree with, also one that`s verified, has like less than 30% original paint and most if not all vulcanite gone, I have to find a camera that was really used hard*

I did recently have a 1946' Leica IIIC in the #402xxx series that was really really clean and worked flawlessly (without a CLA) sold it for $225
*I think that was the fastest Leica sale I ever made on the net....it lasted less than 2 hours!*

Tom

[landsknechte]

I think that`s a great idea.....I`d pay for the service, just as I have for my old vintage VW`s, I`m talking to someone in Wetzlar this week

Tom

I'll second that. I'd gladly pay a reasonable sum for the research.

[radiocemetery]

Tom,
I am just beginning to do homework on the Leicas and other Barnack style cameras. I bought a lens from David Murphy and mentioned to him that I was looking at a Zorki as a user and a "to learn on camera". He suggested that I consider a Canon RF instead. So I read up on the Canons and have been sniped numerous times on that auction site trying to get one. That doesn't really bother me as these cameras seem to come up regularly.

My problem is that I have never even handled a Canon RF and I will need a camera that will work for my eyes. I wear bi-focals and am 55 yrs. old. So I may be leaning to the Canon 7 or P, but I still think I will end up with a Leica or Barnack style Canon like the IIF2. I like them for their compact size and style and the look and feel of the pictures they produce such as those you have posted from your shoots.

So, thanks for the reply. I really can't afford a show camera at this point. It sounds like the sale of your 1946 Leica would be a deal I could handle, so I keep my eyes open. Good luck with your projects and keep up the good work!

Regards, Steve

[LeicaTom]

Tom,
I am just beginning to do homework on the Leicas and other Barnack style cameras. I bought a lens from David Murphy and mentioned to him that I was looking at a Zorki as a user and a "to learn on camera". He suggested that I consider a Canon RF instead. So I read up on the Canons and have been sniped numerous times on that auction site trying to get one. That doesn't really bother me as these cameras seem to come up regularly.

My problem is that I have never even handled a Canon RF and I will need a camera that will work for my eyes. I wear bi-focals and am 55 yrs. old. So I may be leaning to the Canon 7 or P, but I still think I will end up with a Leica or Barnack style Canon like the IIF2. I like them for their compact size and style and the look and feel of the pictures they produce such as those you have posted from your shoots.

So, thanks for the reply. I really can't afford a show camera at this point. It sounds like the sale of your 1946 Leica would be a deal I could handle, so I keep my eyes open. Good luck with your projects and keep up the good work!

Regards, Steve

Yes, the IIF2 is really a collector camera....the LAST and the BEST of the "Knob top" Canon Leica Copies

The IIF or IVSB2 is almost the same thing and you get the super quality shooting enjoyment and experience for under $250 sometimes, the f1.8 50mm Canon is a great lens and was standard on most early and mid 50`s Canon RF`s

And a postwar Leica IIIC is still the best way to go when you are breaking into the vintage Leica scene, watch out for bad pitted and peeling chrome and sometimes vulcanite and shutter damage, but still there`s lot`s of 1946/47 IIIC`s out there coming out of ex- US Army Officers estates enough to fill a wheel barrow up with.........

Just push it towards my garden :D

Take care and good searching!

Tom

[Rob-F]

I was recently looking at a somewhat earlier wartime IIIc that has a metal plate fixed to the bottom inside surface of the chamber, visible with the lens removed. Never noticed this on any other Leica, including my IIIc models. Leica Tom's does not look like it has one, either. Was this plate present in some early IIIc production?

Nice camera, Tom! BTW, I recently had two IIIc cameras overhauled by John Maddox. One needed a shutter curtain. Great work and great price! Oh--Have you ruled out a Crocodile leather?

[LeicaTom]

I was recently looking at a somewhat earlier wartime IIIc that has a metal plate fixed to the bottom inside surface of the chamber, visible with the lens removed. Never noticed this on any other Leica, including my IIIc models. Leica Tom's does not look like it has one, either. Was this plate present in some early IIIc production?

Nice camera, Tom! BTW, I recently had two IIIc cameras overhauled by John Maddox. One needed a shutter curtain. Great work and great price! Oh--Have you ruled out a Crocodile leather?

Rob,

Humm metal plate in the shutter chamber? , is it part of a hookup for the rare Mooly C motor maybe?
(Can you get photos?)

