View Full Version : Printers...HP 9180B Vs. Epson 3800
Hi all,
I'm going to buy a printer so I'd like to know if someone of you experienced and/or compared the HP 9180B and the Epson 3800 not only for the price itself but, mainly, for the printing quality and ink use (is it true that the Epson 3800 needs also colour inks for b/w printing?).
Suggestions for other printers are also welcome.
I mainly do b/w photography and I scan my negs with a canoscan fs 2710.
Thanks in advance for any tip and advice.
Ciao :)
Hallo nico,
I don't know about the Epson, but two gentlemen at a camera club I go to bought the HP (April and June/July). I love the prints.
But. And this is a big but. One has had to have his printer replaced once (April) and the other ended up sending his back altoghether after two replacements.
It's a shame, I saw the review in B&W Photography and they loved it.
Remember that you'll also need to get some calibration hardware (Spider/Spyder?).
I will bring the B&W Photography magazine with the review to show you.
Hallo nico,
I don't know about the Epson, but two gentlemen at a camera club I go to bought the HP (April and June/July). I love the prints.
But. And this is a big but. One has had to have his printer replaced once (April) and the other ended up sending his back altoghether after two replacements.
It's a shame, I saw the review in B&W Photography and they loved it.
Remember that you'll also need to get some calibration hardware (Spider/Spyder?).
I will bring the B&W Photography magazine with the review to show you.
Thanks Kully,
Rob here (Robert Blu) has the Hp and his prints are really lovely (both color and b/w). I had some of my photos printed on Epson 2400 (not 3800) and I love the results but they have cyan subtle tone...
Thanks Kully,
Rob here (Robert Blu) has the Hp and his prints are really lovely (both color and b/w). I had some of my photos printed on Epson 2400 (not 3800) and I love the results but they have cyan subtle tone...
If you use Advanced Black and White mode on the Epsons such as the 2400 and 3800 you should be able to dial in some warm ink to cancel out the cyan tone (or use a RIP). I have a 7800 and it is slightly green until I tweak it to neutral. Then it's fine.
I've heard recently that some HPs have roller mark issues with thicker papers like the new Harman paper. But I guess this applies to some Epsons as well. Might be worth looking into this if you plan on using heavier paper. I have a HP designjet 130 and it is quite temperamental with respect to the papers it will take, unlike my 2 Epsons.
robert blu
09-26-2007, 04:00
Nico, for your infos the picture you have seen are on the new Harman Matt FB paper, 310 g/sqm. In addition to what Kully says about calibration I think you also need a computer with enough RAM and of course a good monitor...so I suggest increase your budget !
ciao robert
If you use Advanced Black and White mode on the Epsons such as the 2400 and 3800 you should be able to dial in some warm ink to cancel out the cyan tone (or use a RIP). I have a 7800 and it is slightly green until I tweak it to neutral. Then it's fine.
I've heard recently that some HPs have roller mark issues with thicker papers like the new Harman paper. But I guess this applies to some Epsons as well. Might be worth looking into this if you plan on using heavier paper. I have a HP designjet 130 and it is quite temperamental with respect to the papers it will take, unlike my 2 Epsons.
Thanks Mark for the tips.
To be true, I was thinking that photographic printers were unffected by roller mark problem... got to get into this, but the problem is that i also have no idea about the papers I'll use... printing is a completely new world for me...
Nico, for your infos the picture you have seen are on the new Harman Matt FB paper, 310 g/sqm. In addition to what Kully says about calibration I think you also need a computer with enough RAM and of course a good monitor...so I suggest increase your budget !
ciao robert
Gosh!!! Things are getting more difficult than I planned ...
Anyway, calibration and monitor should'nt be a problem, a friend of mine has the tool for and my monitor is quite new ... don't know about the RAM ...
rogue_designer
09-26-2007, 04:14
I believe that the 3800 does not use the color inks when printing BW - at least the set up I was using (printing via rip) was showing no color cast.
Beautiful prints. I'm considering buying one for myself.
I believe that the 3800 does not use the color inks when printing BW - at least the set up I was using (printing via rip) was showing no color cast.
Beautiful prints. I'm considering buying one for myself.
The ABW mode does use colour inks. I believe the 'black' inks are not actually black, but slightly warm in hue. So some cool ink has to be added to the mix to get neutral whether you use ABW or a RIP.
... and what about ink use/costs?
... and what about ink use/costs?