I`m going with an imitation black vevant material on #3974xx from Camera Leather

I really can`t afford the $200+ CRR Luton UK vulcanite, I don`t have rich girlfriend who`d pay for it and I really don`t have a spare $250 laying around, and I don`t think I`d use it for vulcanite recovering anyway
(I`D BUY ANOTHER HALF RACE CAMERA)
*someday I`ll find a decent 1946' "Flat Top" Body shell "parts camera" with good vulcanite and just make a swap out*

I decided to remain as true to original as possible afterall, #3974xx and #3972xx are going to see the "doctor" soon, I`m sure 2xx will be an easy fix, with some TLC and adjustments she`s back to shooting and showing off camera, but 4xx is going to need some work on that shutter curtain, maybe a patch will take? If not then it`s off to Youxin Ye for whole new curtains, I`ll have (3) great poswar "stepper" rewinds to work with

*I`m adding a #392xxx series camera to my stable soon as well*

(#3974xx will be the main working LTM for the PinUp`s along with my trusty and fun Canon IIF2)

Tom

ps: Untill I can find a "Grey" IIIC K for a full restoration, then I`d consider doing the CRR vulcanite and I`m only sending the shell to England to do, not the whole camera......... the shipping, import taxes and duties are way too expensive to make that something I want to repeat too often in my life

[LeicaTom]

Reedited: I`m still looking for other clean camera`s in the #391xxx, 394xxx, 395xxx and 396xxx serial number ranges then I`ll have versions of all the postwar 1945/46 Leica IIIC`s made to fill in all the gaps and finish some research that`s I`m doing together for the planned Leica book

Tom

[Rob-F]

Tom, I haven't seen the IIIcK Kugellager referred to before as "half-race." What does this refer to? Something about the ballbearing race, perhaps?

[LeicaTom]

Tom, I haven't seen the IIIcK Kugellager referred to before as "half-race." What does this refer to? Something about the ballbearing race, perhaps?

Rob,

Please note: the "Kugellager" cameras and "Half Race" cameras are TWO different animals :)

The kugellager cameras have multiple ball bearings in the shutter mechanism, for smoother operation under extreme cold weather conditions (used first in Norway and then later in Russia and also High Altitude Tests conducted by the German Airforce)

These were produced from 1943 to 1945 - below is the thread that I started with more information about them.....

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45057

The half race cameras have the half race bearings in the shutter mechanism, which were a simplified version of the former shutter design featuring different and fewer bearings in which the future shutter design for the IIIF would be based and developed on

These were produced from 1945 to early 1946 only - below is the thread that explains more about them.....

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47102

Please have a look there and that will hopefully give you a better idea about what all this gibberish is about

I think the cameras look really good too.....but there`s more to them then just all that :)

Tom

[landsknechte]

And a postwar Leica IIIC is still the best way to go when you are breaking into the vintage Leica scene, watch out for bad pitted and peeling chrome and sometimes vulcanite and shutter damage, but still there`s lot`s of 1946/47 IIIC`s out there coming out of ex- US Army Officers estates enough to fill a wheel barrow up with.........

Not to completely hijack the thread, but what would you say the proportion of IIIc's from 46-47 first came through the PX system?

[LeicaTom]

Not to completely hijack the thread, but what would you say the proportion of IIIc's from 46-47 first came through the PX system?

Ohhh that`s no hijack, good question.......I`m glad you mentioned it, I appreciate your nterest in the postwar IIIC`s :)

I think 85% of all Leica IIIC production from May 1945 to Mid 1947 were issued to the US Army, either directly to the Signal Corps Photographers Branch and then as they were established by spring 1946 into the US Army Post Exchange Systems in Germany and Austria
*Please Note: after the Kardon folly the US Military was really anxious to have the Signal Corps outfitted with NEW cameras as quickly as possible....... so only days after Wetzlar was occupied by the Allies, cameras were being pressed into service for use in the ETO and PTO by the US Army*
(The PX services came later....)

15% of the rest of production was thinly spread across Europe, mainly Switzerland and Sweden

This is all a bit of guessing........ but I`m researching more on the entire postwar period up to 1947/48
*currently the Leitz factory archives are NOT accessible, but I can only hope that this status changes in the near future

And what history shows us is by 1949 Ernst Leitz NYC had restarted it`s re-importing of the Leica back to the USA and the BRD was being established with it`s new democratic government, sending Germany on it`s way to becoming the Economic Wonder of the 1950`s

Tom

PS: After 1946 many Leica`s were also sent across the globe to wherever the
US Navy and Airforce were stationed, I also recall an old friend during my tour of duty in Germany
(a retired US Army Major)
who bought his IIIF in the Tokyo PX in 1950 along with some early Nikkor lenses, he ended up with more Japanese glass then German.....I thought he was crazy, now I know why he worked with them :)

[landsknechte]

I'm actually a WWII reenactor with a Signal Corps photographer impression, so that is certainly an intriguing possibility given my interests. It's yet another bit of information that makes me chomp at the bit all the more eagerly in hopes that the archives will someday, somehow, be accessable to us mortals.

Thanks,
--Chris

[LeicaTom]

I'm actually a WWII reenactor with a Signal Corps photographer impression, so that is certainly an intriguing possibility given my interests. It's yet another bit of information that makes me chomp at the bit all the more eagerly in hopes that the archives will someday, somehow, be accessable to us mortals.

Thanks,
--Chris

Chris,

Well, most of the Combat Photographers with the USASC were shooting with big stuff, large format stuff for the Military, but their "personal" cameras for TIGHT situations were Leica`s and Contax`s (with 35mm and 50mm lenses)

Leica IIIC`s even in their early 1940/41 form rarely made it into the hands of a US Solider until after hostilities ended in 1945, but some were used by the British Military - smuggled into England through the "Shetland Bus" (that information is somewhere in the forums) from Norway and also through the RAF flying candlestine Mosquito missions to Sweden for Military goods barters

My opinion, for a really good Reenactment look I`d go for a Black Leica II or III or a Chrome IIIb for "correctness" with a f3.5 50mm Elmar with a "used" little black FISON hood, with the "rare" brown everyday FLATNOSE case that`s if you are doing the WW2 look (SEE THE PHOTOGRAPHERS)
in Darryl F. Zanuck`s 1962 classic war epic "The Longest Day" for the "best" impression
(I was thinking up of doing a Korean War era impression Civilian Corespondent look, if I ever attend the shows *Reading, Pa. Show etc.*)
That way I can hang a stepped rewind platform IIIC around my neck with a LTM Nikkor f1.4 50mm/or f2.0 85mm and still be correct ala David Duncan Douglas

Tom

PS: I read in your signature that you have a Leica III to IIIa conversion and a prewar Elmar - there you GO!
That`s about as good as it gets for having a correct WW2 Combat Photographer`s camera :)

[landsknechte]

My IIIc is even less usable for reenacting, as it's a IIIf conversion. Still, it's neat to know there might be an interesting history there.

I fell in with a group that portrays the 3rd Infantry Division, and it just so happens that they had a rather eclectically equipped ad hoc photo section. Most of the guys were infantrymen and engineers that were pulled off the line just after Anzio when they formed the unit. As my quest for a Signal Corps PH-47 (the military Speed Graphic) hasn't borne fruit, it works out well for me. I use a 1939 chrome IIIa conversion with a 1937 Elmar 50/3.5, 1937 Elmar 90/4, and a 1947 Hektor 135/4.5. Kodak Retina I tucked in the pocket as a backup. GE DW-48 meter. All sorts of fun stuff that'll probably bore the pants off of the rest of the forum. :rolleyes:

I'm very fortunate to have some great photographs of the unit to work from:

http://www.warfoto.com/
http://www.dogfacesoldiers.org/

[BronicaLee]

my vote is for the black lizzard...

[Rob-F]

Tom, thanks for the clarification. I was assuming the K model and the "half-race were the same model--I made that association on account of the models having ball bearings. I've got it now! There is always more to learn about Leicas!

[LeicaTom]

my vote is for the black lizzard...

I`ve decided that I`m going with the LEVANT BLACK covering for #3974xx

The damaged film cassette in #3974xx was removed today, it was a Kodak Slide Film one dating from the late 1960`s early 70`s, very badly twisted and tangled up inside along with some brown yarn!!!!

I figure the camera`s been out of commision for at least 30 years maybe more?
(thanks for all the hard work Leo - the camera is currently at the "Doctors" house having all this work done to it)

Now this camera will be photographed through and through while it`s apart to document part of some extensive research that I`m doing about these postwar era cameras and details about the "Half Race" shutter mechanism

The curtains on #3974xx are burn hole damaged, but it looks like they might be fixable afterall?
When this is all done I`ll have a killer "user" camera, good to see her come back to life after sitting around for more than 30+ years in a damaged state

More about all that soon, I`m sure Leo can tell it all better, about how nasty the camera was inside........