It depends a lot on the printer. The bigger the cartridges they take, generally the cheaper they cost to run. My epson 2100 costs a lot in ink as the carts only hold a small amount of ink (20ml or so I think), but they cost ~£15 each (there are 8 if you include both blacks). You can modify these printers to take larger tanks (called CIS, continuous ink system, or CFS, continuous flow system etc.) This is a lot cheaper, but then you have to use some other manufacturer's ink.
My Epson 7800 carts are huge (hold 220ml of ink) but cost about £50 each. But they last a lot longer and are actually much better value.
The HP designjet I have is the cheapest to run. The 69ml carts last a long time as the printer doesn't run cleaning cycles. Epsons waste a lot of ink almost every time you switch them on because they usually purge a bit of ink through the heads to keep them clean.
Paper is also a wide open area. You can pay anything from £0.10 to £1 or more per A4 size sheet depending on the thickness, quality and archival nature of the materials. Buying in bulk or in rolls is usually cheaper.
Thanks for the inputs Mark, they're very helpful, I have to check what kind of cartridges 9180B and Epson 3800 use...
I just found these links in a italian photo forum, I did not read the articles yet but I think they may be helpful ...
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/HP%20B9180/page-1.htm
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/HP-B9180.shtml
http://www.inkjetart.com/hp/B9180/index.html
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_hp_photosmart_pro_b9180.php
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/WIR_HP_B9180_2006_09_10.pdf
http://www.neilsnape.com/HP9180_review.htm
Ciao :)
rogue_designer
09-26-2007, 12:45
the HP sounds pretty good.
But it can't do those nice 16x20's like the epson. ;)
the HP sounds pretty good. .... ;)
and maybe for a beginner like me is the best tool for the price ...
robert blu
09-26-2007, 13:01
...if you put some files (of course via a good scanner!) on a cd I'll be happy to print a few a4 pic as test. Never tried a3 or a3+. For what i read on a german magazine 3800 epson does not accept rolls (not sufre, my german is primitive!). I'll chek if more quiet during the next wet week end ,
ciao
rob
rogue_designer
09-26-2007, 13:02
and maybe for a beginner like me is the best tool for the price ...
May well be. And you're hardly a beginner.
I admit price is a concern with these rigs. As is your own needs. I happen to like the larger size options available with the 3800... but that only responds to my own needs.
I have yet to see prints from the HP. But by all accounts, you can't really go wrong with either system.
...if you put some files (of course via a good scanner!) on a cd I'll be happy to print a few a4 pic as test. Never tried a3 or a3+. For what i read on a german magazine 3800 epson does not accept rolls (not sufre, my german is primitive!). I'll chek if more quiet during the next wet week end ,
ciao
rob
Hey! you know I have a very good scanner :D!
Thanks for the offer Rob :) I'd be very very glad and thankful!
May well be. And you're hardly a beginner.
I admit price is a concern with these rigs. As is your own needs. I happen to like the larger size options available with the 3800... but that only responds to my own needs.
I have yet to see prints from the HP. But by all accounts, you can't really go wrong with either system.
Thanks :)
yes, I know about the size, but it would not be a problem for me now; A4 size and the price of Hp maybe would suit my learning and training period as digital printer...
The Epson 3800 doesn't take rolls, but does have matte and photo black inks in at the same time. The next up (4800) takes rolls, but you have to switch between matte and photo black ink (costs a lot as the lines have to be purged).
Some people still buy rolls and cut them into sheets themselves.
robert blu
09-26-2007, 14:25
I think all mentioned machines are not bad. Two important things have to be kept in mind:
1 - there will be anyway a learning curve, as in traditional wet darkroom. Do not believe to connect printer and computer, put paper in and have excellent photo. Experience is necessary
2 - in the old times it was said if you like to sell petrol you must give lamps as present ! or in a more photographic language the polaroid marketing: cheap hardware comapre to the cost of material, in this case ink (and paper)
But satisfaction will be great and paying back the efforts, not so sure about paying back the inks...
rob
Adding to Nico's wants(/woes).
Have we any recommendations for colour calibration tools?
Which one are you using Robert?
plummerl
09-26-2007, 14:58
As an owner of a B9180, I will chime in here to report that the output quality (color and especially BW!) is simply stunning. I would highly recommend getting the 3 year next day exchange, extended service plan. Extremely cheap insurance.
Rob and Larry, any comment on ink use?