And LOOKY LOOKY! another stepped rewind platform IIIC I just bought off of evilbay tonight.................


http://www.members.aol.com/winkermeister/LeicaIICebay1.jpeg

It`s a camera at the end of the #393xxx series run (maybe August 1945?)
*I can`t get access to postwar Leitz records right now so I have to approximate the delivery dates of my cameras, loosely based on what I know from pre May 1945 records*

It`s going to need a FULL CLA and NEW CURTAINS as well
so this one`s going to the "Doctor" too :D

Tom

PS: The SUMMAR is already SOLD! - Thanks Chris!

[LeicaTom]

http://www.warfoto.com/
http://www.dogfacesoldiers.org/

Chris,

Thanks for the links there :)

That amazing 1945 IIIC K "Grey" that I owned for about 3 months
(and now resides quietly again with it`s former owner)
was a camera used by a US Army Signal Corps officer after late May 1945 in the ETO

The camera had it`s original embossed Leica everyday "flat nose" brown leather case with the officer`s name in gold leaf on the top of the case
*this camera was one of about roughly 500 cameras that were presented to
ranking staff officers who were with the US Army Occupying Forces in May/June/July 1945*

I want to figure out a way to trace the military career of this officer so some light can be shed on the camera`s early years.......

I do suspect it was used to photograph various cities in wartorn Germany 1945/46 (as long as the officer was on duty in Europe)
Sadly there were no photographs with the camera when it was sold from the officer`s estate and the owner didn`t have a way to contact the surviving relatives

I wonder where I have to start to find a deceased officer`s military records?
(All we have to go by is his name and that he was in the Signal Corps)

Tom

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I just started to refurbish my IIIc (a 409xxx) so I guess its from 1946. I want to change the covering: I had to remove a flash sinc which was of course not original and by the way was not wired at all so wasn't functional: so there is now a gap in the body. Anyway I have stripped the thing but can't get off the two round lenses in at the front; the rings came off smootly but the lenses are quite stuck. How to remove these lenses (and what is around them - kind of black ring - ) without scratching the body? :rolleyes: .

thanks

PS, I am still in doubt whether to paint it black, gray or have it rechromed :cool: .

[landsknechte]

I just started to refurbish my IIIc (a 409xxx) so I guess its from 1946.

I think that's a 1947 serial number. Not sure though.

I want to figure out a way to trace the military career of this officer so some light can be shed on the camera`s early years.......

I do suspect it was used to photograph various cities in wartorn Germany 1945/46 (as long as the officer was on duty in Europe)
Sadly there were no photographs with the camera when it was sold from the officer`s estate and the owner didn`t have a way to contact the surviving relatives

I wonder where I have to start to find a deceased officer`s military records?
(All we have to go by is his name and that he was in the Signal Corps)

Tom
PM or email the name on the officer, and I'll start working on it. I know some of the records are limited to the family of the soldier, but there is a lot that can be had courtesy of the FOIA. I know a lot of people that are obsessive researchers, so I'll see what I can turn up.

I just sent you an email about the Summar, BTW.

--Chris

[radiocemetery]

Tom and Chris, I find this discussion fascinating. This link is to the US Gov. archives . The website states that the veterans signature or next of kin, if deceased, is required to release official military records.

http://www.archives.gov/veterans/

Good luck with your research.

Steve

[landsknechte]

You need to be the vet or the next of kin to get the full records, but through the FOIA the list of items not deemed to be an invasion of privacy is pretty useful of our purposes:

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT (FOIA)

As it Pertains to Military Records

The public has access to certain military service information without the veteran's authorization (or that of the next-of-kin of deceased veterans). Examples of information which may be available from Official Military Personnel Files without an unwarranted invasion of privacy include:

* Name
* Service Number
* Rank
* Dates of Service
* Awards and decorations
* City/town and state of last known address including date of the address


If the veteran is deceased:

* Place of birth
* Geographical location of death
* Place of burial

[LeicaTom]

PM or email the name on the officer, and I'll start working on it

I just sent you an email about the Summar, BTW.

--Chris

Chris,

I think this man may also have had a career possibly with the US Dept Of Agriculture under President Truman?