I know it may change due to the paper used.
Thanks :)
plummerl
09-27-2007, 13:03
I'm not really sure that I can make a meaningful comment on ink usage. I don't really have anything to compare it to, my previous one was a six color (dye) Epson (870). The cartridges are huge by comparison (27ml). So far, it does not seem to be very thirsty. One big bonus is the built-in network interface.
amateriat
09-27-2007, 13:39
Even though I knew of the impending introduction of HP's B9180 at the time, I wound up buying this (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF05a/18972-18972-3328063-15100-3328076-426170.html) instead, and have been thrilled by the print quality, particularly b/w. The big deal here was the printer's three black inks (all used at once in Greyscale mode) and lack of artifacts once the prints are dry. And, when I say "no artifacts", I mean virtually none, under most any kind of lighting. The funny thing is that I initially bought this printer as an "interim" printer to hold me over until I had the bucks, and space, for an Epson 4800 or the like. Still have the 8750, with no complaints so far, and stable, great-looking prints.
Edit: judging from the feedback (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/product_detail.do?storeName=storefronts&landing=printers&category=photosmart_printers&subcat1=&product_code=Q5747A%23ABA&catLevel=2&mc=#reviewBlockHeader) regarding this printer (on HP's site), I'd say it has something of a following, even though it's currently not getting as much press as the B9180. I have a review there as well, under "When You'd Rather Switch Than Fight."
- Barrett
Does the HP rely on the swellable HP papers? My HP designjet only produces archival prints if I buy their HP premium plus paper as well. The technology was designed to combine the ink and paper in combination. If I use other papers they fade rather quickly. The good thing about the Epsons is that you can use lots of different papers, not just Epson's.
Another thing to bear in mind.
plummerl
09-28-2007, 05:38
Does the HP rely on the swellable HP papers? My HP designjet only produces archival prints if I buy their HP premium plus paper as well. The technology was designed to combine the ink and paper in combination. If I use other papers they fade rather quickly. The good thing about the Epsons is that you can use lots of different papers, not just Epson's.
Another thing to bear in mind.
No, you must avoid swellable papers at all costs. The HP paper of choice is the HP Advanced, which has a Wilhem rating of > 200 years. This is the paper supplied for the calibration setup.
robert blu
09-28-2007, 08:55
You should know nico, I am an artist not an account man and I cannot make comments about inks consumption and related cost :D
just kidding, I have no idea also because I m still in the learning curve and did not tried yet an A3 print. I just bought today a A3 box of Harman baryta paper 315 g and still suffering !!! I' ll be very carefull before, when and after printing on it !
My additional suggestion is because printer are special item, in some cases delicated, if possible buy it in a specialized dealer who can if necessary give you tech assistence and not in a general multipurpose electronic shop. But you have some friends who are electronic guru...
ciao, rob
amateriat
09-28-2007, 09:50
No, you must avoid swellable papers at all costs. The HP paper of choice is the HP Advanced, which has a Wilhem rating of > 200 years. This is the paper supplied for the calibration setup. To clarify things a bit: the HP 8750, which I use, uses HP's Vivera archival dye-based inks, and works best with HP's own Premium/Premium Plus (swellable) paper. Most any swellable paper from anyone else can be used, but the combination of these HP papers and inks gets the nod in terms of an official archival rating (also rated by Wilhelm, BTW: >100 years under glass/>200 years for dark storage), though I'm certain other papers are likely just as stable.
The HP B9180, on the other hand, Uses HP's Vivera pigment inks, making it another animal altogether. You'll want to be using anything but a swellable paper. Use HP's Advanced paper, or various other papers of the sort (Hahnemühle Silver Rag being the hot ticket for several people I know).
The paper situation for the 8750 is somewhat more limited; on the other hand, I happen to like the way HP's Premium and Premium Plus papers perform overall, as well as their rated stability.
On ink consumption: the general rule is that printers with relatively large ink tanks are more economical to operate than printers with either small(ish) individual carts of multi-color carts. The B9180 has 8 fairly large ink tanks, with an arrangement not dissimilar to the aftermarket CIS/CFS systems made for printers with small ink carts. This is the first 13" carriage printer designed with such a system. My 8750, by contrast, uses smaller multi-ink carts, but one upside with mine is that ther are 9 inks, including a third black/grey ink, compared to the B9180's two black/grey inks.