I`ll get the name to you shortly

Tom

[Dralowid]

LeicaTom,

I'm not normally like this but...please be aware that in researching the ownership of old Leicas that may have seen or been close to hositilities, there may be a chance that you might cause upset, grief or end up somewhere you really didn't want to go.

Enough said, but my attitude towards one of the cameras I have is not what it was when I started.

Michael

[LeicaTom]

LeicaTom,

I'm not normally like this but...please be aware that in researching the ownership of old Leicas that may have seen or been close to hositilities, there may be a chance that you might cause upset, grief or end up somewhere you really didn't want to go.

Enough said, but my attitude towards one of the cameras I have is not what it was when I started.

Michael

Michael,

I understand where you are coming from, but in the case of this one camera, it`s very impersonal, the former owners deceased and we have no contact to the family whatsoever, so it`s mearly a look into the man`s military career

They check political leaders in the country, to see if they skipped out on Vietnam, so checking the location of someone in the ETO in 1945/46 should`nt be a big deal, I`m not turning over any headstones, I`m just after some general historical facts like maybe what unit or company the man belonged to etc.

Tom

PS: 99.5% of all the camera`s I research were owned by ex- American GI`s but, there`s a very slight chance that another Allied member owned such a camera as well
I personally don`t really concern myself with anything other then the delivery history and some general facts about the camera, I doubt that I`ll really land a camera that was used by anyone really famous, I think all of General Eisenhower`s Leica belong to his estate still........:D

But the reality of it all , must of these camera if not all, Photographed the death, destruction and aftermath of Postwar Germany and Austria, while they were in the hands of US Servicemen and women serving in the ETO, they were recorders of that time`s current history, plain and simple, it was`nt a good time for many people, but nonetheless the cameras were there for that one reason to record the aftermath of the war and it`s surroundings, that`s why Leitz had pressed cameras directly into the hands of the Occupying Forces only days after Wetzlar was taken, most of the cameras that were issued in May/June and July 1945 went directly to members of the US Army Signal Corps Branch who were busy Photographing the outcome of the war

I personally use them now to Photograph, scantly clad beautiful pinup girls
and just as the famous Russ Meyer once said.......
"I Photograph women becuase it`s fun to do, it was a refreshing change to what I was used to doing before."
(Russ Meyer was a Combat Photographer in France and Germany 1944/45)

I think the cameras are now if not for the first time among pleasant company and being used for a really fun job!

[LeicaTom]

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/HRLeica4jpeg


The other "odd" thing about this camera is that the instruction plate is fixed to the camera wrong, it`s upside down, well many will say, this was just put in wrong after a CLA.......but no, this is the SECOND camera I have seen in the 397xxx series that has the upside down instruction plate, this was possibly a workshop mistake with the camera run for the 13th (bad luck day?) well, just strange that both cameras of the same run and same day have this oddity about them?



Well, I`ve discovered that this plate placement was INTENTIONAL and more than likely planned by the employee at Leitz who fitted the bottom plates to the cameras on that day in 1946 (February 13th) as a JOKE on the Americans, something humorous to add to some Leica history.......

I`d like to hear from anyone out there on the RFF if you have a Leica IIIC built between the numbers 397208 to 397519 that was the batch order from 13.02.46

I bet your instruction plate is on upside down! :)

Tom

PS: #3972xx and #3974xx BOTH have the instruction plate UPSIDE DOWN
they both have just been CLA`d by the "doctor" and I am KEEPING the instruction plates as they were put on the cameras, the wrong way :D

I just won`t let my assistant (*blonde*) ever load them she`ll be confused as hell when she opens the bottom plate ;) (jk!)

[landsknechte]

LeicaTom,

I'm not normally like this but...please be aware that in researching the ownership of old Leicas that may have seen or been close to hositilities, there may be a chance that you might cause upset, grief or end up somewhere you really didn't want to go.

Enough said, but my attitude towards one of the cameras I have is not what it was when I started.

Michael

Two things to keep in mind...

Objects themselves aren't capable of evil acts.

The history of a given object is there, whether you know about it or not.

In any event, researching this sort of thing through public archives is quite a bit more impersonal and distant than giving the grandkids a call.

[LeicaTom]

:rolleyes: Well LOOKY LOOKY! the LATEST "Half Race" just arrived here today.........

Another ebay auction win is this 1945 "Half Race" in the #393xxx series (about August 1945) this is the camera
I nicknamed the "PEARL HARBOR" Leica, because it came from an Ex- Military estate sale find outside of Honolulu, Hawaii
(I believe it was a Berlin Airlift Era "bringback" from an Air Force man -because 19th Troop Carrier Squadron was stationed at Hickham Field, Honolulu and helped fly the Airlift 1948/49 - and the 19th TCS were also the subject of the 1950 Hollywood movie "The Big Lift" starring Montgomery Clift and Paul Douglas *a fantastic movie btw!*)

*the serial numbers have been censored to protect the innocent.....*

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393aa.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393b.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393c.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393d.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393e.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393f.jpeg


http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393g.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/halfrace393h.jpeg

It`s a decent looking camera, that`s a soild 8+ has 99.8% Vulcanite and will need a FULL CLA and NEW CURTAINS
also will get a new slow speed knob and possibly a new bottom plate, camera will be 100% restored show or shoot ready

The Summar on it was a 1937 issue and was sold off the camera before it even got here.....people you were TOO SLOW that night I offered it and you missed an UNREAL LENS!!!!!

The BEST Summar I`ve ever seen in all the years I`ve done Leica - crystal clear and passed the flashlight test 100% - it has just a few specks of dust inside and a "stiff" aperture ring that`s it......overall a kickass deal at $105!!!!!
*Chris you are going to LOVE this lens!*

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/summar1.jpeg

http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/summar4.jpeg

My NEXT Summar Sale is going to be considerably more expensive..........

I think that the Summar`s are "in" with LTM Photographers now after so many years the Leitz Summar was labeled as a bad performer, but this has been proven wrong many times with the beautiful Leica "Glow" that this lens produces, lenses in this condition show the TRUE aspect of the glass, I can`t wait till Chris gets some work shot with it...... :D

This camera`s going to be fully restored and I MIGHT? Sell it!
While I have to finance my IIIC K project and also save money up for the book planned in the near future


Tom

[landsknechte]

I think that the Summar`s are "in" with LTM Photographers now after so many years the Leitz Summar was labeled as a bad performer, but this has been proven wrong many times with the beautiful Leica "Glow" that this lens produces, lenses in this condition show the TRUE aspect of the glass, I can`t wait till Chris gets some work shot with it...... :D


You're quite right. That is a heck of a lens!

I'm going to be burning quite a bit of film this weekend, so hopefully I'll soon have some good stuff to share.

Thanks,
--Chris

[LeicaTom]

You're quite right. That is a heck of a lens!

I'm going to be burning quite a bit of film this weekend, so hopefully I'll soon have some good stuff to share.

Thanks,
--Chris

Kool Kool!

I just read this, I had sent you an email, I noticed you got the Summar today......yeah that damm things`s almost like brand new :)

Can`t wait to see what it does for photos, when you do some you should start a thread....

Happy Shooting!

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Here`s a sample of the 1940`s styled PinUp Photoshoot I did with my dear friend and model
Miss Remee Martin and my 1946 "Half Race" Leica IIIC #3972xx with original issued f3.5 50mm Elmar
back in late August, before the camera went out for CLA


http://www.members.aol.com/Winkermeister/Remee.jpeg


This photoshoot idea was based from a rare US Army booklet printed in 1945 by the
Seventh Army Group HQ US Army showing a pretty girl demonstrating the proper holding
techniques of the Leica IIIC

Enjoy!

Tom

[landsknechte]

Alas, it looks like I'll have to wait until Halloween to get my negatives back from the outlab.

*sigh*

This is like asking a kid on Christmas morning to wait until New Years before opening any of the goodies under the tree.

[LeicaTom]

Alas, it looks like I'll have to wait until Halloween to get my negatives back from the outlab.

*sigh*

This is like asking a kid on Christmas morning to wait until New Years before opening any of the goodies under the tree.

Dammm that stinks...... :(

I just got back my negs from my "uncoated" Wartime Summitar color film TEST with #392xxx and my black n white work with a NEW f1.5 50mm Canon on #3972xx shot today about 12 hours ago they are scanned and I`ll be posting the results in two new threads on the site here soon......

I can`t wait to see what the Summar does, I know it`s going to be really good!