- Barrett
You should know nico, I am an artist not an account man and I cannot make comments about inks consumption and related cost :D
Oops, perdono maestro ;)!
My additional suggestion is because printer are special item, in some cases delicated, if possible buy it in a specialized dealer who can if necessary give you tech assistence and not in a general multipurpose electronic shop. But you have some friends who are electronic guru...
ciao, rob
I agree with you, I'd like to avoid great malls so yesterday I went to "Fotoamatore" here in Lucca but they don't sell Hp, just Epson and Canon ...
@Amateriat and Larry may you please help me to understand what a "swellable" paper. :confused: :o thanks a lot ...
plummerl
09-28-2007, 10:09
Nico, Mike Johnson had a fairly good explanation of the difference:
http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/12/b9180-watch-not-so-swell-papers.html
amateriat
09-28-2007, 10:46
@Amateriat and Larry may you please help me to understand what a "swellable" paper. :confused: :o thanks a lot ...
I'll try my best. :)
"Swellable" papers (generally polymers) actually absorb the ink as it is sprayed on by the printer. This works ideally with dye-based inks, whose solution is generally finer than pigment-based inks.
Non-swellable papers, with surfaces and coatings of various kinds (ceramic, clay, baryta, etc.) are designed for inks that coat the surface, but don't penetrate. This tends to be ideal for pigment-based inks.
Dye inks can be used on non-swellable papers, but archival quality is, at best, only fair. Pigment inks generally work badly on swellable papers, tending to run/smear.
There are pros and cons to both approaches, and the above is the most brutally simplistic of descriptions, but I hope it gives you a decent overview
- Barrett
Larry and Barrett, thanks again for being so helpful :)
tucker.john
01-10-2008, 04:08
In my view, inkjet paper quality should be good then only prints look professional.I can assure you that i have got one site which offers good quality photo papers for printing.I just tried the product and i should say that i am quite satisfied with the result.When you print a photo on a high quality inkjet paper your work will really look great, i have been using the product from freephotopaper (http://freephotopaper.com/inkjet_papers.htm) for quite sometime now and it prints beautiful on both the gloss and satin and is less than half the cost of OEM papers.
I bought a 9180 right after they came out. I moved up from an Epson R2200, and I have a close friend using the Epson R2400.... all three pigment inks. For my purposes, mostly color, the 9180 and the R2400 were close in quality.
but my decision to sell the 9180 was not based on any quality evaluation. Two things bothered me on the HP.
Ink cost... the HP had about 50% more ink per cartridge, but at the time the only cartridges were OEM at three times the price of the Epson. I can get Epson cartridges for under $10 OEM, and the lowest price I could find on the HP9180 was $33. Perhaps this has changed.
However, one other thing about the HP bothered me. It has a constant monitoring system on the ink supply, which runs a cleaning cycle (or something similar). I deduce that means the printer takes it upon itself to make sure the jets don't clog. I suspect this means there is a random cycle which uses or flushes some of my very expensive ink.
Now, my understanding is that the 3800 is much better on ink than the R2400 because of larger cartridges.
It's very difficult to make apples to apples comparisons on cost of operation, but I decided to go to the R2400 like my friend has. If I printed more than I do, I would probably look at the 3800 or an external ink supply system.
So, in summary, perhaps some of the posters here can clarify HP 9180 ink costs as the current market, and clear up whether my thoughts about the ink monitoring are faulty, or whether that process can be turned off, and what problems may occur if the system is not cleaning itself occasionally.
My Epson experience is that I (nor my friend) have any clogging issues, and I sometimes do not print for a week or more.
robert blu
01-10-2008, 10:03
For hp9180B, in italy (at least in the city where I live):
black ink and light gray cartridge = EUR 26.00 + 20 % taxes each. In a shop which gives also tech service in case, I guess maybe could be slightly cheaper somewhere else.
Noy yet changed colours, I do not know if same price.
just for your infos.
rob
and the lowest price I could find on the HP9180 was $33. Perhaps this has changed.
I've had the 9180 for almost a year now and $30-ish is about what it always has been. You see them $27-ish on line, but shipping makes up for that.
They don't require replacement very often, fortunately. I still haven't gone through a complete set yet.
I haven't really investigated third-party inks yet.
which runs a cleaning cycle (or something similar). I deduce that means the printer takes it upon itself to make sure the jets don't clog. I suspect this means there is a random cycle which uses or flushes some of my very expensive ink.