Tom

[Charles Woodhouse]

Hi Tom, I reckon the metal plate that the forum member can see in an early wartime IIIc is the cover for the slow speed escapement. This is similar in early IIIc cameras to the slow speed escapement cover in III's, IIIa's and IIIb's, except it has a setting lever on top at the front to activate the 10, 15 and 20 speeds. At some stage in production between no.386xxx and 391xxx the baffles were modified to a similar pattern to the postwar IIIc and onwards to the IIIg, and a slow speed escapement resetting lever was incorporated, operating off a gear at the base of the second curtain spindle.
There are so many variations of these "step" IIIc's!

[Charles Woodhouse]

I just started to refurbish my IIIc (a 409xxx) so I guess its from 1946. I want to change the covering: I had to remove a flash sinc which was of course not original and by the way was not wired at all so wasn't functional: so there is now a gap in the body. Anyway I have stripped the thing but can't get off the two round lenses in at the front; the rings came off smootly but the lenses are quite stuck. How to remove these lenses (and what is around them - kind of black ring - ) without scratching the body? :rolleyes: .

thanks

PS, I am still in doubt whether to paint it black, gray or have it rechromed :cool: .
Hi Ron, as you look at the front of the camera, the lens on the right should have two tiny indents in the black surround, and the edge of a carefully filed steel rule should fit into these indents but not touch the top cover. Very carefully turn this tool anti-clockwise and the lens should start to unscrew. Once it has started to move finger pressure and twisting should remove it. It is a plain glass and its only purpose is to protect the 45degree beam splitter underneath.
The lens on the left is actually a very shallow prism and rotating it adjusts the vertical alignment of the split image. It can often be prised out of its housing by careful fingernail pressure around the black surround. In more extreme situations
extremely careful prising with a very fine screwdriver may be necessary, but be very careful not to damage the ultra fine threads where the rangefinder bezels
screw into the top plate. Having removed the press fit shallow prism you will probably have to remove the ring that this prism's mount presses into. There are two slots in the front surface of this ring, and a suitable tool should remove it.
I always put a black dot at the top of the shallow prism as an aid to replacing it in approximately its correct orientation. It will have to be finallyadjusted for correct vertical adjustment before you tackle horizontal adjustment.

[landsknechte]

Dammm that stinks...... :(

I just got back my negs from my "uncoated" Wartime Summitar color film TEST with #392xxx and my black n white work with a NEW f1.5 50mm Canon on #3972xx shot today about 12 hours ago they are scanned and I`ll be posting the results in two new threads on the site here soon......

I can`t wait to see what the Summar does, I know it`s going to be really good!

Tom

BTW, what's your take on whether that Summar is coated or uncoated?

[LeicaTom]

BTW, what's your take on whether that Summar is coated or uncoated?

OHHHH that one I sold you is UNCOATED 100% :)

Tom

[LeicaTom]

Here`s a Leica IIIC "Half Race" with some goodies.....also pretty rare from the 396xxx series (November/December 1945)


http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/35-Leica-IIIc-outfit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28272QQihZ017QQi temZ270184873069QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Kit looks pretty nice, though the wide angle and longer lenses seem too old for the gear`s age (though "wartime" series Elmar 35`s are very rare if any were hardly made, so the 1930`s issue wide angle might? be original to the kit?) the longer lenses were issued after 570xxx+ after May 1945

The finder`s also a bit too old for the kit and the manual is too new, just pointing out the correct/incorrect pieces for all of those interested

Not a bad kit thought and I`d personally value it at being worth a soild $1,200

Let`s see if it goes over that.......?


..........and here`s another AMAZING "Half Race" on ebay now, (August/Sept 1945) which I personally bid on to $500, but I`m SURE this one`s going to go HIGHER than that
it`s a 98% mint US Army issue camera

I personaly think this was a
"Black Market"
camera that was NEVER USED and traded to a German civilian from a GI since new and then brought to the US from a Tourist Flea Market buy....
(that`s been sitting in cold storage since the early 1970`s!!!!!)

http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-IIIc-PRE-WAR-MODEL-SER-395997-IN-BEAUTIFUL-COND_W0QQitemZ290178666436QQihZ019QQcategoryZ30030 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think this one will go well over $600 and still be a bargain, it`s quite possibly the most perfect condition camera I`ve seen of that era 1945/46 in the "Half Race" series stepped rewind platform IIIC`s

Tom

[landsknechte]

Even the case is in amazingly good condition.

[LeicaTom]

Even the case is in amazingly good condition.

Yeah I wish I had $800 to throw at that right now........it`s worth every penny and almost
"too pretty"
to take pictures with :)


Tom