I've gone a few weeks at times without any printing, and I can't see any visible lowering of the ink levels due to this.
Every evening, the time seems to vary a bit, it clicks and jukes around for a while, maybe a minute at the longest.
The prints from this printer are awesome, though! :)
However, one other thing about the HP bothered me. It has a constant monitoring system on the ink supply, which runs a cleaning cycle (or something similar). I deduce that means the printer takes it upon itself to make sure the jets don't clog. I suspect this means there is a random cycle which uses or flushes some of my very expensive ink.
If you leave the B9180 powered on (as HP recommends) it does a cycle every 24 hours to keep the nozzles from clogging. As near as I can tell, though, this cycle uses little if any ink.
About three weeks ago I ran a big batch of prints which ran two of the tanks down to the last possible mark before "empty." Since then I haven't printed anything, but the printer has been doing its cycle every 24 hours. The two ink tanks still show the same level they did three weeks ago.
I'm sure this process does use a certain tiny amount of ink, but keep in mind that if you try to print with clogged nozzles you will waste both ink (on a cleaning cycle) and paper (on a spoiled print.) So, I think HP's approach is a good one. If you want to avoid the cleaning cycle and are willing to accept the risk of clogs, you can simply power off the printer between uses.
robert blu
01-10-2008, 14:24
Beside the cleaning leaving the 9180B powered gives some electricity to the inks which are electrostic charged. This prevent possible phenomenon like settlement in the cartridge without needs to have very thick inks. Having lower viscosity inks there is less risk to clog nozzles.
Explanation is a little primitive but my english is not good enough to explainwith more details, hope you understand.
Thanks for the tips on prices Rob!
Jim Watts
02-09-2008, 03:36
I am also about to upgrade my old dye printer to probably either HP B9180 or Epson 3800 (or possibly just the 2400). I have heard that the B9180 has greater 'bronzing', gloss differential problems, than the Epson's. Is this the case?
I tend to favour Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl for general printing and one of the Baryta papers, Harman, Da Vinci or Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk, for better quality. Does anyone have experience of these papers with the B9180? I had printed a couple of prints made with Da Vinci paper on the HPZ3100 and while there was not 'bronzing' as such, there was some 'piting' to the gloss surface (gloss enhancer on) that was eliminated with a coat of UV spray. Otherwise the quality was superb, but I don't have the room even if I could afford it.
robert blu
02-09-2008, 14:10
I m very satisfied with B&W print of my HP 9180B on Harman Matt fb mp paper 310 gsm ; Ilford smooth pearl (290 gsm) I find ok for colours, not yet satisfied with B&W . Maybe I should try different settings or profile. Very good results on Epson Matt heavyweight . Are you printing B&W or colours?
rob
amateriat
02-09-2008, 19:06
One factor to take in regarding cartridge size and print yield: at least in the case of my HP 8750, the print monitor keeps tabs on relative inks supply (as does Epson; these indicators are estimates, not based on actual measurement of remaining ink in the carts), and will give me a heads-up when ink was running low, but, unlike Epson, will allow you to run the carts till they're dry, whereas Epson will put the brakes on printing activity when any one cart hits a certain low-ink "threshold." This has to do with the fact that the print heads in all Epson printers are permanent, and rely on having a constant "flow" of ink for proper operation; run any of those heads dry and you run the risk of damaging them. (Next time you have to change a cart, take an "empty" cart and shake it around in your hand; you'll definintely hear some serious sloshing about in there, meaning there's a lot more than just a few drops left over when the show comes to a screeching halt. (I had an Epson 2200 for a little under two years.)
Running the numbers is an important factor in choosing a printer, but it's hardly the only one.
- Barrett
Jim Watts
02-11-2008, 03:15
I m very satisfied with B&W print of my HP 9180B on Harman Matt fb mp paper 310 gsm ; Ilford smooth pearl (290 gsm) I find ok for colours, not yet satisfied with B&W . Maybe I should try different settings or profile. Very good results on Epson Matt heavyweight . Are you printing B&W or colours?
rob
I print both colour and B & W, but the real reason for upgrading my present printer is the better B & W results from these printers. On the whole I tend to prefer gloss or semigloss papers (the closer to traditional fibre base gloss the better for me) to matt, although the 'bronzing' I was asking about can be a problem. Whats this issue like with the Ilford Smooth Pearl on your B9180.
Ilford have printer profiles for this paper on their web site, but I haven't checked for the B9180.
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